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James Alexander Malcolm MacKenzie Fraser

peacefrog

By peacefrog
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Firebunny
Firebunny

To make a short story long...   When I watched the first episode for the first time, I got to the part where Jamie, covered in blood, says, "You're coming with me," and I immediately texted my frien

WatchrTina
WatchrTina

I'll just leave this here.  

GHScorpiosRule
GHScorpiosRule

He's Hot.

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jqdeco

jqdeco

New to this forum and so thankful that I am not the only one obsessed with this character! I stumbled on this show last week and have been watching it from the beginning on On Demand.  I am loving all the pictures and links you have all posted. I have literally spent the entire work day reading through all the posts. Thankfully my laptop is upgrading to Windows 10 and it's taking forever, so I have a good excuse.

  • Love 5
WatchrTina

WatchrTina

Okay I want to know who is in charge of Sam's page in the Internet Movie Database (IMDb.com).  I ask because the main photo being used for Sam has finally, FINALLY been changed from that awful Sam-in-a field-wearing-a-girly-cardigan photo (seriously who picked THAT one?) but instead of choosing one of the hundreds of recent, very flattering photos of Sam, someone picked one of his oldest photos and not a very flattering one at that.  He looks like a kid with bad skin.  

We need Caitriona to get involved here.  She's his friend.  She's a former model.  And the head-shot she picked for her IMDb page is stunning.  She needs to help Sam pick one for his page.  Because whoever has been advising him -- they have lousy taste.

  • Love 1
GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

On 12/15/2017 at 10:41 PM, WatchrTina said:

Okay I want to know who is in charge of Sam's page in the Internet Movie Database (IMDb.com).  I ask because the main photo being used for Sam has finally, FINALLY been changed from that awful Sam-in-a field-wearing-a-girly-cardigan photo (seriously who picked THAT one?) but instead of choosing one of the hundreds of recent, very flattering photos of Sam, someone picked one of his oldest photos and not a very flattering one at that.  He looks like a kid with bad skin.  

We need Caitriona to get involved here.  She's his friend.  She's a former model.  And the head-shot she picked for her IMDb page is stunning.  She needs to help Sam pick one for his page.  Because whoever has been advising him -- they have lousy taste.

After reading this, I'm not even going there! I think someone told me that IMDB is fan-based? That it's fans who supply the information and what have you? Maybe someone should let Sam ken? Or find out who the foock is press agent is?

WatchrTina

WatchrTina

(edited)
54 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I think someone told me that IMDB is fan-based?

Well yes and no.  For example I spotted the other day that David Berry only had one photo on his IMDb page of him as Lord John so I went looking for another photo of him in the bazillion that have been loaded for the show and for Sam and I found one that he and Sam are both in (on the road to Helwater.)  I tagged it with his name and my input was accepted.  I don't know if anyone behind the scenes double-checked my input and validated my assertion that he really WAS in that photo.

On the other hand, I think the main photo (the head-shot) IS controlled by the actor/actress (or whoever they delegate that sort of thing to.)  The main photos are usually good, flattering, formal head-shots of the actor/actress (like the one for Caitriona) and I think that's because IMDb has become a tool for casting agents, not just a database for fans.  So I think most actors have someone keeping an eye on IMDb (at least intermittently) and I have always assumed that there was a channel for the actor or his delegate to be validated (like on Twitter) so that they could provide key information and alter anything that was incorrect -- at least in the personal info section.

Edited by WatchrTina
  • Love 1
DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)
9 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Well yes and no.  For example I spotted the other day that David Berry only had one photo on his IMDb page of him as Lord John so I went looking for another photo of him in the bazillion that have been loaded for the show and for Sam and I found one that he and Sam are both in (on the road to Helwater.)  I tagged it with his name and my input was accepted.  I don't know if anyone behind the scenes double-checked my input and validated my assertion that he really WAS in that photo.

