S02.E05: An Unthinkable Fate

[Enero]

On 4/3/2022 at 10:41 PM, Plums said:

one thing I'm a but confused on is the timeline of Kate's dowry deal with the Sheffields. When did she initially reach out to them? Was it basically however long it took after their father died for the money to start getting tight? A few months maybe? Because it must have taken years for Edwina to be trained to be the perfect prospective aristocratic bride. I wonder if she wrote when she was in the promoted-to-parent phase of her mother's grief, just like Anthony was during Violet's grief. would explain why she never told them about it- Edwina would have just been a child and Mary would have been too into her mourning for Kate to want to burden her. And then after you keep a secret like that initially, it becomes more and more impossible to disclose it. Especially since the plan was for Edwina to fall in love with a nobleman so that she'd never need to know. 

But then, there was that talk about how they used the last of their money to sail to England and find Edwina a husband as if it was a last, desperate effort and not the culmination of a years long plan. It's just not that clear to me.  

I think you deciphered the timeline correctly. Kate said she spent the past 8 years prepping Edwina to be an English nobleman’s wife. So like you’ve guessed, Kate likely saw that their financial stability was not going to last forever after her father’s death. So she wrote to the Sheffield’s immediately after her father died. I’m also guessing she may have worked on Mary for years trying to convince her to return to England, but once the money ran low she was able to get her to return if for nothing else so that Edwina could land a husband and be financially stable. Kate stated that she and her mother shielded Edwina from the fact that the family was in financial trouble after the father died. So I can believe Mary would get on board with continuing to protect Edwina from their financial troubles by supporting a plan to get her married off to a nobleman whose financially stable. The part Mary obviously didn’t know was about the deal with the Sheffields.
 

On 4/3/2022 at 2:52 PM, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I think she just lost control. Quite honestly, she was being unforgivably rude even before she mentioned the dowry. Her anger at her daughter was such that she couldn't control her temper enough to stop talking about stuff that happened 20 years earlier. Lord Sheffield even tried to rein her in initially but she was bound-and-determined to play the victim, despite the discomfort it was causing everyone. 

On 4/3/2022 at 2:58 PM, bijoux said:

Mary came to the defense of her daughters, plural, saying how she was glad that her parents cast her out because she could raise her children not to focus merely on titles and money. That's when the shoe about the dowry dropped. But it's true, she was a prickly snide witch the entire time.

Something I haven’t seen anyone mention is Lady Danbury’s poor decision to invite the Sheffields to dinner and with the Bridgertons no less. Did she really think that the former and the Sharmas were going to reunite with hugs, kisses and smiles and be singing Kamba ya by the time dinner was over? A sh*t show was inevitable with such a gathering. Then she had the nerve to give Kate that “I told you so” look after the sh*t hit the fan and the dinner ended in disaster. If she’d not invited the Sheffields to dinner in the first place the whole plan to get Edwina and Anthony married and securing the dowry might’ve gone off without a hitch. I’ll admit I was side-eying Lady Danbury just as much as I was the Sheffields over that mess. 

[andromeda331]

30 minutes ago, Enero said:

I think you deciphered the timeline correctly. Kate said she spent the past 8 years prepping Edwina to be an English nobleman’s wife. So like you’ve guessed, Kate likely saw that their financial stability was not going to last forever after her father’s death. So she wrote to the Sheffield’s immediately after her father died. I’m also guessing she may have worked on Mary for years trying to convince her to return to England, but once the money ran low she was able to get her to return if for nothing else so that Edwina could land a husband and be financially stable. Kate stated that she and her mother shielded Edwina from the fact that the family was in financial trouble after the father died. So I can believe Mary would get on board with continuing to protect Edwina from their financial troubles by supporting a plan to get her married off to a nobleman whose financially stable. The part Mary obviously didn’t know was about the deal with the Sheffields.
 

Something I haven’t seen anyone mention is Lady Danbury’s poor decision to invite the Sheffields to dinner and with the Bridgertons no less. Did she really think that the former and the Sharmas were going to reunite with hugs, kisses and smiles and be singing Kamba ya by the time dinner was over? A sh*t show was inevitable with such a gathering. Then she had the nerve to give Kate that “I told you so” look after the sh*t hit the fan and the dinner ended in disaster. If she’d not invited the Sheffields to dinner in the first place the whole plan to get Edwina and Anthony married and securing the dowry might’ve gone off without a hitch. I’ll admit I was side-eying Lady Danbury just as much as I was the Sheffields over that mess. 

