Winning Time: The Rise Of The Lakers Dynasty - General Discussion

[DoctorAtomic]

I didn't know the playoffs had byes back then so the Lakers are losing money by winning. I would guess that's why we don't have them anymore. 

What a great joke about the priest rooting for the Celtics. 

On 5/2/2022 at 5:21 PM, nilyank said:

At the end of the day Buss needed to be the one to make the decision about who was going to be the coach but I really wanted to which way West would have gone.

Sure, the owner can do that, but I tend to think it's better the owner hires a competent front office; general manger, operations staff, and they make these decisions. It doesn't look like the NBA really had that quite yet which is making things interesting, but I don't know if it makes for a stable organizational structure. Take the Steinbrenner Yankees and it can go the wrong way too. tbh, West should be making the personnel decisions. Under Pros it did say 'will keep Riley'.

I'm not sure why they had Rhonda lose the baby and it not be Magic's. Cookie knows he messes around. I suppose the point might be is how many others out there might have happened or if he paid to make the situation go away. 

On 5/1/2022 at 8:05 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

The ongoing McKinney/Westhead/Riley episode also came to a nice conclusion.

It's hard to see how a doctor would have cleared McKinney. It's too bad they couldn't have let him have a spot on the bench, but he'd never go for it. It's hard to see how he could have done better than Westhead and Riley. It's kind of a cop out on the show's part that McKinney wasn't mentally fit because it makes the decision easy. If he were really ready to go, then there's a real dilemma. 

Is Jim Lampley supposed to be Chick's sidekick calling the game. He looks just like him.

Claire going bonkers after the series win with Jeannie in the box was fantastic. 

It's a nice touch that Magic is clipping out Bird's press and the callback to hugging Kareem. I would like to see a little more basketball though. There's no way that Celtics team was beating Philadelphia. 

On 5/2/2022 at 12:30 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

Apparently, in real life Haywood and Kareem were not friends. 

That's too bad because their scenes were really strong. I liked how it played out on the show. Well done final scene with them. Hughes was actually really great with no dialogue there until the final lines. 

Nice foreshadowing on Magic working on the skyhook.

[Athena5217]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Sure, the owner can do that, but I tend to think it's better the owner hires a competent front office; general manger, operations staff, and they make these decisions. It doesn't look like the NBA really had that quite yet which is making things interesting, but I don't know if it makes for a stable organizational structure.

Jerry West did not become general manager of the Lakers until 1982. Before that he was a scout. I think the show is playing it loose with West’s role in 1980 when McKinney was fired, but I don’t think it is presenting West as a GM. So I agree with you in principle about the roles of the owner and GM, but it was right back then for Buss to make the call about McKinney.

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It's hard to see how he could have done better than Westhead and Riley. It's kind of a cop out on the show's part that McKinney wasn't mentally fit because it makes the decision easy. If he were really ready to go, then there's a real dilemma. 

McKinney had memory problems for the rest of his life so the show might be close to reality with this issue. It is strange sometimes what the show chooses to be factual about and what it makes up. If I were Cookie or Magic, I might be really angry about that pregnant friend storyline. I’m sure they have tough skin, but still it seemed so unnecessary to have that in the show. There was so much real drama with McKinney, Haywood, Magic and Bird, etc. the show does not need to create more.

[Lady Whistleup]

McKinney in real life coached the Pacers for a few years, but ran into memory and stamina problems and left coaching altogether. He owned a sporting goods business. He passed away in 2018, apparently from after-effects of the biking accident so many years earlier. 

[DoctorAtomic]

What is Bill's position in the organization? 

[nilyank]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

What is Bill's position in the organization? 

Bill is the GM.

[DoctorAtomic]

He certainly shirked off any responsibility on the coaching debate.

[whiporee]

I know he was critical of the show, but I don't know how Kareem can possibly be upset by his portrayal. Dude was close to sainthood. He should have made the trip, though. 

