S19.E28: Tristan Harris; Jennifer Rubin; Richard Ojeda

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

Tristan Harris, co-founder of The Center for Humane Technology, is Bill's interviewee at the top of the show and joining him on the panel are MSNBC contributor Jennifer Rubin and national spokesperson for No Dem Left Behind, Richard Ojeda.

Original air date 2021.09.24

[LADreamr]

That was some impressive missing-and-twisting-the-point contortionism, to get it back to what he thinks and to still not have to listen to anyone else.  

Why not ask someone who wants a different anthem played, where they're coming from on that, instead of declaring yourself the knower of all, even though you are on the short end of nothing.

Even for him, this was some (can't think of an adequate metaphor)-level tone-deafness.  Still processing the condescending white-mansplaining New Rules.  

I still watch the show for the interesting guests, but some shows are harder than others, to get past him, to enjoy them.

[heatherchandler]

10 minutes ago, LADreamr said:

 

Why not ask someone who wants a different anthem played, where they're coming from on that, instead of declaring yourself the knower of all, even though you are on the short end of nothing.

 

He did get a different person’s thoughts, he quoted the guy who wrote a book on it.  Why not respect his perspective?  He also said we don’t have to keep the anthem we have, but we should have just one.

[BrownBear2012]

40 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

He did get a different person’s thoughts, he quoted the guy who wrote a book on it.  Why not respect his perspective?  He also said we don’t have to keep the anthem we have, but we should have just one.

You mean he was talking about this again this week? Oy...sounds like this is going to replace his obsessive rant on cancel culture. Did anyone point out to him that this song will only be played at about three games this season? What's the BFD??? 

[iMonrey]

This wasn't too bad, all things being relative. Bill only touched on wokeness briefly, and then brought up that thing about rich people paying all the taxes again, which - weird. Maybe people keep accusing him of not paying taxes because he's so rich? I don't know why he keeps raising this point. 

But the final New Rule, oy. Why is he stuck on this all of a sudden? I swear, his obsession with minutia like national anthems has to be at least partly related to his pot-addled brain getting stuck on some trivial thing.

I did appreciate the panel discussion about prosecuting the January 6th rioters and going after people who incited it.

Richard Ojeda - wow, that's some unfortunate hair he's got going on. Maybe just shave off that last bit of it.

[millennium]

On 9/25/2021 at 1:01 PM, iMonrey said:

 

But the final New Rule, oy. Why is he stuck on this all of a sudden? I swear, his obsession with minutia like national anthems has to be at least partly related to his pot-addled brain getting stuck on some trivial thing.

Obviously I can't get inside his head but based on the numerous other examples he cited regarding separatist policies being considered/implemented by various institutions, it may be that he sees the anthem issue as the most glaring symptom of a larger trend.

Edited September 27, 2021 by millennium
word missing

[ICantDoThatDave]

Agreed. Bill made the point that it's getting difficult to tell the difference between "something a woke person would advocate for" & "something a racist would advocate for".

[DoctorAtomic]

I suppose I take the larger point there, but I think Bill could have argued it better. I only new of the singing of Lift Every Voice because of this show, and like it was pointed out, it's not at every game. 

Again, I take the point, but I think hanging on the anthem is misguided because I think we shouldn't be playing at all the things every single time anyway, so I'm going to look at it more like, sure, let's play a different song now and then. The anthem itself has largely lost any meaning due to the ubiquity. 

I think centering the argument around the different graduations makes a stronger point. 

[millennium]

Maybe just me, but for a long time the anthem portion of sporting events has seemed like an American Idol audition.

[After7Only]

Bill is totally missing the point on the National Anthem….  America the Beautiful or God Bless America is sang before the Star Spangled Banner at a lot of sporting events including the Super Bowl.   And no one thinks anything of it.   Why would Lift Every Voice and Sing be any different?   While it is referred to as the Black National Anthem, Black people don’t sing it in lieu of the National Anthem.   It’s just another song of National pride just like God Bless America.  

He’s taking “Black National Anthem” too literally.   Much like his some of his other examples on separate-ness.   The so called separate graduations are from my experience additional celebrations.   Minority students still participate in the same ceremony as everyone else.   They may chose to attend the additional event, just like white students could chose to attend.   The university does not force anyone.   Which is an important distinction that he leaves out the discussion.   
 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by After7Only

[Pike Ludwell]

[Deleted because people are misunderstanding the issue here too much.]

Edited September 27, 2021 by Pike Ludwell

[After7Only]

2 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

To those arguing why not have the black national anthem too and what's wrong with having a couple different songs - Bill blows that argument out of the water. Why not have a Chinese, Asian, Indian, LGBTQ, etc.? The nation should come together instead of a combination of separat(ist) groups. That's his fundamental point and he is correct that there is a movement toward separatism going on. This is not a small thing -- it's a major social change and needs to be adressed.

Actually I'm surprised Bill doesn't argue for not having any sort of pre-game anthem. It's sports, for entertainment, not for solemn expressions of allegiance which can easily be politicized. Anthems, pledges, etc. have nothing to do with the sport. Seems like Bill argued this in the past, but has dropped it.

If those groups have songs that have been an important part of their American experience in their culture then I have no problem with it.    Context is important.   People get stuck on the word Black, and choose not to think deeper.   It’s not just a song important to Black, lgtbq, Chinese, etc.   it is a song important to the American experience and has been for over 100 years.    That’s my problem with Bill’s rant, he is choosing to ignore context (or have a guest there that can explain context).   