On the other hand, I think the main photo (the head-shot) IS controlled by the actor/actress (or whoever they delegate that sort of thing to.)  The main photos are usually good, flattering, formal head-shots of the actor/actress (like the one for Caitriona) and I think that's because IMDb has become a tool for casting agents, not just a database for fans.  So I think most actors have someone keeping an eye on IMDb (at least intermittently) and I have always assumed that there was a channel for the actor or his delegate to be validated (like on Twitter) so that they could provide key information and alter anything that was incorrect -- at least in the personal info section.

My understanding is IMDb is member-edited and actors' pages are not necessarily maintained by the the actors themselves. They do have someone checking "new" members' additions, but I don't think they check every submission. I'm sure some agents do maintain their clients' pages, but I have no way of knowing if that's the case for Sam and Cait. I would assume it's not the case for everyone considering how many don't have photos or much biographical information at all.

Maybe try and change the photo for Sam and see what happens?

Edited by DittyDotDot
  • Love 2
Scarlett45

Scarlett45

On 12/15/2017 at 9:41 PM, WatchrTina said:

Okay I want to know who is in charge of Sam's page in the Internet Movie Database (IMDb.com).  I ask because the main photo being used for Sam has finally, FINALLY been changed from that awful Sam-in-a field-wearing-a-girly-cardigan photo (seriously who picked THAT one?) but instead of choosing one of the hundreds of recent, very flattering photos of Sam, someone picked one of his oldest photos and not a very flattering one at that.  He looks like a kid with bad skin.  

We need Caitriona to get involved here.  She's his friend.  She's a former model.  And the head-shot she picked for her IMDb page is stunning.  She needs to help Sam pick one for his page.  Because whoever has been advising him -- they have lousy taste.

Ha! You’re so funny. 

toolazy

toolazy

1 hour ago, Nidratime said:

Don't know how he feels about this project, but it looks like that earlier movie that Sam made which had trouble with its release is coming out in DVD, I think.

There's a trailer here:

http://www.outlandertvnews.com/2018/02/exclusive-trailer-premiere-of-sam-heughans-when-the-starlight-ends/

It is so, so weird to hear him speaking in an American accent.  

WatchrTina

WatchrTina

(edited)

Hmmm.  I just heard something from the man himself -- Sam Heughan -- that I did not know.  In the interview below (from the press junket for "The Spy Who Dumped Me") Sam says he's been bulking up for movie role that he's working on THIS summer.  I didn't know he was cast in another movie role.  I'm delighted but given the social-media-permeated world we live in I'm really surprised that I had not heard of it before.  I'm guessing he must mean "Bloodshot" (release date 2020), since that's the only future project shown for him on IMDb.  If not, does anyone here know what movie Sam is working on this summer?  UPDATE:  Nevermind.  I just went and looked at Sam's Instagram feed and there is a recent shot there of him working out with the caption: "Training going well for Bloodshot.  Just can't pick up my phone anymore."

BTW, if you watch this interview a fair amount of it is is focused on Sam's looks and in particular his body, which makes me slightly uncomfortable.  That being said, the photos and video of Sam working out that are used in the piece were clearly taken with Sam's permission (I think some are related to his appearing in an upcoming issue of Men's Health) so I can't feel TOO guilty about looking at them and . . . being appreciative.  :)

 

Edited by WatchrTina
  • Love 2
AuntieMame

AuntieMame

I read somewhere that when Diana Gabaldon was working on the original Outlander that her husband read a draft and in response to the character of Jaime said to her: “You really don’t know anything about men do you?”

so im putting this out here. Why is Jaime such a perfect romantic hero for women and how does this compare and contrast to our experience of actual men? What parts of Jaime are all about stereotypes of traditional masculinity and male socialization and what parts aren’t? And on a more meta level, what part of buying into this fantasy as women helps us resolve the conflict of interacting with and being married to actual men? 

GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

No disrespect, but since Jamie is fictional and has a whole host of flaws (I never understood the “he’s so PERFECT with no flaws’) and for me, that makes him Perfect. Because he’s not.

And I’m not one who is interested in comparing fictional characters to real people.

I love Jaime in spite of his flaws. They’re what makes him such a complex character.

But that’s just me.

nodorothyparker

nodorothyparker

For what it's worth my husband, an actual man who's watched this with me mostly out a mix of reluctant curiosity and bemusement, has said largely the same thing: That Jamie is clearly written as a woman's fantasy of what she thinks the ideal man to be.  He doesn't quite buy that sex with Claire has to be so incredibly mindblowing that a guy would spend 20 odd years honorably pining over it or that he would always be so quick to consider it a fair tradeoff for the amount of trouble Claire often seems to bring with her.

Of course, he's been mostly pro-Frank all the way along and can talk forever about how shoddy time travel appears to have been thought out in this series if you let him.  He's a real romantic like that.  Me, I don't really buy into the whole greatest One True Love of All Time 4Eva thing.  Even when the plotting is terrible, this is still great escapist fare and I'm good with that.

  • Love 4
Cdh20

Cdh20

(edited)
22 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

For what it's worth my husband, an actual man who's watched this with me mostly out a mix of reluctant curiosity and bemusement, has said largely the same thing: That Jamie is clearly written as a woman's fantasy of what she thinks the ideal man to be.  He doesn't quite buy that sex with Claire has to be so incredibly mindblowing that a guy would spend 20 odd years honorably pining over it or that he would always be so quick to consider it a fair tradeoff for the amount of trouble Claire often seems to bring with her.

Of course, he's been mostly pro-Frank all the way along and can talk forever about how shoddy time travel appears to have been thought out in this series if you let him.  He's a real romantic like that.  Me, I don't really buy into the whole greatest One True Love of All Time 4Eva thing.  Even when the plotting is terrible, this is still great escapist fare and I'm good with that.

Your husband sounds like mine- He always reminds me that Jamie was invented by a woman, he feels bad for Frank, & he thinks Claire is so much trouble that Jamie should have enjoyed that 20 yr break! 

I watched the first 3 seasons without him.  I know he loves historical fiction so when I wouldn't stop talking about the show to whoever would listen, he said "ok if you want to watch it again, let's do it." I knew he thought I loved Jamie just because he is HOT, but I wanted him to see the real reason- my real reason is because Jamie loves Claire unconditionally! She can truly be herself & he never thinks less of her. So that answers my question for Auntie Mame! We want a husband that not only loves us, listens to us, respects us, wants us, & cannot live without us! 

Edited by Cdh20
  • Love 2
Cdh20

Cdh20

(edited)
1 hour ago, AuntieMame said:

I read somewhere that when Diana Gabaldon was working on the original Outlander that her husband read a draft and in response to the character of Jaime said to her: “You really don’t know anything about men do you?”

so im putting this out here. Why is Jaime such a perfect romantic hero for women and how does this compare and contrast to our experience of actual men? What parts of Jaime are all about stereotypes of traditional masculinity and male socialization and what parts aren’t? And on a more meta level, what part of buying into this fantasy as women helps us resolve the conflict of interacting with and being married to actual men? 

Jamie is far from perfect, but I've never loved a Tv character this much. And I have never loved a book character, so Sam gets all the credit for me picking up those books after seeing the show! 

I doubt any of us want to compare the  real men  we live with to a fantasy, haha! 

Edited by Cdh20
  • Love 1
AuntieMame

AuntieMame

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

Jamie is far from perfect, but I've never loved a Tv character this much. And I have never loved a book character, so Sam gets all the credit for me picking up those books after seeing the show! 

I doubt any of us want to compare the  real men  we live with to a fantasy, haha! 

