S01.E05: Necessity Compels Me To Plague You

[CountryGirl]

 Elizabeth, changed by her experiences, is determined to not fall into the same traps she did when last she was at Chelsea, but the return of Thomas into her life is a new test for her. While the court has been rocked by Mary’s defiance, the Lord Somerset is still more concerned with raising funds for the war in Scotland. As rebellions spring up across the country, a secret meeting with the French Ambassador, without the knowledge of the council or the king, sees even his closest friend, the Lord Dudley, begin to doubt Somerset’s strategy.

Airdate: July 10, 2022

[ferjy]

I half expected The Beegees to burst into song after Elizabeth made her speech about staying alive, everyone dancing disco at the dance. “♪ Ah, ah, ah, ah... staying alive, staying alive. ♬”

Oh Elizabeth, what have you gotten yourself into? That was (appropriately) dark theme music at the end. I was glad when she decided against Thomas at the start of the episode, but then she succumbed. I didn’t realize he had a such a hold on her. Unless this is all dramatization only.   

[Glade]

This was sad and bleak - I wish they hadn't gone with the idea that Thomas manipulated her into sleeping with him again and that she actually wanted to marry him.  And yet again, she is compromised politically and will pay a price for what he's done. 

[brisbydog]

I am disappointed that they continue to depict this as a relationship and not abuse

[susannot]

Thomas Seymour was a hothead and a knave.  I can't believe that he shot Edward's little dog.  What exactly was his plan, anyway?  I presume he thought he would marry Elizabeth and rule as King through her.  Unfortunately the show keeps telling us that she was in love with him, which I do not believe for one second.  Good thing he lost his head or he probably would have embroiled Elizabth in his plot, causing her to lose her head as well.

Edited July 11, 2022 by susannot

[brisbydog]

What was with that sex scene? So uncomfortable. Her facial expressions were disturbing. I thought after her pregnancy scare she had learned her lesson. And the writers and Cullen can say it is a story of grooming and abuse but that is not what is being shown on screen 

[PinkRibbons]

This was a step down especially after last week. I mean, to begin with nowhere near enough Mary (although nice to see her without her hood!). What was really disappointing though was how Elizabeth, despite all her avowals of her young naive self being dead, appears to have learned absolutely nothing! What was all this talk about her marrying Thomas somehow fixing the rumors about her? This would only confirm them! Catherine Parr's marriage to Thomas Seymour was a scandal because of how quickly after Henry's death it was, and she at least had a history with him that mitigated the general horror. (I mean I'm sure most people heard about it and responded with "that is tacky, but yeah, they were totally gonna get married before Henry basically seized her away from him. Shoulda waited longer, but...okay.")

Elizabeth marrying Thomas with Catherine barely cold in the ground would confirm to everyone that she and he were carrying on an affair while they he was still married. That is terrible for Elizabeth's reputation. And she should know that marrying a commoner is not a simple thing for a Princess (especially since her own mother was a commoner and lost her frickin head partially because she had no status outside what her husband gave her), and that she should never consider it as done until the ceremony was concluded with witnesses. Celebrating in her house with everyone to see? Idiot! And inviting Thomas to bang her in the bed he shared with her stepmother (which even he noticed was fucked up, hence him not even going near it while boning away) just after she had an unmarried pregnancy scare? IDIOT!

I think what's bugging me here is that for a TV drama especially, this show has been shockingly historically accurate until now, and the real Elizabeth would have never done this. Not after the nightmare year she's had with Thomas and being sent away from Chelsea. Even if she had entertained marriage to him at this point, she would have figured out that she had to conduct herself in the most pristine manner possible until the question was settled. And that would mean barely looking at Thomas until the ceremony was concluded, much less throwing a party. Seriously, that's the whole reason Elizabeth survived this whole thing, historically. There were tons of witnesses to Thomas's inappropriate behavior when Catherine was still alive, but I don't believe there's any record of her having what to do with him after she was sent away. The real Elizabeth knew he was a powder keg and she had to step away.

Going back to actual history, I do appreciate the way they staged the attempted kidnapping of Edward and how much of a shitshow it was. I don't think I've ever seen that mishegas depicted on screen, and it was as awful as described. Thomas killed the king's dog. I don't remember that he beat the ever-loving hell out of Robert Dudley, but that didn't help. His plan was so undercooked and so stupid. Even if he had kidnapped Edward, what did he think, that he'd convince the boy to make him Lord Protector? Dumbass. Although considering that literally the only thing Thomas has on his side is charm, maybe that was the entirety of his plan. I do wish they'd shown how he was slyly currying favor with the king before this, slipping him money when Somerset wouldn't give him any, that kind of thing. I appreciated them showing Edward's threat against Somerset. Edward's diary survived long enough that we know his attitude to both his uncles was coooold. And I loved that that had it as Mary who tipped her brother off about Boulogne, it was a nice historical nod to how incredibly protective she herself was about England's French holdings.

