S03.E08: The Botanic Garden

[Cranberry]

Quote

Lyra and Will reunite with Mary and hear a story that changes everything. Now they must decide what they are willing to sacrifice if they are to save the worlds.

Original air date: December 18, 2022 (BBC iPlayer); December 26, 2022 (HBO); February 5, 2023 (BBC One).

[Cranberry]

I think my only (minor) gripe with this episode was that the cuts between the Will/Lyra and Serafina and Xaphania conversations were abrupt -- Serafina especially, as she was just suddenly there and talking to Lyra without even a hello. I also wasn't as impressed with Kirjava's CGI as I have been with all the other animals (and I think she could have been prettier/more of a tortoiseshell cat, befitting her name). Oh, and I really wish Lyra had fed Will one of the berries -- they were right there and there's that whole Bible symbolism thing (plus the callback to Mary's marzipan story).

The rest, though... perfect. I loved hearing Mary's story out loud (and they made the person in her story a woman, which I was not expecting but which added another level to the idea of losing faith in church teachings). Pan's marten form has always been my favorite, so I'm glad he settled that way. I'm glad we got to see Mary's Alpine chough daemon. I loved seeing more of the mulefa. I'm glad Serafina explained that while Lyra had lost the ability to intuitively read the alethiometer, she could learn again. I thought Lyra and Will's feelings rang true, felt that the kids absolutely killed all their emotional scenes, and found the ending just as sad as when I first read it.

I feel like this season in general had much better writing than the first couple. If this team wants to make The Book of Dust trilogy in the future, I'll be there.

[PinkRibbons]

I would be a poor HDM fan if I didn't mention that the bench at the Botanical Gardens is a real place, and at the moment has a sculpture of Pan and Kirjava sitting behind it. I don't know if it's still there, but I've more than once seen pics where someone has carved "Lyra + Will" into the bench itself.

[PurpleTentacle]

Well this was a horrible ending. None of my questions from last episode were answered, but mainly this whole thing revolves around the romantic love between Will and Lyra? *gags* Maybe if these two had even a shred of romantic chemistry... but they do not. I really liked them as friends, but as lovers I don't buy them for a second.

Also none if this makes any sense to me. Why does the knife need to be broken for windows to be closed? That wasn't ever a requirement before. The knife cuts windows, but it doesn't hold them open, as far as I can tell. How would it do that? Also we've Will close countless windows.

The knife was also broken before. Can you break it, close the windows and then reforge it?

Do intention crafts still work and do they also let dust out of the universe?

Why is the prison world of the dead still a thing? I thought that was the authority perverting the nature of dust. Shouldn't that be gone with the authority being gone? Or is that perversion permanent. But even if it is, can't angels fix it? I mean an angel made it.

The explaination why Lyra could read the alethiometer and can't anymore has to be the dumbest YA-crap I ever heard.

Sciene-nun was completely useless. I guess if you think the love-ending has any merit, she had some use, but even then very, very little. That they lampshaded it doesn't change that. We spent way too much time on her for what she actually brought to the story.

Did Will leave a rift open again for the magisterium asshole to follow them? How very convenient that Will usually is very meticulous about closing rifts, but always leaves them open when it's important for the plot. Like earlier this season.

I wish last week would have just been the finale, because this ruined a lot for me.

[Cranberry]

I wonder if you'd like the books. I can't imagine watching this show without having read them (and I don't mean "I don't know why anyone would do that"; I mean I literally can't even begin to imagine what I would have thought of the show if I didn't have all my book knowledge giving so much more context to things). A lot of this stuff made sense in the books, but I won't get into it in this thread because of the no book talk rule. I'm sure there will be more discussion in the books vs. show thread as more people finish.

[PurpleTentacle]

On 12/20/2022 at 6:57 PM, Cranberry said:

I wonder if you'd like the books.

I think it would be easier to accept Lyra and Will as a romantic couple reading the books. I really like these actors but they have negative romantic chemistry. But even then, I'd probably be annoyed. I don't like the trope in media that at the end all the friends have to become romantic couples. It's also (part of) why I hate the ending to the Breakfast Club.

I also don't get why their love is supposedly so epic that it reverses the flow of dust. Previously it was stated that dust is attracted to knowledge and discovery, not epic love stories. Sure, they discovered love for the first time, but so do Millions of people every day.

Also there are 8 billion people in this world alone now as opposed to 1 billion in 1800 (I think the knife was forged before than). So the influx of 7 billion people, who all learn and discover things was not enough to reverse the flow of dust, but two teenagers falling in love was? That is just nauseating.

I guess I'll copy my questions into the book thread at some point, but I'm very disappointed that I have to. This wasn't a movie with limited time. This was a show with 23 hour long episodes. That should be more than enough to explain things. Especially since about half of season 2 and all of science-nun could have been cut and you wouldn't have lost anything.

