Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[PixiePaws1]

I pretty much laugh at how in denial some of the fandom are..

I think they are hilarious! Sometimes I amuse myself choosing the most twisted delusional comments. ...

but if I ever show signs of being as deluded as some of those really rabid SQ fans then feel free to take me to the vet and have me put down!

[october]

There's something about it all that makes me a little sad though. In the Captain Swan tags and even here in the spoilers thread there's a lot of talk about how happy Emma is when she's with Hook and how much he's in her corner, supporting her as best he can. Someone on Tumblr wrote that above all they ship Emma with happiness. Those CS fans aren't just happy Emma is with Hook; they're happy she's well... happy.

 

But take a look at the Swan Queen side of things and there's little to no talk of Emma's happiness or well-being. They're actively rooting for it all to be a lie and for Emma to be manipulating Hook as the Dark One for some reason (even though we see enough of Emma's personal plight in Camelot to know that she's actively fighting the darkness at that point).

 

There have been ships I've passionately disliked. I grew to loathe Cristina and Owen's relationship on Grey's Anatomy for example. Owen was the fictional character I hated the most before Regina overtook him in S4 of OUAT. That should give you an idea of how much I despised him. But when Owen did something nice for Cristina I acknowledged it and liked it, even as I thought they should divorce, because I cared about Cristina and wanted to see her treated well even if it's by a character I thought was trash.

 

But to these particular SQ fans Hook's gestures and efforts are worth less than nothing. They're picking and choosing facial expressions from the sneak peek as if to reassure themselves that Emma is actually miserable the entire time.

And if you've watched the sneak peek you'd know what stretch that is considering JMO's performance and how much Emma is smiling.

I've had the impression for a while that some of these hardcore swen don't care about Emma for her own sake, seeing her only as a thing Regina must have. But this really cements it. Emma's happiness doesn't matter, or doesn't even exist, unless she's with Regina.

[PixiePaws1]

There's something about it all that makes me a little sad though.

But take a look at the Swan Queen side of things and there's little to no talk of Emma's happiness....

But to these particular SQ fans Hook's gestures and efforts are worth less than nothing. They're picking and choosing facial expressions from the sneak peek as if to reassure themselves that Emma is actually miserable the entire time.I've had the impression for a while that some of these hardcore swen don't care about Emma for her own sake, seeing her only as a thing Regina must have. But this really cements it. Emma's happiness doesn't matter, or doesn't even exist, unless she's with Regina.

Yes it is a sad that this the side of their psyches they show to the virtual world. The thing is. ..I don't need them or anyone else to agree with me. I am enjoying watching a damaged Emma get the unconditional love and support she so richly deserves. I can laugh at the idiots because they have no power to take that enjoyment away from me and clearly Emma (in the odd quiet moment) enjoys it, too.

[october]

Yes it is a sad that this the side of their psyches they show to the virtual world. The thing is. ..I don't need them or anyone else to agree with me. I am enjoying watching a damaged Emma get the unconditional love and support she so richly deserves. I can laugh at the idiots because they have no power to take that enjoyment away from me and clearly Emma (in the odd quiet moment) enjoys it, too.

 

Good for you. But this creepy pattern of Emma as a prop, not a person, keeps rearing its head in parts of the fandom and that interests me as a fan of the show and someone who keeps an eye on the treatment of female characters by fandom. Since this is the fandom thread it's the place I wanted to bring it up. It doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the show in the slightest, but the topic does matter to me.

Edited November 6, 2015 by october

[PixiePaws1]

Good heavens...I would never dismiss you or your feelings or your concerns. All of which are valid and demonstrate what a kind soul you are. I apologise if you thought that was what I was getting at.

[Curio]

But take a look at the Swan Queen side of things and there's little to no talk of Emma's happiness or well-being. They're actively rooting for it all to be a lie and for Emma to be manipulating Hook as the Dark One for some reason (even though we see enough of Emma's personal plight in Camelot to know that she's actively fighting the darkness at that point).

 

Considering there's usually at least one moment in each episode that shows happiness or hope, I don't think it's a spoiler to say that the sneak peek for the new episode this week shows a few characters being happy. Jane Espenson (who wrote the episode) posted this tweet after seeing a majority of the comments in her feed about the sneak peek were surprisingly positive:

Jane Espenson 8:04 PM - 5 Nov 2015: Wow!  Seeing so much #OnceUponATime love on Twitter tonight!  So much positivity makes me grin!  Hoping you love Sunday's ep!

