S01.E03: Either Learn or Be Silent

[CountryGirl]

Quote

The Lord Protector's plan for peace between the siblings only causes Catherine and Thomas to accelerate their own, using Elizabeth's 15th birthday as cover.

[Dcs72]

Spoiler

Catherine Parr didn't live to see Elizabeth's 15th birthday.

[Glade]

I'm glad Elizabeth got out of the house! That first scene where they were joyously cutting off her clothes just went on forever, as did the grooming and manipulation in this episode.  These children are surrounded by universally awful so-called adults.  I really hope Elizabeth will be in a healthier/safer environment next week.   I'm finding this really powerful and well written, much better then PG's shows.

I wonder if we will see Anne Of Cleves at all? 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Glade

[ferjy]

Ha, she did kick Elizabeth out! I was just joking when I said it back in the first episode. Don’t mess with another woman’s man, Elizabeth. Especially right under her nose! Did all that really happen with Thomas Seymour? I thought it was maybe a small crush but she was ready to go whole hog with him. Nice way to repay Catherine Parr for being a mother to you. And she was so cruel to Jane. Not sure how much poetic license they’re taking here, but I’ve never seen them portray young Elizabeth in this light before. 

[PinkRibbons]

Elizabeth definitely got kicked out after being caught in some kind of inappropriate situation with Thomas Seymour, that's historical fact. How far their relationship went is still debated by historians. (Although I don't think it's ever been doubted that yes, he totally wanted to cheat on his wife with Elizabeth.) Alison Weir fictionalizes it as a fully sexual relationship and uses it as Elizabeth's reason for maintaining her lifelong "virginity". I'm not a fan of a lot of Weir's fictional choices, but her solid historical research is pretty unassailable, which means that she definitely sees room for the possibility of Thomas and Elizabeth having sex in the historical timeline. In real life it might have been kisses or even a simple hug that a paranoid and pregnant Catherine in fact misconstrued.

(Incidentally, were those last scenes of Elizabeth picturing her relationship with Thomas supposed to be a memory of them having had sex off-screen?)

I have to say, the show threw a surprise at me, I never considered the idea that Catherine Parr never got pregnant until then because she didn't want to. Thomas was her fourth husband and I guess most historians believe she had infertility issues until a miracle pregnancy. But who knows, maybe she did use some primitive form of birth control that happened to work for her. Giving birth was definitely a very scary prospect for women at the time.

Bad show, Edward, Henry VII would be ashamed of your comments about Jane's singing. Edward's father would never have insulted a lady out loud at a feast in front of a bunch of other people for a laugh. Henry liked to be seen as the gentleman. (Which is why when he was done with a wife he sent someone else to figure out a way to legally murder her or put her away. I don't think he ever accused any of his Queens to their faces, and usually just pretended everything was normal for his last visit with them and then ran away without ever saying goodbye.)

Uh, Lord Protector? You have maybe four years before your king does in fact rule, and you just humiliated him in front of the people who were supposed to respect him the most. Not a thinker about the long run, are we?

Still enjoying Romolai Garai as Mary and hope we see more of her. She's started seeing how genuinely dangerous she can be, now it's time to see how she leverages that to her own advancement.

Quote

Not sure how much poetic license they’re taking here, but I’ve never seen them portray young Elizabeth in this light before. 

Oh Elizabeth had a very nasty mean streak when it came to other women. After she ascended there are records of her breaking one of her ladies' fingers in rage, and apparently she had a habit of smacking her attendant women around in general.

Edited June 26, 2022 by PinkRibbons

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Oh Elizabeth had a very nasty mean streak when it came to other women. After she ascended there are records of her breaking one of her ladies' fingers in rage, and apparently she had a habit of smacking her attendant women around in general.

Not to mention for a “virgin queen” she sure liked getting involved with other women’s husbands.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[AngieBee1]

8 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Incidentally, were those last scenes of Elizabeth picturing her relationship with Thomas supposed to be a memory of them having had sex off-screen?)

I took it as a memory. They left it to the last to create reasonable doubt in the viewers' mind that Elizabeth's protestations were true. Now we know she lied to Katherine.

[ferjy]

9 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Oh Elizabeth had a very nasty mean streak when it came to other women.

Yes, once she was queen. But they’ve always portrayed the young Elizabeth as  quiet and even scared more than cruel (in movies and shows). But this may be more accurate. 