[aghst]

Last two episodes did seem a bit sentimental.

Asriel and Marisa sacrifice to save Will and Lyra and the others.

Balthamos apparently sacrifices himself because when he crushed Father Gomez' daemon, he distengrated.

And of course the greatest sacrifice is suppose to be Will and Lyra going back to their respective worlds, living the rest of their lives separately, so that the multiverse could heal.

Maybe in the books, the notion of giving one's life or making sacrifices for the sake of others is rendered less sentimentally.

I'm sure this notion of sacrifice is grander in the books and presumably different from religion since much of the series was about taking down religion, while christianity spreads the notion of the son of God making the greatest sacrifice, to save all of humanity.

They showed what is suppose to be an epic battle but in the end, personal sacrifices delivered the victory?

Good story but a lot of the world-building was conveyed through the visuals, all these different places or landscape shots denoting worlds alien from each other.

Visual effects weren't limited to landscapes though.  The monkey in its final scene showed pathos, regret, very memorable image.

The epilogue suggests there could be more books featuring Lyra and Pan but if I'm not mistaken, these books were written a long time ago and there haven't been any sequels.

[Bill1978]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

The epilogue suggests there could be more books featuring Lyra and Pan but if I'm not mistaken, these books were written a long time ago and there haven't been any sequels.

Pullman is currently in the process of completing a new trilogy set in this world, with the trilogy called The Book of Dust. 2 books have been released so far - Le Belle Sauvage which acts as a prequel to Northern Lights (or The Golden Compass) and explains how baby Lyra ends up at Oxford College. And The Secret Commonwealth which acts a sequel to The Amber Spyglass and features Lyra as a 20-year-old undergraduate. He is in the process of completing the third unnamed book.

He has also written some prequel/sequel novellas that expands the story of His Dark Materials - Lyra's Oxford (set 2 years after The Amber Spyglass), Once Upon A Time In The North (which covers the meeting of Iorek Byrnison and Lee Scoresby) and Serpentine (which is set between The Amber Spyglass and The Secret Commonwealth)

[aghst]

That's great to hear.

Don't know if we'll get adaptations of those.  Maybe HDM is more popular in the UK.

If Harry Potter can get all those movies made, why not this series?

[bluvelvet]

Emotional ending but hated that they had to be apart.  I read the book over 15 years ago so I forgot a lot. 

I did like Lyra bringing up "if we meet someone, we should be kind and not compare" because really they are young and as we all know, they will fall in love again. You move on from your first love.

How long was Will gone? Was it years and why didn't his Daemon get reabsorbed since he is back in his world?

That ending with them coming back to the bench got to me *sniff*

[Cranberry]

1 hour ago, bluvelvet said:

How long was Will gone? Was it years and why didn't his Daemon get reabsorbed since he is back in his world?

Once a daemon is out, it's out! Pan existed outside Lyra when they were in Will's world (and the other worlds without daemons), as well.

Mary's I'm less sure about. You can see it flying ahead of her and Will in their world, but I'm not sure if that's from Mary's perspective or if it's meant to be real. In the book:

Spoiler

Mary could see her Alpine chough daemon if she held the state of mind she'd used to speak to the Shadows, but it wasn't separate from her/visible to others like Pan and Kirjava were.

 

[Tachi Rocinante]

Meh.  Last ep was better - they could've summarized this episode in text at the end of it.

So what became of the Magisterium? Did I miss something?

 

 

[Affogato]

45 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Meh.  Last ep was better - they could've summarized this episode in text at the end of it.

So what became of the Magisterium? Did I miss something?

 

 

There are sequels, so more world building, some of it after this story. I assume that the different religious organizations on different worlds aren't going to disappear as if they never happened.

[Tachi Rocinante]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

There are sequels, so more world building, some of it after this story. I assume that the different religious organizations on different worlds aren't going to disappear as if they never happened.

Kinda my point, I guess.  They showed the two of then sitting on the bench year after year.  The Magesterium didn't send anyone after them? Did it dissolve?

Also, why couldn't Will just be responsible, keep the knife, and have an annual tryst? The amount of dust and spectre seepage from them jumping though and closing it quickly couldn't be that bad . . .

[HappyHanna]

On 12/23/2022 at 5:23 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

I think it would be easier to accept Lyra and Will as a romantic couple reading the books. I really like these actors but they have negative romantic chemistry. But even then, I'd probably be annoyed. I don't like the trope in media that at the end all the friends have to become romantic couples. It's also (part of) why I hate the ending to the Breakfast Club.

