S01.E02: You Can’t Keep the Birds from Flying Over Your Head

[Scarlett45]

Quote

Christmas at court, and a controversial masque leaves Protestant Edward and Catholic Mary at odds. Elizabeth finds herself in the middle as Mary demands she come live with her.

Air Date: June 19, 2022

[CountryGirl]

I enjoyed most of the episode, especially seeing Mary and Edward having scenes of their own. The conversations between Mary and Elizabeth and Mary and Edward. We also were introduced to the Dudley brothers, Robert and Guilford, the latter whom Jane seems to have her eye on, her father’s plans for her and Edward VI notwithstanding. 

The scenes with the CGI stag were a bit hokey and unnecessary to show Elizabeth finding her cold, steely backbone. The closing scene, with Elizabeth siding with the king over Mary, illustrated that shift far more effectively. 

I am side-eyeing Thomas and Catherine sexing it up in full hearing of the household but welcome someone fact-checking me. 

Finally, it’s disturbing to watch Thomas prey on a young girl. A different time or not, disgusting is still disgusting. She’s 14 year old and his pseudo-stepdaughter. 

[AntFTW]

Amazing show! It's so intense.

[Haleth]

I enjoyed this epi a lot more than last week. The scenes with the conflict between the siblings were well done. 

[brisbydog]

I like this take on Mary, it is refreshing. Conversely I loathe their Catherine Parr. What on earth..?

[ferjy]

45 minutes ago, brisbydog said:

Conversely I loathe their Catherine Parr. What on earth..?

I’m scratching my head about this too. Either they’ve dug up some hidden facts about her or they’ve just invented a new character. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by ferjy

[susannot]

It is not historically accurate.  I admit i faded out but did the show really show Elizabeth sleeping with Thomas?  First of all they have aged her to 16 or 17 when she was really 13 or 14.  Second, if there is anything we know about Elizabeth, it is that she never allowed a man to have her because she had seen in her entire life that sex led to death.

Quote

lly 13 or 14.

[CountryGirl]

Spoiler

While the actress is older, the preview for E3 shows a celebration of Elizabeth’s 15th birthday so she is only 14 at the beginning of the series.

30 minutes ago, susannot said:

It is not historically accurate.  I admit i faded out but did the show really show Elizabeth sleeping with Thomas?  First of all they have aged her to 16 or 17 when she was really 13 or 14.  Second, if there is anything we know about Elizabeth, it is that she never allowed a man to have her because she had seen in her entire life that sex led to death.

lly 13 or 14.

They did not show them having sex; there was kissing and Thomas touching her down below. 

[Norma Desmond]

The CGI stag was ridiculous.

Romola Garai is just wonderful as Mary. I like the actress playing Elizabeth too.  The whole cast is great, actually, and so far I am thoroughly enjoying the series.

[Spartan Girl]

Are they trying to make Catherine unlikable on purpose to justify Tom messing with Elizabeth? If so, thanks, I hate it.

19 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Finally, it’s disturbing to watch Thomas prey on a young girl. A different time or not, disgusting is still disgusting. She’s 14 year old and his pseudo-stepdaughter. 

THANK YOU.

Poor Mary. I hate that everyone manipulated Elizabeth into thinking Mary was using her when she was the one that had her best interests at heart.

[CountryGirl]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Are they trying to make Catherine unlikable on purpose to justify Tom messing with Elizabeth? If so, thanks, I hate it.

THANK YOU.

Poor Mary. I hate that everyone manipulated Elizabeth into thinking Mary was using her when she was the one that had her best interests at heart.

Their conversation before Mary left court showed how much Mary cared about her sister with her fears for her as the daughter of Anne Boleyn, but her recognition that even she, an unquestionably legitimate child of Henry VIII, had much to fear.

I also loved the conversation with Mary and Pedro and that moment when he realized who she was and her enjoying having a real conversation before realization dawned.

[PinkRibbons]

Next week's episode description mentions Elizabeth's 15th birthday, so fair to say she's at most 14 in this episode - both historically accurate and wildly gross of Thomas.

