Little House Series and Pioneer Girl Readalong

[Pickles Aplenty]

Did Ma ever say "The only good Indian is a dead Indian", or was that their neighbor, Mrs. Scott?  I can't remember.

[Athena]

Did Ma ever say "The only good Indian is a dead Indian", or was that their neighbor, Mrs. Scott?  I can't remember.

 

It was Mrs. Scott. I reread it to make sure it was the latter because as annoying as Caroline's prejudice is, that statement is too racist to ignore. 

[juneday]

She seemed to fear the Indians a lot, as well as dislike them-but fear them more.

What's funny to me is that in the beginning of LHOTP Pa says, "Seeing as you don't object, I've decided to go see the West." And Ma says, "Oh Charles, must we go now?" Isn't that objecting?

[kikismom]

Here is one of several sites that mention how Caroline's family was fed by Indians after her father died!  http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/Caroline-Ma-Ingalls-111684.html

[BatmanBeatles]

Something big must have went down for her to hate Indians.

[ElderPrice]

I am suspicious of Pa and the watermelon. As they were recovering from malaria Pa left without saying where he was going. Later on he returns with a watermelon balanced on his horse's saddle. Ha said that a neighbor was growing watermelons in the creek bottoms. He does not say "I gave him a quarter for a watermelon" or "He offered a watermelon to us." Pa does not recount how, in fact, he came into possession of the watermelon at all. It's just there. Could Pa have filched another man's crops? Hmmmmmmm.

Edited August 27, 2014 by ElderPrice

[smittykins]

Not out of the realm of possibility; I'd say.

[Snow Apple]

That thought popped into my head right after my own post about the watermelons! Glad someone else had the same thought. The were grown by the settlers who got sick after eating them (or so they thought) so it wasn't like they were growing wild on some abandoned field.

[stopeslite]

I had never thought about that with the watermelon- Now I'm starting to view LHOTP like when people recut comedy movies to look like horror trailers - I didn't notice the evil lurking beneath the surface!

 

I can't locate my copy of LHOTP and have been trying to remember parts that stood out, and then realizing everything I remember is from other books. I think it's my least favorite of the series. It's the most bleak (maybe second to the Long Winter), because it's all about leaving the good life and then just having hardship after hardship (and, as we know, it never really gets better). 

[BatmanBeatles]

I've always wondered why the Indians would want to wear skunk skins. I know they use every part of the animal, but still...

[kikismom]

Which makes me wonder...

In the Big Woods, Pa let their hog run free in the woods, and sometimes the cow. I'm not sure if he set traps then, but he wouldn't have set them on his own land where his hog could get it's leg broken. So where did he set them? Most of the land was owned then, even the tree lots.

Now  in LHOTP, Kansas wasn't land owned by white men, and it does say that Pa set his traps in the creek bottoms. He shot wolves and foxes and deer, and his traps caught beaver and muskrat and mink. The Indians must not have liked that too much; not only having so much game killed but finding steel-jaw spring traps in a place they used for their travels and their horses. Of course Charles thought anything that wasn't red-hot and nailed down was his, but things might have gone better if he hadn't just barged into someone else's source of food and materials and wiped out as much as a tribe probably did all winter. No wonder the Indians came in and took a little compensation...they did leave the furs though. And then of course people called them thieves.

[camom]

Would all of the Ingalls have died if Dr. Tan hadn't happened to come along when they had malaria?  That story brings up many questions.  As has been mentioned, where was Carrie?  LIW mentions Jack being in the house, but he was outside to lure the doctor to the house.  If they were all so sick that Laura had to drag herself across the floor just to get Mary a drink of water, who let Jack in and out?  And who took care of the animals in the barn?  The cow needed to be milked, they needed to be fed, etc.  I know Laura was just a small child at the time and her memory would have been sketchy, but so much just doesn't make sense.

 

And yeah, Pa totally stole the watermelon.

[BatmanBeatles]

The Scotts might have helped out?