I like him too and I've had other book and tv boyfriends that I adored. Ok, not fair to compare a fantasy to an actual person and I wouldn't want it done to me. I was less after that specificity and more wondering if our fantasy men help us overlook some of the realities we are forced to accept. Gabaldons husband dismissing Jaime as so unreal as to be laughable? This brings me up short.

Cdh20

Cdh20

4 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

I like him too and I've had other book and tv boyfriends that I adored. Ok, not fair to compare a fantasy to an actual person and I wouldn't want it done to me. I was less after that specificity and more wondering if our fantasy men help us overlook some of the realities we are forced to accept. Gabaldons husband dismissing Jaime as so unreal as to be laughable? This brings me up short.

My husband likes Jamie- he likes that he is loyal, faithful, physically strong, but he thinks it's a bit much that he can do everything well -like when he caught the fish with his hands a few episodes ago-he laughs that off as "Jamie can do anything!" 

My husband has many of Jamie's qualities but he is NOT romantic at all! I will say that I thought I liked romantic Jamie, but some of the cheese out of his mouth this season I could live without-he might be sexier if he shut up! (I think this is actually Diana's fault, or the show writer's)

  • Love 1
AuntieMame

AuntieMame

Now see, my worry was that the loyal, protective, supportive aspects of Jamie were the ones being jettisoned. I can chalk the good at everything Jamie up to general Gary Stuness. 

Can someone please explain to me why my autocorrect replaces a CORRECTLY spelled word with a different word of its choosing? If this is what we have to look forward to with AI than I'm not impressed. 

GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

And to every husband/boyfriend/man who says that Gabaldon doesn't know anything about men, I say for each and every MALE author who's written women ridiculously and unbelievably and through THEIR lens, they don't know anything about women. With a couple of exceptions of course. There are a few authors I read (women), who do know a thing or two about men, and it shows in their writing.

  • Love 2
GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

5 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Plenty of male authors do write women terribly or unbelievably.  Plenty of them also write women as wish fulfillment.  That's not a new criticism at all.  It doesn't have to be an either/or.

I agree with this. But maybe it's just my reflex action; a need to revert to a tween in coming back with that, when practically every week I see/read (not just here) how Jamie isn't realistic; how Gabaldon or the writers of this show, "don't know men" etc. He isn't realistic. But this show is not news or a documentary. It's fantasy. Escapism. Enough depressing stuff in the world, I think maybe I need to avoid boards so no one will harsh on my mellow. Know what I mean?

Cdh20

Cdh20

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I agree with this. But maybe it's just my reflex action; a need to revert to a tween in coming back with that, when practically every week I see/read (not just here) how Jamie isn't realistic; how Gabaldon or the writers of this show, "don't know men" etc. He isn't realistic. But this show is not news or a documentary. It's fantasy. Escapism. Enough depressing stuff in the world, I think maybe I need to avoid boards so no one will harsh on my mellow. Know what I mean?

I do know what you mean - in my real life friends everyone loves Jamie but I was appalled to find out ( on message boards) that some people don’t ! 

AuntieMame

AuntieMame

Apologies that I’m harshing people’s mellow, I’ll try not to. And of course men have written women with absolute abandon both as wish fulfillment and in absolute ignorance posing as expertise. But usually you know when you’re reading a Clive Cussler or a Harlequin. I didn’t class Outlander in that category so was surprised by the quote from Gabaldons husband. Anyway. 

On 12/30/2018 at 9:55 AM, nodorothyparker said:

For what it's worth my husband, an actual man who's watched this with me mostly out a mix of reluctant curiosity and bemusement, has said largely the same thing: That Jamie is clearly written as a woman's fantasy of what she thinks the ideal man to be.  He doesn't quite buy that sex with Claire has to be so incredibly mindblowing that a guy would spend 20 odd years honorably pining over it or that he would always be so quick to consider it a fair tradeoff for the amount of trouble Claire often seems to bring with her.

