S06.E10: Nippy

[Constantinople]

12 hours ago, Pj3422 said:

And don’t forget the Schnauz sharp cheddar from Wisconsin! That HAS to be a shout-out to producer Thomas Schnauz. 

I didn't know that. I suppose that's why Jimmy's mother was from Wisconsin.

[peeayebee]

10 hours ago, Adiba said:

On topic: Does anyone know why the security guard sat facing away from the monitors, rather than toward them, when eating? He could have watched while eating.

The explanations other here gave are good, but I would add that Frank so enjoyed the Cinnabons that he didn't want any work distractions. I think he did start to turn around at one point to look at the monitors, but Gene easily got him to turn back. Also, Frank is a very sociable guy. No way would he eat with his back to Gene.

8 hours ago, Arkay said:

Therefore I’m wondering if Carol Burnett is a one-off who just wanted to appear and the show wanted her, or if she is going to appear further with more purpose.

I don't think the show would have her a one-off. That would be a huge waste of Burnett and reek of stunt-casting.

8 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Wouldn't the security guards get sick of Cinnabon? Funny that is what stuck with me from this episode, but I figured Jimmy Saul Gene was bringing them for a few weeks. 

I don't think it was weeks that Jimmy was bringing them. Doesn't seem like it would take that long to plan this caper. But like you I was wondering about them getting sick of Cinnabons. I've had them, and they are a major indulgence -- very sweet, gooey, and heavy. However, obviously there are people (like Frank) who can handle it and love every bite.

[SimplexFish]

21 hours ago, ctlady said:

Disappointed the anticipated appearance of Walt and/or Jesse was a bust.  But we did get a nice shout out from Gene (paraphrasing): "I'll tell you what crazy is - a 50 year old chemistry teacher who came to me so broke he couldn't pay his bills.  A year later he had enough money to fill a Volkswagon"

I think he said the SIZE of a Volkswagen, LOL

[Constantinople]

31 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Mileage varies, of course.  But if one considers Granite State, it "sucked" too.  

Walt travels from New Mexico to New Hampshire.  He checks into a cabin.  He plays cards.  He walks to the local tavern.  He watches TV.  He makes a couple phone calls.  He leaves.  

Narratively, not much happens--especially compared to the episodes before and after it.  And yet every scene is critical to show how bleak Walt's life had become.  

I think Nippy is the Granite State of BCS.  It shows the old Jimmy McGill / Saul Goodman in action again, but then wisely choosing not to continue his scams.  

Much more happens in Granite State than Nippy, and much of it occurs in Albuquerque. It's not just Walt in a cabin alone.

https://breakingbad.fandom.com/wiki/Granite_State

Also, Better Call Saul set higher expectations than Breaking Bad because BCS had multiple flash forwards of Gene Takovic, Cinnabon manager throughout the series before the all Gene Nippy episode airs. Expectations that fell flat when all that happens is the Great Mall Caper of 2010.

In contrast, there were no flash forwards of Mr. Lambert before the part Mr Lambert Granite State episode aired. And even then, Walt calling Walt Jr., finding out what Walt Jr. thinks of him, then calling the DEA to give himself up, then reverting to Heisenberg after seeing Gretchen and Elliot diss him on the Charlie Rose show was vastly more interesting than anything that happened in Nippy.

[anoninrva]

21 hours ago, Starchild said:

Money laundering would be my guess.

What's the statute of limitation on that? Would it be federal or just state level?

Saul was also involved in some of the prison murders, IIRC.  I know that Todd mentioned his uncle, but I'm struggling to remember how he entered the picture.  Saul made some suggestions about offing people in prison previously.

[Eulipian 5k]

12 hours ago, Adiba said:

anytime art is presented to the public for its consumption or entertainment, the art itself becomes dynamic, not static.

Excellent point.

I just don't get it with the 'took me out of the show" comments. They're not "in the show"; they're watching it on a 2 dimensional screen. Or, the folks who want to delete some scenes so they can show us something else; rarely, rarely, add anything to the artists vision. It comes off as presumptuous, all the time. The makers of the show got all the input they needed in the writer's rooms, on set, from the director, the producer, actors... There won't be an "Internet Cut" of BCS anytime soon, but there are a bunch of fun video games that allow the user to choose their plot.

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Much more happens in Granite State than Nippy, and much of it occurs in Albuquerque. It's not just Walt in a cabin alone.  

True.  But then again there were more characters to deal with in Granite State.  There is only one other character that needs to be shown in BCS, and that's Kim.  At least there are still three episodes left and not just one.  Maybe she will get her own "set-up" episode before the felina.  That would be nifty.  

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

In contrast, there were no flash forwards of Mr. Lambert before the part Mr Lambert Granite State episode aired. And even then, Walt calling Walt Jr., finding out what Walt Jr. thinks of him, then calling the DEA to give himself up, then reverting to Heisenberg after seeing Gretchen and Elliot diss him on the Charlie Rose show was vastly more interesting than anything that happened in Nippy.

In the previous episode, Walt Jr. pulled a knife on his father.  Telling him off was a good way to wrap up the character, but it was a lot less exciting compared to that.  And Walt did not revert to Heisenberg until the following episode.  In Granite State all he did was drop the telephone receiver.  

So I still think Nippy is the Granite State of BCS, or at least the Walt portions.  And there are three episodes left instead of one.  

I will add that this discussion has reminded me of a truly wasted near-the-end episode, the one from Deep Space Nine where Bashir and O'Brien spend an hour traipsing through the corridors of William Sadler's mind.  Yuck.  

Edited July 27, 2022 by PeterPirate

[anoninrva]

19 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Gene took a ton of burner phones, but left the Tequilla bottle stopper?