I also don't get why their love is supposedly so epic that it reverses the flow of dust. Previously it was stated that dust is attracted to knowledge and discovery, not epic love stories. Sure, they discovered love for the first time, but so do Millions of people every day.

So much this. Lyra and Will had zero chemistry, plus the actors may be late teens, but aren't the characters like THIRTEEN YEARS OLD?!  So two CHILDREN making out is the love that saves the world. UGH UGH UGH. 

[Bill1978]

Not going to lie, it was worth waiting nearly 15 years to see the conclusion of a story I first discovered through The Golden Compass movie. And to be honest, I am glad that I saw the story end through a TV series and not a movie series. It was so nice to experience a near hour long epilogue. In movies, we generally get the big battle and then the story gets its little nicely tied bow in a 15-minute segment that usually causes whiplash as you move from character to character. Was the storytelling perfect? No, I mean I'm not sure why Balthamos died after killing Father Gomez. I can wave it away by saying he had no purpose to exist after saving Lyra's life and chose to join Baruch but it the way it was presented it was like he was punished for killing Gomez's daemon. (Sidenote: My closed captions confused me as it kept referring to the insect drone as Gomez's daemon and then suddenly his daemon is sitting on his shoulder as a spider)

And even though I knew the end game for Lyra and Will (I had read the book summaries on Wikipedia years ago), I was still emotional at them having to make the very grown-up decision to separate permanently so the multiverse could exist. And I know some people found their love sudden and just a plot point, but there were tiny little moments in season 2 and earlier this season that the pair were feeling a little bit more than friendship in their relationship. It just took Mary's story for them to realise exactly what they were feeling for one another. The facial expression from the actors, Amir and Dafne, while that story really showed me what Will and Lyra were thinking and feeling.

On 12/19/2022 at 3:14 PM, Cranberry said:

Oh, and I really wish Lyra had fed Will one of the berries -- they were right there and there's that whole Bible symbolism thing (plus the callback to Mary's marzipan story).

I didn't mind them not going this path. From my understanding it happens in the book, but I don't know there was something nice about them not being so blunt about the Eve symbolism in that scene. I also like that Mary wasn't aware that her story was the temptation needed for the prophecy to come true. She was just being honest in her storytelling.

And just when I thought I was done being all emotional as Will and Lyra said goodbye, they had to do the whole montage of them visiting the bench over the years. Being so close but also so far apart. I love the bittersweet ending we got. You very rarely see that in stories promoted as children/young adult.

While the series wasn't perfect, I admit at times it was travelling slow, the fact it hit me with an emotional punch at the conclusion shows that I was invested in the story and cared about what was happening. I'm not sure the last time a TV series got me so emotional - possibly 13 Reasons Why? Usually, it's movies that kick me in the gut not television shows. And I also know that I've enjoyed watching a TV series/movie when I have an urge to relive the story through its score. Which is what I've been doing since I view this episode. I have got to give credit to Lorne Balfe for creating a great musical landscape for this series.

Also need to give praise to the visual effects crew working on the daemons. Again, they showed just how much emotion you can give an animal, while keeping them looking and behaving realistically. Guessing these people didn't work on that 'live action' remake of Disney's The Lion King.

I liked the little postscript about what happened to Lyra and Will, almost made it feel like what I watched was based on true story.

And a little random experience I had in the opening credits, I felt sad not seeing Ruth Wilson's name at the start but did not care that I didn't see James McAvoy. That's how much my opinion of Mrs. Coulter changed over the course of the 3 seasons.

I have re-added the book series to my To Read List. Let's see if I get around to reading it.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Bill1978

[Quark]

My favourite aspect of this show was easily the music. Absolutely stunning.

The scenery was pretty beautiful too.

Ruth Wilson was phenomenal as Mrs Coulter.

[Beatriceblake]

I love the books but this felt like a tricky ending to the TV series because half of the episode is Lyra and Will being sad about parting. I almost wish they had stuck to the book ending a little bit more and had Lyra talking to Dame Hannah and the Master of Jordan College about her experiences and plans.

On 12/31/2022 at 12:10 AM, Bill1978 said:

I liked the little postscript about what happened to Lyra and Will, almost made it feel like what I watched was based on true story.

I was all "what is this, the finale episode of Bake Off?" ;-)

Edited January 2, 2023 by Beatriceblake

[Black Knight]

On 12/29/2022 at 4:13 PM, Tachi Rocinante said:

Also, why couldn't Will just be responsible, keep the knife, and have an annual tryst? The amount of dust and spectre seepage from them jumping though and closing it quickly couldn't be that bad . . .

It was said that it's the opening of the window that creates a spectre, and spectres are soul-suckers. Nor is a spectre confined to eating only one soul. How many souls would ultimately be consumed for the sake of even one tryst? Not worth it.