Of course, he's been mostly pro-Frank all the way along and can talk forever about how shoddy time travel appears to have been thought out in this series if you let him.  He's a real romantic like that.  Me, I don't really buy into the whole greatest One True Love of All Time 4Eva thing.  Even when the plotting is terrible, this is still great escapist fare and I'm good with that.

Im with Mr. nodorothyparker I’m feeling bad for Frank. The conflation in the books and in the show of Frank with Black Jack Randall elicits the negative emotional response to Frank (i.e. not the one true love and then the marriage was strained after Claire returned, but it is an emotional response you can’t think too hard about otherwise you do start sympathizing with Frank. 

Mr. nodorothyparker was right about the honorable pining too. As much as I enjoyed the Helwater stuff as good reading and viewing, Jamie’s romantic life in the decade without Claire was....just off somehow. I know it was two decades but Jaime was in prison for a lot of that time. Even at Helwater it isn’t like the guy could date. 

We have him blackmailed into very hot sex and married to Laoghaire. I never believed that Jamie would marry Laoghaire no matter what Jenny said. He didn’t love her and while he never would have found another Claire, I think he would have tried/hoped to find someone he did live, even if not with the same intensity that he loved Claire. The Loaghaire plot post the witch trials just never sold me. Claire aside, how could you ever trust someone who was willing to see someone burn to secure a romantic interest, maybe? Jamie isn’t dumb and loyalty and trust are much bigger deals in that culture. Even as an innocent bystander/secondary character, I would never trust Laoghaire again. 

On 12/30/2018 at 10:10 AM, Cdh20 said:

Your husband sounds like mine- He always reminds me that Jamie was invented by a woman, he feels bad for Frank, & he thinks Claire is so much trouble that Jamie should have enjoyed that 20 yr break! 

 my real reason is because Jamie loves Claire unconditionally! She can truly be herself & he never thinks less of her. So that answers my question for Auntie Mame! We want a husband that not only loves us, listens to us, respects us, wants us, & cannot live without us! 

I’m Loling that several husbands here think that Claire is a lot of trouble because I’ve never thought of it that way but I can see their point now that it’s been brought to my attention. Is it the bossiness? Because when I go into nurse/medical mode I can be the same. Especially if it is an emergency and I have to snap people out of momentary shock and get them moving. 

This is what we all want from men, that unconditional love and being truly seen for ourselves. Of course men want that too, but it isn’t as tied to acceptance and self worth as it is for women. 

A wonderful example of this kind of live that is believable is in an old, forgotten YA historical called The Perilous Gard. The character in that personifies what you’re talking about in a believable way. Possibly my first fictional boyfriend. Throwing it out to see if there is anyone here who remembers this obscure little book. 

As for Jamie, no, it isn’t the hotness, though that is certainly nice. It is the fact that he is so devoted, not just across time and decades but in the day to day. He wants to hear what Claire has to say. He sees her. He respects her as a partner, that is what beguiles. And that kind of passionate sex is a type of love all its own. The catch for most of us is that we don’t get both consistently in marriage. 

As for writing male and female characters by opposite sex writers, I think writers often do best when they aren’t consciously trying to solve the mysteries of the other and just write a character with human motives. 

  • Love 1
Scarlett45

Scarlett45

47 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

Mr. nodorothyparker was right about the honorable pining too. As much as I enjoyed the Helwater stuff as good reading and viewing, Jamie’s romantic life in the decade without Claire was....just off somehow. I know it was two decades but Jaime was in prison for a lot of that time. Even at Helwater it isn’t like the guy could date. 

We have him blackmailed into very hot sex and married to Laoghaire. I never believed that Jamie would marry Laoghaire no matter what Jenny said. He didn’t love her and while he never would have found another Claire, I think he would have tried/hoped to find someone he did live, even if not with the same intensity that he loved Claire. The Loaghaire plot post the witch trials just never sold me. Claire aside, how could you ever trust someone who was willing to see someone burn to secure a romantic interest, maybe? Jamie isn’t dumb and loyalty and trust are much bigger deals in that culture. Even as an innocent bystander/secondary character, I would never trust Laoghaire again. 