Wasn't the same bottle used to poison the cartel and bought spontaneously by the broken-armed judge?  Just because it's high-end, doesn't seem to indicate it's particularly rare.  Saul may have just had a bottle of his own in the garish mansion, and Kim could have (probably didn't with the recent character development, but still, *could have*) taken the souvenir also.  It's also possible that he never noticed her fetishizing it.  I seem to recall her having been alone in all of those scenes, mostly with the top  in her desk?

[ShadowFacts]

7 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Excellent point.

I just don't get it with the 'took me out of the show" comments. They're not "in the show"; they're watching it on a 2 dimensional screen. Or, the folks who want to delete some scenes so they can show us something else; rarely, rarely, add anything to the artists vision. It comes off as presumptuous, all the time. The makers of the show got all the input they needed in the writer's rooms, on set, from the director, the producer, actors... There won't be an "Internet Cut" of BCS anytime soon, but there are a bunch of fun video games that allow the user to choose their plot.

I'm guilty of this sometimes, "sticks out like a sore thumb" is maybe a more accurate phrasing for me. Like I always roll my eyes and carp in a forum about having snow on the fully leafed-out deciduous trees. In such a very beautifully and carefully photographed production, either have the shots designed to show no trees, only non-deciduous ones, or just the trunks. This happens all the time in shows and it's always a distraction.

[gallimaufry]

If anything, I think "Granite State" is rather rushed.  We get very little of Marie, not a lot of Skylar, just one scene of Walt Jr (a great scene but his only significant scene post "Ozymandias") and the Jesse stuff had so much potential for expansion that they did a good half of "El Camino" during that time period.  I do feel like BB accelerated dramatically in the last season ("Gliding Over All" and "Granite State" bearing a particular burden here) and I missed the more painstaking pace that is more common on both shows.  By and large, "Better Call Saul" seems to have kept that pace consistent all the way through which is impressive.  There are still some odd gaps but there are also three episodes to go and given how many balls they had in the air, it's impressive how well they've landed everything.

[PeterPirate]

42 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm guilty of this sometimes, "sticks out like a sore thumb" is maybe a more accurate phrasing for me. Like I always roll my eyes and carp in a forum about having snow on the fully leafed-out deciduous trees. In such a very beautifully and carefully photographed production, either have the shots designed to show no trees, only non-deciduous ones, or just the trunks. This happens all the time in shows and it's always a distraction.

I'm all for such comments.  Most people watch a show to become emotionally invested in the characters, and if they post about something specific that got in the way of that experience, I will sometimes re-watch the same scene to see if I agree with them.  I've already had my own experience watching the episode, and the reason I come here is to learn about other peoples' reactions.  

Edited July 27, 2022 by PeterPirate
Pronouns

[peeayebee]

26 minutes ago, anoninrva said:

Wasn't the same bottle used to poison the cartel and bought spontaneously by the broken-armed judge?  Just because it's high-end, doesn't seem to indicate it's particularly rare.  Saul may have just had a bottle of his own in the garish mansion, and Kim could have (probably didn't with the recent character development, but still, *could have*) taken the souvenir also.  It's also possible that he never noticed her fetishizing it.  I seem to recall her having been alone in all of those scenes, mostly with the top  in her desk?

I can't remember it being on her desk. I'm not saying it wasn't, just that I don't remember.

The tequila may not have been rare, just expensive, but I'm positive that bottle stopper we see fall into the gutter was from that first scam they pulled together. Thematically it makes sense.

23 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm guilty of this sometimes, "sticks out like a sore thumb" is maybe a more accurate phrasing for me. Like I always roll my eyes and carp in a forum about having snow on the fully leafed-out deciduous trees. In such a very beautifully and carefully photographed production, either have the shots designed to show no trees, only non-deciduous ones, or just the trunks. This happens all the time in shows and it's always a distraction.

One thing I can't help but fixate on is when people are drinking from disposable cups of coffee, and it's obvious that the cups are empty.

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Wouldn't the security guards get sick of Cinnabon? Funny that is what stuck with me from this episode, but I figured Jimmy Saul Gene was bringing them for a few weeks. I have never had Cinnabon so can't judge, when I was younger and went to the mall with my Mom she wouldn't buy them and when I got old enough to buy my own they were gone from our mall.

On the contrary, Gene's visit was something Frank, especially, started to look forward to every day. His job is pretty much the same thing most of the day, so he had even more reason to look forward to it, want to eat it fresh. Not just the food, but his visit from Gene.

I'm incredibly habit-bound, so I'd be just the same.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Excellent point.

I just don't get it with the 'took me out of the show" comments. They're not "in the show"; they're watching it on a 2 dimensional screen. Or, the folks who want to delete some scenes so they can show us something else; rarely, rarely, add anything to the artists vision. It comes off as presumptuous, all the time. The makers of the show got all the input they needed in the writer's rooms, on set, from the director, the producer, actors... There won't be an "Internet Cut" of BCS anytime soon, but there are a bunch of fun video games that allow the user to choose their plot.

IMO it is presumptuous. I advise most of those people to go write some fanfic, and let us know when their work gets picked up by a network 🤣🤣. The internet is full of self professed “experts” on everything from screen writing, education/curriculum, virology, and medical care, just to name a few. 🤦‍♀️You know what they say about a man who serves as his own lawyer. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Penman61]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

If Carol Burnett's character ends up dropping a dime on Gene, I would kind of love it. She said he is good for her son and if she finds out he's not, all bets are off. Or figures it out herself, she may remember one of his commercials from visiting Jeffy in ABQ. Jimmy had a doting mother who protected him, this would mirror that.