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Not to mention for a “virgin queen” she sure liked getting involved with other women’s husbands.

Like father, like daughter. 😉

9 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Uh, Lord Protector? You have maybe four years before your king does in fact rule, and you just humiliated him in front of the people who were supposed to respect him the most. Not a thinker about the long run, are we?

lol I didn’t expect that at all. Something I’m sure half the staff had wanted to do but never dared. But what a stupid move.  I half expected them to segue to the next scene... Lord Protector’s head on the chopping block.  😄

[CountryGirl]

18 hours ago, Glade said:

I'm glad Elizabeth got out of the house! That first scene where they were joyously cutting off her clothes just went on forever, as did the grooming and manipulation in this episode.  These children are surrounded by universally awful so-called adults.  I really hope Elizabeth will be in a healthier/safer environment next week.   I'm finding this really powerful and well written, much better then PG's shows.

I wonder if we will see Anne Of Cleves at all? 

I’m so glad Elizabeth got out of that house and away from her predator. Katherine choosing her creep of a husband over the girl she she claimed to love like a daughter was gross but not all that surprising, sadly. Elizabeth was a brat to Jane, but I think she was lashing out due to the realization of how the so-called adults in her life were using her like a piece of red meat. And she did try to make amends with Jane later.

Edward, you overstepped with your namesake, who also happens to be THE KING. Good luck with that. 

I appreciated the nod to Elizabeth’s mother with her choice of jewelry, even if she did have to hide that part of it. 

I loved Mary’s conversation with Pedro, especially when she remarked on their previous conversation, before he knew who she was. being one of the best moments of her life. Similarly, I greatly enjoyed Robert giving Elizabeth what-for regarding Jane. 

Ugh to the final moments of what was flashback or possibly fantasy between Elizabeth and Thomas. It’s making me feel some kind of way about TPTB trying to show them as some sexy pairing when in reality, he was a creep, grooming and abusing his young charge, who because of the times, her age, and station, could hardly grasp the reality of the situation and the harm being done to her. 
 

[Scarlett45]

11 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

I have to say, the show threw a surprise at me, I never considered the idea that Catherine Parr never got pregnant until then because she didn't want to. Thomas was her fourth husband and I guess most historians believe she had infertility issues until a miracle pregnancy. But who knows, maybe she did use some primitive form of birth control that happened to work for her. Giving birth was definitely a very scary prospect for women at the time.

I think most historians believed Catherine’s obstetrical history was a matter of circumstances. Her first husband died relatively young and shortly after their marriage, her second was elderly when he met her, and then she was married to Henry VIII who was likely sterile and impotent at the time of her marriage. 
 

You spend your youth married to old men*, it’s not usual you won’t have (bio) children of your own. 
 

I never assumed she was infertile, I assumed she was likely faithful to her husbands when she was married, and when she wasn’t (or if she wasn’t) she didn’t conceive for whatever reason (contraception** or infrequent intercourse). I wouldn’t blame her for not wanting to be pregnant though. 

*yes men DO make sperm their entire life, but quality goes down drastically with age. Also health issues preventing older men from being able to have intercourse. 
 

**it was known lemon juice/vinegar could kill sperm, a vinegar soaked sponge was one of the best options for a woman who didn’t want to conceive. 

[Haleth]

How loathsome can someone be to prey on a 15yo girl who had been entrusted to your care?  <shudder>

[Spartan Girl]

Thomas whining that he wished he and Catherine married before Henry VIII got her had me channeling Murray on Stranger Things: spare me, spare me, SPARE ME!!!! 

Did they seriously do pregnancy test by having the physicians drink pee?!? Ewwwwwww. Also, how could they possibly tell from that?!?

[brisbydog]

Anybody else find it jarring that they gave Catherine Parr the 'much wit and little judgement' line that Elizabeth (spoiler) will use later?

[CountryGirl]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Thomas whining that he wished he and Catherine married before Henry VIII got her had me channeling Murray on Stranger Things: spare me, spare me, SPARE ME!!!! 

Did they seriously do pregnancy test by having the physicians drink pee?!? Ewwwwwww. Also, how could they possibly tell from that?!?

