S02.E02: Two Jacks Don't Suit

[TexasGal]

Quote

A former flame threatens to derail Anne Lister's idyllic honeymoon by revealing details of her complicated romantic past to Ann Walker. Questioned by Ann in the foothills of Mont Blanc, Anne reveals something of her relationship with Mariana Lawton, but keeps back crucial information. Back in Halifax, the couple's daring trip abroad has raised the alarm among Miss Walker's family, who hatch a plot to marry her off to a man.

Airdate: 04.17.2022

Season 2 episodes are airing in the UK a few weeks earlier than in the US.  Anyone waiting for the US airing - don't enter if you don't want to be spoiled!

[natyxg]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:13 AM, TexasGal said:

A former flame threatens to derail Anne Lister's idyllic honeymoon by revealing details of her complicated romantic past to Ann Walker. Questioned by Ann in the foothills of Mont Blanc, Anne reveals something of her relationship with Mariana Lawton, but keeps back crucial information. Back in Halifax, the couple's daring trip abroad has raised the alarm among Miss Walker's family, who hatch a plot to marry her off to a man.

I feel like this wasn't what happened in the episode. 😂 What prompts Ann to ask about Mariana was Mrs. Milne, not Tib, and they were not in the foothills of Mont Blanc when Ann brought it up (right?).

Anyway, I wanted to like this episode more than I did. The Ann(e)s are fantastic, though, and I thoroughly enjoy all their scenes and want more of them after I finish each episode. I know it can't always be like this and I dread the moment when things will go bad between them. But so far they are just a joy to watch, at least to me. It was the rest of the episode that I had issues with.

First of all, I feel like Anne should always provide the spine for each episode. We should be following HER around primarily, with occasional scenes from other plots, sure, but it should always feel like her story (and or Ann's since she's so directly tied to Anne). She gives the show its shape. She's the glue that holds it together. Or she should be. I didn't feel it in this episode, like I usually do. Episode one almost had TOO much Anne, lol, and it was a bit exhausting, but episode two abandoned the Ann(e)s for long periods of time and that made it feel a bit... chaotic, to me? You expect the episode to be about the Ann(e)s on their honeymoon, but it's not. I feel like it was again a list of details or things they wanted to address, but that it didn't come together like a proper plot to me. I don't know how to explain it. So while I liked a lot of individual scenes, as a whole it didn't flow properly for me.

And the consequence of not using Anne as the glue was... spending too much time on no1curr people. There were way too many scenes (and long ones too) with too many side characters. Some characters that are completely unnecessary, like the Sowdens who felt like they got like a third of the episode (wtf???). And some characters that technically are supposed to be important, but still... their scenes were kind not that needed? We get this interminable scene with Ann's "tribe" that tells us absolutely nothing new about any of them. Did we really need to see them scheme in a really predictable way and reach a really predictable conclusion ('let's marry her off!')? Did we really need to follow Eliza and William into their carriage or get Marian and Aunt Ann scenes that are almost identical to the scenes Ann has with her same Aunt? Did we really need to see Sutherland "process" Ann's request for the division of the estate, in another scene that felt just sooo long?

Now, don't get me wrong. I get what the show is trying to do and say with scenes like those, it's the how that doesn't work for me. Because rather than feel properly weaved into Anne's story, they felt like they were floating around without being teetered to anything, and like if you cut them out they wouldn't even be missed (in this episode). Preferably, the same sentiments that those scenes were meant to put across could have been written in a way that directly impacted or included the Ann(e)s, with those same characters and with the same message.

This doesn't apply to the Sowdens, though. That should be completely cut from the show. It has nothing at all to do with Anne, it's not interesting and now they have even made it off putting and sordid. Suddenly the farm looks like the site of some horror movie, dark, filthy, sinister. The people went from being "honest but poor" types to really off-putting people who chase people around with dead pig heads, beat each other up and have off putting sex in the middle of the filthy kitchen. And by the way, that sex scene was an assault on my eyes. It came out of nowhere and if there ever was a show where straight sex doesn't belong it's gentleman jack (!!!!!!!!!!!!!). I feel like they really misunderstood the assignment with that one.

But now on to the good stuff... I'm loving Anne and Ann this season! They are so kind, loving and sweet to each other. Anne brings Ann up, helps her be confident and cheerful. Ann doesn't let Anne get away with things, but doesn't judge her either when she tells her things. She also tries so hard to get out of her comfort zone in order to go along with Anne's plans, and this does her so much good. Climbing mountains! Going down coal pits! Crossing rivers on someone's back! Could anyone have imagined her doing stuff like that during season one? And all that's from the diaries, too. Plus, I'm living for those adorable nighttime scenes when they're in bed with their hair down looking so adorable and comfortable with each other.

As they spend time together Anne will be forced by circumstances to pull down her walls and put aside the persona that she sometimes put up with Ann during their courtship, which will hopefully continue to be nice to see. I liked to see her admit her relationship with Mariana, I liked seeing her almost expect Ann to react badly ("what you have to understand is..."), but Ann didn't. Anne doesn't have to pretend with Ann, and I hope we see more honesty from her in the future, just in general, because she still always holds back. And I do believe her when she tells Ann that she's happier than she's ever been. Ann has made all her dreams come true. I also liked how willing she was to show Ann Mariana's letter and how she asked her permission to let Mariana visit, instead of trying to impose herself. She knows Mariana is an ex and it might be uncomfortable for Ann. I think Anne will take her marriage very seriously, and real Anne did too (though she WAS human and not perfect).