For his part, too. I know Magic had a documentary to sell, but I don't think he could have come across much better than he did. Determined, cheerful,. flamboyant. 

Larry Bird might be pissed. But even he, when it was shown as not a figment of Magic's imagination, was pretty true-to-life. 

[ninjago]

This last episode was fantastic.  Not to be a total cornball, but the band of brothers element-the camaraderie between Kareem and Magic, Kareem and Spencer, Riley and Westheas, Westhead and McKinney, Jeannie and Claire, even Bill and poor Jerry West-added some warmth to the fun, sleazy, cut-throat tone.

Speaking of Jerry West, he was the best part of the show.  I know he hates it, but as a lifelong fan of terrible (Minnesota) sports team, I related totally to his roller coaster, unhinged emotions while watching/not watching the game. 

[UrbanShocker]

Was Jeanie really naive enough to think her dad was going make her treasurer?  Well at least her dad didn't make one of her drunk brothers the treasurer and went with Claire instead (good call). I'm surprised they didn't show (or maybe they did and I missed it) that Dr. Buss eventually paid off his loan by making Great Western Bank the sponsor of the Forum.

Also, I know they needed it for a plot device so I'll look the other way, but famously game 6 of the 1980 Finals was only broadcast live in LA, Philly and handful of west coast cities.  It was on tape delay at 11:30 pm everywhere else, so Magic's family in Detroit would not have watched it live.

[grawlix]

On 5/3/2022 at 6:25 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

IIs Jim Lampley supposed to be Chick's sidekick calling the game. He looks just like him.

The Lakers liked to pair Chick with former Laker players .  After Riley, the color guy was Keith Erickson who was a reserve for many years.  Following Erickson and current color guy is another former Laker, Stu Lantz.

[edhopper]

That was fun. I didn't mind the little changes to the story, I wasn't expecting a Ken Burns documentary. 

I wonder if they will skip 81 next season and go to 82?

[nilyank]

1 hour ago, edhopper said:

I wonder if they will skip 81 next season and go to 82?

Considering that Lakers lost in 1st round of playoffs while the Celtics went on to win the championship? Yeah, they should definitely hit 81, so that when we can see their drive to win it all in the next year.

[cambridgeguy]

On 5/8/2022 at 11:41 PM, whiporee said:

I know he was critical of the show, but I don't know how Kareem can possibly be upset by his portrayal. Dude was close to sainthood. He should have made the trip, though. 

Maybe all of the unhappy folks only saw the first couple of episodes.  That's when Kareem told a kid to fuck off, West went on multiple rampages, etc. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I wonder if they only got like the first two in advance like critics do. 

They're all certainly entitled to their opinion probably moreso because it's their lives, but the Kareem centered episode was really good insight into Kareem himself. To be fair, Kareem irl was notably salty to the media to be generous, and imo the show went out of its way to show why Kareem might be a touch angry. I wonder if he saw the scene with show-Kareem and Earvin Sr. It was excellent. 

They've showed Kareem if nothing to be really thoughtful. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Did nothing happen in the first four games of the Finals that they skipped right to the fifth game? It was 2-2! There had to have been some drama to tie up the series. I didn't realize that Kareem didn't even travel for Game 6. 

Figment Larry Bird has a point that everyone does want to see Magic and Bird in the Finals, but beating that 76s team is no joke either. Beating them in Philadelphia wasn't nothing either. I mean, Doctor J, of course, but you got someone called Pops and Chocolate Thunder. That's no one to mess with.

I liked real Bird being riveted to the game too, and then getting out there to practice. 

The scene in the car with Kareem and Magic was well done whether it happened or not. 

I liked how Kareem, Magic, and McKinney all came to the solution for Kareem being out was to put Magic at center. 

I know real West is not happy with the portrayal, but West agonizing was entertaining. 

I also liked that we finally saw some basketball. As much as I like the show, I would have liked to see more balling. I'm always impressed how the scoring then is about the same now, but they weren't shooting threes. And I like the game now too. 