[Winipo75]

 

I can't figure out why Carrie has her own cup but Laura and Mary have to share.  Why don't Laura and Mary have their own cups, and Carrie can drink from Ma's?  She's a baby!

 Now that I know Carrie was born in Kansas, I suspect that having her own tin cup was completely made up. She didn't have her own cup because she wasn't even born yet! Why Laura would specify that Carrie had her own cup while she had to share with Mary, I'm not sure. My roommate had another take on the situation. She asked me: "Who would you rather share a cup with? The sister near your own age, or a slobbery baby?" She has a point.

 

 

I guess I always wanted to hope that Mr. Edwards was going into town, so Pa asked him to pick up the tin cups and a stick of candy for the girls (and he'd pay him back).

 

I think this is an option. I came up with another theory the other day. Perhaps Pa got the gifts when he went to Independence (since he knew he wouldn't be going back before Christmas) and decided to hide the gifts at Mr. Edwards house so the girls wouldn't find them in the little house. Since Mr. Edwards was supposed to come for Christmas dinner, they could pop the gifts in the stockings and all would be well. Of course, then the creek went crazy. At any rate, I think Mr. Edwards is to be admired regardless of whether he delivered gifts that were being stored at his house, picked up the gifts in town and delivered them, or took the initiative to get gifts for two poor little girls because their own parents didn't have the foresight to plan for Christmas! I also thought it was sweet that Ma was determined to give them something for Christmas, even if it was a just a couple of little cakes. White sugar was seen as precious, and usually reserved for company, so the fact that she used it for the cakes shows that she was determined to make that Christmas special.

[henrysmom]

I also thought it was sweet that Ma was determined to give them something for Christmas, even if it was a just a couple of little cakes.

 

 

Rereading the books as an adult, I do have more admiration for Ma.  When I was young, I just thought she way too uptight and strict.  But now I can see her good points.  She really was doing her best to raise her daughters as well as she could, under truly adverse situations.  Pa got to be the "fun" one, while she had to do most of the actual parenting.

[Pickles Aplenty]

I feel so dumb right now.  Ever since I was a kid, I thought Ma was planning to just put a scoop of white sugar in the stockings.  It didn't occur to me AT ALL that she was going to make cakes. :P

[kikismom]

I feel so dumb right now.  Ever since I was a kid, I thought Ma was planning to just put a scoop of white sugar in the stockings.  It didn't occur to me AT ALL that she was going to make cakes. :P

A sock full of loose sugar. Just like a big honkin PixyStik.

[juneday]

I wonder how the girls would have reacted to waking up Christmas morning, going to their stockings, and finding just the cakes with white sugar. Happy, probably, because white sugar is a rarity, but probably a *little* let down, don't you think?

[kikismom]

I wonder how the girls would have reacted to waking up Christmas morning, going to their stockings, and finding just the cakes with white sugar. Happy, probably, because white sugar is a rarity, but probably a *little* let down, don't you think?

They'd be happy...till Ma said they had to share fairly with Carrie; so each girl would give half to Carrie, she'd have a whole cake, and they would grow up bitter and twisted...oh, wait...

[juneday]

Haha. :)

Why was it that Ma was constantly making them share with Carrie? I understand the concept of sharing of course, and think it is a good thing, but I think some of the things Ma made them share with Carrie or even give to her should have been the girls' to keep. (Ex: those beads they got at the Indian camp.) They had so few things of their own and there are other ways to teach selflessness besides giving up your stuff to your sibling.

[kikismom]

I know this isn't in LHOTP, but we will come to the part in TLW where they've been waiting forever for the Youth's Companion, and just as Laura and Carrie feel the happiness Ma suggests they put them away to save for a Christmas present for themselves (well, that's convenient!) and MushmouthMary has to jump in immediately-ooh I think that's a wonderful idea "it will teach us self-denial!"

Judas Priest!--- you're starving and poor and hopeless!...you need to learn self-denial? Really? Like your parents indulge the kids too much?

That's when I would have said screw it and slapped her.