I'm not super excited about the Mariana situation, though, so I'll just ignore it. 😂

Tib was fun and I was sad that we got so little of her. My favorite part was when she tells Anne that Mariana stole her from her and Anne gives her an affectionate shoulder bump.

I don't even know what to say about the kids catching them kissing. Maybe Eliza is gay too and this will open her eyes? Or will Henry say something that will set the poor people against the Ann(e)s too, since the rich people hate them already? So that way everyone will hate them? Who knows. I feel like I don't have enough info to speculate about what the point of that was.

[Llywela]

So we finally got to meet the infamous Tib!

I loved how Ann was so clearly channelling Anne when they first arrived to visit her aunt, using Anne's mannerisms and speech patterns to project confidence - she faltered more as the visit went along, as her aunt was so icily disapproving, but she started out really well.

I find myself torn on Ann's family. On the one hand, I can absolutely see their point - from where they are standing, Anne has completely isolated her from her friends and family, and if it were a vulnerable relative of mine, I'd be worried about it too. But on the other hand, they have treated Ann abominably themselves, so only have themselves to blame for her cutting them off!

I must admit, I'm wondering where the Sowdens storyline is going - it all feels so seedy and sordid. I don't like that Washington's daughter is mixed up in it - and her new young husband looks to have inherited a streak of his father's temper and violence, which doesn't bode well for their future.

[Chicken Fingers]

I wish they'd cut out the pig family. In every scene, I can't even place them until they invariably talk about how Dad's missing, and pigs. They're dull and repulsive.

Maybe it's me, but I also can't keep track of all the servants and various extended family members and friends and enemies. There are too many and most of them are blandly written, existing only to say a couple of lines about the one reason they exist, like a sea of Red Shirts, except that none of them ever get killed off.

I do enjoy the Ann(e)s and the well-drawn characters in their orbit.

[Lady S.]

On 4/28/2022 at 1:55 PM, Llywela said:

I find myself torn on Ann's family. On the one hand, I can absolutely see their point - from where they are standing, Anne has completely isolated her from her friends and family, and if it were a vulnerable relative of mine, I'd be worried about it too. But on the other hand, they have treated Ann abominably themselves, so only have themselves to blame for her cutting them off!

I'm not at all torn about any of them who have the nerve to complain now. They have a point about Anne Lister being manipulative but it's not like that means they care about Ann's best interests. The only one of "the tribe" who showed real concern for her well-being was Katherine Rawson in s1 (who appears to be recast along with elderly Mrs Rawson). Now Mrs Priestly thinks she'd be better off dead(!!) and it turns out Aunt Walker refused to live with her back before Anne returned to town. And none of this behavior would be alarming to them if it was happening with a male spouse. If they'd managed to pack her off with a husband they wouldn't expect he or Ann to inform them of every movement and ask permission, just as the sister and her asshole husband have their own lives in Scotland. The doctor was right that they're infantilizing her. They want her controlled and abused, just by them or a man of their choosing. And if she is such a confused victim in the clutches of Anne Lister, how is utterly rejecting her as the old aunt does meant to show care and concern? Ann knows that they don't care how they're hurting her. She's better off at Shibden not just because she is happily in love but because the Lister family is so much better than her own.

The family are also exaggerating their shock and lack of foreknowledge. On rewatch of the finale, Ann told the Priestleys she wanted to return to York to continue her treatment with the same doctor before she saw Lister again. So even if they don't have an exact address, they know it was her own idea. They even remember that the old aunt predicted they'd be off to Paris. As Marian pointed out, is it any wonder Ann didn't give out final travel details after her last reception by the aunt? 

Fuck all of them except for elderly Mrs Rawson and the young Miss Rawsons, who I assume are now more alarmed by one of them having to live with the aunt than anything the younger Ann Walker does.

On 5/3/2022 at 1:12 AM, Chicken Fingers said:

Maybe it's me, but I also can't keep track of all the servants and various extended family members and friends and enemies. 

I like watching with subtitles anyway but I really need it here just for that. In addition to all the Ann(e)s and Marian(a)s, there are multiple Eliza/Elizabeths and now another Charlotte popped up in Paris.

I hope we get more of Tib later because that wasn't enough.

I was kinda surprised they had Jodhi May back just for that one line in the whale flashback. I wouldn't have even noticed if not for seeing her name in the opening credits.

[sugarbaker design]

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I hope we get more of Tib later because that wasn't enough.

Hear, hear!

[natyxg]

10 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I'm not at all torn about any of them who have the nerve to complain now. They have a point about Anne Lister being manipulative but it's not like that means they care about Ann's best interests. The only one of "the tribe" who showed real concern for her well-being was Katherine Rawson in s1 (who appears to be recast along with elderly Mrs Rawson). Now Mrs Priestly thinks she'd be better off dead(!!) and it turns out Aunt Walker refused to live with her back before Anne returned to town. And none of this behavior would be alarming to them if it was happening with a male spouse. If they'd managed to pack her off with a husband they wouldn't expect he or Ann to inform them of every movement and ask permission, just as the sister and her asshole husband have their own lives in Scotland. The doctor was right that they're infantilizing her. They want her controlled and abused, just by them or a man of their choosing. And if she is such a confused victim in the clutches of Anne Lister, how is utterly rejecting her as the old aunt does meant to show care and concern? Ann knows that they don't care how they're hurting her. She's better off at Shibden not just because she is happily in love but because the Lister family is so much better than her own.