I forget where I heard it, but it seemed plausible to me:

This episode is taking place in October 2010, and Walter White was killed in September 2010. And since that massacre and his capture/death probably would have been a regional if not national news story that Mom might have seen, if Jeff tells Mom about the "50 year old high school teacher" who became super-rich, Mom is smart enough to put it together, remembering the news story from just a month ago. Seems plausible? I dunno...

[BFA]

I was under the impression these two security guys were mall security.

I’m not sure if this has been asked but would an individual store’s security cams typically tie into the security cams for the whole mall? 
 

I guess I was thinking the mall security cams would just cover the mall’s common areas and the stores would sort of be on their own for that type of monitoring. Otherwise the guards would have to be looking at hundreds of views/monitors.

Maybe an anchor store have different arrangements?

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

IMO it is presumptuous. I advise most of those people to go write some fanfic, and let us know when their work gets picked up by a network 🤣🤣. The internet is full of self professed “experts” on everything from screen writing, education/curriculum, virology, and medical care, just to name a few. 🤦‍♀️You know what they say about a man who serves as his own lawyer. 

Yes, I agree.  I avoid fanfic in general (*cough* Rings Of Power *cough*).  I also don't appreciate it when "experts" weigh in on things too much.  But still think it is OK for us regular viewers to post "it took me out of the scene" comments.  

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

I forget where I heard it, but it seemed plausible to me:

This episode is taking place in October 2010, and Walter White was killed in September 2010. And since that massacre and his capture/death probably would have been a regional if not national news story that Mom might have seen, if Jeff tells Mom about the "50 year old high school teacher" who became super-rich, Mom is smart enough to put it together, remembering the news story from just a month ago. Seems plausible? I dunno...

In the trailer we see a vehicle at a crossroads.  I can imagine Gene is on the run again.  It would be good to see Carol Burnett again.  

I don't think the woman's voice in the trailer is Kim or Marion.  Maybe it's Francesca, reporting on the phone call.  

Edited July 27, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Simon Boccanegra]

4 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I don't think it was weeks that Jimmy was bringing them. Doesn't seem like it would take that long to plan this caper. But like you I was wondering about them getting sick of Cinnabons. I've had them, and they are a major indulgence -- very sweet, gooey, and heavy. However, obviously there are people (like Frank) who can handle it and love every bite.

I think the plan came to him very quickly; it was the gradual softening of the ground that took a while. It did seem to me to be unfolding over at least several weeks. Gene was reading up on football, contributing more to the discussions. They talked about several Huskers games played the night(s) before. His relationship with the guard who patrols the lot was improving. He needed a series of times for how long the stationary guard took to finish a Cinnabon, so he could have a reliable range. 

It's true there was a possibility they'd have gotten sick of Cinnabon, but pretty much any time I see an elaborate scam in a movie or a television show, I have to hand-wave the things that go right because it's what the story needs to happen. Sometimes the scam is scripted so elaborately that it's too much, and the viewer will get bogged down in "How did he know that she wouldn't...?" and "What would he have done if...?" This one wasn't too bad on that level, IMO.  

Another thing: Gene had to space out those visits. If he'd gone four times in one week, it would have been too suspicious, and there would have been a greater chance of his new friends getting sick of Cinnabon (and/or of him). 

[scenario]

28 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

I think the plan came to him very quickly; it was the gradual softening of the ground that took a while. It did seem to me to be unfolding over at least several weeks. Gene was reading up on football, contributing more to the discussions. They talked about several Huskers games played the night(s) before. His relationship with the guard who patrols the lot was improving. He needed a series of times for how long the stationary guard took to finish a Cinnabon, so he could have a reliable range. 

It's true there was a possibility they'd have gotten sick of Cinnabon, but pretty much any time I see an elaborate scam in a movie or a television show, I have to hand-wave the things that go right because it's what the story needs to happen. Sometimes the scam is scripted so elaborately that it's too much, and the viewer will get bogged down in "How did he know that she wouldn't...?" and "What would he have done if...?" This one wasn't too bad on that level, IMO.  

Another thing: Gene had to space out those visits. If he'd gone four times in one week, it would have been too suspicious, and there would have been a greater chance of his new friends getting sick of Cinnabon (and/or of him). 

The guard said his wife would get mad at him if she found out he was eating the Cinnabon. So he doesn't buy it himself very often and its a treat for him. 

The mentality is, It's not good for me so I can't buy one myself but turning down a gift would be impolite. So the only time he gets to eat them is when Gene brings them. It will be a while before he'd get sick of them. Plus, they always seemed to talk about football and the games are once a week so he probably went once or twice a week for a few weeks. 

[BC4ME]

I think this has been at least touched upon but if this has specifically been brought up I apologize. So if Jeff knew about Saul to the point where he says all it would take is a phone call, wouldn't Saul's easily known culpability (whether money laundering or similar) likely be due to his association with Walt. Especially since, people keen on exact timelines point out that Walt would have just died/been caught a month earlier in Sept and probably made news? If that's true, wouldn't Jeff pick up on the reference to Walt? I get the idea it was a big deal in Albuquerque? As in locals knew details about Walt's life if they were paying attention, as Jeff seemed to be. If it were simple money laundering, how many cab drivers would know enough about it that they would think they could turn Gene in?

[peeayebee]

I'm not sure if Walt's story would become national news. Of course it's a big story. Multiple murders, including DEA agents, a huge drug operation, etc., so it would probably be in the newspapers, but I don't know if the network's evening news broadcasts would cover it. And I don't see Jeff as being someone who reads a newspaper. Maybe not even watching the news.

I was wondering if Gene would even be aware that Walt was dead. I certainly can see him following the news there, so it's possible.