I don't know what she thought was going to happen. When she told them about it, Lady Danbury sounded like she knew it was going to go bad. So what was she hoping for?  

[Cetacean]

38 minutes ago, Enero said:

If she’d not invited the Sheffields to dinner in the first place the whole plan to get Edwina and Anthony married and securing the dowry might’ve gone off without a hitch.

Was it perhaps to show the Sheffields that Edwina had fulfilled the deal by becoming engaged?  That way the money would be secure for Lady Mary and Kate?  That's the only thing I could think of.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Lady Danbury says the thing about not wanting to meet their impoliteness with impoliteness of her own but mostly I think she invited her to move the plot along. Basically the whole point of the dinner was to get to Anthony's "you are the bane of my existence and the object of all my desires" speech to Kate after dinner.

[Scarlett45]

Okay question- how is it logistically possible that Lady Mary had no idea about her parents providing Edwina’s dowry? I thought she and Kate came up with this plan together?

 

I can understand Edwina thinking she had a dowry, again, she was young and they kept her in the dark about a lot of things, but Lady Mary and Kate knew they were BROKE. Lady Mary never addressed the subject of a dowry with Lord Bridgerton?

From the timeline we have been given, Mr Sharma was a clerk for a royal family in India and died about 8yrs ago. (So Kate would’ve been 18, Edwina 10/11.) The family was living off of savings/whatever assets they had when he died, and used the very last to make the voyage to London to arrange to have Edwina married, the Sheffields would pay the dowry and support Lady Mary if Edwina made an acceptable match. 
 

Why is Lady Mary letting Kate handle EVERYTHING? I could understand if she was sick, or deep in grief because her husband had just died (like Lady Bridgerton was)- but I guess plot. 

[katha]

Yeah, it's one of those plot contrivances. Everyone has to be a bit/a lot stupid for it to go on as it does. It does create a parallel between Kate and Anthony, though: The parentification of the eldest child, even if done unconciously. And it twists the kid and you never get the responsibility and power dynamics back to the way they were. Violet tries to be a mother to Anthony but to a certain point he is just blocking her and I liked that in this season she recognized why this is happening and how she contributed to it. Mary was oblivious to this dynamic, it seems, and only figures it out once we met the Sharmas on the show. 

And of course  the burden is too big for both Kate and Anthony to take care of everyone like that and and creates really screwed views of themselves and their worth (totally tied to their real and perceived duties). They're also not able to recognize that it is not always needed anymore, compared to the crisis that started them on this path in the past. OTOH, the series also shows quite well how Violet and the Bridgerton siblings as well as Mary take for granted that Anthony/Kate will just deal with things. And then they get huffy if things go awry. ;-) 

[Enero]

On 4/9/2022 at 10:51 AM, Cetacean said:

Was it perhaps to show the Sheffields that Edwina had fulfilled the deal by becoming engaged?  That way the money would be secure for Lady Mary and Kate?  That's the only thing I could think of.

Perhaps. Though I think they could’ve put them off until the wedding.  Or at least maybe had a pre-meeting to get acquainted before having dinner with the Bridgertons right from the start. The wedding was going to be happening within the month I think. So Danbury had the time to handle the situation more carefully than the rushed dinner, where the Sharmas, specifically  Kate and Edwina, were completely unprepared for the Sheffields nastiness and drama. 

9 minutes ago, katha said:

Yeah, it's one of those plot contrivances. Everyone has to be a bit/a lot stupid for it to go on as it does. It does create a parallel between Kate and Anthony, though: The parentification of the eldest child, even if done unconciously. And it twists the kid and you never get the responsibility and power dynamics back to the way they were. Violet tries to be a mother to Anthony but to a certain point he is just blocking her and I liked that in this season she recognized why this is happening and how she contributed to it. Mary was oblivious to this dynamic, it seems, and only figures it out once we met the Sharmas on the show. 