Yes Jaime was in prison for a long time, so he wasn’t free to have a romantic/family life. Marrying Laoghaire did feel like a plot device to me, it made it seem like DG wanted him married (and separated) to someone awful so that when Claire returned there would just be a “teeny tiny obstacle” to them being together but not a real one. If he had just been single there would’ve been no drama  

 

Because if Jaime has married a nice widow whom he did love, and they had some more kids together, I don’t think Jaime would’ve left his new wife and kids/step kids to return to Claire. I also don’t think Claire would’ve expected him to - and would’ve turned around and gone back through the stones. 

 

I wouldve prefered if Jaime had not been coerced by Willie’s mother, but it’s realistic. Men of low status where the sexual play things of their “betters” same as women. A female servant couldn’t have fought back or would’ve risked being fired or worse if an aristocrat wanted her. 

  • Love 4
Hannah Lee

Hannah Lee

(edited)
11 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

"He wants to hear what Claire has to say. He sees her. He respects her as a partner, that is what beguiles."

Agree, entirely.  Sure there is the whole romantic setting where they met - the time travel, the wild Scottish Highlands and rough living, the slow reveal to each other of who they were while the audience knew more (she thought he was a stable hand, he thought she was just a meandering Englishwoman - she didn't realize he was a Laird and nephew of the MacKenzie, an educated enlightened nature-sensible soldier, he didn't know she was a time traveling, stone hopping out of time healer/nurse/doctor with a mind and goals of her own.)  But the appeal of Jamie, for me, was always that he paid attention to Claire, not just seeing her as an attractive woman, but seeing HER, in her entirety, including her mind, her thoughts, her words, her experiences and her body/enjoyment of him.  And after the time she bolted for the stones and he gave her a beating, and she pushed back, he agreed to partner WITH her - not above her, not for her, not at her as an object, but WITH her.  IIRC, the big friction between Claire and Frank in S1 E1 is that Frank couldn't (or wouldn't) see Claire, and acknowledge her, interact with her,  as who she was, who she had become while they were apart during the war (and probably, she couldn't see him, either, though the show didn't explore that.) and her interactions with Jamie stood in contrast to that.

What's amazing to me is how much people struggle with that, because in some ways, it's an easy thing for someone to do, anyone, man or woman : Just pay attention to the person in front of you no matter WHO they are:  listen to them, respect them, talk to them - even if you disagree with them or don't understand them entirely.  THAT's the thing that sparks the connection and romance.  THAT's the fantasy.  But that it has to be a fantasy is a sad thing, because it's something more people could actually do for the people who are important in their lives. 

The muscles, the kilt, the accent, the dirt and the dirks, the eyes and the whatever, the objectifying ....that's just the trappings!  It's the SEEING and the LISTENING and the PARTNERING between Jamie and Claire that's the real appealing, sexy thing and that thing that for me, causes me to want to keep watching.

Edited by Hannah Lee
  • Love 9
WatchrTina

WatchrTina

(edited)
On January 1, 2019 at 10:22 AM, AuntieMame said:

Claire aside, how could you ever trust someone who was willing to see someone burn to secure a romantic interest, maybe? Jamie isn’t dumb and loyalty and trust are much bigger deals in that culture. Even as an innocent bystander/secondary character, I would never trust Laoghaire again. 