[ShadowFacts]

5 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I'm not sure if Walt's story would become national news. Of course it's a big story. Multiple murders, including DEA agents, a huge drug operation, etc., so it would probably be in the newspapers, but I don't know if the network's evening news broadcasts would cover it. And I don't see Jeff as being someone who reads a newspaper. Maybe not even watching the news.

I was wondering if Gene would even be aware that Walt was dead. I certainly can see him following the news there, so it's possible.

I think it was national news, wasn't Charlie Rose talking about it on the tv in the bar In New Hampshire?

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

It's true there was a possibility they'd have gotten sick of Cinnabon, but pretty much any time I see an elaborate scam in a movie or a television show, I have to hand-wave the things that go right because it's what the story needs to happen. Sometimes the scam is scripted so elaborately that it's too much, and the viewer will get bogged down in "How did he know that she wouldn't...?" and "What would he have done if...?" This one wasn't too bad on that level, IMO.  

I don't think it's really a problem--if the person didn't do the right thing, the plan would fail. That's the nature of a con. If he'd gotten sick of Cinnabon the plan would have stopped.

41 minutes ago, BC4ME said:

I think this has been at least touched upon but if this has specifically been brought up I apologize. So if Jeff knew about Saul to the point where he says all it would take is a phone call, wouldn't Saul's easily known culpability (whether money laundering or similar) likely be due to his association with Walt. Especially since, people keen on exact timelines point out that Walt would have just died/been caught a month earlier in Sept and probably made news? If that's true, wouldn't Jeff pick up on the reference to Walt? I get the idea it was a big deal in Albuquerque? As in locals knew details about Walt's life if they were paying attention, as Jeff seemed to be. If it were simple money laundering, how many cab drivers would know enough about it that they would think they could turn Gene in?

Would it matter if he made the connection? I mean, Gene obviously isn't with Walt now, he's trying to pretend he's not Saul. The guy already knows he's connected to some crimes from that. Would it matter if Saul mentioned that he'd met Walt along the way?

[Lalo Lives]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

IMO it is presumptuous. I advise most of those people to go write some fanfic, and let us know when their work gets picked up by a network 🤣🤣. The internet is full of self professed “experts” on everything from screen writing, education/curriculum, virology, and medical care, just to name a few. 🤦‍♀️You know what they say about a man who serves as his own lawyer. 

Agreed. But even non-experts can pick up on stuff that is weak.

Watching that terrible show-won’t name it, but it rhymes with Thuh Terrminul Llistt- and the protagonist falls, let’s call it 18 feet, lands on his hip, on rock, he bends in HALF, his head and feet almost meet SIDEWAYS, and he gets up to walk toward the camera and look at a shoulder wound. The shoulder wound concerns him. Not the shattered pelvis. Not the spine that now has many extra pieces. Not the crushed femur. I call mega horseshit. I dare anybody on this forum to fall 18 INCHES and land on a frigging LEGO and start walking normally. I stepped on one of my wife’s curlers the other day. I lost consciousness. I almost bled to death. I cannot see or hear. I’ve lost the use of my hands. I’m incontinent. It was horrid. And I broke a little toe.

but I’m made of sterner stuff.

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

On the contrary, Gene's visit was something Frank, especially, started to look forward to every day. His job is pretty much the same thing most of the day, so he had even more reason to look forward to it, want to eat it fresh. Not just the food, but his visit from Gene.

I'm incredibly habit-bound, so I'd be just the same.

2 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

I think the plan came to him very quickly; it was the gradual softening of the ground that took a while. It did seem to me to be unfolding over at least several weeks. Gene was reading up on football, contributing more to the discussions. They talked about several Huskers games played the night(s) before. His relationship with the guard who patrols the lot was improving. He needed a series of times for how long the stationary guard took to finish a Cinnabon, so he could have a reliable range. 

It's true there was a possibility they'd have gotten sick of Cinnabon, but pretty much any time I see an elaborate scam in a movie or a television show, I have to hand-wave the things that go right because it's what the story needs to happen. Sometimes the scam is scripted so elaborately that it's too much, and the viewer will get bogged down in "How did he know that she wouldn't...?" and "What would he have done if...?" This one wasn't too bad on that level, IMO.  

Another thing: Gene had to space out those visits. If he'd gone four times in one week, it would have been too suspicious, and there would have been a greater chance of his new friends getting sick of Cinnabon (and/or of him). 

1 hour ago, scenario said:

The guard said his wife would get mad at him if she found out he was eating the Cinnabon. So he doesn't buy it himself very often and its a treat for him. 

The mentality is, It's not good for me so I can't buy one myself but turning down a gift would be impolite. So the only time he gets to eat them is when Gene brings them. It will be a while before he'd get sick of them. Plus, they always seemed to talk about football and the games are once a week so he probably went once or twice a week for a few weeks. 

As an astute poster has already pointed out upthread, Jimmy's sad sack emotional outburst to cover up Jeffie's fall is actually going to help him with the Frank situation.

Frank seems like a really nice midwestern guy who wants to talk sports with his guy friends and not delve into deep emotional issues.

When Gene stops showing up with the Cinnabons, he will just chalk it up to Gene being embarrassed and will leave it at that.

It will not seem suspicious to him.

[Constantinople]

5 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Yes, I agree.  I avoid fanfic in general (*cough* Rings Of Power *cough*).  I also don't appreciate it when "experts" weigh in on things too much.  But still think it is OK for us regular viewers to post "it took me out of the scene" comments.

I agree, and it will vary from viewer to viewer depending on their personal experiences.