The family are also exaggerating their shock and lack of foreknowledge. On rewatch of the finale, Ann told the Priestleys she wanted to return to York to continue her treatment with the same doctor before she saw Lister again. So even if they don't have an exact address, they know it was her own idea. They even remember that the old aunt predicted they'd be off to Paris. As Marian pointed out, is it any wonder Ann didn't give out final travel details after her last reception by the aunt? 

Fuck all of them except for elderly Mrs Rawson and the young Miss Rawsons, who I assume are now more alarmed by one of them having to live with the aunt than anything the younger Ann Walker does.

Preach!

 

[izabella]

So, I feel like I am watching a different show than everyone else.  Anne is very manipulative and she is not in love with Ann.  To me, she does come off as very much on the rebound, AND totally after Ann's money.  Would she be so determined to lock Ann down if Ann didn't have money?  I doubt it.  I don't see evidence of it.  What if Ann decided not to lock in financially?  I suspect Anne would eventually drop her sooner or later after that, likely sooner. 

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

Would she be so determined to lock Ann down if Ann didn't have money? 

Absolutely not, Anne wouldn't give Ann a second look if she were a ladies' maid.  This is post-Regency England, class and money mean everything.

1 hour ago, izabella said:

Anne is very manipulative and she is not in love with Ann. 

Agree with the first part and disagree with the second part.  She is besotted with Ann.

1 hour ago, izabella said:

What if Ann decided not to lock in financially? 

That will be interesting to see.

[izabella]

10 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

She is besotted with Ann.

I just don't see that.  I see her being brokenhearted, on the rebound, desperate to create the home life she thought she could have with Mariana, and has fixated on Ann to do that with because she's pretty, has money, and is very young and malleable.

I mean, look at her at the end of this episode.  She's is devastated, crushed, and in pain that Mariana said she would stay away from her.   If she were in love with Ann, besotted, as you believe, Mariana staying away wouldn't mean much.  Instead, she wails in pain.  She even pled with Ann to be friendly with Mariana,  and hang out and be a little friend trio.  Come on.  Why is she so anxious for Ann to be friends with her former lover?  Because she's still in love with her former lover and is desperate to be with her, even as she acts like she is into Ann. 

I'm 100% sure if Mariana's husband kicked the bucket, Anne would drop Ann faster than her side curls could flatten  in the rain.

 

[sugarbaker design]

7 minutes ago, izabella said:

If she were in love with Ann, besotted, as you believe, Mariana staying away wouldn't mean much. 

Again, I disagree.  Anne can still be besotted with Ann, while still deeply in love with Mariana.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  Mariana also deeply hurt Anne, a hurt from which Anne is still reeling.

[tennisgurl]

I do think that Anne really cares for Ann, but she can also certainly be very controlling. As much as she complains that Ann's family infantilizes her, she can do the same thing, especially in the first season, where she could be pretty manipulative towards her to get her interested. They often don't really come off as equals, probably due to Ann being sheltered for so much of her life and being quite younger. Of course, Anne is just an intense person in general who tends to bulldoze over everyone in her life, so its hardly just Ann that she tries to control because she thinks she always knows best. Ann's family really has no room to call Anne out on that though, they have been much worse about controlling Ann from day one, treating her like a child who cant handle a single thing, being needlessly cold to her when she tried to find some independence, were always angling to find her a man to take over her funds, everyone seems more interested in her money than her and are always trying to find a new angle to control her fortune.

It really can be hard to keep up with everyone when the landed gentry all seemed to share the same names. Its like reading British royal history and trying to keep track of the all of the Henrys and the Thomas's and the Mary's, a thousand year history and about five names between all of them. 

The infamous Tib! 

Edited May 5, 2022 by tennisgurl

[natyxg]

On 5/5/2022 at 1:39 PM, izabella said:

I just don't see that.  I see her being brokenhearted, on the rebound, desperate to create the home life she thought she could have with Mariana, and has fixated on Ann to do that with because she's pretty, has money, and is very young and malleable.

I mean, look at her at the end of this episode.  She's is devastated, crushed, and in pain that Mariana said she would stay away from her.   If she were in love with Ann, besotted, as you believe, Mariana staying away wouldn't mean much.  Instead, she wails in pain.  She even pled with Ann to be friendly with Mariana,  and hang out and be a little friend trio.  Come on.  Why is she so anxious for Ann to be friends with her former lover?  Because she's still in love with her former lover and is desperate to be with her, even as she acts like she is into Ann. 

I'm 100% sure if Mariana's husband kicked the bucket, Anne would drop Ann faster than her side curls could flatten  in the rain.

She was also devastated and crushed, much more so actually, when it seemed like Ann was going to leave her for Mr. Ainsworth. She was so upset she vomited. She was, again, very upset, when Mrs. Priestly mentioned that he visited Ann in Scottland, until Ann's letter (which literally took her breath away) reassured her. Mariana tried to leave Charles when Anne inherited Shibden and Anne sent her back. It's in the diaries and Mariana mentioned it in episode 1x07. It's Ann she was thinking about during her time in Denmkark, after spending some time with Mariana reminded her, yet again, that they can't work together anymore. We see her absolute love face when she's watching Ann paint, and her tenderness in this episode when they're in bed, even before Ann brings up Mariana.

Mariana doesn't leave her unaffected and probably never will, but I don't think she show is telling us anything near what you're saying. If anything, I think it's showing us an Anne who feels much more deeply for Ann than she herself wants to admit, probably in part because she has held on to the Mariana narrative for so long, and because her relationship with Ann is so different from her previous relationships (as is Ann herself).