[ElderPrice]

When Pa said to Mr. Edwards "You shouldn't have taken such a risk" (swimming the creek) Edwards says "The girls had to have a Christmas". So either Edwards was holding the kid's candy and cups or knew that Ma and Pa had nothing for the kids. Pa made his big trip to Independence not long before Christmas (it was freezing cold and he came home during a nor'easter so we know it was late fall at least). Wouldn't Pa have gotten Christmas presents for the girls then? And why would he have given Edwards candy and tin cups to hide? They were small things that Ma could have hidden under the bed or something. I believe that Edwards knew that the kids were screwed unless he stepped up, and that he was disgusted that two kids had to drink out of the same cup.

 

But I love his Santa story. The packmule was a brilliant touch!

Edited August 28, 2014 by ElderPrice

[kikismom]

We're still coming up on the year Santa gave "the girls" plowhorses.

I wish Ma would have said to Pa "I was thinking; maybe instead of horses, and whiskey, and tobacco, and whiskey, and whiskey, if we wished really hard for Santa to bring one thing...like food for the children? Underwear? Would you believe another cup?"

[Pickles Aplenty]

 

I wonder how the girls would have reacted to waking up Christmas morning, going to their stockings, and finding just the cakes with white sugar. Happy, probably, because white sugar is a rarity, but probably a *little* let down, don't you think?

It would have sounded like this:

 

Laura and Mary woke up and rubbed their eyes.  It was finally Christmas morning!  Ma started to brew coffee for Pa as Laura leaped out of bed, running to her stocking.

"Don't run, Laura!" said Ma.  Laura slowed down as Mary stepped out of bed like a lady and joined her at the hanging stockings.  Pa took down Mary's, and then Laura's.

"It looks like Santa Claus remembered two good little girls," said Pa, grinning.  "there is a lump in these stockings!"

Laura and Mary took their stockings.  Inside, there were two little white cakes, perfect and sweet. 

"Oh, Pa!' said Laura.  "Santa Claus gave us cakes!  Oh, they are so white and pretty!"

Mary smiled and took a dainty nibble out of her cake.  Laura took a bigger bite out of hers.  Ma frowned.

"You know, girls," said Ma.  "Carrie only has one cake in her stocking.  It would be very nice of both of you to give her one of your cakes.  That way, Carrie will have three cakes."

"Yes, Ma."  Mary dropped one of her cakes in Carrie's stocking and smiled sweetly.  Laura's face grew hot.  She did not want to give Carrie one of her cakes.  Carrie didn't even have teeth yet!

Ma looked at Laura and gave an encouraging nod.  Finally, Laura dropped one of her cakes in Carrie's stocking.

"Those are my good girls," said Ma.

"Well, I'm off to hunt," said Pa.  "Maybe I'll shoot us a prairie dog , and we can have a real, Christmas dinner.  We'll live like kings!"

Pa finished his coffee, took his gun, and left.  Ma wished Laura and Mary a happy Christmas and told them to make the beds.

[juneday]

LOL, that sounds a lot like how it would go!

I thought the pack-mule was a funny touch to the story, as well. One thing though-how would Mr. Edwards have known the girls were getting nothing for Christmas or that Pa and Ma hadn't planned ahead? It is reasonable to think that he would know that Laura and Mary drank out of the same cup, because he'd been around the Ingalls enough, but unless Pa told him about the Christmas thing, (which he could have done), how would he know?

Sometimes I get the LHOP TV show pilot confused with the actual Little House on the Prairie book. They were actually very similar.

[Libby96]

And after the pilot, Michael Landon threw in the towel and the two were rarely similar again!

I love this book thread! It's perfect for a nerd like me, who has read the whole series a few times for myself and then had the fun of reading it separately to each of my daughters since they are almost eight years apart in age.

And as much as I loved them, I agree that the chapters in LHOTP about building doors and such were like watching paint dry. Mercy!

[Pickles Aplenty]

 

And as much as I loved them, I agree that the chapters in LHOTP about building doors and such were like watching paint dry. Mercy!