For example, it doesn't bother me that there isn't a single Cinnabon within Omaha city limits, and that not one of the fifteen Cinnabons in Nebraska are located in an indoor shopping mall.

It is a little odd that neither Frank nor Nick asked Gene what he was doing at the mall so late on a Sunday. Malls typically close at 5 or 6 pm on Sundays. We know it's Sunday because Frank asked Gene if he watched (the Nebraska-Texas football) game the night before. That game took place on Saturday, October 16, 2010. Frank also mentions it's 9:45 pm, so Nick will have to eat his Cinnabon while doing his rounds in the parking lot. So somehow we have a mall that appears to close at 9 pm on Sundays.

Even odder is that Marion got stuck in snow, at least if the events in Nippy are in chronological order, and there's no indication they weren't. But the total snowfall in Omaha in October 2010 was 0 inches.

https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/omaha/year-2010

Normally even that wouldn't bother me, but

• Nobody asks how they'll sell the stolen goods
• Nobody asks how much they can expect to make from stealing
• The flagship department store doesn't have its own security, as many do, with mall security covering common areas and entrances and parking lots
• The cliche of the robber hiding in the store bathroom
• The store manager doesn't leave the box outside
• Frank always sits away from the cameras when eating a Cinnabon
• Jeff recovers in time while Gene tells Frank a sob story
• Gene now has a reason not to return to the security guard's office
• We're apparently told, not shown, and not even in the episode itself but by people commenting on the episode, that the difference between Original Jeff and New Jeff is how Gene perceives them, even though so far everything has been told from the third person omniscient point of view

There may be other issues, but I'm not up for watching the episode again just yet.

At a certain point, I find it hard to suspend disbelief.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Constantinople
Corrected link

[Constantinople]

40 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think it was national news, wasn't Charlie Rose talking about it on the tv in the bar In New Hampshire?

Yes he was. He was interviewing Gretchen and Elliot who said Walt made little lasting contribution to Gray Matter. And at the start of Felina, Walt calls someone who works for Gretchen and Elliot, pretending to be from the New York Times.

The news about Walt must have been a pretty big story if Gretchen and Elliot are doing some kind of press tour. And the story would only get bigger after what's discovered at the end of Felina. 

[scenario]

7 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I agree, and it will vary from viewer to viewer depending on their personal experiences.

For example, it doesn't bother me that there isn't a single Cinnabon within Omaha city limits, and that not one of the fifteen Cinnabons in Nebraska are located in an indoor shopping mall.

It is a little odd that neither Frank nor Nick asked Gene what he was doing at the mall so late on a Sunday. Malls typically close at 5 or 6 pm on Sundays. We know it's Sunday because Frank asked Gene if he watched (the Nebraska-Texas football) game the night before. That game took place on Saturday, October 16, 2010. Frank also mentions it's 9:45 pm, so Nick will have to eat his Cinnabon while doing his rounds in the parking lot. So somehow we have a mall that appears to close at 9 pm on Sundays.

Even odder is that Marion got stuck in snow, at least if the events in Nippy are in chronological order, and there's no indication they weren't. But the total snowfall in Omaha in October 2010 was 0 inches.

https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/omaha/year-2010

Normally even that wouldn't bother me, but

• Nobody asks how they'll sell the stolen goods
• Nobody asks how much they can expect to make from stealing
• The flagship department store doesn't have its own security, as many do, with mall security covering common areas and entrances and parking lots
• The cliche of the robber hiding in the store bathroom
• The store manager doesn't leave the box outside
• Frank always sits away from the cameras when eating a Cinnabon
• Jeff recovers in time while Gene tells Frank a sob story
• Gene now has a reason not to return to the security guard's office
• We're apparently told, not shown, and not even in the episode itself but by people commenting on the episode, that the difference between Original Jeff and New Jeff is how Gene perceives them, even though so far everything has been told from the third person omniscient point of view

There may be other issues, but I'm not up for watching the episode again just yet.

At a certain point, I find it hard to suspend disbelief.

The other guys are followers. They expect that Gene will tell them later. They know their stealing expensive clothing so they assume a lot. The store manager doesn't want to be responsible for the box being stolen. 

The change in how Jeff looks and behaves was to some extent unavoidable. To me its like complaining that they changed the actor who played Dumbledore in the Harry Potter movies. It couldn't be helped. 

Plus, it is fiction. If you look hard enough you can tear apart just about any fiction. It's just what's important to you. If you are a nitpicker don't watch any movie or TV series that has any science or medicine in it. They almost always get it wrong. 

[Lalo Lives]

14 minutes ago, scenario said:

The other guys are followers. They expect that Gene will tell them later. They know their stealing expensive clothing so they assume a lot. The store manager doesn't want to be responsible for the box being stolen. 

The change in how Jeff looks and behaves was to some extent unavoidable. To me its like complaining that they changed the actor who played Dumbledore in the Harry Potter movies. It couldn't be helped. 

Plus, it is fiction. If you look hard enough you can tear apart just about any fiction. It's just what's important to you. If you are a nitpicker don't watch any movie or TV series that has any science or medicine in it. They almost always get it wrong. 

GPH

[anoninrva]

28 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The news about Walt must have been a pretty big story if Gretchen and Elliot are doing some kind of press tour. And the story would only get bigger after what's discovered at the end of Felina. 

I mean, if Elon Musk or Bill Gates were somehow involved with a serial killer, it would be big news.  They couldn't just ignore it.  Edited to add, they are Billionaires, after all.  Not just random tech people.