And of course  the burden is too big for both Kate and Anthony to take care of everyone like that and and creates really screwed views of themselves and their worth (totally tied to their real and perceived duties). They're also not able to recognize that it is not always needed anymore, compared to the crisis that started them on this path in the past. OTOH, the series also shows quite well how Violet and the Bridgerton siblings as well as Mary take for granted that Anthony/Kate will just deal with things. And then they get huffy if things go awry. ;-) 

Mary must’ve been just as or even more devastated than Violet when her husband died. Because it was obvious Kate took over the parental role completely in raising Edwina and managing the household. Ironically enough, Kate being forced into that role prepared her for becoming a  viscountess. Anthony mentioned how his wife would not only take over running the household from Violet but be responsible for getting his siblings married off too. Kate has the experience and maturity to do that. As sweet as Edwina was she would’ve been eaten alive in the Bridgerton household with all those strong personalities and rambunctiousness. Not to mention being overwhelmed suddenly having the duties of running a household being that she’d been shielded from that her whole life. She would’ve likely had help from Mary and Violet but it would’ve still been intimidating for her I think.  

[bijoux]

Among the many crazy moments in this episode is this. What is this disturbance in the Force? An unauthorised male in the vicinity of Miss Sharma! 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by bijoux

[SonofaBiscuit]

Also regarding Lady Mary being kinda oblivious, did they ever address why Kate’s family believes she will be perfectly content as a spinster? I guess maybe Kate just kept reassuring them that it was what she wanted, but meanwhile she’s telling Eloise that no, it’s not really an “ideal” situation, and “there’s really no place for you except the edges of society.” Kate and Lady Mary even had a brief conversation about it this episode where Kate is told “Edwina is to wed her heart’s desire and you have always wanted nothing more that your freedom.” But the look on Kate’s face seems a bit sad and hurt that her mother would think that. Like, Lady Mary never thought that maybe Kate really did want to marry but felt she could not, for multiple reasons? (For example, she felt a duty to care for her family, and did not want to abandon them to marry, and she could not provide a dowry even if she found someone whom she actually wanted to marry). 

2 hours ago, Enero said:

As sweet as Edwina was she would’ve been eaten alive in the Bridgerton household with all those strong personalities and rambunctiousness. Not to mention being overwhelmed suddenly having the duties of running a household being that she’d been shielded from that her whole life. She would’ve likely had help from Mary and Violet but it would’ve still been intimidating for her I think.

I agree…Edwina couldn’t even hack Pall Mall. And that was just a game! Plus, I do not know how she would have coped when she learned that “even-tempered” Anthony was anything but, LOL. She would have been very unhappy overall, I think.

[bijoux]

It's not even the not marrying part for me, I actually felt that to be building on Violet honestly trying to find someone who shared Eloise's interests, true or made up. Mary was even willing to go further than that and support Kate in her expressed wish not to marry.

What bothers me is everyone being okay with Kate moving to India. It took six months to travel just in one direction. Realistically, how many times did these women who were family and loved one another expect to see each other for the rest of their lives? Two, three tops? And it's not like they didn't know. They'd all just made the journey!

[Scarlett45]

46 minutes ago, SonofaBiscuit said:

Like, Lady Mary never thought that maybe Kate really did want to marry but felt she could not, for multiple reasons? (For example, she felt a duty to care for her family, and did not want to abandon them to marry, and she could not provide a dowry even if she found someone whom she actually wanted to marry). 

This doesn’t surprise me. 
 

No doubt in my mind that Lady Mary loves Kate just as much as she does Edwina, but the “squeaky wheel gets the oil”- Kate in personality was probably always the “tougher” more practical one and of the two girls, would have had a much easier time being single. Kate admits that being a single woman of six and twenty isn’t easy, but she like Eloise would probably be better off single than married to a man if they weren’t 100% invested in that man. Where as a woman with a temperament like Edwina, would thrive being married and a mother even if it wasn’t a love match (so long as the guy wasn’t abusive or something like that).

 

We also don’t know how old Kate was when her biological mother died- she was  young when her father married Lady Mary, but if she remembers how sad her father was, and the drama that surrounded Lady Mary joining her family I could see her wanting to avoid that. “A high price to pay for love.” she said this episode. 