I'm liking Lord Dudley (Robert's dad, and if you know about history, someone who's about to get REALLY important). I expected him to be cast as more of a weaselly villain type like they did for Henry Grey, but them showing how he genuinely loves his family, and overall the fact that he is very much a father figure goes a long way to explaining why the king came to rely on him. Because if there's one thing Edward needs and clearly isn't getting from his uncles, it's a father figure. Somerset may have ten kids but he clearly doesn't know how to behave with them. And Thomas doesn't care about anyone but himself.

We're coming up on a really interesting and not particularly well known episode in Elizabeth's life. I really want to see Mary and Edward reacting to their sister being arrested, especially Mary. She's on thin ice herself, and now her own sister, who Edward clearly prefers, can be arrested? It's like the days of Henry again, when any woman, no matter how high in status, can't be protected.

[Steph J]

3 hours ago, brisbydog said:

What was with that sex scene? So uncomfortable. Her facial expressions were disturbing. I thought after her pregnancy scare she had learned her lesson. And the writers and Cullen can say it is a story of grooming and abuse but that is not what is being shown on screen 

I felt like the purpose of that sex scene (the expression on her face and her body language, specifically) was to show that it is a grooming/abusive relationship. Mileage varies, of course, but I think that the show has depicted the relationship that way from the start. Elizabeth had a crush on Thomas, which he used as an in to gain her trust, which in turn allowed him to manipulate her into letting him cross more and more boundaries while convincing her that not only was it okay, but that she wanted him to do it.

To me, that sex scene was showing the collision between her romanticized idea of what's going on between her and Thomas and the stark reality that this is not a meeting of equals who are operating at the same level of experience and maturity, but of an inexperienced girl and a grown man who is completely controlling what's happening.

[Spartan Girl]

Thomas is a monster. That’s all I’ve got.

[Haleth]

Not only does he seduce a teenager, he shoots a dog?  And not just any dog, the king's dog?  Vile.

Elizabeth would know her value, even if she was a naive teenager.  She knew (lesser noble) women who were sent to the Tower for daring to marry without the king's permission.  She knew she and her sister had no agency of their own and only had status at the king's pleasure.  I guess the writers of this show want us to see her progression ("becoming") from a romantic dreamer (which seems unlikely) to the hardened, disciplined ruler.  Guess we'll have to go with that.  

[tennisgurl]

I'm really not sure about how the show is writing Thomas and Elizabeth. Some of their scenes do seem to be framed in a romantic light, but others, like during their icky sex scene, seem to be shot as disturbing, and Thomas himself is not a particularly sympathetic character, portrayed as a lout and a stupid asshole who ended the episode murdering a dog. I also don't really like them going with Elizabeth going so far as to sleep with Thomas again and even fully plan to marry him, even this younger more naïve Elizabeth would be smarter than to try and sneak into a marriage with a nobody without permission from her brother. Most of the rest of their relationship seemed to be based on actual historical fact, but this is going too far. We are now interesting a very interesting and formative time in Elizabeth's life, I am excited to see how it goes. 

I like the lord that Elizabeth is living with now, he's course but he's giving her the real talk she needs right now. 

On the other hand, Thomas's idiotic attempt to do...something to the king was pretty much exactly how it went down, including him killing Edward's dog. I am not sure about Robert Dudley being there, but it was just as ridiculous here as it sounds like it was in real life. I have no clue what his plan was, its like he thought "I can kidnap the king, and then results?" and that kidnapping or trying to hurt the king would someone turn out well for him. Did he think that he could force Edward to make him the new Lord Protector? Thomas really does run on only charm, he certainly doesn't have much in the way of brains. I have no idea what he was thinking. 

Lord Dudley is actually showing a lot of sense, he might be what Edward actually needs in an adviser right now. Definitely want to watch the Dudley family, they will certainly be important in the future. Edward Seymour on the other hand is obviously losing favor with the king and the rest of the court, you can really start to see him sealing his fate. 