I like that Jane saw Guilford and they eyed each other with apparent interest. There's no real consensus on how that relationship was (I've read everything from abusive to indifferent to romantic), so I look forward to seeing what dynamic they settle on.

I'm loving Romola Garai as Mary, but I expected nothing less from her. I hope we see her speaking Spanish to Pedro.

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Their conversation before Mary left court showed how much Mary cared about her sister with her fears for her as the daughter of Anne Boleyn, but her recognition that even she, an unquestionably legitimate child of Henry VIII, had much to fear.

Actually, in terms of the Protestant faction of the country, many people did accept her parents' divorce and considered her illegitimate. She and Elizabeth lived in a super nebulous position between royal and bastard. I thought it was a nice touch last episode to have Jane Grey meet Elizabeth and call her "Lady" instead of "Princess". (No consensus on that one either, I've read that Mary and Elizabeth may have been called both interchangeably, possibly depending on what mood their father was in at the time.)

I can see why Elizabeth would be torn on going to Mary's house. (Again, historically accurate, Mary did in fact try to get Elizabeth to come live with her as soon as she heard about Catherine Parr's marriage, and I appreciate them sticking to historical fact on that one, because it shows the love the sisters did have for each other.) On the one hand, Mary's home is safer and frankly, I don't buy that Elizabeth would believe Mary wants her there as a political pawn the way they're making this Catherine's motive in having her in the Parr-Seymour household. On the other hand, Catherine's house is doubtlessly more interesting even without her attraction to Thomas. Elizabeth and Jane, both voracious learners, have great tutors there, not to mention the fact that going to Mary meant she de facto had to practice Catholicism while there.

(Btw, what was that whole thing about Mary seeming to believe that Elizabeth was also Catholic so that they could both pray Edward would convert? IIRC, Mary's love of children overcame her hatred of Anne Boleyn, which means she took enough of an interest in her younger sister to know Elizabeth was being raised Protestant.)

I liked the observation that both Mary and Edward are religious fanatics, and Edward's actor really is playing perfectly. I do feel like I missed something about the ending, sort of like I needed to see the exact moment when Elizabeth made her decision to curry favor with Edward at cost of her relationship to Mary. Without knowing what exactly was in that letter, we don't know if Mary now believes Elizabeth is against her because of real religious differences or because Elizabeth is simply looking for preferment from Edward. Did Elizabeth chastise her for holding Mass in her house, or did she just write something like "I'm sorry, I have to stay in the King's good graces and you're on the outs"?

Finally one small thing - what is with the one braid in Elizabeth's hair? She had the class status and appropriate virginity which allowed her to wear her hair down on occasion, but probably didn't often do so because by her age her hair was probably down to her knees. That one braid feels like a weak concession to the idea that she probably wore her hair braided up almost always for convenience, but without it actually being particularly convenient.

[brisbydog]

Tom Cullen is so much better in this than the was in the awful Knightfall, but that could be because it was awful lol

I like the portray of Edward VI as a mini tyrant and Jane Grey as a bit of a bitch; I think that is accurate

Edward Seymour got some nuance this episode, I liked showing how he has to toe the line between running the country and letting Edward think he is in charge

Elizabeth is the least interesting character so far

[Dcs72]

I noticed in the conversation between Mary and Pedro that Mary mentioned having a Lina in her household. Would that by any chance be the same Lina seen in The Spanish Princess?

[tennisgurl]

I really enjoyed that episode, especially the focus on Mary and Edward. The whole cast is great, but Romola Garai as Mary is already a standout. The religious differences between the siblings was really well done, I like this look at the whole delicate religious situation. There really is some love between the siblings and its sad that their religious and political differences led them to separate, especially Mary and Elizabeth. Its clear that Mary did have her sisters best interest at heart, she made a  lot of good points about their ambiguous legitimacy to many people, I wish she had gone to stay with her but I can understand why she decided to stay with Edward, with Mary leaving court it was the best choice for her politically to side with her brother and the protestants. 