Oh, no doubt.  This is why I prefer the later books to the earlier ones.  Teenage Laura, working and being courted by Almanzo, will always be more interesting than little Laura, who...helps Pa make doors.  Riveting.

 

My husband, though, prefers the how-to excerpts from these books.  He's never read the series, but I have read parts of it aloud to him, and he finds the way people used to do things fascinating.  He couldn't give two shits about the later stuff that I prefer, LOL.

[Snow Apple]

Growing up, I only got sweets and soda on special occasions like holidays and weddings; makes it all the tastier. I bet the girls would be thrilled to get only a cake made special with white sugar. In another book, they were so happy to get only candy and thought they were too pretty to eat. I can't help comparing that to the Wilder's with their gold lockets and garnet earrings!

 

I do wonder about Carrie's special treatment though. On one Christmas, Ma had the girls make her a button string. The buttons sound so pretty and the girls loved them. Couldn't Ma make and surprise all three with their own button string? But then, Ma made Grace a special outfit with the swan feathers. Maybe they tend to spoil the youngest during Christmas. Laura got the rag doll when she was the youngest of the siblings and cousins (except for the babies). The book even made a point of saying the other girls were not jealous of the doll because of the fact that Laura was the littlest.

[jammaker]

 

Maybe they tend to spoil the youngest during Christmas. Laura got the rag doll when she was the youngest of the siblings and cousins (except for the babies). The book even made a point of saying the other girls were not jealous of the doll because of the fact that Laura was the littlest.

 

I wonder if part of this is because the littlest gets all the hand me downs.  Jumping ahead to the next book, there's a lot of "and then Ma remade this dress to be that and this one to be that" and Mary gets the new boots because Mary is the oldest and her boots can be passed down.   So Christmas is an excuse to give the littlest something new/nice/their own.   I have three boys, and we definitely do put some extra effort into making sure the youngest gets things that are new and only for him, to sort of make up for the fact that 98% of what he wears and plays with is previously owned.  (But we don't make the bigger two give him half of everything they own, or share a cup.)

[stopeslite]

I somehow missed until just now that Carrie was actually short for Caroline (thanks, Wikipedia!), so maybe Ma was a little biased towards Carrie? 

 

I wondered if the death of Freddie contributed to the way Ma spoiled the babies, but he wasn't born until Carrie was 5, so that wouldn't have been a factor for her. He died almost exactly nine months before Grace was born, though, so I could see how she might be a cherished and coddled baby/child.

[smittykins]

Going back to the "Santa on a packmule" story, was I the only one who wondered, "Where were the reindeer when Santa was riding the packmule?"  And remember the scene where they go the the stable and find out that Pet has given birth to a colt?  It took me *way* longer than it should have to realize that she was most likely pregnant when they acquired her and Patty.

[ElderPrice]

My neighbor keeps his cows in our pasture and that's exactly how it happens. One day you see the cow, the next day you see the cow again and there's a calf following her! Of course the owner knows she's been bred but it happens like that every time. Instant baby.

 

LOVED the fanfic Christmas story! I believe that that is exactly what would happen, except that Mary would not take even a dainty nibble out of her cake. The very idea! Nibbling a cake that was given as a gift!

[juneday]

^^^ Yes, I wondered if the girls wondered about where the reindeer had gone, haha! They were probably too caught up in Mr. Edwards story for that to click with them. He sounds like a dynamic storyteller.

And my family has cows, and yes, that's about how it happens unless one of the cows has a problem giving birth and has to be helped by a vet. Otherwise, one day she's pregnant and the next a little calf is walking around out there with her!

Edited August 29, 2014 by heckyeahheartland

[mansonlamps]

Growing up, I only got sweets and soda on special occasions like holidays and weddings; makes it all the tastier. I bet the girls would be thrilled to get only a cake made special with white sugar. In another book, they were so happy to get only candy and thought they were too pretty to eat. I can't help comparing that to the Wilder's with their gold lockets and garnet earrings!