As to what would happen if Charles died? That would be a pickle. After what they have shared together and all that Ann has given her and given up for her, I don't think Anne would drop her in a second to run to Mariana. Also, Mariana has disappointing her many times by this point, while Ann has upheld her promise. Would she dare risk what she has with Ann and maybe end up with nothing? But on the other hand, after holding on to the Mariana fantasy for so long the "what if" might be too strong to ignore, in spite of all that water under the bridge. It would indeed be a real dilemma.

[natyxg]

On 5/5/2022 at 2:32 PM, tennisgurl said:

I do think that Anne really cares for Ann, but she can also certainly be very controlling. As much as she complains that Ann's family infantilizes her, she can do the same thing, especially in the first season, where she could be pretty manipulative towards her to get her interested. They often don't really come off as equals, probably due to Ann being sheltered for so much of her life and being quite younger. Of course, Anne is just an intense person in general who tends to bulldoze over everyone in her life, so its hardly just Ann that she tries to control because she thinks she always knows best. Ann's family really has no room to call Anne out on that though, they have been much worse about controlling Ann from day one, treating her like a child who cant handle a single thing, being needlessly cold to her when she tried to find some independence, were always angling to find her a man to take over her funds, everyone seems more interested in her money than her and are always trying to find a new angle to control her fortune.

I think the difference is that Ann's family wants to control her for appearances sake and for the sake of her money, but don't really even care about her person. Anne "controlling" Ann has more to do with the fact that someone has to make decisions and encourage her to make decisions, because otherwise she just won't do anything. Without the push she second guesses herself too much and is perpetually afraid. And I don't think that Anne does anything against Ann's wellbeing, at least so far. Sure, she benefits herself too (at times), but never at the expense of hurting Ann. The things that Anne insists Ann does are good for her, like her treatment and travel, or things that she herself is willing to do. She's going to leave a life interest in Shibden for Ann, too, the same thing that she wants Ann to do. When Ainsworth came in season one, before Ann told her of his abuses, Anne tries to remain impartial and let her choose herself what was best for her, she just needed Ann to choose so she wouldn't be kept in limbo. She tried to take control of the situation when Ann got ill in season one, while trying to protect her from a family that might put her in a madhouse. And things like that.

I don't think Anne is anywhere near as bad as people sometimes say.

[natyxg]

On 5/5/2022 at 1:20 PM, sugarbaker design said:

Absolutely not, Anne wouldn't give Ann a second look if she were a ladies' maid.

Or Mariana, even.

[CapeCodLuv]

I love reading all of your different opinions  I have been working from home for 12 years so I do not have the usual water cooler discussions I used to, and my husband and family don't care for the show. I give thumbs up even if I do not agree with what you wrote because your opinions are so well thought out. It's great to be able to share thoughts and opine about what we think will happen and what Anne's motives are truly.

I believe Anne truly loves Ann, I just think she doesn't know it. Her relationship with Marianne was true love, but Marianne ripped her heart out. She's going to be slow to admit to her brain that she loves Anne, but her heart knows it.

I am so over Marianne and her 3rd party writing. She knows she has Anne on a hook and is manipulating  Marianne is sick, Marianne might kill herself, Marianne understands Anne needs to move on but Marianne might kill herself. Please won't Anne pause her life and wait for Marianne? Anne wants to move on but I image she feels responsible for Marianne, plus she still loves her. You can't just squash true love. it lingers even if you've met the new right person. Anne wants to move on but Marianne is stringing her along and gutting her heart. As Anne can be quite manipulative herself I would love it if she saw the irony. She does love Ann, but she is also motivated by her own desires, money included.

I loved the way Ann looked with her long braid during the Alps scenes.

As others have said there is no need anymore for the pig farmers. The only thought had was it will become known the father was murdered and somehow blame will be thrown toward Anne for not knowing? Its a very boring story line.

I have always thought Marion knew Anne was gay. With this last episode I am not sure. I know the Aunt is aware but I thought everyone at Sihibden knew. Am I wrong? I recall a recent conversation where Anne and Marion discussed Marianne. Marion said she was not a fan of Marianne as she strung Anne along. and made her sad. I thought that indicated she knew.

Worried about Ann's older sister. They seemed to want to point out she's pregnant again. I am thinking she may die in childbirth as was common. If so what would that mean for Ann? It's just a thought of course but the husband is so oily. Not sure how he could use his wife's death but I'm sure he'd try.

I knew the tribe would try to marry off Ann, but how far can they go? They cannot force her.  I'm fearing if Anne goes to comfort Marianne Ann may be pushed in the wrong direction. I absolutely get the tribe being worried but as many have pointed out the time has passed. It no longer can even appear that their concern is solely for her health, they are worried about her money. I do think there was concern about her health originally, but no one wanted to own the problem. Now that Anne had stepped up they are freaking out.

I adore Suranne every time she storms onto the scene I live. She's such a character, love or hate her Suranne is doing  a great job. Her eyebrows deserve their own show.

Again, I love reading all of you thoughts and opinions. How great is it that a show has sparked such a healthy discussion?

Note, I may get all the Ann.. Anne, Marion, Marian Mary, Maryanne, Charlotte, Elizabeth, Tom, Thomas, George, Jack etc. wrong. Apparently there were few names back then.

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by CapeCodLuv

[natyxg]

32 minutes ago, CapeCodLuv said:

I have always thought Marion knew Anne was gay. With this last episode I am not sure. I know the Aunt is aware but I thought everyone at Sihibden knew. Am I wrong? I recall a recent conversation where Anne and Marion discussed Marianne. Marion said she was not a fan of Marianne as she strung Anne along. and made her sad. I thought that indicated she knew.

