S01.E08: The Lord of the Tides

[Oscirus]

26 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

He's young, there's plenty of time yet. Plus Corlys isn't even actually dead so... not sure why this should be an issue at this moment in time.

If Baela's at Driftmark being trained for something that's not even her inheritance than Luke should be there as well.   Regardless of whether or not he's dead, Corlys isn't exactly a young man. He has enough obstacles in his life as a known bastard, why throw more at him but failing to educate him?

Edited October 15, 2022 by Oscirus

[ursula]

14 hours ago, paigow said:

Original issue was why the North was perceived as good. Not a referendum on rape.

You've lost me because the original issue was Aegon's treatment of the maid.

15 hours ago, ybrik said:

Of course it is interesting and relevant to the show in that the Targs especially on Dragonstone took advantage of the right of first night as much if not more then any other Lords/Kings. So as mentioned by others in previous posts, if Rhaenyra wanted to take a lover and get pregnant she couldn’t find one with more Targ like features. 

Does that count as a book spoiler? That said, "noble" bastards aren't always the result of the First Night e.g. Jon Snow was purported to be the child of someone Ned slept with during the War, and that wasn't depicted as extraordinary. However, I was specifically referring to how the North continued to practise First Night rites centuries after it was apparently outlawed. I wonder if this was out of a sense of rebellion, resenting the Targaryen Kings for over-stepping and abolishing a centuries long culture. The North do things differently and maybe there were religious undertones behind the First Night for them?

Edited October 15, 2022 by ursula

[Meredith Quill]

33 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If Baela's at Driftmark being trained for something that's not even her inheritance than Luke should be there as well.   Regardless of whether or not he's dead, Corlys isn't exactly a young man. He has enough obstacles in his life as a known bastard, why throw more at him but failing to educate him?

Where was it said that Baela was at Driftmark being trained for anything? As far as I'm aware she was a ward of Rhaenys and nothing more. Being a ward doesn't indicate being trained for something, it isn't like being a squire, only being raised by. As Rhaenyra precisely thanked Rhaenys for doing - she didn't thank her for training her, she thanked her for raising her.

As I said he's young, so who's to say he won't head there next week/month/year? Corlys may not be young but not being young isn't the same as dead or senile. Not to mention that I would expect in a fleet the size of Driftmark's there are many captains who can pass on their knowledge if Corlys was unable to do so himself. I think this is a moot argument at this moment time.

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

Where was it said that Baela was at Driftmark being trained for anything? As far as I'm aware she was a ward of Rhaenys and nothing more. Being a ward doesn't indicate being trained for something, it isn't like being a squire, only being raised by. As Rhaenyra precisely thanked Rhaenys for doing - she didn't thank her for training her, she thanked her for raising her.

As I said he's young, so who's to say he won't head there next week/month/year? Corlys may not be young but not being young isn't the same as dead or senile. Not to mention that I would expect in a fleet the size of Driftmark's there are many captains who can pass on their knowledge if Corlys was unable to do so himself. I think this is a moot argument at this moment time.

They didn't have to say it, they showed it. She was literally there with rhaenyss observing as she addressed Vaemond's complaints. Its implied that Rhaenys is training her. Shes not on Driftmark just visiting grandma cuz shes the favorite. 

His being young has nothing to do with anything. If he's not trained to take over Driftmark, why would anybody listen to him when the time comes? Hes not a supervisor, hes supposed to be the one in charge and he knows nothing about the place. He'd be more likely to "accidentally" wind up overboard on one of thode future voyages than he would to have any of those people listen to him just cuz his fake daddy claims him.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

44 minutes ago, ursula said:

You've lost me because the original issue was Aegon's treatment of the maid.

You said it was funny how the North is perceived as the good kingdom when the practice of First Night continued longer there, and Paigow said that perhaps it's perceived as the good kingdom because the nobles there look less extravagant. They were only commenting on the reason for the perception, not saying it is the good kingdom.

[ursula]

"Shower thought" 

What happened between Rhaenyra and Criston is the reverse of the Aegon/servant girl situation. Only both the Doylist and the Watsonian narrative consistently and unambiguously treat her as the victim. 

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

"Shower thought" 

What happened between Rhaenyra and Criston is the reverse of the Aegon/servant girl situation. Only both the Doylist and the Watsonian narrative consistently and unambiguously treat her as the victim. 

