S01.E07: To Laugh, To Lie, To Flatter, To Face

[CountryGirl]

Quote

It’s a new age with a new Lord Protector, and Edward, now free from his uncle Somerset’s influence is emboldened to pursue ever more ruthless Protestant reforms and to seek new alliances. Mary and Elizabeth both find themselves at the mercy of the new regime and their zealous little brother.

Airdate: July 31, 2022

[Salacious Kitty]

No new episode tonight. ☹️

[CountryGirl]

Well, that’s disappointing. 

[AntFTW]

Didn't expect Edward to start dying this season. I thought they would have done a time jump for the next season.

[ferjy]

This is getting dark. It started out with Thomas Seymour’s bare backside and parties, next thing we know his head is being brutally lopped off, falcons defeathered alive, now people being burned and thrown down concrete steps, the princesses being threatened to be married off to whomever Edward pleases. I didn’t realize Edward had that much power. He’s a right little monster. Someone needs to give him a good spanking. 😉 

And may I say, Romola Garai is superb in this. She is taking the limelight away from Alicia von Rittberg.

Edited August 1, 2022 by ferjy
My fingers have a mind of their own!

[Razzberry]

Oh no, the  dreaded cough of death.  Can't say that I'll miss his tantrums, bird pluckings, or Burning Man entertainments.

So much scratching, clawing, scheming and cursing by power-mad courtiers.  It's bound to get even darker.  Nice to see Amy depicted.

[PinkRibbons]

This show is just ruining me for other period dramas. I mean, I don't think I ever believed anyone would dramatize Mary's almost-flight to Spain (totally happened, totally came down the wire before she backed out). I'm starting to think that the role of Mary is meant to be a template for Elizabeth moving forward. At the moment Elizabeth isn't particularly committed to any particular ideal, she doesn't seem particularly pious, nor does she seem to care or know much about England beyond her doorstep. Mary's fierce loyalty to England is showing Elizabeth what a queen looks like, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's setting up her taking on some of Mary's stalwartness.

Speaking of queens, man I love Lady Jane and her interplay with Elizabeth. That very nasty side of Elizabeth isn't usually portrayed and Alicia does it really well, that kind of hurting someone else to make yourself feel better. And Jane is wonderful because she is very likely the only person on the show who is Elizabeth's intellectual equal, and therefore is not afraid of her. It also lays groundwork for Elizabeth's later violent hatred of Jane's younger sister Catherine. If anyone can face Elizabeth and call her out on lying, it's Jane. I did love Alicia's acting during her speech at court because yes, these men need to stop sexualizing a young girl and they needed to hear that. (Also, why did Edward receive her with such coldness? It's not her fault the Danes pulled out of the agreement, they should have met her with consolation for her own insulted pride, not hostility.)

Mary writing to the Danes and telling them Elizabeth is a whore's bastard was a genius move because you have no idea if she was trying to spite her sister or save her. Yes, Elizabeth is humiliated, but no, she isn't taken away to be forcefully married. I thought it was a pretty bold move to begin with that they were trying to marry her to someone so high up when Elizabeth's legitimacy has plagued her her whole life. A situation where she would definitely become queen of another nation is a bit of a stretch - marrying her off to a younger son or a high noble of another country sounds more feasible. Anyway, this was a superb setup to Mary's later paranoia about Elizabeth plotting against her. The scene with the two of them together was amazing, they kept going from loving each other to hating each other.

Of course the first episode we see Edward happy is the episode when he shows up deathly ill. I felt it came a little out of nowhere, but on reflection tbh the real Edward's illness did seem to come out of nowhere. This show has never done the now-disproven stereotype of Edward as fragile or sickly. I don't think there's even a complete consensus on what killed him. I wouldn't have minded if they'd at least shown someone discreetly coughing in his direction in an earlier episode, they're clearly going with the consumption theory (which is the most popular) and that does have to be caught from someone. Otherwise he was a treat to watch this episode, between him being happy and kingly (really as a king he's hardly any worse than his father was, even at his young age) and still a little childish about the actual repercussions of marrying Elizabeth off. I bet he was at least a little relieved she wouldn't be leaving England.