So of course, a SQ poster tries to rally the troops and encourages others in the fandom to send hate to A&E instead, because clearly Jane isn't letting their negativity get to her:

mel35

Only CS and OQ positive messages in her TL, as you can see.

Since she is not interested in critics, remember to not send them to her, but to her bosses. ;)

If you really have to tell her something, use a new account so you’re sure you’re not muted. I wouldn’t do a new account to talk to somebody who isn’t interested in what we think…But that’s just me.

But no, of course the SQ fandom is always the victim and they never spread hate...

Edited November 6, 2015 by Curio

[Mari]

How is that second quote not abusive? How can the person type things like"use a new account so you don't get muted" and still think of themselves as a victim?

Being so aggressive would be one thing if the show had done something truly beyond the pale, but writing a relationship between two consenting adults is not a horrific thing--even if you do wish other relationships were canon.

[Serena]

I find that super interesting. "Since she is not interested in critics, remember to not send them to her, but to her bosses. ;)" - so, the old saying "don't feed the trolls" may actually work?

It could be true. I mean, if Adam since the beginning had pretended to only see the positive/not responded to the negative, people wouldn't go to him all the time with complains. Some of which are valid, but none of which should be addressed on Twitter.

[mjgchick]

Jane is awesome for that. I just don't get why they think this tactic would work. Its not the CW. I'm more sure that the writers are ignoring them even more because they found out its not LGBTQ they want. They just want a ship where Emma is a doormat to their psycho queen.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm more sure that the writers are ignoring them even more because they found out its not LGBTQ they want.

 

A lot of us don't write the show, and we knew this isn't what they wanted. They talk about representation, but the couple that's going to be tied to the story they've been "clamoring" for is not the couple they want, so they don't give a shit about it, and are vile about it as a bonus, because who doesn't like a good dose of vitriol with their morning coffee.

[legaleagle53]

Considering there's usually at least one moment in each episode that shows happiness or hope, I don't think it's a spoiler to say that the sneak peek for the new episode this week shows a few characters being happy. Jane Espenson (who wrote the episode) posted this tweet after seeing a majority of the comments in her feed about the sneak peek were surprisingly positive:

So of course, a SQ poster tries to rally the troops and encourages others in the fandom to send hate to A&E instead, because clearly Jane isn't letting their negativity get to her:

But no, of course the SQ fandom is always the victim and they never spread hate...

 

In other words, they're true disciples of Regina.

[sharky]

A lot of us don't write the show, and we knew this isn't what they wanted. They talk about representation, but the couple that's going to be tied to the story they've been "clamoring" for is not the couple they want, so they don't give a shit about it, and are vile about it as a bonus, because who doesn't like a good dose of vitriol with their morning coffee.

Well, and just to clarify, it's not really about the couple they want. It's about the character they want. They want Regina to have a lesbian relationship because it's all about Regina. Emma is just the stand in. I mean, look at the Swan Queen responses to these preview clips. Did anyone mention Regina and Robin holding hands in a booth together? Nope. But a kiss between CS and they're all up in arms about how Emma is just stringing Hook along and he's just a dumb puppy and she's going to totally dump his ass for Regina. And yet nothing about Regina. Not surprising, of course.

[maryle]

I agree with almost everything but for me what cimented that Emma was just a prop to Regina( the Queen) was to see them diminish any claim that Emma was also saving others than Regina in the final.

They still prefer to bash the actress ( such an unprofessionnal person, not caring about her job as the lead) than to accept what Jen, Snow... said to focus only Emma sacrifice herself for Regina solely narrative.

But this narrative is so clearly at the disadvantage of how heroic Emma action was at the moment. Dismissing her biggest moment since the season 1 final maybe.

I do believe the heroic aspect of the action from Emma is the primordial reason why Jen kept her (she save every one) that more than anything about CS or SQ.

But, yep they only care about Emma or Jen when that fit their twist view of their own narrative. For what I saw of them I mostly do not go near them and never on twitter.

[mjgchick]

They hate Emma/Jen so much because she refuses to amuse them also.

[Camera One]

I guess Adam is on break tonight, so Jane is placating the masses.

 

Vanessa ‏@Ness202210  2h Paris, Ile-de-France
@JaneEspenson your ship it's #CaptainSwan, #OutlawQueen,#Snowing or  #Rumbelle ?