I think what people know exactly about Anne and her relationships with women is confusing, and I think the problem comes down to two things:

1. The show doesn't explain the concept of female companions enough. At the time they were a thing, so people really could believe that two women could be companions without being lovers. It's really foreign to us, but to them it was probably normal. I think that's what Aunt Anne and Marian are talking about when they talk about Anne's relationships, but to us it sounds like they know she was having sex with these women. It's one thing I wish the show made clearer. In the diaries, back in the 1820s Anne had an affair with a woman in Paris called Mrs. Barlow (she was a widow). And she told Mrs. Barlow that her Aunt knew nothing of her sexual relationships with women. I can believe that someone like Aunt Anne and Marian, both unmarried, could be innocent enough to not think that Anne was actually lovers with the women she talked about, including Ann. If there is anyone I would expect would be more in tune with Anne's true nature it would be her father, because as a man he would've been less innocent in matters of sex. Even after that conversation Marian and Aunt Anne had after Marian visited Ann's aunt, I'm not sure about what exactly they know.

2. The other problem is that Anne has to talk to SOMEBODY. In her diary she talks to her diary, but in the show she has to talk to people to make her thoughts and feelings known to the audience. This leads to conversations that, again, confuse us about how much people really know (or at least they confuse ME). In season one, for example, Anne talks to Steph about her and Mariana and how the world would make sense if they would finally get together. Does that mean he knows exactly what's going on? Same with Charlotte (Tib's sister in the first episode). The point of the conversation with Charlotte is to have Anne verbalize that she's "fond enough" of Ann and all that jazz, but would Charlotte really know the true nature of Anne's relationship with Mariana? In real life, I'm doubtful. In the show... maybe? I guess? I have such a hard time believing Anne would tell so many people about Mariana. Real Anne certainly wouldn't. Out of everyone Tib is the one who really would know, because she herself was Anne's lover on and off for years. They had like a friends with benefits thing going on, but Anne didn't think Tib suited her enough, in part because she drank too much. Tib introduced Anne to Mariana, by the way.

Edited May 8, 2022 by natyxg

[CapeCodLuv]

Thank you so much for your well thought our response natyxg. I knew companions were a thing and understood how they were needed so that unmarried women could still have a life and travel. Reading your thoughts made me realize how Marion and Aunt Ann could think that's all Marianne and Ann could be to Anne, a simple companion. Looking back at their reactions to the implication Anne had a reputation in London makes it much clearer, they do not know the truth about her relationships with Marianne and Ann. I wonder if as the story continues they figure it out, I don't believe they would shun Anne if they knew the truth. Having not read the diaries I have no idea what happened in her real life, curious to see how far they stray from what she wrote.

I definitely thought Steph and Charlotte knew but now am scratching my head. Your explanation of why it's not clear makes so much sense. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[izabella]

Didn't Anne and her Aunt talk about her exchange of rings with Ann?  She also told her they went to church for a service.  I think her Aunt must know there's more to it than just a companion.

[SparedTurkey]

Oh Aunt Ann definately knows Ann is more than a companion. Also given the talk last season, she knows Anne loves women in all ways even if she doesn't know the ins and outs of her love life. After this episode, Marian at least verbalised it for herself

[AnnMarie17]

Okay, I have found myself fast forwarding through the pig people.  WHY are they even on this show?!  How do they contribute?!  I so enjoy seeing Anne and Ann...and all of the cast of family characters around them, but the pig people eat up (pun intended) screen time every week and I don't even bother watching them anymore.  Such a waste when we could have more of Suranne Jones stomping about!  She's magnificent! 

[rollacoaster]

On 5/5/2022 at 1:32 PM, tennisgurl said:

It really can be hard to keep up with everyone when the landed gentry all seemed to share the same names. Its like reading British royal history and trying to keep track of the all of the Henrys and the Thomas's and the Mary's, a thousand year history and about five names between all of them. 

I love this SO MUCH. It's so true. 

On 5/5/2022 at 10:37 AM, izabella said:

So, I feel like I am watching a different show than everyone else.  Anne is very manipulative and she is not in love with Ann.  To me, she does come off as very much on the rebound, AND totally after Ann's money.  Would she be so determined to lock Ann down if Ann didn't have money?  I doubt it.  I don't see evidence of it.  What if Ann decided not to lock in financially?  I suspect Anne would eventually drop her sooner or later after that, likely sooner. 

 

On 5/7/2022 at 9:34 PM, CapeCodLuv said:

I believe Anne truly loves Anne, I just think she doesn't know it. Her relationship with Marianne was true love, but Marianne ripped her heart out. She's going to be slow to admit to her brain that she loves Anne, but her heart knows it.

I am so over Marianne and her 3rd part writing. She knows she has Ann on a hook and is manipulating  Marianne is sick, Marianne might kill herself, Marianne understands Anne needs to move on but Marianne might kill herself. Please won't Anne pause her life and wait for Marianne? Anne wants to move on but I image she feels responsible for Marianne, plus she still loves her. You can't just squash true love. it lingers even if you've met the new right person. Anne wants to move on but Marianne is string her along and gutting her heart. As Anne can be quite manipulative herself I would love it if she saw the irony. She does love Ann, but she is also motivated by her own desires, money included.