They certainly made the game dramatic! The callback to the McKinney miles was well done. The sound cutting out when Riley gave rookie vote was great timing. 

I'll tell you what though - you get smelling salts - you ain't just all groggy shaking your head. You're up like a shot.

A quick google shows that CBS actually convinced the writers to switch the MVP to Magic, but there's nothing that turned up Magic knew that. 

On 5/9/2022 at 6:32 AM, UrbanShocker said:

Was Jeanie really naive enough to think her dad was going make her treasurer?  Well at least her dad didn't make one of her drunk brothers the treasurer and went with Claire instead (good call).

I said the same. Sure, she's more qualified than the brothers, but none of them are qualified to be treasurer and vice president. Jeanie did have good ideas, and someday she'll make a good exec. Claire is, earned, and deserved it. I liked that Claire wasn't all emotional about it either; she looked that the paperwork and asked for a raise. 

On 5/9/2022 at 6:32 AM, UrbanShocker said:

I'm surprised they didn't show (or maybe they did and I missed it) that Dr. Buss eventually paid off his loan by making Great Western Bank the sponsor of the Forum.

I just finished, and right before the last line, Buss is talking to the camera about 'still having some money in the bank and a new line of credit'. That could have been it.

23 hours ago, nilyank said:

Considering that Lakers lost in 1st round of playoffs while the Celtics went on to win the championship? Yeah, they should definitely hit 81, so that when we can see their drive to win it all in the next year.

Really the Lakers aren't "The Lakers" until the face offs with the Celtics, so if I'm running the show, I'd combine 81-83 in the next season and keep 84 and on for a third season. The Lakers lose to the 76ers in 83 after beating them again in 82.. I don't think you want to push the rivalry to four years from now. Keeping one NBA season per tv season isn't going to work because the 80s is an entire decade. 

It's weird because 84 is really the Celtics story and Bird finally gets a win against Magic. It takes them half a decade for the Celtics to finally overcome the 76ers to face them, and the Lakers had been in the Finals by then all but one year. 

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[cambridgeguy]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Did nothing happen in the first four games of the Finals that they skipped right to the fifth game? It was 2-2! There had to have been some drama to tie up the series. I didn't realize that Kareem didn't even travel for Game 6. 

IRL Heywood was cut before Game 3, but showing that wouldn't have allowed enough time for his murder plot.

I'm assuming Bird doesn't give a damn, but he's not coming off well either.  His show alter ego is a sour redneck who hangs out with racists.

[DoctorAtomic]

We know they become friends so the show is probably playing it up now for the dramatic payoff later on. 

It is true they used to follow one another though. 

The show probably needs a few Bird episodes to develop him as a person. He was aloof, if anything. That's hard to put on TV. 

[Lady Whistleup]

Finally saw the season finale. Loved it. This series is IMO very strong. I hope the second season will be as good.

A few things I love about the series finale:

- Kareem watching that famous Game 6 on TV, and realizing that it's Magic's team now

- the actor they got to play Bill Russell really captured Bill's mannerisms including the high-pitched cackle

- that moment between Spencer and Kareem. Too bad they were not friends in real life, because their relationship on the show is awesome

- Jerry West's panic attacks. Apparently, that part IS true. His wife said that during playoff time, he could go months without speaking to her

- Larry Bird winning ROTY and Magic using that as inspiration for putting the Sixers away

- Pat Riley acquiring more of that slicked back, Armani suit voice

 

[TV Diva Queen]

On 5/10/2022 at 4:55 AM, cambridgeguy said:

Maybe all of the unhappy folks only saw the first couple of episodes.  That's when Kareem told a kid to fuck off, West went on multiple rampages, etc. 

LOL, yes.  That's why that scene in Airplane was so funny....he wasn't always a nice man.  

[Lady Whistleup]

I honestly think all the main characters of Winning Time came off real well. Maybe not Bird. But everyone else was a round character, which means that we like them and care about them despite their faults.