I thought it was a mistake for the show to depict Jamie as knowing that it was Laoghaire who got Claire arrested for witchcraft.  In my head canon, Book!Jamie does NOT know that.  He rides to the rescue, whisks Claire away from the witch trial, and then Claire confesses to being a time-traveller and THAT pretty much knocks all other topics of conversation off the table.  After that they go to the stones, Claire makes her decision to stay, and after that big dramatic declaration of mutual commitment they are busy focusing on the future, meeting Jenny, coping with Taran McQuarrie & his men, rescuing Jamie, etc.  I've always assumed that the name Laoghaire is never mentioned between them again until that wee besom storms into their bedroom 20 years later.  (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but in the book my memory is that she does NOT accompany Colum to the meeting with The Olde Fox -- Mrs. Fitz comes along to look after the men's domestic needs).  

Bottom line, in my head Book!Jamie could NEVER marry the woman who tried to get Claire killed. So in my head, Book!Jamie doesn't know and he is shocked, SHOCKED I say, when Claire finally tells him what Laoghaire did to her all those years before.

As for TV!Jamie, well, I just have to let that go.  I know they included that scene where Claire tells Jamie to thank Laoghaire ("for what I dinna ken") in order to make it plausible that Jamie would marry Laoghaire years later (after all if Claire could forgive her . . . ).  But mostly I have to just not think about it too much.

Edited by WatchrTina
  • Love 2
AuntieMame

AuntieMame

Yeah WatchrTina, agreed, best not to think too hard about the Laoghaire and Jamie marriage plot. No good comes of it. 

On 1/1/2019 at 7:31 PM, Hannah Lee said:

Agree, entirely.  Sure there is the whole romantic setting where they met - the time travel, the wild Scottish Highlands and rough living, the slow reveal to each other of who they were while the audience knew more (she thought he was a stable hand, he thought she was just a meandering Englishwoman - she didn't realize he was a Laird and nephew of the MacKenzie, an educated enlightened nature-sensible soldier, he didn't know she was a time traveling, stone hopping out of time healer/nurse/doctor with a mind and goals of her own.)  But the appeal of Jamie, for me, was always that he paid attention to Claire, not just seeing her as an attractive woman, but seeing HER, in her entirety, including her mind, her thoughts, her words, her experiences and her body/enjoyment of him.  And after the time she bolted for the stones and he gave her a beating, and she pushed back, he agreed to partner WITH her - not above her, not for her, not at her as an object, but WITH her.  IIRC, the big friction between Claire and Frank in S1 E1 is that Frank couldn't (or wouldn't) see Claire, and acknowledge her, interact with her,  as who she was, who she had become while they were apart during the war (and probably, she couldn't see him, either, though the show didn't explore that.) and her interactions with Jamie stood in contrast to that.

What's amazing to me is how much people struggle with that, because in some ways, it's an easy thing for someone to do, anyone, man or woman : Just pay attention to the person in front of you no matter WHO they are:  listen to them, respect them, talk to them - even if you disagree with them or don't understand them entirely.  THAT's the thing that sparks the connection and romance.  THAT's the fantasy.  But that it has to be a fantasy is a sad thing, because it's something more people could actually do for the people who are important in their lives. 

The muscles, the kilt, the accent, the dirt and the dirks, the eyes and the whatever, the objectifying ....that's just the trappings!  It's the SEEING and the LISTENING and the PARTNERING between Jamie and Claire that's the real appealing, sexy thing and that thing that for me, causes me to want to keep watching.

All of this Hannah Lee and it is this fantasy that keeps me watching. The hope of having a genuine partner. You are right that it is terribly sad that for so many of us this is a fantasy. Interesting observation about the hidden strain between Frank and Claire that ultimately made Jamie so attractive. I wonder how many literary romances where this is the fantasy, no matter how buried in the other trappings. 

