Untold - General Discussion

[Door County Cherry]

A series of documentaries looking at sports, mental health and fandom.  

Some of the titles include:

The Girlfriend Who  Didn't Exist
Malice At The Palace
Breaking Point
Crimes & Penalties
The Rise And Fall of And1
Deal With The Devil
Caitlyn Jenner
 

[Armchair Critic]

Manti tugged on his ear when they asked him if he thought he was being Catfished, a sign to me he was lying. The thing that bothers me is when he let people think he had met Lennay, that is suspicious. It seems like it is giving an out to his Catfisher by saying it was part of their journey to coming out transgender. That doesn’t excuse doing that.

[SunnyBeBe]

I’ll have to go back to see the ear tug.
 

 Something really seemed off to me, but I’m not sure what was the most outrageous thing.  The catfisher’s voice definitely sounded feminine.  Even Dr. Phil proved that.  But, how would a young man not get insistent on meeting or at least super curious enough to confirm the women he met online, after a year into the relationship.  And, I find it almost incomprehensible to announce the death of a person, who you never physically met after a quick phone call and nothing more.  It boggles the mind Manti was that naive.  I didn’t fully understand the thing about the real girl posing for a photo…..the catfisher took responsibility for that, but Manti said he sanctioned it?  Is that right?  Sounds weird. I don’t get it.  
 

Secondly, WHY did the catfisher stage their own death on the day Manti’s grandmother died?  The catfisher says they regret it, but they went on to prolong the pain and hoax….it seemed needlessly cruel and pointless.  So much, that I wonder why the catfisher was not sued for the Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress.  The damages seemed to be quite large.  Once again, this makes me question why…

I’ve watched the show Catfish for years.  Most every victim had plenty of warnings and those who choose to stay ignorant, do so voluntarily.  It’s just not reasonable to stay in the dark for extended periods of time, so I get why Manti got so much backlash.  I wonder if the truth will ever be revealed.  This special barely scratched the surface.  

[PatsyB]

I don't really remember much about this story so a lot of it was new to me. I think the whole thing becomes more understandable since Manti was so out of his depth at Notre Dame and was desperate for connections to people that shared his background. He was vulnerable in the sense that he felt so isolated and that opened the door to someone like his catfisher. Manti had more sympathy for Lennay (don't remember their real name) than I would have thought, this person ruined their life for their own selfish reasons. Even faking their death when Manti was moving away from them, and to do it on the same day Manti's grandmother died, unconscionable. 

[merylinkid]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

he catfisher says they regret it

that's what annoyed me the most.    She kept saying "I don't know what I was thinking."   And then there is no follow up.   It's just "oh well wasn't thinkig straight, was on my journey, its all good now because now I know who I am."    She seems more pissed that T'eo didn't back her up when it all came out.    When she said "It was all going good, then HE did that interview."   "Then he RELEASED the voicemails."   Like how DARE HE, mess up my perfect narrative of how *I* am really the wronged one here because I was all confused about my gender identity.   

T'eo wasn't the only guy she was catfishing.   Just the most famous.  We just don't know what they all knew and when, or what lies she told them.   Who knows how many times she "died."   Or manipulated other people some other way.   

I can believe T'eo had no clue.   I remember when this story first came out.   I thought too "what do you mean, your girlfriend is in a major car accident on life support and you don't go visit her."   But people who are involved in college football said "yep makes sense.   unless coach says go, you don't even think to go."   Knowing what I know now about how college coaches control their players because their future depends on the coach liking them -- yeah i can see that.   Plus his own parents said "when he is focusing on football, there is nothing else."   

Also he did want to see her.   But Naya admitted she came up with every excuse in the world to keep it from happening.   The "accident' was just the biggest excuse because ND was going to be playing in the Rose Bowl he and said he would visit her then.   So this isn't that T'eo didn't think to visit her, its just when you have been put off long enough, you stop trying unless something happens.   Like you are going to be actually in the same town.   

[Irlandesa]

On 8/18/2022 at 3:42 AM, Armchair Critic said:

Manti tugged on his ear when they asked him if he thought he was being Catfished, a sign to me he was lying.