Like Jerry West is mad about his portrayal, but everyone I talk to loves Winning Time's "Jerry West." You need that sort of fanatic workaholic on your side.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know if Magic likes seeing "Magic" casually sleeping around, but the team interactions are well done. Just about everyone one on one scene with Kareem in it is outstanding. 

Has Jeannie irl said anything?

Edited May 16, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[Lady Whistleup]

Magic playing around was common knowledge and something he admitted to. I don't see where the controversy is. 

Jeannie Buss says this:

 

[DoctorAtomic]

No, I know Magic sleeping around was known. I was saying he probably isn't to jazzed on seeing that on tv. That probably colors his opinion. 

[Marley]

I think Magic is still bragging about his sexual conquests to this day so I don’t think he cares. If he does care probably cause he isn’t controlling the narrative on the show.

Overall I liked the show. Kind of slow at times and some things could be better but I still enjoyed it.

[DoctorAtomic]

Is he still married? 

[Lady Whistleup]

41 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Is he still married? 

Yes he is.

[Marley]

Yea Cookie is never leaving. She’s been with the manwhore this long.

[IntrovertRed]

On 5/15/2022 at 10:37 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

Like Jerry West is mad about his portrayal, but everyone I talk to loves Winning Time's "Jerry West." You need that sort of fanatic workaholic on your side.

I certainly loved his portrayal, I even rewatched a couple of his scenes because they were so funny!

On 5/16/2022 at 9:21 PM, Marley said:

I think Magic is still bragging about his sexual conquests to this day

That's disappointing.

[Popples]

Winning Time gets one Emmy nomination for "Outstanding Cinematography For A Single-Camera Series (One Hour)".

[grawlix]

Here are some of  Kareem's thoughts on the Showtime Lakers Era

KAJ Substack

[DoctorAtomic]

It sounds like the show was fairly in line with this documentary to me. 

[Popples]

It's back on August 6.

 

[realityplease]

Second season on HBO tonight - April 6, 2023.  (And if you miss the first showing at 6 Pacific, 8 Central or 9 Eastern, looks as if HBO is going to run the episode again, back to back, 3 or 4 times in a row after that.

Edited August 6, 2023 by realityplease
missing word

[DoctorAtomic]

S2E1
I was going to call bs on the time jump at the beginning. The Lakers had two more appearances in the finals, duking it out with the 76ers before meeting Boston for the first time. Boston still had to get through the 76ers, and they lost it in 1981. It was clever though. The Boston fans were exactly like that back in the day. The Lakers lost in 84. Magic totally blows it. Knowing all that, it seems the season will show them being their own worst enemies. 

I hope there's just one season of 84-85. 

Great use of 'Magic'. Did they have paternity tests back then? Magic said he 'was careful'. I was thinking that the woman just was blaming Magic to get some cash. 

I forgot how much I like Hughes playing Kareem. And West. Brilliant. I get they're playing up the Magic/Kareem, but they were both essential to the team.

 

[Mr. R0b0t]

S2E2 - I'm wondering why this show isn't stoking more conversation because I'm loving it as much as ever.  There's not really a weak spot acting-wise and I've given in to the dramatic license being taken with the material and just letting what is being presented on screen wash over me.  JCR really brings a pathos to his portrayal of the sad playboy clown millionaire who just wants a bit o' honey.

[DoctorAtomic]

I didn't post last night because no one else had posted yet.

They blew through 1981. I suppose with the early exit, and Magic out for half the season, there wasn't a reason to linger. I would have liked to see more tension developed between Riles and Paul and what the 'new system' was. Regardless of the system, the ball has to go through Kareem, and I wanted to see how he was adjusting to changing from before Magic, 1980 Magic, No Magic, and 1981 Magic.

Also, Paul is historically out in the middle of the next season. I would have liked a more simmering tension than a total blow up, but that could have been what happened. 

If you're interested in the real game 3 against Houston. Check out the first 60 seconds or so. irl Magic went to his left instead of his right on the show, but still threw up the air ball. irl the play didn't look forced. Kareem was in the same position, but didn't look as open.