 

I totally agree with this and think many of us are bringing a way too modern perspective to Christmas on the Prairie. I can't even imagine the Laura of that era would have been judgemental about whatever her parents put in her stocking. My own mother who was born to immigrant parents way later than this era was happy to get a repurposed doll in the 1930's.

[nodorothyparker]

My husband, though, prefers the how-to excerpts from these books.  He's never read the series, but I have read parts of it aloud to him, and he finds the way people used to do things fascinating.

 

This is my husband too.  He generally doesn't care about books like this at all but I once read him the part about making the stick and daub chimney that of course later caught fire because, you know, wood.    He thought it was the absolute goofiest thing he'd ever heard.

[juneday]

I thought many of the chapters on how they made things were boring, but others I enjoyed. I enjoyed one part of LHITBW where she is talking about the smokehouse and then it is explained how the meat is salted and smoked, etc, and the fruits and vegetables that were in their attic. Also I liked the part where they roasted the pig and played with the bladder (gross but sounds like fun!)

Oh, I also always wanted to make snow maple-syrup candy. Unfortunately, as I grew up in the South and I think it snowed once or twice while I was young, I never got to do that. :P

[BatmanBeatles]

 

I totally agree with this and think many of us are bringing a way too modern perspective to Christmas on the Prairie.

Yeah, it's not as if there's a Toy's R Us on the prairie.

[kikismom]

 

. He died almost exactly nine months before Grace was born, though, so I could see how she might be a cherished and coddled baby/child.

Which is why they named her Grace.

 

I have ancestors named Providence, and Liberty (Born in the 1600s).

 

 

 I once read him the part about making the stick and daub chimney that of course later caught fire because, you know, wood.    He thought it was the absolute goofiest thing he'd ever heard.

Sometimes I think Pa was the Survivor Rupert of the American West. Remember when Rupert built an underground shelter, of logs, on the beach at low tide where it floods all the time? Which is what happened? Both read a lot of cowboy stories and thought they were off-the-grid DIY experts but they were just wannabe dreamers.

 

 

 My own mother who was born to immigrant parents way later than this era was happy to get a repurposed doll in the 1930's.

My grandma grew up on a farm in the 1920's and she told me she got a new doll and a new set of building blocks every Christmas. She said she was 7 years old before she figured out it was the same old toys every year and her father was just painting them different colors.

[Mystery]

 

 

I once read him the part about making the stick and daub chimney that of course later caught fire because, you know, wood.    He thought it was the absolute goofiest thing he'd ever heard.

Sometimes I think Pa was the Survivor Rupert of the American West. Remember when Rupert built an underground shelter, of logs, on the beach at low tide where it floods all the time? Which is what happened? Both read a lot of cowboy stories and thought they were off-the-grid DIY experts but they were just wannabe dreamers.

Funny, that chimney makes me think of a different reality show, Trading Spaces, both the "Crying Pam" fireplace episode (where if Pam is to be believed, Doug not only enclosed the fireplace controls but left bare wires and sawdust to smolder inside the fireplace cover) and Hildi covering a wall with hay. A twofer! 

Edited August 29, 2014 by Mystery

[Runningwild]

I am so glad I found this thread. You guys are cracking me up!

[Winipo75]

Ah, yes, I think Pa and Rupert were separated at birth. I'm far from an outdoors-y type, but many things he chose to do on Survivor and many decisions Pa made in the books, I think "What? That can't be a good idea."

 

Some of the descriptions of how they did things appealed more to me than others. Things involving food and animals certainly rank much higher than building a door. Making the maple syrup candy is a big one. I also enjoy some of the descriptions of planting and harvesting crops at that time. My father lived on a farm as a kid, and it's fun to ask him how they milked cows/harvested wheat and compare that to the LH methods.

 

Considering that they were expecting nothing, I think Mary and Laura would have been thrilled with just the cakes. It's sad that they expected so little, something so small would have exceeded their expectations. Of course, thanks to Mr. Edwards, they got a windfall! A cup AND a cake AND candy AND a penny! I believe there is a line where the narrator comments that it was almost too much! Seriously, this turned out to be a great Christmas for them! (Too bad they couldn't have kept their own personal Santa Claus, Mr. Edwards, with them after they left Kansas).