[Dcs72]

One inaccuracy I would like to point out in this episode. When Elizabeth is summoned by Edward Seymour, he suggests King Eric XIV of Sweden as a potential husband for her. Eric XIV did not become King of Sweden until 1560. This potential match was first suggested by Eric's father King Gustav I in 1558, during Mary's reign. Interestingly, Mary was apparently not unreceptive to the offer, despite Gustav being an arch Protestant. She was howver annoyed by the fact that Elizabeth was approached first, without consulting her. Elizabeth, however, immediately informed Mary about the offer. Another reason for Mary's annoyance was that she feared Phillip II might think she had initiated the proposed match when she was actually supposed to be steering Elizabeth towards Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy, a close ally of Philip's, and, of course, a Catholic. Emmanuel Philibert had also been suggested as a potential husband for Mary, prior to her marriage to Philip.

[CountryGirl]

That was an incredibly dark episode. Learning that the Edward VI kidnap attempt pretty much went down as it did in real life was…something. What a moron! 

Poor Edward VI, to lose his beloved dog in such a horrific manner. He may be King, but he is still a child.

As is Elizabeth. So I cannot put blame on her shoulders with her interactions with Thomas, the sex included (which came off more as rape and given she couldn’t give consent, well, I would argue that’s exactly what it was). Though it was a decidedly different time than now, Elizabeth has no more emotional maturity than any other 15-16 year-old. Thomas is the adult, well into his 30s and is taking full advantage of that fact and her age and vulnerability. I’m so glad he’s about to get what’s coming to him.

[Spartan Girl]

I’m kind of hoping they torture Thomas next episode for killing the dog.

[taanja]

On 7/15/2022 at 7:49 PM, Spartan Girl said:

I’m kind of hoping they torture Thomas next episode for killing the dog.

I would say getting his head chopped off was a pretty harsh punishment.

[Scarlett45]

On 7/10/2022 at 5:07 PM, brisbydog said:

I am disappointed that they continue to depict this as a relationship and not abuse

The audience is supposed to see this as grooming and manipulation.
 

Elizabeth is young but she is intelligent and perceptive, whenever she asks Thomas an actual question he tries to gaslight her and emotionally manipulate her. We aren’t surprised- he’s an overly ambitious idiot but he has 20yrs on her and knows what he is doing. He is handsome and sexy, so she’s blinded (but just a little bit) by what he’s doing because she wants to believe he has actual feelings for her. (Which is a human thing)
 

No one blames Elizabeth for Thomas’ scummy ways. 

 

On 7/15/2022 at 4:41 PM, CountryGirl said:

That was an incredibly dark episode. Learning that the Edward VI kidnap attempt pretty much went down as it did in real life was…something. What a moron! 

Poor Edward VI, to lose his beloved dog in such a horrific manner. He may be King, but he is still a child.

As is Elizabeth. So I cannot put blame on her shoulders with her interactions with Thomas, the sex included (which came off more as rape and given she couldn’t give consent, well, I would argue that’s exactly what it was). Though it was a decidedly different time than now, Elizabeth has no more emotional maturity than any other 15-16 year-old. Thomas is the adult, well into his 30s and is taking full advantage of that fact and her age and vulnerability. I’m so glad he’s about to get what’s coming to him.

Yes- did you see the look on her face?

Yes it was a different time, but if Thomas had actual honorable intentions towards her (like marriage, which would be socially and legally acceptable) he would not DISHONOR HER or compromise her reputation, especially given how close she is to the throne. He’s such a creep. 

[andromeda331]

Thomas caps off is horrible behavoir by trying to kidnap the King and killing his dog. Both which were accurate. I was dreading the dog scene I just can't handle any scene with an animal especially a dog hurt or worse.  

I didn't like this episode. I don't buy Elizabeth would sleep with Thomas again after her pregnancy scare or agree to marry him. She just got the rumors dealt with that almost destroyed her reputation. Elizabeth was always really good at learning from her mistakes.  He's also so dumb I can't see what she sees in him. It's really more amazing he didn't get himself beheaded a lot sooner. For all the scheming with the other characters they are all at least aware of how real being arrested and executed is. Even for the nobility or King's uncle. But not Thomas. He's too dumb for that. Marrying the King's widow so quickly after his death. Grooming a princess and having an affair with her which could again get him executed. Catherine didn't believe him neither did anyone else. He decides to cap off his stupidity by trying to kidnap the King. 

His outrage when his brother wouldn't let him marry Elizabeth. Of course, he wouldn't you idiot. It would never happen, no one would approve it and princesses are suppose to marry other royals for political reasons or as a bargining chip. The Seymour family should have killed him themselves because he's such a liability.