3 hours ago, ferjy said:

And may I say, Romola Garai is superb in this. She is taking the limelight away from Alicia von Rittberg.

Man I hope she gets some recognition for this. Romola's been a very steadily working actress but I don't feel like she's ever gotten the props she deserved. Saoirse Ronan outshone her in Atonement, Anya Taylor-Joy was there in the Miniaturist (no hate to Anya, I love both her and Romola's Emmas.) I've loved her since I Capture the Castle.

Robert, you deserved that smackdown from your dad and Elizabeth was right, you are just throwing her back into the shithole she just climbed out of. And didn't he think a little about her "a woman who loves you wouldn't do this" line? Because by not giving him a chance she is pretty clearly saving his life from Thomas's fate.

Only two things really bugged me this episode, and they were cases of being way too on the nose: The "Make England Great...Again", I mean...could anyone have delivered that line without it being cringy? And Mary's final remarks about burning England - yes show, we all know what she's famous for. I thought we were exploring the parts of her that haven't been done to death.

I really hope this gets another season. Between Jane Grey and Mary's reign there aren't enough episodes to cover the upcoming shenanigans in the detail they deserve.

[Spartan Girl]

Dudley burning all of Mary’s things just made me go, “Dude, you’re going to wish you never did that…”

Edited August 1, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Steph J]

7 hours ago, ferjy said:

And may I say, Romola Garai is superb in this. She is taking the limelight away from Alicia von Rittberg.

Week after week, I'm amazed by how much I'm loving watching Mary, an historical figure who is very easy to set up as a cardboard villain. The writing has been great at making her complex, but Garai's performance is what makes her scenes so riveting. I'm really hoping that the show slows down the pace of events next season so that they can keep Garai for a couple more seasons.

3 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Only two things really bugged me this episode, and they were cases of being way too on the nose: The "Make England Great...Again", I mean...could anyone have delivered that line without it being cringy?

I honestly couldn't believe they did that, it's such a lazy and unimaginative way to underscore that someone is a villain. I mean, why not just throw in some Nazi iconography while you're at it?

[jenn31]

11 hours ago, ferjy said:

people being burned

I had to fast forward that scene. I don’t know how they could all sit there watching it. 

7 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

I did love Alicia's acting during her speech at court

Although I also believe Romola is outshining Alicia, I have to agree Alicia was really good in that scene. And for most of this episode. I still don’t like her voice thing, but she was much better in this episode. 

[Haleth]

Yes, her little girl voice is grating but I suppose it was a directing choice to maintain the illusion that she's still a naive teenager.  Listen to her voice get lower and more commanding as she is educated.

I say it every week, the best part of this show is the interplay among the siblings.  With acted dramas focusing on Henry and then skipping right to Mary and Elizabeth, we are finally getting an interesting take on the years in between and a view of family dynamics.  I knew Mary and Elizabeth were close when they were young, but don't think I'd ever heard how Edward fit in with them.  It was oh so complicated.

[AntFTW]

12 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

At the moment Elizabeth isn't particularly committed to any particular ideal, she doesn't seem particularly pious, nor does she seem to care or know much about England beyond her doorstep.

I think that's reasonable because she just wants to be able to exercise her own autonomy. She wants to be left alone and not be someone else's pawn for once.

[AntFTW]

21 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Mary writing to the Danes and telling them Elizabeth is a whore's bastard was a genius move because you have no idea if she was trying to spite her sister or save her. Yes, Elizabeth is humiliated, but no, she isn't taken away to be forcefully married. I thought it was a pretty bold move to begin with that they were trying to marry her to someone so high up when Elizabeth's legitimacy has plagued her her whole life. A situation where she would definitely become queen of another nation is a bit of a stretch - marrying her off to a younger son or a high noble of another country sounds more feasible. Anyway, this was a superb setup to Mary's later paranoia about Elizabeth plotting against her. The scene with the two of them together was amazing, they kept going from loving each other to hating each other.