Edited July 27, 2022 by anoninrva

[peeayebee]

50 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

It is a little odd that neither Frank nor Nick asked Gene what he was doing at the mall so late on a Sunday. Malls typically close at 5 or 6 pm on Sundays. We know it's Sunday because Frank asked Gene if he watched (the Nebraska-Texas football) game the night before. That game took place on Saturday, October 16, 2010. Frank also mentions it's 9:45 pm, so Nick will have to eat his Cinnabon while doing his rounds in the parking lot. So somehow we have a mall that appears to close at 9 pm on Sundays.

I don't find it odd that they don't ask Gene what he's doing there. He starts out by telling Nick he wants to apologize for telling the shoplifter to call a lawyer. So, if I were either of those two guys, I would think that Gene finished up at the Cinnabon and came bearing gifts. As far as every time after that, both Frank and even Nick enjoyed Gene's company and certainly assumed Gene enjoyed theirs, too. Finally, when we last see Gene there, he breaks down and tells Frank that he is all alone. That underlines, to Frank, why Gene was there so much.

I didn't think about when the football games would be, so does that mean that it's only once a week that Gene visited? I can't recall if they were talking specifically each time about the previous night's game.

• Quote

  The flagship department store doesn't have its own security, as many do, with mall security covering common areas and entrances and parking lots

  I think we see a store security guard at one point looking at himself in the mirror. This may have been just as Jeff was emerging from the bathroom.

41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Yes he was. He was interviewing Gretchen and Elliot who said Walt made little lasting contribution to Gray Matter. And at the start of Felina, Walt calls someone who works for Gretchen and Elliot, pretending to be from the New York Times.

The news about Walt must have been a pretty big story if Gretchen and Elliot are doing some kind of press tour. And the story would only get bigger after what's discovered at the end of Felina. 

I can't remember the details of the interview. Why were they doing it? Was it just to counteract any bad publicity surrounding Walt, a former colleague?

Nevertheless, I'll say again that I don't have a problem believing Jeff was unaware of the Walter White story. Marion may be aware. I can see her reading and watching the news and particularly picking up on this since it happened in Albuquerque. I guess she could have told Jeffy about it since he used to live there. 🤷‍♀️

[Lalo Lives]

Wasn’t the primary reason for Saul to visit the security office with the Cinnabons to thank the guard for calling the medical folks when Saul fainted?

He did him a “SOLID.”

[gallimaufry]

41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Even odder is that Marion got stuck in snow, at least if the events in Nippy are in chronological order, and there's no indication they weren't. But the total snowfall in Omaha in October 2010 was 0 inches.

To be fair, I would never have known the date were it not for this forum and articles in the press.  It does strike me as odd that their plot relies on it having been snowing for some time and yet they set it in October but only because I know they are quite meticulous and they do have a calendar.  It makes me wonder if they had a different date in mind and the baseball references are the mistake.

41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

•  Nobody asks how they'll sell the stolen goods
• Nobody asks how much they can expect to make from stealing

They may have done this offscreen but since Jeffie and friend are hardly Moriarty figures, I didn't mind this. 

41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

• The flagship department store doesn't have its own security, as many do, with mall security covering common areas and entrances and parking lots

I'm not sure how common this is but I'm willing to believe there either wasn't any or that Gene could have anticipated when the person was likely to be on annual leave without cover or what have you.  

41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

• The cliche of the robber hiding in the store bathroom

Surely this adds to the charm - Jimmy is giving them the ultimate low-rent scam.

41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

• The store manager doesn't leave the box outside

Why should they when there's a secure warehouse and it's not doing any harm?  Plus, she'd have to get the delivery driver (who I think was one of the scammers) to carry it out.

41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

• Frank always sits away from the cameras when eating a Cinnabon

I agree there's some convenience here but it seems to me that Jimmy wouldn't have known what the security guard office looked like before and would adapt around it.  However, as it turned out, he didn't need to, and the guard was happy to speak to Jimmy. In many ways, I'd rather have seen him adapt round this than the rather more forced "he slips and falls" problem which felt a little too much like an artificial "problem" for him to solve but at least that prompted him to raise the issue of Chuck.

41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

• Jeff recovers in time while Gene tells Frank a sob story

I mean, how long would somebody normally be unconscious for?  He vamps for as much time is needed.

41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

• Gene now has a reason not to return to the security guard's office

Surely this is a plus of the plan?  He knows he has this in his back pocket and he knows that using it actually makes his life more, not less, easy.

41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

• We're apparently told, not shown, and not even in the episode itself but by people commenting on the episode, that the difference between Original Jeff and New Jeff is how Gene perceives them, even though so far everything has been told from the third person omniscient point of view

I don't really understand this - Jeff is the same character.  It's a nice hand-waive to imagine that it represents the change in how Gene perceives the character but... at the end of the day, it was just a necessary recast.  (And actually, I find the new Jeff a lot more watchable than the old one who was great as the menacing eyes in 401 but really annoying in 501 - I get that was the point but still, an episode of him like that would have driven me up the wall.)

41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

There may be other issues, but I'm not up for watching the episode again just yet.

At a certain point, I find it hard to suspend disbelief.

I know what you mean and it's sad it didn't work for you but personally I don't find any of these things especially egregious.  The bit that worked least for me are the artificial shoe polish slip which felt like a bit of a cliche and you're right that there's clearly an error in the calendar although it's clear that you're not really meant to question the calendar too deeply.

[Dev F]

54 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Nevertheless, I'll say again that I don't have a problem believing Jeff was unaware of the Walter White story.

Wait, why does Jeff have to be unaware of the Walter White story? I thought the whole point was that he does know what Saul was talking about when he mentions the "fifty-year-old high school chemistry teacher." He's saying, You heard about Walter White's criminal empire? That was all thanks to me, and I can do the same thing for you.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Wait, why does Jeff have to be unaware of the Walter White story? I thought the whole point was that he does know what Saul was talking about when he mentions the "fifty-year-old high school chemistry teacher." He's saying, You heard about Walter White's criminal empire? That was all thanks to me, and I can do the same thing for you.