People also tug their ears to show general anxiety.

On 8/19/2022 at 10:44 PM, merylinkid said:

I can believe T'eo had no clue.   

I can too.  I think his life was highly controlled as a football player. It also sounds like he was a member of the Mormon church and his family was deeply involved in it.  It might explain why he had never heard of catfishing even though it existed before he was catfished. 

[sadie]

Sorry but I have zero sympathy for the cat fisher. This wasn’t a story about them not knowing who they were, or not wanting to acknowledge or being a transgender woman, nope, this was about them lying and tricking another human being. And I didn’t get one indication they actually felt bad about what they did.  I think she wanted us to feel for her “journey” and that this had something to do with that. Straight, gay, transgender, none of that has anything to do with crafting a fake identity, tricking another human and publicly humiliating them and possibly damaging their career. They are scum and T’eo may have forgiven her but sure don’t. She’s a shitty human.

I think T’eo isn’t that smart so I believe he believed the scam, I don’t think he was complicit in this. What a bizarre story. 

[zenithwit]

I don't think Manti is complicit either in the hoax.  I genuinely believe that he was that naive and gullible.  Now how could someone be that naive and gullible?  That's a lingering question along with how could the media be that naive and gullible?  It's crazy to think that not one reporter before the  Deadspin article didn't think to google Lennay.

We all know that the NFL sucks but it was frustrating to see how Manti's perceived sexuality impacted his career prospects- especially considering some of the people the NFL has opted to keep on its payroll.  The media was pretty terrible on this topic as well.

Regardless of the NFL shenanigans, I'm  guessing Manti made decent enough money for himself and his family.  Though i did feel for Manti about how his playing style changed after joining the NFL and how he lost that spark and determination on the field.  That must tough for him to realize that he peaked professionally in college and no longer possessed that unbridled potential.

[Bastet]

Since I love USC and hate Notre Dame, I was laughing pretty hard at the footage of him sitting there miserably announcing he was going to Notre Dame (because, even though he wanted to go to USC, he thought God told him to go to Notre Dame).

But I wound up feeling sorry for him.  He's in an environment where he feels alien, he loses (or at least believes he does) his girlfriend and grandma simultaneously, then he finds out the girlfriend is actually alive but he's been catfished, then he's not only publicly humiliated when the world finds out he was a fool, he's accused of being in on the hoax - and the reason for that is speculated to be that he's gay, which harms his earning potential in the cesspool of homophobia that is the NFL.

I felt bad for Naya living in an oppressive family, to the point she can't even be who she is, and I can understand feeling the only way to get to live as a woman is to play one on the internet; she had online-only relationships and cut them off once the guy wanted to meet in person, so nobody got too attached.  But stretching things out with Manti so long, knowing he'd fallen in love, going so far as to fake being on life support and having cancer, getting his family involved, and then faking her death -- that is just beyond.

I'm glad he's happy Naya was able to tell her story, too:

Quote

In conversation with Entertainment Tonight, Te'o also said he was happy Tuiasosopo was able to share her side of the story.

He reflected: "I'm grateful that Naya was able to go on there, and I'm sure it wasn't comfortable for Naya as well, but I wanted it. I told [Untold directors] Tony Vainuku and Ryan Duffy I wanted it to be the story. That's what was so great. Everybody said it's my story. No, I wanted it to be the story.

"[Because] when this thing comes out I don't want it to just be one-sided. I didn't want it to just be me. I wanted it to be everybody. And again, it was the entire truth and I think that's what people really love about it. There was no stone left unturned, and definitely it was a powerful experience."

It's good he did this project ("I thought to myself, man, what a great opportunity that this could be, where I'm at a place now where I'm not ashamed of anything. I'm at peace with everything, so I can tell it"), and has received a lot of positive reaction:

Quote

He recently took to Instagram to address the positive response he has received.

In the emotional video, Te'o said: "I just wanted to come out here real quick to give a heartfelt thank you to everybody who has come through and has shown so much love to me and my family, for your messages, for your comments.