  • Love 1
WatchrTina

WatchrTina

(edited)

So this morning I re-read some of our commentary from the first half of season 1. It was a fun walk down memory lane, recollecting how excited we all were and watching us all fall in love with Caitriona and Sam as Claire and Jamie.  What prompted me to write is that I recently binge-watched the first two seasons of the The Crown and it really is amazing how Claire Foy changes over the episodes depicting at first a very young and naive Princess and, by her last episode 2 years later, a canny and mature Queen -- one who is approximately 15 year older than in the first ep.  It got me thinking about what an amazing job OUR cast is doing as they "age" through the seasons.  I know Cait is the one who's gotten the Golden Globe nominations (and I'm delighted for her) but it's Sam's depiction of Jamie that continues to blow me away.  When I think back to that moment in "The Garrison Commander" when Claire has just been told she has to marry Jamie and he walks over the hill to sit beside her and discuss it -- is there any doubt in anyone's mind that that is a very young man?  Especially that moment when he confesses to being a virgin.  And yet the Jamie we see in the season finale of season 4 is every bit as believable as a man in his late 40s who as seen some shit.  Sam has only aged 4-5 years during the course of filming the series but Jamie has aged 20+ years and it is totally believable.  

And this shallow note -- much as I enjoyed watching 20-somthing Jamie, it's 40-something Jamie that I think is really hot.

Edited by WatchrTina
  • Love 6
GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

And this shallow note -- much as I enjoyed watching 20-somthing Jamie, it's 40-something Jamie that I think is really hot.

When Sam is given the material and when he puts his own spin or allowed to elevate the material, I can overlook that FUGLY thing that is supposed to pass for Jamie’s hair in this last season and just swoon o’er the hotness of a 40-something Jamie.

Otherwise, for me, the Jamie leading up to Culloden is sae verra hawt and sexay to me. ESPECIALLY the words from the buik where he tells Claire how he would thank God for giving him a woman as Claire and that he loved her well” as he’s kissing her and she’s crying. SIGH.🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰

Or his AMAZING performance in season three post-Culloden. It’s CRIMINAL that he didn’t win, let alone not even nominated.

Aye, still bitter over that.

Cdh20

Cdh20

I'll take Jamie Fraser at any age! I love hotheaded young Jamie, but most of my friends love older Jamie, I think because he is more romantic.

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 4:20 PM, WatchrTina said:

So this morning I re-read some of our commentary from the first half of season 1. It was a fun walk down memory lane, recollecting how excited we all were and watching us all fall in love with Caitriona and Sam as Claire and Jamie.  What prompted me to write is that I recently binge-watched the first two seasons of the The Crown and it really is amazing how Claire Foy changes over the episodes depicting at first a very young and naive Princess and, by her last episode 2 years later, a canny and mature Queen -- one who is approximately 15 year older than in the first ep.  It got me thinking about what an amazing job OUR cast is doing as they "age" through the seasons.  I know Cait is the one who's gotten the Golden Globe nominations (and I'm delighted for her) but it's Sam's depiction of Jamie that continues to blow me away.  When I think back to that moment in "The Garrison Commander" when Claire has just been told she has to marry Jamie and he walks over the hill to sit beside her and discuss it -- is there any doubt in anyone's mind that that is a very young man?  Especially that moment when he confesses to being a virgin.  And yet the Jamie we see in the season finale of season 4 is every bit as believable as a man in his late 40s who as seen some shit.  Sam has only aged 4-5 years during the course of filming the series but Jamie has aged 20+ years and it is totally believable.  

And this shallow note -- much as I enjoyed watching 20-somthing Jamie, it's 40-something Jamie that I think is really hot.

Just watching the Crown now, on epi 2 of the second season, must agree the acting is superb, & the costumes as well!

justmehere

justmehere

On 1/1/2019 at 9:22 AM, AuntieMame said:

This is what we all want from men, that unconditional love and being truly seen for ourselves.

On 1/1/2019 at 7:31 PM, Hannah Lee said:

It's the SEEING and the LISTENING and the PARTNERING between Jamie and Claire that's the real appealing, sexy thing

Hope this works: I saw this on Terry Dresbach's Outlander Costume Twitter feed re: her similar feelings about Jamie. There are several tweets in the thread, ending in a lovely photo -- very romantic:

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