On 12/20/2022 at 12:40 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

Also none if this makes any sense to me. Why does the knife need to be broken for windows to be closed? That wasn't ever a requirement before. The knife cuts windows, but it doesn't hold them open, as far as I can tell. How would it do that? Also we've Will close countless windows.

The knife was also broken before. Can you break it, close the windows and then reforge it?

It was said that there were many knife-bearers before Will. Will was careful about closing windows, but others weren't. My take was that only the Knife Bearer can close windows, while the knife is in existence. But when the knife is broken, there isn't a Knife Bearer, because there's no knife. So the breaking of the knife meant angels could now close existing windows. And while the knife could be reforged, I figure the pieces will be dumped in the trash, and even if someone did come into possession of all the pieces, they wouldn't know there's any point to reforging them into a knife, nor how to go about doing that correctly. There's no shortage of knives.

It was a bit of a jolt not to see Ruth Wilson's name in the opening credits.

I liked the conversation between Will and Lyra about her parents - what it was that she sensed or thought, how she felt about them, how much she doesn't know or understand about their lives and choices. And crucially she doesn't know that they didn't get deaths, they got fates worse than death. One thing that's so interesting about this series is how it resisted the temptation to give Lyra and her parents real final scenes between them before the latter went off to their eternal limbo. Lyra and Asriel never even saw each other again after the S1 finale. And while Mrs. Coulter sent her daemon to Lyra, their last actual conversation wasn't so much a conversation as Lyra fleeing her mother.

Mary Malone's story was well done, and I liked the twist of her love having been a woman. It really added layers. I'm glad she got to see her daemon. Speaking of, I already liked Will, but nothing could have endeared me to him more than learning his daemon is a cat. (I found the chemistry between the actors credible romantic chemistry and I do think the show had been indicating for a while that that's where things were going.) And at least he gets to keep his daemon with him, and reunite with his mother. I felt for Lyra; she got back with Pan, but otherwise it felt lonely on her end of things with Will and Mary off to their world and Roger of course gone. I wish they had at least shown her being welcomed back to Oxford by the Master of Jordan College (unless the actor has passed away).

One tidbit about the captions: When someone was speaking off-camera, the captions would include the full name of the speaker, e.g. Will Parry, Roger Parslow...but with Lyra, it was "Lyra Silvertongue," not "Lyra Belacqua."

[PurpleTentacle]

9 hours ago, Black Knight said:

It was said that there were many knife-bearers before Will. Will was careful about closing windows, but others weren't. My take was that only the Knife Bearer can close windows, while the knife is in existence. But when the knife is broken, there isn't a Knife Bearer, because there's no knife. So the breaking of the knife meant angels could now close existing windows. And while the knife could be reforged, I figure the pieces will be dumped in the trash, and even if someone did come into possession of all the pieces, they wouldn't know there's any point to reforging them into a knife, nor how to go about doing that correctly. There's no shortage of knives.

Why would angels be able to close the windows if the knife is broken, when they can't while it's still whole? Makes no sense.

Also even if it has to be broken for some weird reason, that the show should really have explained, they could break it, the angels could close the windows and afterwards they could reforge it, so Will and Lyra could visit each other. Having an extra window open for 5 seconds isn't going to break the universe.

[NJRadioGuy]

That was truly disappointing. The HBO series finale curse strikes again (see Game of Thrones and The Sopranos). Too many unanswered questions and everything this season just felt rushed and way out of balance. Glad it's over.

[Niuxita]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:57 PM, Cranberry said:

I can't imagine watching this show without having read them (and I don't mean "I don't know why anyone would do that"; I mean I literally can't even begin to imagine what I would have thought of the show if I didn't have all my book knowledge giving so much more context to things).

I watched this show having only read the first book easily 15 years ago (so basically remembering nothing) precisely because I liked what I remembered of the concept and having the story told to me in TV show format was easier than reading it, and I absolutely loved the whole series. I didn't need any extra context to understand things better, and, having just finished watching this episode, this one and the previous one might be my favourites from the amount of emotion they made me feel. I was still reeling from Mrs Coulter's death like two days after watching the episode, and Lyra and Will slowly having to come to terms in this episode with the fact that they would have to be apart for the rest of their lives packed more than a punch than I thought it would for me considering that I had previously enjoyed them more as BFFs. Of course, 90% of that was the actors absolutely NAILING it, but it also rings true for me that whole thing where you "flick a switch" and suddenly you realize that someone who was just your friend is the only person you can see yourself with, so I didn't have a problem with the abruptness of the change in the nature of their relationship (also, as others have said, there were hints to that in earlier episodes).

I was also super happy that Mary's great love that changed everything for Lyra and Will was a woman. I had been secretly hoping she'd be gay since we met her in season 2, so I'll take it!