I agree with this. I think Anne is just is surprised as anyone that she is besotted with such a sweet, lovely and innocent woman as Ann. I also think that Marianne is a master manipulator. I know we are supposed to feel for her, that she is trapped in a marriage she doesn't want and can't express her true feelings. She's not a villain, just someone trapped by circumstances  and limited choices. I kinda do feel bad for her, but, I mostly just hate manipulative people. It's interesting to see someone as independent and bold as Anne being emotionally entangled with her. It adds some  shading to Anne's character. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by rollacoaster

[CapeCodLuv]

2 hours ago, AnnMarie17 said:

Okay, I have found myself fast forwarding through the pig people.  WHY are they even on this show?!  How do they contribute?!  I so enjoy seeing Anne and Ann...and all of the cast of family characters around them, but the pig people eat up (pun intended) screen time every week and I don't even bother watching them anymore.  Such a waste when we could have more of Suranne Jones stomping about!  She's magnificent! 

I was wondering if somehow Anne would be held responsible for the murder on her property? I mean in terms of money when she has none. Scandal? Or if there will be some type of legal entanglement OR big reveal of the murder as Anne goes to open her mine or hotel? In order to make the pig family's story matter it has to tie back to Anne or else it's just boring. I care nothing for them, the story was complete for me when the father was murdered and the family moved on with their lives. There has to be something coming that will harm Anne, or else it's just lousy filler.

[CapeCodLuv]

On 5/9/2022 at 6:50 AM, SparedTurkey said:

Oh Aunt Ann definately knows Ann is more than a companion. Also given the talk last season, she knows Anne loves women in all ways even if she doesn't know the ins and outs of her love life. After this episode, Marian at least verbalised it for herself

I am waffling on this subject. natyxg gave a perfect explanation of why those who really know Anne might not know the truth. I do think Aunt Ann knows. Her bad reaction to hearing Anne has a reputation in London might be from fear that her beloved Anne will be harshly judged or that it may impact Marion. I doubt she cares much for her own reputation at her age, or that of her brother. She might have thought it was a well kept secret until she heard of the rumors. While I thought Marion knew I now believe she thought it was the innocent type of companionship, she is naive. I expect we may see that it does harm Marion's chances of being married, these people are awful after all, and what one family member does impacts the all.

I think Anne feels responsible for Marianne despite what she did to her, Marianne is making it seem as though her physical and mental health depend on Anne. She's manipulating Anne. I feel bad for her situation but she is the villain in this story in my opinion. Anne has the control but I think she is going to fail here and not do the right thing by Ann.  A rare weakness from our girl.   We know it's going to hurt Ann, just waiting to see how it pans out.

I so love Suranne! Does anyone think the eyebrows are different this season? Even her eyebrows tell me what to do, I 'm frightened...LOL!

Edited May 10, 2022 by CapeCodLuv

[rollacoaster]

21 hours ago, CapeCodLuv said:

I so love Suranne! Does anyone think the eyebrows are different this season? Even her eyebrows tell me what to do, I 'm frightened...LOL!

Her eyebrows do seem more...aggressive this season, lol. 

[natyxg]

On 5/8/2022 at 8:26 PM, CapeCodLuv said:

Thank you so much for your well thought our response natyxg. I knew companions were a thing and understood how they were needed so that unmarried women could still have a life and travel. Reading your thoughts made me realize how Marion and Aunt Ann could think that's all Marianne and Ann could be to Anne, a simple companion. Looking back at their reactions to the implication Anne had a reputation in London makes it much clearer, they do not know the truth about her relationships with Marianne and Ann. I wonder if as the story continues they figure it out, I don't believe they would shun Anne if they knew the truth. Having not read the diaries I have no idea what happened in her real life, curious to see how far they stray from what she wrote.

I definitely thought Steph and Charlotte knew but now am scratching my head. Your explanation of why it's not clear makes so much sense. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

You're welcome. 😀

[natyxg]

On 5/9/2022 at 1:38 AM, izabella said:

Didn't Anne and her Aunt talk about her exchange of rings with Ann?  She also told her they went to church for a service.  I think her Aunt must know there's more to it than just a companion.

One would think so, yes, but I still find the whole thing a bit confusing. I feel like the show isn't being definitive either way.

On 5/9/2022 at 2:34 PM, AnnMarie17 said:

Okay, I have found myself fast forwarding through the pig people.  WHY are they even on this show?!  How do they contribute?!  I so enjoy seeing Anne and Ann...and all of the cast of family characters around them, but the pig people eat up (pun intended) screen time every week and I don't even bother watching them anymore.  Such a waste when we could have more of Suranne Jones stomping about!  She's magnificent! 

I'm right there with you.

Quote

I agree with this. I think Anne is just is surprised as anyone that she is besotted with such a sweet, lovely and innocent woman as Ann. I also think that Marianne is a master manipulator. I know we are supposed to feel for her, that she is trapped in a marriage she doesn't want and can't express her true feelings. She's not a villain, just someone trapped by circumstances  and limited choices. I kinda do feel bad for her, but, I mostly just hate manipulative people. It's interesting to see someone as independent and bold as Anne being emotionally entangled with her. It adds some  shading to Anne's character. 

This! Specially when they only want to benefit themselves.

[natyxg]

Quote

I am waffling on this subject. natyxg gave a perfect explanation of why those who really know Anne might not know the truth. I do think Aunt Ann knows. Her bad reaction to hearing Anne has a reputation in London might be from fear that her beloved Anne will be harshly judged or that it may impact Marion. I doubt she cares much for her own reputation at her age, or that of her brother. She might have thought it was a well kept secret until she heard of the rumors. While I thought Marion knew I now believe she thought it was the innocent type of companionship, she is naive. I expect we may see that it does harm Marion's chances of being married, these people are awful after all and what one family member does impacts the all.