The other thing that the show held back on was that Magic already had the 25 year contract June 1981, but I can see that's too much for one episode, and regardless, having the contract still leads to Paul's ouster. 

I suppose the point on show there was that Paul lacked confidence in Magic to build up the tension and that Riles believed in Magic. Kareem had 32 in that game, so it's fair that you'd want to get him the ball, but he didn't look as open to me.

I do think nixing the trade was the right thing to do, even if Magic was 100%. They didn't need the game that Skywalker would bring to the team. Norm does end up getting traded for Byron Scott, who was the spot up shooter they needed.  

Edited August 14, 2023 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

Kids talking trash to Magic about Bird was hilarious, even if it's 

I'm not so sure it's too good to focus too much on Bird. Except for the commercial, at this point in 1981, their paths didn't really cross. Bird is almost a phantom in Magic's life. Clearly, you can't tell the story of the one without the other, but that's not really the show though. Bird dropping out of IU and then going to Indiana State is important to his own development and growth, but I don't know if it's germane to the rise of the Lakers. 

The actor playing Bird is great though. He almost has his shot down. It looks like the actor is actually hitting most of the shots; they aren't cutting too much. 

Honey is *gorgeous*. And please tell me anyone else watching the show knows who Cameo is.

Jason Clarke is the mvp of the show for me. The stream of consciousness ranting is just brilliant. Better than mine, but he's got writers. 

I never knew the Lakers before Pat Riley. I'm wondering if Westhead really tore it up so bad. 

When you think about it, $25 million for Magic's career is an absolute steal. What's Hardin getting now? Anyone think he's worth a fraction of Magic?

 

[Mr. R0b0t]

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

And please tell me anyone else watching the show knows who Cameo is.

Word up!

[DoctorAtomic]

I also like how there's talking on the phone. No one who wasn't around back then for real phone calls truly know the pleasure of slamming the phone down defiantly and hanging up on someone. 

[edhopper]

About that $25 million. That was a lot then, but now it's a mid level player for a year.  It's funny that it was Magic, the Lakers, the rivalry with Boston leading into the Jordan era, that made the NBA popular enough to garner the TV money that enables them to pay players so well.

But Magic did OK, think he is worth about half a billion now.

[DoctorAtomic]

That money went a little further back then than it would now too. We know he's worth a lot now. He likely invested well at some point, plus endorsements on top of that kept growing. He both the chain of movie theaters too at some point. 

It's amazing one of the best players of all time got locked in for so little comparatively.

Edited August 23, 2023 by DoctorAtomic

[MerBearStare]

So this is nerdy but I really like looking up inflation rates and what X dollars in Y year would be today. That $25,000,000 would be $84,073,432 today. A really good upfront payment, but I think the Lakers ultimately made out better than Magic with this deal. 

[DoctorAtomic]

It's not $25 million all up front though. Isn't $1M per year? I'm saying that it's probably more than the $84 million. 

The average NBA salary in 1981 was $189K. I'm sure the big guns got more. Dr. J's first salary was $500K for four years in the ABA. Bird was making $650K in 1981, when they won the title. Also, it was a quick line, but Bird seemed awfully shrewd in insisting Red include several bonuses in his contract.

I don't think Magic had any bonuses in this first contract. Bird only made $24M in salary over his career, and he played just about the same amount as Magic. I don't think he was ever locked up long term like Magic was because I remember the "Larry Bird" exemption was invented to keep your superstar without counting against the salary cap.

Juwan Howard signed a $100M contract in 1996. 

 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I can't believe they were going to cut Rambis! 

I think it was smart to separate the $25M contract from the playoff meltdown even though both happened at the same time irl. I'm wondering how much Red and Buss interacted irl as well prior to 1984. I'm sure they talked at owners' meetings. 

Magic was correct though; Buss offered him the money. Is he not going to take it? Even Cooper said he would have. 