"It's been amazing to me to hear the battles that we're all facing, the challenges that we're facing in our lives at this time, and how the documentary has given some of us hope, the extra push just to keep going if there's anything that I wanted from this thing was just to give some of us hope who needed it, to tell those who needed some love that they're loved, and to help them to forgive."

Edited August 30, 2022 by Bastet

[Irlandesa]

On 8/24/2022 at 2:39 AM, zenithwit said:

That's a lingering question along with how could the media be that naive and gullible?  It's crazy to think that not one reporter before the  Deadspin article didn't think to google Lennay.

Lennay did exist online.  I think that's how the media got pictures of her.

I have to side eye Deadspin in this too.  They talk about how they couldn't believe ESPN didn't vet the story Manti was telling and yet the story they put out wasn't wholly accurate either.  In fact, they were more worried about getting scooped than finding out what went down. 

I just wanted the AND1 episode.  I can't believe I've never heard of this brand.  I'm not a basketball fan but I still would have thought I'd be aware of them.

[Bastet]

The one about the kid who liked playing hockey because he could beat people up and then at 17 couldn't play anymore due to injury so his dad, who's in the mob, bought him a team was chock full of ridiculous characters.

The one on Malice at the Palace was really good, though.  I had no idea Metta Sandiford-Artest was so self reflective; I'm glad it seems he really has turned his life around from Ron Artest who was assaulting his wife and neglecting his dog (it's been a good ten years since I heard about him doing anything in a rage).

That one fan is still a dick, and I'll bet the asshole who started it all by throwing the beer can still is, too.  The way he was smirking in that old interview about not feeling bad Artest went after the wrong guy, ugh.

It was so gross to watch all the clips of racist commentary about "thugs" and the "hip-hop generation" of the NBA.  And how public perception was based on the edited clip ESPN kept running and the really long suspensions handed down by the NBA, while the police and prosecutors, who reviewed all the footage, held the fans more culpable than the players.

[charmed1]

Other than the true victims - Manti and Diane, everyone was simply awful. I can’t decide if Naya or Deadspin are the bigger pieces of shit in this. Naya is horrible, but Deadspin is completely at fault for framing the story as Manti being in on the “hoax.” And by the way, fuck you very much Katie Couric.

Naya…whew. What a horrible person. To say that this helped them discover who they are. Since when does coming terms with one’s identity involve ruining the life of a completely innocent person? And then they get to run back to American Samoa like “Bye! I’m free!” Asshole.

I believe Manti. I know a lot of kids like Manti. He grew up sheltered in a big, working class, religious family where sports was the only thing drilled into his head since childhood. Instead of going to the school he really wanted to go to, he let adults pressure him into going where they wanted him to go even though the religious dogma he was raised on makes him think it was all God’s idea. It really burns me up when I think about the damage missionaries have done to people of color, but that’s a different topic for another day.

Edited August 30, 2022 by charmed1

[sainte-chapelle]

On 8/19/2022 at 11:44 PM, merylinkid said:

that's what annoyed me the most.    She kept saying "I don't know what I was thinking."   And then there is no follow up.   It's just "oh well wasn't thinkig straight, was on my journey, its all good now because now I know who I am."    She seems more pissed that T'eo didn't back her up when it all came out.    When she said "It was all going good, then HE did that interview."   "Then he RELEASED the voicemails."   Like how DARE HE, mess up my perfect narrative of how *I* am really the wronged one here because I was all confused about my gender identity.   

T'eo wasn't the only guy she was catfishing.   Just the most famous.  We just don't know what they all knew and when, or what lies she told them.   Who knows how many times she "died."   Or manipulated other people some other way.   

I can believe T'eo had no clue.   I remember when this story first came out.   I thought too "what do you mean, your girlfriend is in a major car accident on life support and you don't go visit her."   But people who are involved in college football said "yep makes sense.   unless coach says go, you don't even think to go."   Knowing what I know now about how college coaches control their players because their future depends on the coach liking them -- yeah i can see that.   Plus his own parents said "when he is focusing on football, there is nothing else."   