Pretty much, Aegon was just cruder and the maid wasnt a willing participant in the aftermath like criston was

[Meredith Quill]

54 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

They didn't have to say it, they showed it. She was literally there with rhaenyss observing as she addressed Vaemond's complaints. Its implied that Rhaenys is training her. Shes not on Driftmark just visiting grandma cuz shes the favorite. 

His being young has nothing to do with anything. If he's not trained to take over Driftmark, why would anybody listen to him when the time comes? Hes not a supervisor, hes supposed to be the one in charge and he knows nothing about the place. He'd be more likely to "accidentally" wind up overboard on one of thode future voyages than he would to have any of those people listen to him just cuz his fake daddy claims him.

Her being present means zilch, zip, diddly squat. It was a show mechanic to demonstrate that Baela was there at all - it was a Doylist device not a Watsonsian narrative. Who said she was visiting? I said she was being raised by, subtle but important distinction.

Of course his age has everything to do with such critique - him being a young lad means he has plenty of time to be taught/trained before reaching adulthood...lol. If someone young, not yet an adult, and inexperienced became Lord of Driftmark I have little doubt there would be plenty of people around to advise and teach him what he needed to know. As I said, imo this is moot until/unless it becomes an issue in the show.

21 minutes ago, ursula said:

"Shower thought" 

What happened between Rhaenyra and Criston is the reverse of the Aegon/servant girl situation. Only both the Doylist and the Watsonian narrative consistently and unambiguously treat her as the victim. 

So not the same but we shall beg to differ as I have zero desire to argue the points all over again.

[ursula]

6 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Pretty much, Aegon was just cruder and the maid wasnt a willing participant in the aftermath like criston was

I don't think Criston was "willing" in the aftermath. I think he just postponed his trauma by rationalizing what happened as not coercion but true love and when Rhaenyra broke that coping strategy, then he imploded.

Also interesting parallel that both parties have Alicent intervening to "fix" the problem. With the girl, she gives her money, gets rid of an unwanted baby and sends her on her way. With Cole, she gives him a purpose - vengeance. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

23 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Her being present means zilch, zip, diddly squat. It was a show mechanic to demonstrate that Baela was there at all - it was a Doylist device not a Watsonsian narrative.

Well, a ward doesn't have to be present at important meetings and decisions, and even if she's not officially being trained the fact that she's there means she's inevitably going to pick up a few things. Like Sam pointed out to Jon about being Lord Commander Jeor's steward.

Luke's age will be a plus in terms of having time to learn the ropes, as you said, assuming someone doesn't attack Driftmark right now. And even then there are experienced captains; basically his role would be to receive reports and rubber stamp everything if a conflict happens while he's still this young.

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Well, a ward doesn't have to be present at important meetings and decisions, and even if she's not officially being trained the fact that she's there means she's inevitably going to pick up a few things. Like Sam pointed out to Jon about being Lord Commander Jeor's steward.

Luke's age will be a plus in terms of having time to learn the ropes, as you said, assuming someone doesn't attack Driftmark right now. And even then there are experienced captains; basically his role would be to receive reports and rubber stamp everything if a conflict happens while he's still this young.

Sure, as a ward she doesn't have to be there, but she doesn't have to not be there either, that's my point. We were shown that the Watsonian narrative for her presence was a vehicle to have her be able to inform Daemon of the shenanigans going on regarding the Driftmark succession. That is what we were shown, so any rationale beyond that is pure speculation. Making further assumption based on nothing more than her presence at that *one specific meeting is just that and nothing more, assumption, unless we are told or shown more.

*If we're going to make assumptions based on one scene alone, it could just as easily be handwaved that she likely asked to be there for the specific purpose of keeping her father informed of the goings on at Driftmark and/or to find out how her grandfather is given his injury. Or another dozen reasons.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

Her being present means zilch, zip, diddly squat. It was a show mechanic to demonstrate that Baela was there at all - it was a Doylist device not a Watsonsian narrative. Who said she was visiting? I said she was being raised by, subtle but important distinction.

Of course his age has everything to do with such critique - him being a young lad means he has plenty of time to be taught/trained before reaching adulthood...lol. If someone young, not yet an adult, and inexperienced became Lord of Driftmark I have little doubt there would be plenty of people around to advise and teach him what he needed to know. As I said, imo this is moot until/unless it becomes an issue in the show.