I wish they had said, explicitly, what the rumors were. I feel like they continue to keep things vague, and I guess I continue to be skeptical that so many people could know for real. I think Anne would've been treated very differently if people were speaking about her taking female lovers in those terms. It's one thing to imply it and think that maybe she's "like a man" or whatever, and another thing to really say it out loud and put the image in people's minds.  Yet, in january 10, 1835

Spoiler

someone posted an announcement in the newspaper talking about the marriage of Tom Lister (tom was the equilvant of "d*ke" back then, i think) and Miss Walker

So maybe people WERE aware, after all. I don't know. It's interesting.

[CapeCodLuv]

2 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

Her eyebrows do seem more...aggressive this season, lol. 

I normally wouldn't like them but they just work for Anne and Suranne. I would do whatever her eyebrows tell me to do.

On a side note I just went back through all my old posts and tried to correct my usage of Ann, Anne, Suranne, Marion, Marian, Mary, Marianne, Marianna etc. It's exhausting! I think I am adding characters who don't exist. LOL

Edited May 10, 2022 by CapeCodLuv

[rollacoaster]

8 minutes ago, CapeCodLuv said:

I normally wouldn't like them but they just work for Anne and Suranne. I would do whatever her eyebrows tell me to do.

They deserve their own social media account, like Padma Laksmi's arm scar, lol. 

[CapeCodLuv]

2 hours ago, natyxg said:

I wish they had said, explicitly, what the rumors were. I feel like they continue to keep things vague, and I guess I continue to be skeptical that so many people could know for real. I think Anne would've been treated very differently if people were speaking about her taking female lovers in those terms. It's one thing to imply it and think that maybe she's "like a man" or whatever, and another thing to really say it out loud and put the image in people's minds.  Yet, in january 10, 1835

  Hide contents

someone posted an announcement in the newspaper talking about the marriage of Tom Lister (tom was the equilvant of "d*ke" back then, i think) and Miss Walker

So maybe people WERE aware, after all. I don't know. It's interesting.

Ann's family seems to know something but just what do they know? It seems to me anyone calling her a Jack knows it's more than just appearing manly. Jeremiah Rawson I think knows, but it's interesting he has yet to use the information in an attempt to ruin her. Perhaps the accusation is too harsh to make without proof?

Edited May 10, 2022 by CapeCodLuv

[gingerella]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:05 PM, natyxg said:

I feel like this wasn't what happened in the episode. 😂 What prompts Ann to ask about Mariana was Mrs. Milne, not Tib, and they were not in the foothills of Mont Blanc when Ann brought it up (right?).

Anyway, I wanted to like this episode more than I did. The Ann(e)s are fantastic, though, and I thoroughly enjoy all their scenes and want more of them after I finish each episode. I know it can't always be like this and I dread the moment when things will go bad between them. But so far they are just a joy to watch, at least to me. It was the rest of the episode that I had issues with.

First of all, I feel like Anne should always provide the spine for each episode. We should be following HER around primarily, with occasional scenes from other plots, sure, but it should always feel like her story (and or Ann's since she's so directly tied to Anne). She gives the show its shape. She's the glue that holds it together. Or she should be. I didn't feel it in this episode, like I usually do. Episode one almost had TOO much Anne, lol, and it was a bit exhausting, but episode two abandoned the Ann(e)s for long periods of time and that made it feel a bit... chaotic, to me? You expect the episode to be about the Ann(e)s on their honeymoon, but it's not. I feel like it was again a list of details or things they wanted to address, but that it didn't come together like a proper plot to me. I don't know how to explain it. So while I liked a lot of individual scenes, as a whole it didn't flow properly for me.

And the consequence of not using Anne as the glue was... spending too much time on no1curr people. There were way too many scenes (and long ones too) with too many side characters. Some characters that are completely unnecessary, like the Sowdens who felt like they got like a third of the episode (wtf???). And some characters that technically are supposed to be important, but still... their scenes were kind not that needed? We get this interminable scene with Ann's "tribe" that tells us absolutely nothing new about any of them. Did we really need to see them scheme in a really predictable way and reach a really predictable conclusion ('let's marry her off!')? Did we really need to follow Eliza and William into their carriage or get Marian and Aunt Ann scenes that are almost identical to the scenes Ann has with her same Aunt? Did we really need to see Sutherland "process" Ann's request for the division of the estate, in another scene that felt just sooo long?

Now, don't get me wrong. I get what the show is trying to do and say with scenes like those, it's the how that doesn't work for me. Because rather than feel properly weaved into Anne's story, they felt like they were floating around without being teetered to anything, and like if you cut them out they wouldn't even be missed (in this episode). Preferably, the same sentiments that those scenes were meant to put across could have been written in a way that directly impacted or included the Ann(e)s, with those same characters and with the same message.

This doesn't apply to the Sowdens, though. That should be completely cut from the show. It has nothing at all to do with Anne, it's not interesting and now they have even made it off putting and sordid. Suddenly the farm looks like the site of some horror movie, dark, filthy, sinister. The people went from being "honest but poor" types to really off-putting people who chase people around with dead pig heads, beat each other up and have off putting sex in the middle of the filthy kitchen. And by the way, that sex scene was an assault on my eyes. It came out of nowhere and if there ever was a show where straight sex doesn't belong it's gentleman jack (!!!!!!!!!!!!!). I feel like they really misunderstood the assignment with that one.