Awareness and inclusion of other cultural practices does not mean the country is more separate at all.   It actually does the opposite.   Those practices have going on forever.  They are not new at all.   And it doesnt make Black people any more separate than they were before.   For this Black person (I only speak for me) hearing Lift Every Voice and Sing at the Super Bowl makes me feel more included in the American experience.  
 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

In light of that, with an organization of an overwhelming majority of employees are people of color (NFL, NBA), making literal billions for the largely white management, singing the song once and a while should be seen an effort to be more inclusive. No one is saying don't sing the national anthem anyway except me. 'Lacking context' seems an apt criticism here. 

tbh, they can sing a whole bunch of songs for whatever is going on that particular month/week, if we must have a song before the game. 

They don't play anything in pro soccer matches in Europe. They just line up and start the game. International competitions, sure. Play them both, and everyone be respectful.

[ICantDoThatDave]

I feel like in focusing on the multiple anthem thing, which was just Bill's prelude to get to his larger point, people are falling into the right-wing trap of distraction by focusing on minutia.  I mean he made that point about the anthem, briefly, in New Rules, but then focused more on the Separate But Equal push - segregated dorms, segregated graduations (no matter that everyone is technically invited), segregated housing, etc.

I feel like people are missing Bill's point by focusing on the multiple anthems - he even said it was stupid that we sing any anthem at sporting events & also that the current anthem could go away in any context.  I feel like his main point point was pointing out the push for Separate But Equal in many aspects of life.  Which, is... well, horrible, no matter who is doing it.

Edited September 28, 2021 by ICantDoThatDave

[DoctorAtomic]

No, you're right, and I said as much earlier too. I think use of the anthem just isn't the good lead in to the larger point he was making. 

[After7Only]

12 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

I feel like in focusing on the multiple anthem thing, which was just Bill's prelude to get to his larger point, people are falling into the right-wing trap of distraction by focusing on minutia.  I mean he made that point about the anthem, briefly, in New Rules, but then focused more on the Separate But Equal push - segregated dorms, segregated graduations (no matter that everyone is technically invited), segregated housing, etc.  

He led with the anthem both times he's brought up this topic..... so there's that.   But my posts also speak to the his larger point.  That's it's not really an issue.  He's falling into that trap on focusing on headlines without context.   There is a huge difference between schools legally stating that black people can not go to school at this school, live in this neighborhood, or work at this company, and minorities choosing to live in a neighborhood (or dorm) or choosing to have additional celebrations to a larger celebration, etc.   It is not the same thing at all, and to equate the 2, lessons the horrendous impact and injustice of codified segregation (which the skeptic in me is I'm wondering is the real point of these arguments).   

If we think of Black as a culture and not just a race  it might better help them understand that issue better.   The same schools that have a "Black graduation" in addition to the traditional graduation likely have a similar events for various international students, Christian students, etc.    The same schools that have dorms space targeted towards Black students, also have dorm space for various international groups or Spanish speakers,  or Christian students, or some other type of group.   But those aren't mentioned in the rant.   Just Black.

And another important point is the examples he's provided have been isolated.  He makes it sounds like it's everywhere when that jus isn't true.  

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by After7Only

[heatherchandler]

35 minutes ago, After7Only said:

 

If we think of Black as a culture and not just a race  it might better help them understand that issue better.   The same schools that have a "Black graduation" in addition to the traditional graduation likely have a similar events for various international students, Christian students, etc.    The same schools that have dorms space targeted towards Black students, also have dorm space for various international groups or Spanish speakers,  or Christian students, or some other type of group.   But those aren't mentioned in the rant.   Just Black.

 

I think Bill is just trying to say that if people really only feel comfortable with "their own culture," then the melting pot USA is one big failed experiment.

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by heatherchandler

[tessaray]

54 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

I think Bill is just trying to say that if people really only feel comfortable with "their own culture," then the melting pot USA is one big failed experiment.

 

I agree. But what he doesn't get is the tone-deafness of the old guard setting the rules of the experiment and their deciding what success and failure look like.

Some of the most exciting discoveries and innovations have come from experiments run amok. The trick is the ability to set aside preconceptions and just see where things go.  

[After7Only]

11 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

I think Bill is just trying to say that if people really only feel comfortable with "their own culture," then the melting pot USA is one big failed experiment.

 

A person can be comfortable in their culture AND the larger culture, AND other cultures.  One does not preclude the other.   People join in St. Patrick's Day celebrations with the Irish, Columbus Day celebrations with the Italians, or Cinco de Mayo with Mexicans.   America has a history of retaining cultures within the larger culture.   

Bill is seeing division in an area where there really isn't any.   The people singing the anthem, participating in these programs, living arrangements, etc. aren't complaining or finding it a problem.  And to be honest all of these activities have been happening informally all along without causing division.   They still sang the star spangled banner, went to university graduation with the rest of their peers, interacted and formed friendships with people of a variety of cultures, etc.        

[millennium]

Do away with sporting events.  Problem solved.

[Broderbits]

12 hours ago, millennium said:

Do away with sporting events.  Problem solved.

Do away with people. Even more problems solved.

[millennium]

55 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

Do away with people. Even more problems solved.

Pomeranians are far more likeable than people.

Edited September 30, 2021 by millennium