I love the dynamic between the two. I love the performances here. I haven't watched a lot of Tudor material so admittedly, I'm standing on shaky ground when it comes to onscreen portrayals of this time. Most of the material I've seen doesn't dive much into the relationship between these siblings: Mary, Elizabeth, and Edward.

This is the first show or movie that I've seen that really shows the relationships between them and how they were navigated. The show is doing a really good job of showing the age differences between them through their characteristics, with Edward and Elizabeth being much closer in age and significantly younger than Mary which they portray brilliantly, while Mary being the much older sibling and that maturity really showing onscreen.

Edited August 1, 2022 by AntFTW

[CountryGirl]

This was another good episode, the Mary scenes especially, and there was very little of Elizabeth in it at all (and this is said as a fan of this Elizabeth).

The opening with King Edward burning alive a Catholic priest and having it go on and on and on was yikes. Apparently, he had 2 people burned alive and, of course, it's compared to Mary having around 300 burned alive, but he was a teenager. One shudders to think how many more might he have killed if he have lived well into adulthood.

Then him apologizing to Elizabeth, who along with Dudley, Rob, and other council members, are watching this man as he screams. 

Uncle Edward is free from the tower. Enjoy your freedom while it lasts, Ed. He even gets to rejoin the council, but it's clear the council is firmly held in Dudley's grasp. His plans include ending the war in Scotland, reforming the church, ending dissent (good luck with that), and I couldn't help but roll my eyes at the "Make England Great Again." 

Edward, continuing to be a PITA, thinks his sisters should be seen and not heard and wants to marry them off to Protestants. 

Uncle Edward wants to argue with Dudley about his plans and doesn't get that he's lost all his chips between his brother's fall and his idiotic seizing of the King. Dudley shutting it down by telling him, "I let you out because you're my oldest friend. Don't make me regret it." Oh, but he will.

Elizabeth's disgust over learning she is slated for an arranged marriage with a Danish prince was palpable and she is equally shocked that her brother has similar plans for Mary. 

This exchange, right here:

Showing he is still very much a child, he snits about at least she gets to meet him unlike him who never got to meet Mary, Queen of Scots. I had to laugh when Elizabeth points out that Mary QoS was all of five.

Her leaving the room when it's clear Edward will not be swayed as he is the king after all and Rob following after her. I love that she scoffs at his offer to talk to the king as they both know the better bet is to sway Rob's father.

Rob's line of "The Danes can't have you. England's not done with you yet" is the understatement of the year.

Bishop Gardiner gets the task of telling Mary Edward's plans. Any scene with Romola just elevates everything, doesn't it? She's understandably pissed off at the news and even more so when she learns Dudley and company are raiding Catholic churches.

Dudley isn't in the mood for Mary's protests and takes Gardiner into custody, bound for the Tower, and tells Mary that she will wed whoever Edward chooses. Whether she's allowed to practice her faith will be up to him, to which Mary's full fury explodes. But it's 16th century Tudor England and very much a man's world so Dudley sets fire to the ill-gotten church goods.

Foreshadowing the future, Mary screams out: "You will burn for this!" Well, he won't burn, but she will get her revenge.

The Spanish ambassador thinks she needs to speak to her cousin, the King of Spain, but she claps back that she is not Spain's plaything but a princess of England and her brother's heir.

The Tudor sisters meet and, as always, these are my favorite scenes. Mary wants Elizabeth to run interference and Elizabeth knows Edward isn't going to listen to her about a match for Mary anymore than he will for herself. Mary, who is running scared, is decidedly angry that Elizabeth won't take up her cause, even resorting to accepting Thomas' proposal, which led to Thomas committing a treason. That's a bit unfair, Mary, and Elizabeth reminds her that she had no control over Thomas' actions.

But she will concede that she should have listened to Mary all along and oh, when Mary comes over to wrap her in her arms and kiss her cheek, her love for Elizabeth winning out over her other emotions in the moment. It's just so true to siblings to watch her and Elizabeth and Edward interact with one another. 