 

Jane Espenson ‏@JaneEspenson  2h2 hours ago
@Ness202210 I love all the relationships on our show.  And you left out #SwanQueen.  But tonight is all about #Nimlin.

[mjgchick]

Ohh she's a smooth one.

I think she also missed the Savior Wizard.:) Emma knows how to make friends. I hope this is one who doesn't screw her over...as much.

[sharky]

Jane's answer impressed me. If only Adam could be so diplomatic. And you know what I just realized? Scott Nimerfro hasn't written one episode this season and has been really quiet on Twitter. Did someone actually have a talk with him? I mean, that guy was a shit stirrer and now nothing. Of course, I just checked his Twitter feed. He hasn't posted anything since June and I didn't notice until now. Oh well.

[Mari]

Nimerfro! Nimerfro! Nimer--

Oh, wait. I'm perfectly fine with him living quietly and not sharing with us.

:)

[sharky]

I'm sorry. My bad. From now I'll make sure to just refer to him as The Write Who Shall Not Be Named. Ah, that actually feels better. :)

[Souris]

I have a suspicion that either he or a family member is ill. His last two Twitter posts were about cancer research. He's still listed as a co-executive producer on the show.

[Selina K]

I guess Adam is on break tonight, so Jane is placating the masses.

 

Vanessa ‏@Ness202210  2h Paris, Ile-de-France

@JaneEspenson your ship it's #CaptainSwan, #OutlawQueen,#Snowing or  #Rumbelle ?

 

Jane Espenson ‏@JaneEspenson  2h2 hours ago

@Ness202210 I love all the relationships on our show.  And you left out #SwanQueen.  But tonight is all about #Nimlin.

 

I really hope someone replied to her and said, "Oh, no, I was only listing out CANON ships."

[Curio]

I really hope someone replied to her and said, "Oh, no, I was only listing out CANON ships."

 

They kind of did...

@rumbellegirl: @JaneEspenson if u include SQ shouldn't u include SnowQueen or Captain charming? Since we are just talking things people ship & not cannon?

@JaneEspenson: @rumbellegirl I could get behind CaptainCharming. I love noncanon and not-yet-canon and friendship pairings -- a show should be open to all.

I just wish Jane officially put the obvious, flashing neon sign into the ground and clarified that SQ will only ever be a friendship pairing. (Which is incredibly generous considering how poorly they've developed that "friendship.")

Edited November 9, 2015 by Curio

[pezgirl7]

I hate that she has to be so diplomatic. It just comes across as pandering to me. No one likes ALL ships.

[Mari]

She did kind of open herself up to a mess by replying in a way that added ships to the original tweet.  It might've been better to respond something like "Who can pick just one?" or ignoring it.

[FierceAfroChick]

I think it’s hilarious that some fans are pissed about the show having too much Captain Swan.  I mean, character focus on TV shows is cyclical IMO.  Throughout the season, OUAT has focused heavily on one couple/character or another.  So after heavy periods of Snowing (S1), Regina and Rumple (Mr-Everything-To-Everybody), some in the fandom are bitching about “Once Upon A Captain Swan”?  Isn’t Emma the protagonist of the show?  We haven’t even had nearly the number of centrics as Regina, Snowing, Rumbelle or Rumple have had, but let a portion of a season of the show focus on Emma and her first real love story (because really, Graham/Neal/Walsh were just plot devices) and now all of a sudden the show is too much of one couple.  

 

Must stay away from social media.

[Curio]

I think it’s hilarious that some fans are pissed about the show having too much Captain Swan. I mean, character focus on TV shows is cyclical IMO.

 

It appears these people have very short memories, because I remember 4B being all about the Regina/Emma Show, and 4A being the Emma/Frozen Show, and 3B being the Regina/Zelena Show. Like you said, character pairings on this show always seem to go in cycles. (And the funny thing is that Captain Swan hasn't even had that much screen time together this season. It just appears like more because the few scenes they get together are just really really good quality.)

[FierceAfroChick]

It appears these people have very short memories, because I remember 4B being all about the Regina/Emma Show, and 4A being the Emma/Frozen Show, and 3B being the Regina/Zelena Show. Like you said, character pairings on this show always seem to go in cycles. (And the funny thing is that Captain Swan hasn't even had that much screen time together this season. It just appears like more because the few scenes they get together are just really really good quality.)