That's how I took it. If Saul thought it was bad for him to know, he would never have said it--but I assumed he already knew because why else would Jeff think he'd found a big catch in Gene?

[Penman61]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

That's how I took it. If Saul thought it was bad for him to know, he would never have said it--but I assumed he already knew because why else would Jeff think he'd found a big catch in Gene?

Oh. I hadn’t thought that Gene was assuming Jeff knew of Walter White. I need to watch that scene again.

Either way, though, why should Jeff believe him? Does it make it any more believable if Gene’s referring to someone in the news? Some dude at a bar points at Michael Phelps on TV and sez, “Yeah, I taught him the butterfly.” I mean, Jeff is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, is he?

[ShadowFacts]

55 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Oh. I hadn’t thought that Gene was assuming Jeff knew of Walter White. I need to watch that scene again.

Either way, though, why should Jeff believe him? Does it make it any more believable if Gene’s referring to someone in the news? Some dude at a bar points at Michael Phelps on TV and sez, “Yeah, I taught him the butterfly.” I mean, Jeff is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, is he?

I'm not quite sure, it might have come up when Jeffy was sick of running around "like an asshole" and was maybe on the verge of quitting, and Gene had to reel him back in.  Without context, it would have been just hyperbole and not very convincing, so I think Jeffy knew the general outlines of what Saul was wanted for. 

[Penman61]

12 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm not quite sure, it might have come up when Jeffy was sick of running around "like an asshole" and was maybe on the verge of quitting, and Gene had to reel him back in.  Without context, it would have been just hyperbole and not very convincing, so I think Jeffy knew the general outlines of what Saul was wanted for. 

Don’t want to belabor this minor point (but watch me), so I’ll just say that anyone telling me that they had some unevidenced connection to a notorious nationwide news story renders whatever appeal they’re making to me weaker, not stronger. It makes them just sound like a blowhard at the end the bar. But this is why I am not currently racing around Macy’s with armfuls of Armanis and Air Jordans, hoping to stick it to the Man or some tish…

Edited July 28, 2022 by Penman61

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I can't remember the details of the interview. Why were they doing it? Was it just to counteract any bad publicity surrounding Walt, a former colleague?  

They had just established a grant to fund drug treatment centers.  Charlie Rose asked them if this was to battle bad press because of their association with Walter White, and of course they denied it.  

*****

I have zero doubt Jeff knew Saul was a criminal on the run and of Saul's association with Walter White.  He threatened to "pick up the phone and it's bye bye Saul Goodman".

Jeff also "fell in with a bad crowd back in Albuquerque".  He would have known about the blue meth and the mysterious Heisenberg who created it.  Frankly, I'm amazed that even Old Jeff did not fathom how dangerous it was to mess around with a Drug Mob Consigliere.    

Edited July 28, 2022 by PeterPirate

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, Dev F said:

Wait, why does Jeff have to be unaware of the Walter White story? I thought the whole point was that he does know what Saul was talking about when he mentions the "fifty-year-old high school chemistry teacher." He's saying, You heard about Walter White's criminal empire? That was all thanks to me, and I can do the same thing for you.

I just rewatched that scene, and I see no evidence that Jeff knew what Gene was referencing or that Gene was telling him the story of Walter White knowing that Jeff knew what he was talking about. 

[BC4ME]

9 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I just rewatched that scene, and I see no evidence that Jeff knew what Gene was referencing or that Gene was telling him the story of Walter White knowing that Jeff knew what he was talking about. 

Me either so my question is, if Saul was known enough for Jeff to to know him and realize he could pick up the phone and get him in trouble, then what would make Saul that famous if not for Walter White.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, BC4ME said:

Me either so my question is, if Saul was known enough for Jeff to to know him and realize he could pick up the phone and get him in trouble, then what would make Saul that famous if not for Walter White.

If Jeff already knew that Saul and Walt were connected, he'd have no reason to react to him mentioning the guy, after all.

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I just rewatched that scene, and I see no evidence that Jeff knew what Gene was referencing or that Gene was telling him the story of Walter White knowing that Jeff knew what he was talking about. 

How does he not know? He's aware that Saul is a fugitive ripe for blackmailing ("All I have to do is pick up the phone and it's bye-bye, Saul Goodman"), he understands that Saul is someone who can get him in on the criminal high life, but he's unaware of why Saul is on the run or what his most significant criminal connection was? That's certainly not how I read it.

My assumption is that Jeff saw some news coverage along the lines of the American Greed episode featuring Saul and at least knew the rough contours of Saul's connection to Walt. Otherwise I don't see why he would've thought to blackmail him at all.

59 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

If Jeff already knew that Saul and Walt were connected, he'd have no reason to react to him mentioning the guy, after all.

Well, no, Saul's point isn't just that he knew Walt, it's that he was instrumental to his success. His implicit point was I can do for you what I did for him, which probably isn't something the coverage would've made clear, since I'm not sure it's even true.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Dev F

[Cinnabon]

11 minutes ago, Dev F said:

How does he not know? He's aware that Saul is a fugitive ripe for blackmailing ("All I have to do is pick up the phone and it's bye-bye, Saul Goodman"), he understands that Saul is someone who can get him in on the criminal high life, but he's unaware of why Saul is on the run or what his most significant criminal connection was? That's certainly not how I read it.

My assumption is that Jeff saw some news coverage along the lines of the American Greed episode featuring Saul and at least knew the rough contours of Saul's connection to Walt. Otherwise I don't see why he would've thought to blackmail him at all.