Mary confides that the Ambassador thinks she should flee to Spain. Elizabeth thinks that a wise and they're off to the races again with another argument with Mary accusing Elizabeth of wanting her to leave and abandon her country so that she can be next in line. It's sowing the seeds of serious discord that will come between them in a few short years.

Elizabeth deciding to change course and meet with Edward to try and get some intel on the Danish prince is showing that she's learning, even adding in some smiles and enthusiasm. Too bad the only things Edward knows about him, besides the fact that he's a Protestant, is that he's 16 and likes to ride. LOL. Rob helpfully adds that he's illiterate and Elizabeth pretends not to care, saying she doesn't read or write Danish anyway. LOL again.

The Spanish ambassador plans to sneak Mary out of the country and it's easy to see none of this is sitting well with Mary or Pedro. 

Rob makes his feelings about Elizabeth known to his father who is having none of it, having no desire to see his sons end up in the Tower. Rob will meet with Amy again in the episode. Gotta have another triangle, I suppose.

I loved Elizabeth's red gown that she wore to meet the Danish prince.

A dead ringer for her portrait.

Rob, impeccable timing as ever, chooses that moment to confess his feelings and asks her to run away with him. I loved when she referred to him as "Thomas" and later, when she told him "Robert, the woman who loved you would never do this" as she marches up the stairs to her fate. Even though I do think there are feelings there, Elizabeth is already doing what she can to not suffer the same fate as her mother.

I mean, just look at her face here.

To her relief, she learns that the Danish king turned down the offer of marriage. Elizabeth assumes Henry Grey has been telling tales since Jane out and out called her a whore.

One of my favorite moments of the series is Elizabeth dressing down the men in the room, reminding them she was proven innocent, and shaming them by asking if they live in fear of a girl of 14 and 15. For once, they are silent.

That's when learns she has Mary to thank for the marriage prospect falling through as she is the one who wrote the message that Elizabeth is the daughter of the "great whore," Anne Boleyn. The epitome of being cruel to be kind.

And then hearing Edward try, but fail, to stifle a cough and like others, I wasn't expecting that this soon.

Much less, him collapsing on his bed later that night.

I had no idea how close RL Mary came to leaving England for Spain, but good for her for standing her ground and choosing to stay in her country. Her mother may have been born and raised in Spain, but she embraced the country to which she journeyed to marry Arthur, Prince of Wales. 

We get this great shot of Mary, hair down, in a cape. 

And again, another foreshadowing line: "If England has to burn to stop this evil...then I will see it done."

How is there only one episode left???

But they are calling E08 a season finale. So there had better be a second season, at minimum, as there is so much story to tell. 

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Elizabeth's disgust over learning she is slated for an arranged marriage with a Danish prince was palpable and she is equally shocked that her brother has similar plans for Mary. 

This exchange, right here:

Showing he is still very much a child, he snits about at least she gets to meet him unlike him who never got to meet Mary, Queen of Scots. I had to laugh when Elizabeth points out that Mary QoS was all of five.

One thing that amazes me is that during such a time where the English monarchy had more raw power than it does today, and the daughters of the last monarch and sisters to the current monarch, and direct and immediate heirs, are still treated like shit. They get some deference for their social ranking, but that also makes them more valuable "assets" to other people so they still get the shitty end of the stick, just sold off to be wedded and bred.

Edited August 1, 2022 by AntFTW

[PinkRibbons]

Well I mean you could argue that Elizabeth is actually being treated as an incredibly valuable person, since whoever marries her is a delicate enough deal to lose your head over. That they wanted to marry Elizabeth into a position where she would be literal queen of another country (whereas that seems incredibly unlikely for her in England) does show that yes, she is a prize to be given away. But they also knew that once married she would be in a strong political role, trusted to essentially be another ambassador for England. Catherine of Aragon was Spain's chess piece but once she became Queen of England she ruled as regent, was involved in political goings-on and was certainly trusted to give advice to the king. Until she was you know...not. (Catherine's poor treatment and Henry's hands was insanely unheard-of, she was very well thought-of as being of a higher station than him, woman or not.)