 

Exactly!  I hope the Captain Swan focus is doubled during 5B, if only to make the haters more miserable.

Edited November 9, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[HoodlumSheep]

It's hardly that Captain Swan show. I just shake my head. Some anti's considered last night's episode a CS episode. They had one scene together. One. And it was at the beginning of the episode.

[Mari]

I wonder if some it doesn't boil down to quality.

A lot of the other characters have been given screen time, but a lot of it has been repetitive or ridiculous. If I were a Rumbelle fan, I'd be annoyed, because even when they get screen time together, it's usually a variation of about three different scenes they have every time they're onscreen together. If I were an Outlaw Queen fan, I'd be frustrated because they got baby green, adulterous crypt sex, and poor imitations of CS and Snowing scenes. If I were a Swan Queen fan, I'd be upset because they're not getting many scenes together, and Emma's pretty firmly attached to Hook. As for poor Snowing fans and people watching for the Charming family? (Ignore my bitter, bitter laugh.)

Captain Swan not only is getting more airtime than usual, but what they're getting is often the best (imo) written part of the show--interesting, intense, and romantic.

No wonder some of the nonCS parts of the fandom are resentful.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Mari

[Stuffy]

Well how can you take any anti-group seriously when they're biased towards other characters and/or actors.  I'm pro-charmings and biased against Regina, so her arcs always feel like they last forever.  Also one of the times "once upon a hook"  trended came during a three episode span when he had less than ten minutes of screen time combined.  

Edited November 9, 2015 by Stuffy

[Mathius]

The "stop Once Upon a Hook" trend is ridiculous. In both season 3 and 4, his screentime was equal to or less than Snowing's, and below Emma and Regina's, and his actual role in the plot was never as big as his haters made it out to be (3B was probably the biggest role he got. His role in Neverland was no better or worse than any of the other Nevengers, his role in 4A was less than Emma's and the Frozen characters and was notorious for its lack of payoff, and he was practically a background character for the majority 4B save for his centric and the finale.)

[FierceAfroChick]

I wonder if some it doesn't boil down to quality.

A lot of the other characters have been given screen time, but a lot of it has been repetitive or ridiculous. If I were a Rumbelle fan, I'd be annoyed, because even when they get screen time together, it's usually a variation of about three different scenes they have every time they're onscreen together. If I were an Outlaw Queen fan, I'd be frustrated because they got baby green, adulterous crypt sex, and poor imitations of CS and Snowing scenes. If I were a Swan Queen fan, I'd be upset because they're not getting many scenes together, and Emma's pretty firmly attached to Hook. As for poor Snowing fans and people watching for the Charming family? (Ignore my bitter, bitter laugh.)

Captain Swan not only is getting more airtime than usual, but what they're getting is often the best (imo) written part of the show--interesting, intense, and romantic.

No wonder some of the nonCS parts of the fandom are resentful.

 

As a Snowing/Captain Swan/Charmings fan, I tuned out because we were getting All Rumple/Regina all the time.  And I’m still frustrated on the Charming family front because I need to see Snowing embracing/loving/interacting with their baby girl more often. 

 

And if A&E weren’t so desperate in trying to give Regina everything Emma has, then maybe the romance with Robin would’ve been written better.  As it was, they got together way too early.  A slow burn might’ve benefited that relationship.  Or maybe they should’ve given her a canon love that didn’t piss on an already epic love story.

[Serena]

So Emma/Regina (excuse me, #SwanQueen) shippers managing to piss off even an AfterEllen writer has got to be some sort of record, right?

[mjgchick]

Yeah you're far gone when even after Ellen is coming for you.

[Souris]

So Emma/Regina (excuse me, #SwanQueen) shippers managing to piss off even an AfterEllen writer has got to be some sort of record, right?

 

What happened??

 

SQers are currently snarling at Jim Halterman (who is gay, BTW) for the unforgivable crime of writing Regina/Emma instead of SwanQueen.

[pezgirl7]

Their arguments are the same as always. if you don't like SwanQueen, whether it's the couple or the use of the pairing name, you're homophobic or appeasing the homophobes. No way it could be anything else.

[Serena]

I was talking about Jim. He writes for AE and he's so done with them.

[mjgchick]

I think everyone is at this point.

[Souris]

I was talking about Jim. He writes for AE and he's so done with them.

 

Oh, OK, I didn't realize he writes for AE. I thought something else was going on, too! Multi-front wars are not unusual there.