Also he did want to see her.   But Naya admitted she came up with every excuse in the world to keep it from happening.   The "accident' was just the biggest excuse because ND was going to be playing in the Rose Bowl he and said he would visit her then.   So this isn't that T'eo didn't think to visit her, its just when you have been put off long enough, you stop trying unless something happens.   Like you are going to be actually in the same town.   

This. It was all about Leenay and her journey. How DARE T’eo release the tapes? What a manipulative awful person. She also feeds into the stereotype of trans people being manipulative tricksters who get off on fooling men. It makes my blood boil. She loves attention that is for sure. She also admitted to faking the cancer story and accident when he started pulling away, why not just let it die, again because it is all about her toxic ass. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by sainte-chapelle

[kassandra8286]

I just finished watching the Manti episode. I was filled with pity for him and disgust for Naya, the NFL, and the media. 

I've listened to a lot of true crime podcasts about catfishing and cons recently such as The Hollywood Con Queen, Snowball, and Sweet Bobby, to name a few (all excellent btw). What struck me is how every person who fell victim to the con, even if there was no romantic involvement or even if the money lost wasn't a huge amount, was left broken and damaged and forever changed. The psychological effects are devastating. It's heartbreaking. I'm glad for Manti that he's in a better place and was able to get the help he needed. 

On 8/30/2022 at 7:42 AM, sainte-chapelle said:

She also admitted to faking the cancer story and accident when he started pulling away, why not just let it die

Exactly. And to continue to be involved with Manti after her "death", till she couldn't resist resurrecting herself.

I think I spaced out or dozed off for a few minutes during part one, but what was the deal with Manti meeting up with "Lennay's" family (including Ronaiah) at the airport? And who was the little girl who told him she missed her "Auntie Lennay"?? 

Edited September 4, 2022 by kassandra8286

[sainte-chapelle]

6 hours ago, kassandra8286 said:

I just finished watching the Manti episode. I was filled with pity for him and disgust for Naya, the NFL, and the media. 

I've listened to a lot of true crime podcasts about catfishing and cons recently such as The Hollywood Con Queen, Snowball, and Sweet Bobby, to name a few (all excellent btw). What struck me is how every person who fell victim to the con, even if there was no romantic involvement or even if the money lost wasn't a huge amount, was left broken and damaged and forever changed. The psychological effects are devastating. It's heartbreaking. I'm glad for Manti that he's in a better place and was able to get the help he needed. 

Exactly. And to continue to be involved with Manti after her "death", till she couldn't resist resurrecting herself.

I think I spaced out or dozed off for a few minutes during part one, but what was the deal with Manti meeting up with "Lennay's" family (including Ronaiah) at the airport? And who was the little girl who told him she missed her "Auntie Lennay"?? 

I think he was speaking with her family (Ronaiah using different identities) after her ‘death.’  She couldn’t resist the urge to meet Manti so brought a long a baby cousin, who was referring to missing her real aunt Leenay. I think that was it? I felt bad for Manti, he had a mediocre career when he could have had a great one full of sponsorship deals.

[charmed1]

9 hours ago, kassandra8286 said:

And who was the little girl who told him she missed her "Auntie Lennay"?? 

That was Naya’s own sister that was brought in on the scam. Diabolical.

I hated how Naya tried to take credit for Manti’s good game performance. That lame “advice” they’re claiming to have given could’ve come out of the mouth of any basic orange slices, booster club, Pop Warner mom in America.

I see how Naya was able to successfully scam Manti. Naya and Manti had very similar backgrounds. Both from small Polynesian communities, both Mormon, both played football, both  came from football playing families. And Manti was the ever dutiful son. His father said the only words that came out of his mouth were “yes mom” and “yes dad.” Naya knew all of this and knew exactly how to exploit it to their advantage. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by charmed1

[Wiendish Fitch]

I have nothing but disgust for Naya. She's one of those smarmy, unrepentant assholes who think punching up sentences with trite phrases make up for what she did, such as:

"I'm not proud of myself."