And then also think of contemporary France, where Catherine D'Medici was a feared force of nature, even though she also was originally  "sold off" as a political pawn. I mean different times and everything, but either way a queen was generally about as powerful as a woman could get. I actually wonder that they haven't brought up that Mary by this age was very bitter about reaching past 30 and not having been married. Lots of possibles were brought up for her but they kept falling through. Most of Europe refused to accept her declaration of illegitimacy, and if Henry had married her off to a foreign court after declaring her a bastard, he knew she could gain a huge amount of power there and challenge his throne. As it was she was mostly kept alive by the little power her mother left behind - her strong connection to Spain. Marry her back into Spain or France and she could raise a Catholic army to dethrone her father in her favor. I mean Henry really pissed most of Europe off, she would have support. So they just kept her from marrying except for the occasional threat of marriage to Protestant princes who wouldn't let her keep her faith.

I think it's actually a pretty important thing to know about Mary: she desperately wanted to marry and have children. It wasn't even about having an heir, she just wanted to have kids - she really, really loved them and was Godmother to dozens of noble children. Really it's probably the only reason she and Elizabeth were on such good terms as long as they were. Anne Boleyn hurt Mary in a way that any homewrecker hurts the children of a marriage, but in this case dialed up to eleven. Mary lost access to her mother, she lost her material wealth, her title and status. There was no good reason for her to have anything to do with Elizabeth (for a while she was a servant to baby Elizabeth, but I think mostly the staff just let her stay in her room and not actually lower herself to that), much less love her. But she was there from the moment Elizabeth was born, and she watched as Elizabeth lost her own mother, became a bastard and was mistreated too. Elizabeth and Edward may have been the closest Mary thought she'd come to having children of her own.

This will probably become more prevalent in the show next season PLEASE give us another season.

[susannot]

We will definitely need another season.  There is so much more of the story left to tell.  A big part of the story coming up is the tale of Lady Jane Grey, one of history's most tragic figures.   Does anyone think the show has been setting us up to dislike her?  In her confrontation with Elizabeth she called Elizabeth "whore."  I've been trying to figure out why this should be so and the only thing I can think of is that in the upcoming tragic story of Jane, the show will entangle Elizabeth in the plot.  Even though, IIRC, Elizabeth was not implicated at all.

[PinkRibbons]

4 hours ago, susannot said:

Does anyone think the show has been setting us up to dislike her?  In her confrontation with Elizabeth she called Elizabeth "whore."  I've been trying to figure out why this should be so and the only thing I can think of is that in the upcoming tragic story of Jane, the show will entangle Elizabeth in the plot.  Even though, IIRC, Elizabeth was not implicated at all.

I don't think the show is trying to make us dislike her - for me at least it's the opposite. Elizabeth caught that "whore" comment for a. trying to make Jane feel bad about lying in the Thomas affair (even Elizabeth seemed to realize she couldn't get away with that one; Jane was right there to witness it and was very distinctly not an idiot - she did in fact do Elizabeth a favor by lying and Elizabeth throws it back at her) and b. giving her that gleeful spiel about how horrible sex and pregnancy will be for Jane while looking absolutely delighted at the idea.

Jane keeps trying to point out how similar the two girls are and Elizabeth keeps reacting really furiously to that. But in that end the people that supported Jane were the ones who later supported Elizabeth, and what happened to Jane (even with Elizabeth having absolutely nothing to do with it) is a really clear cautionary tale. Jane was kind, deeply pious, incredibly intelligent (so much so that she was well-known to be corresponding with leading intellectuals, it's part of why she was considered a better candidate than her mother whose claim was better than hers) and absolutely unbreakable in her beliefs. She arguably would have made a good queen if she'd had a right to the throne. But she didn't, and essentially she was ruined by the men around her who used her and let her take the fall. Elizabeth would have seen this and it would have affected how she handled her male advisors when she came to the throne. I also think that Jane is there to dig at Elizabeth because Elizabeth senses Jane is the better human being of the two girls. And what she'll see is that the better human being got royally screwed despite her goodness.

[tennisgurl]

On 7/31/2022 at 8:23 PM, PinkRibbons said:

The "Make England Great...Again", I mean...could anyone have delivered that line without it being cringy?