[Enero]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

What bothers me is everyone being okay with Kate moving to India. It took six months to travel just in one direction. Realistically, how many times did these women who were family and loved one another expect to see each other for the rest of their lives? Two, three tops? And it's not like they didn't know. They'd all just made the journey!

I know this is an alternate universe but I found it strange that she would be allowed to travel that far unaccompanied by a gentleman or at least other family members even if they were women. Also, I’d think it could be dangerous for a woman to travel that long alone. I mean 6 months on a boat without any family or friends to accompany her could make her the target of some unsavory behavior from men.

My other question was where was Kate going to get the money to return to India when the Sharma’s supposedly used the last of their money to get to England? I understood this thought process before the deal with the Sheffields was destroyed, but after that fiasco she was still planning to leave. So where would she get the money to travel and what would she do once she got there since she’d no longer have the money from Edwina’s dowry to become a governess?

Regarding her family being okay with her move, Edwina really wasn’t okay with it. Though she didn’t have a meltdown about it like Anthony, perhaps  she and maybe Mary too had tried to convince Kate for a while to remain in London after Edwina found a husband and was married off, but to no avail. So by the time they arrived in London, Edwina and Mary had already come to accept Kate’s decision. Though Edwina did continue to express her desire for Kate to stay. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Enero

[GaT]

58 minutes ago, Enero said:

My other question was where was Kate going to get the money to return to India when the Sharma’s supposedly used the last of their money to get to England? I understood this thought process before the deal with the Sheffields was destroyed, but after that fiasco she was still planning to leave. So where would she get the money to travel and what would she do once she got there since she’d no longer have the money from Edwina’s dowry to become a governess?

Maybe she was going to become a governess to a family that was going back to India? That would have taken care of the costs, & given her protection.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

FWIW, I think that Daphne's objections to Edwina and her repeated statements re Anthony being with someone a little more like him was her grounded in her understanding that Edwina's personality and experience was probably not quite up to dealing with the Bridgertons and the running of such a large household. Edwina certainly found that she had a stronger personality by the end of the season but even then, she was still finding her own voice.

It does seem kind of strange to me that Mary was completely unaware of the Sheffields condition for Edwina's dowry. But it does show how much antipathy had been built up between her and her parents and how deep her grief was when her husband passed.

[Ohiopirate02]

42 minutes ago, GaT said:

Maybe she was going to become a governess to a family that was going back to India? That would have taken care of the costs, & given her protection.

That or get hired as a companion to a lady getting ready to make the voyage to meet her husband. 

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, GaT said:

Maybe she was going to become a governess to a family that was going back to India? That would have taken care of the costs, & given her protection.

Kate did say she had a job lined up. I assumed it may have been for the family she mentioned. If not for them, they could’ve found her something. Being a governess was a respectable position for an unmarried woman- not the greatest choice, but assuming the family treated you well, it offered an independent income and social protection.  

[Lady Whistleup]

Ok this was the episode where Kate and Anthony lost me. They're hurting poor Edwina. I can understand the first few times there's a spark they might want to deny it, but now they're practically moaning around each other. 

[bijoux]

I want to set up Dorset with somebody, does anyone have a candidate? Look at him all good natured and that was a bracing dunk behind Anthony Raging Bull-ing in the foreground.

 

[Enero]

6 hours ago, bijoux said:

I want to set up Dorset with somebody, does anyone have a candidate? Look at him all good natured and that was a bracing dunk behind Anthony Raging Bull-ing in the foreground.

I liked Dorset, but I don’t know if he’d make a good match for anyone considering what seemed like his propensity for travel to expand on his medical knowledge. Just with the little we learned about him, I could see him being a life-long bachelor. Though I think if he did find someone she’d have to be someone who was fine with joining him in his travels around the world. 

Regarding the splash, I had to laugh at Newton playing a part in Anthony’s embarrassing fall considering his dislike for him, at that point. Lol. How did he even end up behind him anyway? See, if Anthony had behaved and not got into a minor p*ssing contest with Dorset and allowed him to assist Kate as she exited the boat, perhaps he’d not suffered such embarrassment. Lol.