GOOD. You better not be proud of yourself! You lied to and emotionally manipulated some poor rando who never did you any wrong, and you stole not one, but two identities!

"It snowballed out of control!"

Bullshit. You had the ability and opportunity to come clean, or break off contact with Manti, or simply stay "dead", but you chose not to.

"I'm a Christian, and...."

Stop. Just stop. Stop right now. Being a "Christian" does not automatically make you a good person, and using religion as a shield for your vile actions is disgusting and morally reprehensible. There are plenty of scumbag Christians out there, and you are definitely one of them. You want forgiveness? You have to confess and repent (which is more than just a half-assed "I'm sowwy"), or did you skip that part in the Bible you profess to have read?

On 8/30/2022 at 10:42 AM, sainte-chapelle said:

What a manipulative awful person. She also feeds into the stereotype of trans people being manipulative tricksters who get off on fooling men. It makes my blood boil. She loves attention that is for sure. She also admitted to faking the cancer story and accident when he started pulling away, why not just let it die, again because it is all about her toxic ass. 

THIS. You said it better than I could have. Feeding that gross stereotype is utterly shameful.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Wiendish Fitch

[Bastet]

Between Malice at the Palace and Flagrant Foul, it is clear NBA Commissioner David Stern was shady as shit.  And I'd vaguely heard that before, but I pay very little attention to the NBA (I like March Madness and the WNBA, though), so that was it.  What a piece of work.  I can't decide whether I think the ref was deliberately throwing games.  I don't believe his claim all he did was use his insider information in making his bets, as there's no way he wasn't at least subconsciously influenced by said bets in calling or not calling a foul that could have gone one way or the other.  And some calls were utterly bizarre, but that's true of all officials.

I almost didn't watch the Caitlyn Jenner one, as I think she's a twit, but I couldn't sleep so gave it a whirl.  It was mildly interesting to revisit those Olympic games and hear how she regards Bruce as a persona she created and respects, but it wasn't my favorite installment of the series.  I didn't know she had tried to transition a long time before she eventually did, so that when she came out to her first son as transgender, his response was, "Yeah, I know."  Contrast that with not telling her daughters, who are followed by paparazzi on a daily basis, so they found out via the media.

I wasn't at all familiar with the tennis player, Mardy Fish, but good for him speaking so openly about his anxiety disorder in the hopes of helping other athletes with their own mental health issues.  I kept falling asleep during that one (not a reflection on its content, just that I was finally dozing off), so I'll have to do a proper watch.

[Irlandesa]

I only discovered this series with Manti's episode so there's a lot I have to go back to see some of the earlier ones.

On 9/4/2022 at 3:18 PM, Bastet said:

I can't decide whether I think the ref was deliberately throwing games.  I don't believe his claim all he did was use his insider information in making his bets, as there's no way he wasn't at least subconsciously influenced by said bets in calling or not calling a foul that could have gone one way or the other.

I think a lot of things can influence calls.  For him, I think it was a combination of insider knowledge and choices about what he chooses to call.  I don't know basketball very well but I do watch NFL football at times and in those games, a foul could be called on about 90% of the plays. There's usually someone grabbing or holding or doing something on a football field, especially when it comes to pass interference.  Some crews take the perspective of just letting the players play and only flagging the more egregious penalties or obvious penalties (like false start). Other crews are wildly unpredictable as to whether they're going to flag a little jostling.  There have definitely been times when it seems like one team is getting all of the penalties for doing things the other team is doing but not getting flagged for.

In other words, biased judgment calls can definitely tilt the game.  But since his rate was about 30-10 (I think?) instead of 40-0, he was limited in his power.

The thing that irritated me was the ending where he has become some sort of real estate mogul.  Even though the feds do have good forensic accountants, I'm not sure I believe he only earned 30K from his gambling.

The only episode of this batch that I couldn't get through was the Greatest Race.  It's talking about big scandals...etc. but it's mostly just focusing on race prep and I can't get through it.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Irlandesa