I liked the comment that both Mary and Edward are fanatics, and that Mary isn't just going through the motions when it comes to her beliefs due to her connections to her mother and the Catholic world, she is a true believer who is not going to convert just to stay in her brothers good graces. I also really liked her scene with Pedro, her enjoyment at talking to someone without them knowing who she is and his reaction to realizing just who he has been chatting with. 

My only real complaints for this episode were the terrible CGI stag and the very on the nose scene where Elizabeth insists that she deal with it, and their continued take on Catherine Parr as a jealous mean girl. I can buy some of Catherine's growing insecurity in her marriage as her husband creeps on Elizabeth, which I think was probably accurate, but they are really doing her a disservice by cutting out the more interesting aspects of her as a person, like her motherly relationships with her step children and her intelligence. It seems like they are mostly writing her to be manipulating Elizabeth as a pawn, when I think that in real life she by most accounts did really care about her, even if things become more complicated after the Thomas mess. Which is too bad because I think most of the rest of their takes on these figures are pretty interesting.

[Norma Desmond]

1 hour ago, Dcs72 said:

I noticed in the conversation between Mary and Pedro that Mary mentioned having a Lina in her household. Would that by any chance be the same Lina seen in The Spanish Princess?

Yes, it's our delightful Lina de Cardones that Mary referred to. I miss Lina and Oviedo! I liked Pedro too. I am partial to those who protect Mary because well, I love her.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Norma Desmond

[Dcs72]

The portrayal of Catherine Parr grates, but it isn't nearly as egregious as the Spanish Princess's portrayals of Elizabeth of York and Margaret Beaufort. By all accounts, Elizabeth was very maternal towards Catherine of Aragon, and most accounts of that part of Catherine's life barely mention Margaret. The true villians there were Henry VII, and Ferdinand of Aragon, the two stingiest misers in Europe at that time. It really rubbed me the wrong way. I just don't understand why they do this, and for the record, I'm a guy. If there's any case of a relationship between two Woman I could see being naturally antagonistic, it would be between Elizabeth and Mary. That said, I also appreciate the writers showing it wasn't always that way.

[Dcs72]

46 minutes ago, Norma Desmond said:

Yes, it's our delightful Lina de Cardones that Mary referred to. I miss Lina and Oviedo! I liked Pedro too. I am partial to those who protect Mary because well, I love her.

It's a nice touch that Mary has servants who had previously served her mother

[Scarlett45]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:10 AM, CountryGirl said:

Finally, it’s disturbing to watch Thomas prey on a young girl. A different time or not, disgusting is still disgusting. She’s 14 year old and his pseudo-stepdaughter. 

Thomas was being so inappropriate even by the standards of the day. He is WED and Elizabeth is an unmarried woman living in his household.

He isn’t courting her publicly for marriage (which would not have been forbidden if he was single), he was ruining her reputation and it was never okay to comprise the virtue of young (noble) women living under your roof. 

He’s so shady- and even Elizabeth knows it. But we see why she’s intrigued. I mean he’s sexy and she’s 14, and he’s saying all the things she would like to hear. Intellectually she knows this is bad, but because she’s FOURTEEN her impulse control isn’t letting her see how bad. 
 

But again Thomas is awful and a creep. 

[AryasMum]

On 6/19/2022 at 10:50 PM, ferjy said:

I’m scratching my head about this too. Either they’ve dug up some hidden facts about her or they’ve just invented a new character. 

How Philippa Gregory of them. 

[andromeda331]

The actor they have playing Thomas is hot. I see why Catherine was eager to marry him so quickly since they were planning to before Henry swooped in and Catherine's had three rather old husbands. I still can't figure out what she or Elizabeth sees in him. He's an idiot. What exactly was his plan? To be married to Catherine and bed Elizabeth? How exactly was that going to work? Catherine doesn't see anything wrong with his behavoir. Really? Come on Catherine you were married to Henry VIII. Subtle isn't the word for him or Thomas.