[mrsbagnet]

Benedict is my favorite Bridgerton. Between the nude modeling and that crack he made about Eloise overcounting the number of intelligent women in the house, I just love the character. He's humble, he's very funny, he's always smiling, and he's down for whatever.

Poor Violet, she looked like she was wavering between crying and smacking Anthony in the head when she was talking to him before the dinner with the Sheffields.

Edited June 7, 2022 by mrsbagnet

[katha]

I love that they have Violet always saying exactly the wrong thing to Anthony in particular. She means well and it comes from a place of love, but she always leads with "you're doing your duty wrong, your father would be so disappointed" and he totally shuts her down and you basically see that he dreads even having to talk to her most of the time. It's exactly the wrong approach to a son who was traumatized by his father's death and carries a lot of survivor's guilt anyway. You can see imagine how she has tried this tactic again and again for a decade and it constantly makes their relationship worse and she's frustrated and doubles down on it and their relationship gets even more damaged. A really good depiction of dysfunctional dynamics like that. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by katha

[wanderingstar]

Quote

And of course  the burden is too big for both Kate and Anthony to take care of everyone like that and and creates really screwed views of themselves and their worth (totally tied to their real and perceived duties).

One fascinating aspect of their story was how taking on the obligations after losing their fathers led to them not being in touch with their own feelings and needs. I think that’s partly why they both went back and forth between fighting their feelings for each other and giving into them.

Quote

I want to set up Dorset with somebody, does anyone have a candidate?

Um, me? LOL. I enjoyed Dorset so much. When he was talking about possibly visiting Kate in India, I was kinda getting into it.

Quote

Everyone has to be a bit/a lot stupid for it to go on as it does

Whew - there is A LOT of that on this show. 😆

I am curious to see how the relationship between Kate and Lady Violet unfolds next season. They're both strong personalities, so I wonder if that will cause any friction.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Gillian Rosh

[Camera One]

I'm glad Anthony finally realized he should not be marrying Edwina and they acknowledged their feelings towards once another.  But of course, it ended back at square one with Kate asking Anthony to marry her sister.  Which was frustrating, since the rest of the episode was relatively strong.

At this point, they've done so many episodes of Edwina being a clueless giddy schoolgirl concerning Anthony that I sadly wouldn't care when her feelings get hurt.

I must not have been paying attention, since I didn't know only Kate knew of the deal with the grandparents, and Mary didn't.  As others said, where did Mary (and Edwina) think the dowry money was coming from?  

I did like seeing Mary having more scenes.  She was great at dinner.

Why didn't Lady Danbury arrange an initial luncheon or tea with just the grandparents, Mary, Kate and Edwina?  Or better yet, just Mary with her parents.  If it got ugly, at least the Bridgertons wouldn't have a front row seat.  

I'm still lukewarm on Benedict and his storylines, though it was neat the model wanted to learn art.  Eloise had a bit of chemistry with the printer guy.  Does the guy know Penelope's secret?  I forgot if we previously saw her interacting with him when she was doing one of her drop-offs.  

Lady Featherington said she didn't want to disappoint her daughter by calling off the engagement, but I suspect a part of her still believed this current predicament was preferable to having her rival's daughter becoming the new mistress of the house.  

I'm sad there are only 3 episodes left this season.  I think by this point last season, I just found it difficult to like either protagonist, and I don't feel that way this season despite the messy relationship situation.

[katha]

Yeah, I thought the writing and particularly the acting really contributed to understanding why Kate and Anthony do the trainwreck things they do. The dysfunction in the family dynamics, them thinking that they have to take up everything for everyone. And their wrong-headed notion that love means having to constantly sacrifice and hurt yourself for others. Anthony is slowly getting a clearer picture, but Kate is still in massive denial about everything. 

I did feel for Edwina, because the Sharma dysfunction produced a situation where she's constantly treated as a sheltered child so she keeps on acting like one. Kate is her de facto mother figure, but Kate is way too young and inexperienced to take that on and becomes all domineering and controlling about it, infantalizing Edwina all the time. While Mary acts more like a sister and is super passive, she only starts realizing this. Like seen with the Sheffields. Kate made a deal with them, not understanding how emotionally abusive they are. Mary just starts taking charge, but she should have been the responsible adult in the family unit for a long time. Instead Kate took that role on in wrong-headed ways.