[RadioGirl27]

LOL! Some of those tweets are so funny.

[Mari]

And condescending.

[sharky]

Ugh. What is with people and the media? Don't ask for media coverage and then get pissed off because you get media coverage. As Mark Twain once said, "Never pick a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel."

[Curio]

A lot of Twitter and Tumblr users are cry bullies and regressive leftists who have such a selfish view of the world that they demand safe spaces and trigger warnings. Any time I see someone in the fandom use a logical argument against these types, I just have to sigh and shake my head because there's no reasoning with them. Some of the Once fandom is like the crowd of students at Yale who just could not comprehend the logic that was being presented to them. They refuse to hear the more rational viewpoints being argued and cling to their own group of like-minded people who agree with them.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Curio

[sharky]

Oh believe me, Curio. That's where I'm coming from with this. I'm an alum of the Missouri School of Journalism so... Yea, this has been an interesting week.

[Curio]

Sharky, I was debating linking to that Mizzou video. Crazy stuff. I see the younger generation (okay, technically my generation, but I don't like lumping myself with them) act like that and it makes me sad that that's our future right there. Don't get me wrong, Twitter, Tumblr, and the whole fandom can do a lot of good things too, but it's also spawned a generation of ignorant people who are ironically becoming the very things they were once protesting.

 

Anyways, I'm intrigued by how the fandom responds to this Sunday's episode. This thread is sure to be hot and happening after it airs...

[sharky]

You say the young people and yet it was a college communications professor "leading by example" and blocking journalists from doing their jobs. It makes you wonder if some fans of fandoms are narcissistic about what they love because they were raised by narcissists. I'm going to sound like an old lady here, but this is what happens when everyone gets a participation trophy. They all think their opinion is the right opinion and then you get people bitching because someone said Regina/Emma instead of #SwanQueen and THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT OPINION!

Edited November 12, 2015 by sharky

[mjgchick]

I'm not sure we can compare people fearing for their safety (Seriously the stuff I'm seeing on twitter and tumblr is scary.) vs a bunch of people getting upset that people don't see their ship as canon when no one absolutely no one working on the show has ever done that. 

[Curio]

I don't think a direct comparison was the intent. It's just a general observation that a lot of the younger generation claim to be social justice warriors for something, but sometimes look foolish because they completely ignore or misinterpret the opposite side's logical arguments. Which can broadly be applied to parts of Once's fandom culture and other online fandoms in general.

[ABitOFluff]

Going back to the SQ bad apples in particular, it pisses me off that they consider any fan of CaptainSwan or OutlawQueen to be homophobic, when that's far from facts as can be. Yes, there are homophobes in this world, but if there's one thing I can take from years of observing online SiFi/Fantasy fandom over the years, is that you'll find some of the most accepting and open fans in these genres than you will anywhere else.

 

So, here I am, a pansexual woman--and really, where are the cis-female/transmen/transwomen couples being represented--with several gay family/friends/coworkers. And I'm homophobic because I'm a fan of a canon heterosexual couple like CaptainSwan? Please, sit down and have several seats.

[Faemonic]

The "stop Once Upon a Hook" trend is ridiculous. In both season 3 and 4, his screentime was equal to or less than Snowing's, and below Emma and Regina's, and his actual role in the plot was never as big as his haters made it out to be (3B was probably the biggest role he got. His role in Neverland was no better or worse than any of the other Nevengers, his role in 4A was less than Emma's and the Frozen characters and was notorious for its lack of payoff, and he was practically a background character for the majority 4B save for his centric and the finale.)

I'd watch the heck out of a Neverland spinoff. There might be more of my type of viewer than there are "StopOnceUponAHook".

the unforgivable crime of writing Regina/Emma instead of SwanQueen.

If bad apple SwanQueen shippers are going to be that petty and exclusive, that subculture niche will destroy itself. We don't have to do a thing.

 

In more general fandom, I also noticed that apart from cute pairing names (which apparently people get unhealthily precious about, like I understand some people feel that casual hostilities validate the violent hostilities but why would a cute pairing name be the hill you die on or kill someone else on???) the pan-fandom standard for indicating a romantic ship seems to balance something like Regina/Emma with something like Regina X Emma. Was that trend the fault of the anime version of Romeo X Juliet? Is slash and femmeslash literally made one with the / punctuation? Why won't the ampersand get any love?

Edited November 12, 2015 by Faemonic