I don't get The System. McKinney basically invented Showtime with the transition and movement. It worked. Why slow it down and stifle? I know it's to prove a point, but it's at the expense of wins. He's doing himself in. You have to play with the players you have. That talent doesn't need to be told what spot to go to. Even the Triangle allows for fluidity. 

I get the point of the pressure on Magic, but I can't imagine the rest of the team likes the style of play either. 

They're doing a really good job with Riley and Magic too. 

[edhopper]

I wonder if Paul Westhead was this much of an a$$hole. I doubt it, as he went on to coach other teams.

But we know there was conflict with Johnson. 

[baldryanr]

7 hours ago, edhopper said:

I wonder if Paul Westhead was this much of an a$$hole. I doubt it, as he went on to coach other teams.

But we know there was conflict with Johnson. 

Well, being an asshole isn't a deterrent to being hired, especially if you have a championship on your resume.  Pat Riley didn't leave on good terms either.

I can only imagine how all of this would have played out in the modern era of social media.  The narrative of Magic being a spoiled brat who got his coach fired would have been overwhelming.

[DoctorAtomic]

13 hours ago, edhopper said:

I wonder if Paul Westhead was this much of an a$$hole. I doubt it, as he went on to coach other teams.

Not that many, and not the success he had with Lakers. Just looking up his record, it was only 2 more teams, and they were well under .500. He was an assistant after that. He strikes me as someone just trotted out because he's been in the NBA so long. 

"Paul Westhead compiled a record of 183 wins and 224 losses in his coaching career with the Chicago Bulls, Denver Nuggets and Los Angeles Lakers."

Clearly, he was really doing this System nonsense irl. I bet him saying "you can plug anyone in" was a real quote. I think West's implication "you call this a win?" was probably reflective of what was going on, but I do wonder if Westhead was really "If I'm going down, I'm going down my way." Well, you're paid to win. You have the likes of Kareem and Magic. Coop was nothing to slouch at either. You don't need to 'plug anyone in'.

I also think that Magic saying "I don't need to be told to run to a spot" might have been close to reality too. 

I wonder if Westhead maybe was that much of a control freak and Magic's contract just grated on him. Or that he wanted to get out of McKinney's shadow so he came up with his System. Which doesn't work; McKinney faked him out and Westhead gave the wrong direction to Magic in the 124-123 game. 

6 hours ago, baldryanr said:

The narrative of Magic being a spoiled brat who got his coach fired would have been overwhelming.

We'll see what happens next week, but they are showing the drama being played out in the newspaper and local news. It may not have gone past Southern CA back in the early 80s, as it would be nationwide today. Although some of the bigger papers may have covered the Lakers. 

What's interesting to me is that it does seem like Westhead is riding Magic harder than the others. Kareem is telling him to put his ego aside, but he's also talking about leaving LA, and he's not happy he's getting 30 and 15 and losing. He knows they're not playing to their potential. 

The narrative of him getting the coach fired is what would play today as well, but Magic isn't wrong. West and Bill independently of Magic, prior to the meltdown at the end, are yelling at Buss about the same issues. He's only demanding a trade; he's not saying fire Westhead. 

I may be reading into this too much because I really enjoy the show, but Westhead is getting a little too "Know your place, boy" to Magic for my comfort. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

Was anyone actually around for the Lakers/Celtics in the 80s? I'm wondering if this is resonating with anyone else like it is for me. 

 

[edhopper]

12 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Was anyone actually around for the Lakers/Celtics in the 80s? I'm wondering if this is resonating with anyone else like it is for me. 

 

Definitely yes!

[Mean Machine]

I was almost twelve when these events were happening in a diehard 76ers household(in Florida).  I remember most of this Magic/Westhead stuff, reading about it in Sports Ilustrated and Sporting News.  Even the local sports page would occasionally have excerpts from the L.A. Times.

Only three episodes left this season, i guess we're not gonna get much mention of the Sixers' clean sweep of the Lakers in '83.