 

Billina, that scene you wrote is one of the funniest things I've read in awhile. I also agree that's EXACTLY how it would have played out! I can just see Carrie gumming her cake, while Laura silently seethes. I also can't stop picturing them "oohing and aahing" over loose white sugar in their stockings! Laura would have been licking it up, but I'm sure Mary would have to put her precious sugar under glass or something so that she could continue to appreciate it forever. 

[juneday]

Has anyone ever tried any of the more unusual or hard-to-find-these-days food in the books? I don't know if there were *that* many of those types of food-I remember hard tack, the pig's tail, the snow candy...

Laura and Pa were always my favorite characters, now knowing what I learned from this thread, I think my favorite is just Laura now. Pa is an interesting character, to say the least, though.

[Stargazer3]

I read the Christmas scene over again very closely...and I don't think Ma made the cakes. When Laura woke up she saw the stockings hanging limp and was disappointed. Then a minute or so later Mr. Edwards shows up with the gifts. The cakes are wrapped in paper. Later Laura mentions what they eat and there is salt rising bread that had been made from "the last of the white flour." Ma would probably have baked bread the day before. I always thought she might have made candy out of the sugar.

As for Mr. Edwards, I always thought he brought the gifts himself. Perhaps he noticed that Pa was a bit lacking in the planning department, or maybe he was just a lonely guy who liked being with the family since he had no one of his own. I always thought he bought the gifts on his own and the sweet potatoes too to kind of repay them for being kind to him and sharing their family life with him.

[Winipo75]

Hm, that's a very good point. I overlooked the part about the cakes being wrapped in paper. I'd still like to believe that Ma made them, just as I'd like to believe that Ma and Pa had the foresight to plan for Christmas! However, re-reading the scenes and taking part in this discussion, I have my doubts. Oh, the disillusionment! 

 

It makes one wonder if Ma was just going to sprinkle white sugar in their stockings. "Merry Christmas, girls! White sugar!" Double, triple thank God for Mr. Edwards!

[juneday]

It would probably go somehow like this: Mary would promptly save her white sugar to bake something nice for Carrie, and when Laura started eating hers, Ma would say, "Now Laura, don't you think you should save half of your sugar to bake something nice for Carrie?" And Laura would be fuming under the surface, wanting her sugar for herself, but say, "Yes, Ma."

[PrincessLuceval]

I always wished the girls knew their fractions better, and each nibbled 2/3 of their cookies from Mrs. Nelson. Then they could each put their leftovers together for Carrie. Yeah, I thought about that stuff.

[Libby96]

So did I, Princess Luceval. Even Mary must not have been paying enough attention during the fractions unit at the little schoolhouse on the prairie.

[sgittinger]

"Why did we come to Indian Country, if you don't like Indians"? Well played, Laura. Well played.

[Stargazer3]

If you've seen the photograph taken of Laura, Mary and Carrie...the one with Laura on the right, Mary in the middle and Carrie on the left, it is thought that the bead necklace Carrie is wearing is the one mentioned in LHOTP. But I wonder how that could be since Carrie was supposedly born the day Pa took the girls to the Indian camp in real life. Did Mary still give her beads to Carrie, and did Laura have to follow along? Sort of a baby gift?

[smittykins]

On The Banks Of Plum Creek time!  One thing that has always kind of bothered me(and I realize I'm probably being irrational)is when Laura asks Pa why they had to trade Pet and Patty, he gives her this story about how they're Western ponies who want to travel, and you wouldn't want to keep breaking their hearts on a plow.  I give him credit for admitting that plowing was too physically demanding for them, but I would have rather he simply said, "Well, Half-Pint, we had to trade them so we could acquire this farm."  And I wonder if the fact that Mr. Hansen's wheat was so thin and light should have been a clue-by-four for Pa.