That line was so horribly cringe even the actor looked embarrassed at having to say it. We get it show, he's the bad guy now, him cheering at burning people alive and shoving elderly priests down stairs gave us a few clues. 

I really hope that there is another season, there is so much interesting stuff coming up. The death of Edward (if that doesn't happen next week), the Greys attempted take over, Mary's reign, I would love to see this shows take on everything that is to come. Another really good episode, the focus on the siblings is always a major highlight of the show, the balance between them being siblings and also being major players on the international stage. Did Mary mess up Elizabeth's perspective engagement to protect or hurt her? I can buy either one, all three siblings can be awful to each other but also do love each other, there is so much going on between them between the power and the personal. 

I am impressed by how many real lesser known events the show uses, even though they are also obviously taking some artistic license. Even if they seem like they're made up. Mary's almost trip to Spain and calling it off last minute seems like its made up for the sake of drama, but that really did happen, Edward suddenly collapsing as his sickness starts seems to be happening out of nowhere to add new stakes to the finale, but that does seem to be what happened, the idea that he was always a sickly child was never really true, and the soap opera forbidden love between Elizabeth and Robert does seem to be pretty similar to what most people have speculated about them, although we will probably never know for sure what went on between them behind closed doors. 

The burning was hard to watch, and we all know that England will have to brace itself for more of that in the future. Of course, Henry also executed tons of people for petty reasons, so maybe at this point they're just used to it. It seems like the people of England just couldn't win, Catholic or Protestant someone at the top wants to kill you. 

That shot of Mary with her hood on looking at the ship was lovely, the whole cast is great but Romola Garai is stealing the show as Mary. She's such a complicated historical figure and she plays her with so many layers. Sympathetic, strong, unweilding, angry, caring, intense.

Edited August 4, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Moxie Cat]

On 8/1/2022 at 7:54 AM, Haleth said:

Yes, her little girl voice is grating but I suppose it was a directing choice to maintain the illusion that she's still a naive teenager.  Listen to her voice get lower and more commanding as she is educated.

I give the actress a pass right now too. The showrunners must be planning to cover the next decade of Elizabeth's life at least (best case scenario!), until she becomes queen, so they have to adequately age the actress from about 14 to 25. I can imagine that direction, hair, makeup, etc. were all instructed to envision a teenager during this season. Otherwise, the time passage won't be believable in season 3 (hopefully!) when Elizabeth is waiting in the wings for the throne. 

I'm surprised too that we've already seen Edward's sickness, given that as far as I'm aware, this entire season has taken place during the first year of his reign. He's got a couple more years in him yet! I'm guessing that the second (please!) season will time-jump to approximately 1553. 

The only thing I don't like about this show is the animal abuse. It may be period- or historically-accurate and/or for characterization, but I have to FF through those scenes. So far we've had a cockfight, a dog shot, and a falcon skinned alive. I hope that's it for the rest of season. 

[Scarlett45]

On 8/7/2022 at 11:44 AM, Moxie Cat said:

I'm surprised too that we've already seen Edward's sickness, given that as far as I'm aware, this entire season has taken place during the first year of his reign. He's got a couple more years in him yet! I'm guessing that the second (please!) season will time-jump to approximately 1553. 

I think the timeline is condensed, compared to real life events. 

[andromeda331]

That burning was horrible and so was burning Mary's things. Gee I hope that doesn't come back to haunt him. 

I love the meeting of Elizabeth and Mary. I don't think Mary realizes Elizabeth doesn't have as much pull with Edward as she thinks or that Elizabeth was trying to get her out of the way by telling her to go to Spain. But I can see why she thinks that especially the latter. Elizabeth probably thinks Mary would be happier or at least safe there. She was uncomfortable for Mary at that antipope play. I like the hug. I was surprised that it was Mary who wrote the letter to the Danish. It really seemed like it would be Grey. 

Bad timing Robert. It didn't help that he sounded a little like Thomas there either. Ah, no you can't marry Elizabeth. Her being married off for political reasons is what happens.