Perhaps if she was in the crowd watching what her grandmother was doing, we could say it was the show showing us that she's there. The fact that she's stationed behind her grandmother in a position of prominence watching her hold court tells us that she's doing more than just watching. 

Besides, if Rhaenys is not training her, then there's no point to her raising Baela.

Given that Luke's "father" was actually on the boats at his age, saying that he's too young is a bit of a cop out and if he were to even try to go there and order anybody around, he'd be fucked up. Expecting people to be willing to teach someone who can't be assed to learn the job before he even becomes lord is asking a lot. Even if he does get lucky enough to find someone to teach him, it would be someone taking adavantage of Luke's inexperience to advance himself and his agenda.

[Meredith Quill]

12 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Perhaps if she was in the crowd watching what her grandmother was doing, we could say it was the show showing us that she's there. The fact that she's stationed behind her grandmother in a position of prominence watching her hold court tells us that she's doing more than just watching. 

Besides, if Rhaenys is not training her, then there's no point to her raising Baela.

Given that Luke's "father" was actually on the boats at his age, saying that he's too young is a bit of a cop out and if he were to even try to go there and order anybody around, he'd be fucked up. Expecting people to be willing to teach someone who can't be assed to learn the job before he even becomes lord is asking a lot. Even if he does get lucky enough to find someone to teach him, it would be someone taking adavantage of Luke's inexperience to advance himself and his agenda.

Why would she be 'in the crowd'? She's a member of the immediate family (and the only one there that we know of besides Vaemond) not some rando or distant relation. Additionally, if she had been in the crowd, the audience wouldn't know who she was, particularly as the character was aged up and had a new actor. So it makes sense from a show not tell viewpoint to have the character front and centre. Again, we weren't given any explanation beyond her informing her father of what's going on. So I'll stick with what we were shown and not assume beyond that.

I believe the reason for Baela being a ward of Driftmark was mentioned albeit briefly; Daemon and Rhaenyra knew the presence of one of her granddaughters would be consoling for Rhaenys given she'd lost both her children, which they were, in part, responsible for. (Personally, I spitball it was useful for them to keep Driftmark on side and have an informant within its walls. However, that is my own speculation, not fact).

[Oscirus]

21 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Why would she be 'in the crowd'? She's a member of the immediate family (and the only one there that we know of besides Vaemond) not some rando or distant relation. Additionally, if she had been in the crowd, the audience wouldn't know who she was, particularly as the character was aged up and had a new actor. So it makes sense from a show not tell viewpoint to have the character front and centre. Again, we weren't given any explanation beyond her informing her father of what's going on. So I'll stick with what we were shown and not assume beyond that.

I believe the reason for Baela being a ward of Driftmark was mentioned albeit briefly; Daemon and Rhaenyra knew the presence of one of her granddaughters would be consoling for Rhaenys given she'd lost both her children, which they were, in part, responsible for. (Personally, I spitball it was useful for them to keep Driftmark on side and have an informant within its walls. However, that is my own speculation, not fact).

We'd know who she was in the next scene, it wasnt necessary to establish her in that scene.  Previous scenes have established that family or not, if you dont have a position on the court, you're definitely not going to be watching from where baela was.  That would be the equivalent of Daemon standing over Viserys's shoulder cuz hes his brother.

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

We'd know who she was in the next scene, it wasnt necessary to establish her in that scene.  Previous scenes have established that family or not, if you dont have a position on the court, you're definitely not going to be watching from where baela was.  That would be the equivalent of Daemon standing over Viserys's shoulder cuz hes his brother.

Not a good side by side comparison. The king is an entirely different situation from a lord, let alone a wife standing in for her absent husband. Comparing the royal court with a noble house - those things are not the same at all. For starters, the king has a Hand... noble houses, do not.

Not necessary perhaps but expedient, yes.

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Where was it said that Baela was at Driftmark being trained for anything? As far as I'm aware she was a ward of Rhaenys and nothing more. Being a ward doesn't indicate being trained for something, it isn't like being a squire, only being raised by. As Rhaenyra precisely thanked Rhaenys for doing - she didn't thank her for training her, she thanked her for raising her.

I'm betting it has occurred to several people, a long time ago,  that Baela would be a good match for Luke when he becomes Lord of Driftmark.  She is definitely true born and keeps the bloodline in the family, as well as the name.

I'm sure Rhaenys is training her on her dragon and that she is picking up a lot of pointers about the running of the kingdom. Like the Vikings, Rhaenys has that role while Corlys is out on the ships.