Well, no, Saul's point isn't just that he knew Walt, it's that he was instrumental to his success. His implicit point was I can do for you what I did for him, which probably isn't something the coverage would've made clear, since I'm not sure it's even true.

Agree. I didn’t think Jeff knowing that Saul was wanted by the FBI and why (at least generally) was even in question. Otherwise, why would he even think of trying to blackmail him?

[peeayebee]

11 minutes ago, Dev F said:

How does he not know? He's aware that Saul is a fugitive ripe for blackmailing ("All I have to do is pick up the phone and it's bye-bye, Saul Goodman"),

I'm getting all confused. Like I've said -- I THINK I've said -- my memory is terrible. When does Jeff say that bolded part?

I rewatched the the Jeff scenes from 'Smoke' and 'Magic Man,' and although he's kinda scary and intimidating, I'm not sure he's doing anything other than bullying Gene, getting him to admit he's Saul Goodman.

Then in this ep I tried to watch all the Jeff scenes, but maybe I missed one. I must have. 

[Dev F]

14 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I'm getting all confused. Like I've said -- I THINK I've said -- my memory is terrible. When does Jeff say that bolded part?

That's at the beginning of this episode, when Jeff is confronting Gene about homing in on his mom. In the previous episodes it's all subtextual, as blackmail often is, but it seems pretty clear that he's not just looking for an autograph. He brings his friend with him to the mall as a witness, tells Gene he's never more than five minutes away by cab, and says of Gene's anemic rendition of Saul's catchphrase, "A little rusty, but you'll do better next time."

And none of this is stuff a halfway normal person would think they could get away with just because they saw a celebrity living in a new town, absent any reason to think he can be blackmailed. Surely we're not meant to think that Jeff is just a weirdo with poor boundaries who accidentally stumbled onto the one celebrity who couldn't say no to his creepy overtures!

Edited July 28, 2022 by Dev F

[sistermagpie]

45 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Well, no, Saul's point isn't just that he knew Walt, it's that he was instrumental to his success. His implicit point was I can do for you what I did for him, which probably isn't something the coverage would've made clear, since I'm not sure it's even true.

I wasn't talking about that reaction--Jeff was obviously pursuaded by the pitch Gene was making. I meant that if Jeff already knew that Saul and Walt were connected, which it seemed to me he would for the reasons you mentioned, he'd have no reason to have some obvious reaction to the fact that Gene was mentioning Walt. There'd be no reaction like, "OMG, you're talking about Walter White! The meth chem teacher!" Because he already knows Gene knows Walt and that Gene was part of Walt's crimes. It's the exact thing he's threatening him with. Gene's just putting a positive spin on it here.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I wasn't talking about that reaction--Jeff was obviously pursuaded by the pitch Gene was making. I meant that if Jeff already knew that Saul and Walt were connected, which it seemed to me he would for the reasons you mentioned, he'd have no reason to have some obvious reaction to the fact that Gene was mentioning Walt. There'd be no reaction like, "OMG, you're talking about Walter White! The meth chem teacher!" Because he already knows Gene knows Walt and that Gene was part of Walt's crimes. It's the exact thing he's threatening him with. Gene's just putting a positive spin on it here.

Ah. got it, exactly. Especially since the scene plays with Jeff still being skeptical of Gene's pitch, and it's only when it turns out that his buddy is persuaded and is ready to take his place that he decides to stay in the game.

[PeterPirate]

54 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Ah. got it, exactly. Especially since the scene plays with Jeff still being skeptical of Gene's pitch, and it's only when it turns out that his buddy is persuaded and is ready to take his place that he decides to stay in the game.

And that right there is the problem.  Old Jeff would not have been skeptical of Gene's plan.  It would have been the buddy who needed the nudging.  No wonder there is confusion.  

I knew this was going to happen:  

On 7/2/2022 at 6:23 PM, PeterPirate said:

I got a Bewitched vibe from this, as if the new actor is not going to bring the same level of intensity.  

That's not the only example.  Old Lionel on The Jeffersons and Old Becky on Roseanne were awesome characters.  Their replacements acted as if they were just happy to be onscreen.   

I really can't blame the new actor, however.  He played his part the way it was written.  If anything, it was the casting of Carol Burnett as the domineering mother that caused the change.  

Edited July 28, 2022 by PeterPirate

[gallimaufry]

57 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

And that right there is the problem.  Old Jeff would not have been skeptical of Gene's plan.  It would have been the buddy who needed the nudging.  No wonder there is confusion.  

I believe I read/heard that the script was written before the cast shift was known about.  Even so, I find it difficult to predict how a character we've only spent a few minutes with prior would react to any circumstance.  I don't have a problem thinking either Jeff would need nudging into what is blatantly a trap or a play of some kind.  If anything, I think the script let Gene off lightly by not making it tougher to sucker Jeff in.

That said, it was interesting that the actor they chose was someone who originally read for Jeff.  I feel like they cast the first actor based on 401 where the primary consideration was having really menacing eyes whereas in 610, the character needed a lot more dimensions.  Not that the original actor couldn't have done all that I'm sure, but where Jeff2 loses to Jeff1 on physical presence, he clearly has a tremendous range and nuance that the part benefitted from here, though it possibly makes the differences more obvious (though I forgot about the recast personally after the initial shot in the cab).  I actually prefer new Jeff quite a bit  but to be fair we weren't supposed to find 501 Jeff enjoyable to watch and I'm sure I'm doing a disservice to the original actor.

Either way though, I do think the new actor did a magnificent job under difficult and frankly thankless circumstances.