I read where one way of trying to detect pregnancy in medieval times was mixing wine with the woman's urine and watching the resulting changes as alcohol can interact with the proteins in urine. Drinking it? I got nothin'.

[Norma Desmond]

On 6/26/2022 at 12:38 PM, PinkRibbons said:

(Incidentally, were those last scenes of Elizabeth picturing her relationship with Thomas supposed to be a memory of them having had sex off-screen?)

I have the same doubt. I took it as a fantasy but I guess they left it intentionally dubious.

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Did they seriously do pregnancy test by having the physicians drink pee?!? E

I have the same doubt, part 2. I mean, they wouldn't just make that up, right?

[tennisgurl]

Elizabeth might be upset now that Catherine threw her out of their house, but it was for the best. Thomas is such a sleaze, sniffing around his new wife's teenage step-daughter, it sucks that Catherine waited so long to marry a guy who turned out to be such an ass. Its hard to tell if Catherine sent her away to keep her away from Thomas out of concern for her, or if she was furious with her for trying to steal her husband away, the talk with them could have been read in a number of ways. It seemed like she was trying to give Elizabeth an out, that Thomas tried to force himself on her, but Elizabeth wasn't going along with it. I have not been a fan of this shows version of Catherine Parr, but she did at least get more material this week to work with. I know that this series is focused on the possible affair between Elizabeth and Thomas, so it makes some sense that they focus on the jealous wife side of Catherine, but there was so much more to her that I want them to dive into, we don't get a lot of Catherine Parr in Tudor stories and she deserves to be remembered for more than her bad luck in romance and as some petty angry mean girl. She was also dead before Elizabeth's fifteenth birthday. 

We will never really know what actually did or did not happen between Thomas and Elizabeth, but a lot of what they have shown, him going into her room in his pajamas, engaging in suggestive horseplay, did apparently happen, and there was certainly a scandal surrounding the relationship, anything else that happened is speculation, so I guess the show can take all of the artistic license it wants. 

I liked everything with Elizabeth wearing her mothers jewelry and asking if loving her mother was such a terrible thing. This week we got a very shy and sweet Elizabeth as well as Elizabeth throwing Jane Grey under the bus, that was painful to watch. She was a complicated person after all, she grew up to be a great ruler but she definitely had some of her dads temper when she felt slighted. 

I am really loving the shows take on Mary, her scenes with Pedro have all been really great, she seems so thrilled to be able to talk with someone, even now that he knows who she is, who she can confide in. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Haleth]

I’ve heard or read somewhere that tasting urine was a way of detecting a number of illnesses in ancient times. Can’t say for sure if this is true. Of course medieval medicine was pretty hit or miss. 

[taanja]

On 6/20/2022 at 4:47 PM, Dcs72 said:

  Hide contents

Catherine Parr didn't live to see Elizabeth's 15th birthday.

Correct. In true life - she died 2 days BEFORE Elizabeth's 15th bday.

But the party could have taken place several weeks before Elizabeth's actual bday.

[taanja]

On 6/26/2022 at 8:36 PM, CountryGirl said:

Ugh to the final moments of what was flashback or possibly fantasy between Elizabeth and Thomas. It’s making me feel some kind of way about TPTB trying to show them as some sexy pairing when in reality, he was a creep, grooming and abusing his young charge, who because of the times, her age, and station, could hardly grasp the reality of the situation and the harm being done to her. 
 

Girls/Women have been subjected to this kind of behavior from men for the entire history of humankind.

Personally I do not think TPTB were trying to make us (the audience) think there was anything sexy about that scene. Those were Elizabeth's personal memories -- she is just 14-15 years old. In her adolescent mind maybe she thought it was an act of love -- that Thomas must really love her! She had no other experience to base it on.

and also - in 1547/1548 it was perfectly normal and acceptable for a 14year old girl to be married. By the following year at least -- Elizabeth has her own household. They were not considered children anymore.

[andromeda331]

I'm glad Elizabeth left the house even if it wasn't by choice. That was not a good place for her to be. Sorry Catherine you married an idiot. Poor Jane that was a terrible thing to do Elizabeth. I'm glad she at least apologized. 

I'm pretty sure even the Lord Protector isn't allowed to talk to the King like that. He's an ass just like Thomas but differently. 

I do like how their handling Mary. She has been great. I like her relationship with her siblings. I like the relationship between all three siblings.