Maybe the plan was to have Luke join Corlys on the ships at some point.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Affogato
can't spell

[millennium]

I kept looking for Lowenstein.

[ursula]

9 hours ago, Affogato said:

I'm betting it has occurred to several people, a long time ago,  that Baela would be a good match for Luke when he becomes Lord of Driftmark.  She is definitely true born and keeps the bloodline in the family, as well as the name.

This makes sense. As corlys’s oldest grandchild, Baela had a better claim to Driftmark than her younger sister. But she’s engaged to Jace, not Luke. Rhaena is the one who’ll be Lady of Driftmark.

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

This makes sense. As corlys’s oldest grandchild, Baela had a better claim to Driftmark than her younger sister. But she’s engaged to Jace, not Luke. Rhaena is the one who’ll be Lady of Driftmark.

Only cuz rhaenyra set it up that way. Im betting that rhaenys was originally targetting baela for luke and driftmark before said offer

[ursula]

27 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Only cuz rhaenyra set it up that way. Im betting that rhaenys was originally targetting baela for luke and driftmark before said offer

If that was the case she could have simply switched them out. I don’t think it mattered to Rhaenyra which girl was marrying which boy (although the children might have had their preferences). 

[lawrbk]

On 10/9/2022 at 10:36 PM, cambridgeguy said:

I guess Vaemond decided to heck with it, there's no way I can come back from this so might as well go out shouting the truth.  A quick death probably beats the tongue removal and exile from Driftmark that likely would have been the alternative.

That’s what the actor said. Basically he knew he was screwed so he just laid it out for *everyone* to hear rather than just gossiping amongst themselves.

[Roseanna]

I agree.

At that time of society, raising children was the same as training them. If you was born as a daughter or son of a peasant, you began to work very young and leaned from your mom or dad. If you were born in a noble family, you were sent from home to relatives or another noble family. A squire learned how to be a knight. A maiden learned from the mistress of the manor/castle skills a woman needed.

[proserpina65]

I've watched this episode multiple times now, and only just realized two things about that awkward family dinner scene today.

Just before Viserys enters, you can hear a conversation between Aemond and Aegon which starts with Aemond saying something about his brother drinking too much wine, followed by:

Aegon - "You don't drink enough."

Aemond - "You drink more than a Braavosi Sea Lord."

Aegon - "I drink exactly the right amount."

Later, right before the pig is brought in, Aemond's sitting at an odd angle, which I'd presumed was him avoiding looking at Rhaenyra's end of the table.  But I've decided that he's actually watching Helaena and Jace dancing.

[Scarlett45]

On 10/12/2022 at 10:47 PM, Lady S. said:

Alicent's relationship with Viserys really interested me this ep, because she has plenty of reason to resent him, more than Rhaenyra, or even Otto at this point imo. And one could see that resentment last ep when he was still walking around a little better, but now it seems the pity and sympathy which was the basis for her bond with him has returned now that Viserys is at his most pitiful. Yes, she and Otto are absolutely taking advantage of his condition to work their will instead of his, but it seems she did care about his pain. She had the same oh shit reaction as Otto when he made his big throne room entrance, but as he was hobbling his way up to the throne she just looked concerned for him. Then as he's done she rushes to help him up, as if she could carry him down by herself. We see a shot of Rhaenyra noticing and reacting, which along with the music cues during the dinner and Olivia Cooke's performance, is enough to convince me that Rhaenyra's toast had some sincerity to it. Finally there's the way that before Viserys mistook Alicent for Rhaenyra he first mistook Rhaenyra for Alicent. Given that she is a distant third (if that) as his favorite women go, I think that mistake was due to habit more than affection, which I think indicates she is regularly tending him when not busy ruling in his name or cleaning up after her son. She doesn't have to do that, especially now that he's too out of it to know or care much what she does.

I do think their relationship is interesting and quite complex as human relationships tend to be. Viserys was good to Alicent- he was kind and tender, they had nice conversations, and while she was never sexually attracted to him, I do believe she did love him and I believe he loved her. (Although Aemma was his great love).
 

 Alicent took her DUTY as his wife seriously because she was that type, and she also knew she could’ve done way worse (marrying a brute that beat her or was emotionally cruel). It wouldn’t be hard to be kind to a man like Viserys in his elder years- she was making sure he was cared for because she knew he was a decent human, and she would want someone to do that for her if she fell ill in her last years.