But now on to the good stuff... I'm loving Anne and Ann this season! They are so kind, loving and sweet to each other. Anne brings Ann up, helps her be confident and cheerful. Ann doesn't let Anne get away with things, but doesn't judge her either when she tells her things. She also tries so hard to get out of her comfort zone in order to go along with Anne's plans, and this does her so much good. Climbing mountains! Going down coal pits! Crossing rivers on someone's back! Could anyone have imagined her doing stuff like that during season one? And all that's from the diaries, too. Plus, I'm living for those adorable nighttime scenes when they're in bed with their hair down looking so adorable and comfortable with each other.

As they spend time together Anne will be forced by circumstances to pull down her walls and put aside the persona that she sometimes put up with Ann during their courtship, which will hopefully continue to be nice to see. I liked to see her admit her relationship with Mariana, I liked seeing her almost expect Ann to react badly ("what you have to understand is..."), but Ann didn't. Anne doesn't have to pretend with Ann, and I hope we see more honesty from her in the future, just in general, because she still always holds back. And I do believe her when she tells Ann that she's happier than she's ever been. Ann has made all her dreams come true. I also liked how willing she was to show Ann Mariana's letter and how she asked her permission to let Mariana visit, instead of trying to impose herself. She knows Mariana is an ex and it might be uncomfortable for Ann. I think Anne will take her marriage very seriously, and real Anne did too (though she WAS human and not perfect).

I'm not super excited about the Mariana situation, though, so I'll just ignore it. 😂

Tib was fun and I was sad that we got so little of her. My favorite part was when she tells Anne that Mariana stole her from her and Anne gives her an affectionate shoulder bump.

I don't even know what to say about the kids catching them kissing. Maybe Eliza is gay too and this will open her eyes? Or will Henry say something that will set the poor people against the Ann(e)s too, since the rich people hate them already? So that way everyone will hate them? Who knows. I feel like I don't have enough info to speculate about what the point of that was.

Great post and yes to all of it!

I also think that whilst Anne will likely always have a thing for Mariana, she, Anne, was crushed when Mariana told her she was marrying her husband. Anne begged her not to, but the truth is, Mariana was afraid to be alone and fully committed to Anne. So she chose the conventional path that was expected of women of her time, she married a man for status and money. If I were Anne I'd be beyond pissed off about that, and I wouldn't forgive her ever because it was Mariana who killed their relationship, then expected that they would simply carry on secretly behind closed doors ever more. I credit Anne for wanting more, for wanting a full fledged legitimate marriage, albeit one that society would never understand in her day. She wanted it all and she's appearing to get it with Ann and for that I applaud her. Sadly, I'm sure she's going to fuck it up with Ann by allowing Mariana to creep back into her bed. Which will likely put Ann over the edge, she'll run back to Crow's Nest or whatever property she owns, and her family will be waiting for her to say "I told you so" and to control her money finally. I hope I'm wrong but I feel like that's where we're going.

[natyxg]

23 hours ago, CapeCodLuv said:

Perhaps the accusation is too harsh to make without proof?

Probably.

22 hours ago, gingerella said:

I also think that whilst Anne will likely always have a thing for Mariana, she, Anne, was crushed when Mariana told her she was marrying her husband. Anne begged her not to, but the truth is, Mariana was afraid to be alone and fully committed to Anne.

In my opinion real!Mariana and real!Anne had a really bad relationship, even though they did think they were living some epic love story (specially Anne), and I hate that the show keeps simplifying everything to "she married Charles!" when it went so beyond THAT. I guess they have to do it for time purposes, but meh. There are things that show!Anne mentions in passing that I think can't truly hit home for the people who haven't read the diaries, like Scarborough and the three step business, which were huge, huge incidents for Anne and really heartbreaking to read.... and they had nothing to do with Mariana marrying Charles. Anne also had an affair with one of Mariana's sisters, and Mariana gave her an STD, and so on.

They had fantastic sex, though.

[gingerella]

5 hours ago, natyxg said:

Probably.

In my opinion real!Mariana and real!Anne had a really bad relationship, even though they did think they were living some epic love story (specially Anne), and I hate that the show keeps simplifying everything to "she married Charles!" when it went so beyond THAT. I guess they have to do it for time purposes, but meh. There are things that show!Anne mentions in passing that I think can't truly hit home for the people who haven't read the diaries, like Scarborough and the three step business, which were huge, huge incidents for Anne and really heartbreaking to read.... and they had nothing to do with Mariana marrying Charles. Anne also had an affair with one of Mariana's sisters, and Mariana gave her an STD, and so on.

They had fantastic sex, though.

I guess for me, I don't really care about Real Anne vs. Show Anne because this is a show and that is the Anne that I'm intrigued with, ditto the other characters. After I watched the first Season I read her diaries and they just were not that interesting to me, I like the show much better. YMMV of course!

[DanaK]

I get the impression that Ann W is utterly bored when Anne L talks about business to her family at the dinner table. I can’t tell if she is just bored or is upset about it as well

[Llywela]

23 minutes ago, DanaK said:

I get the impression that Ann W is utterly bored when Anne L talks about business to her family at the dinner table. I can’t tell if she is just bored or is upset about it as well

I don't think it's that she's bored, so much as it all just goes completely over her head and she can't follow the conversation at all (which, I suppose, is a boring position to be in, so maybe bored is the right word after all). The world of business is utterly, utterly alien to her. I mean, the show demonstrates that even worldly businessmen find it hard to keep up with Anne, never mind someone as sheltered and naïve as Ann!

[Blackie]

The poor cousin that was sent to live Crow's Nest with the old Aunt. The look on her face when she was between the Ann/Anne was hilarious