S03.E08: Episode 8

[mledawn]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I think there might be issues with casting actual teens for a show with this muche xplicit sexual content.

Oh for sure - which leads me to another element I find wholly unbelievable. This is the third season of this show and the entire school is having this much sex all the time, since they were ~14? Again, I am far removed from high school but this seems excessive. 

I enjoy the show for the most part. I just watch it and try not to think too hard about it.

[Danny Franks]

On 10/19/2021 at 3:16 AM, mledawn said:

Oh for sure - which leads me to another element I find wholly unbelievable. This is the third season of this show and the entire school is having this much sex all the time, since they were ~14? Again, I am far removed from high school but this seems excessive. 

I enjoy the show for the most part. I just watch it and try not to think too hard about it.

I don't think that's too different than a lot of other teen shows - Riverdale, Friday Night Lights, Pretty Little Liars, Euphoria etc - aren't they all shows with twentysomethings playing teens who are very sexually active and don't seem to age?

Tim Riggins, for example, was supposed to be sixteen in the first season of Friday Night Lights (sort of, I think they de-aged him by a couple of years so they could keep him on the show) yet was a functioning alcoholic with a sexual conquest list that apparently had most of the teenage girls in the town on it.

[Roseanna]

On 9/18/2021 at 11:14 PM, Danny Franks said:

Maeve finding out Isaac betrayed her trust and ruined her chances with Otis, but she forgives him a couple of days later and happily embarks on a relationship.

I agree. How could she ever trust him?

Well, she explained later, and evidently believed, that he "wanted protect her" from getting hurt by Otis - he had no right to it and she was quite capable to protect herself. The real reason was obvious: he was jealous!

[Danny Franks]

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I agree. How could she ever trust him?

Well, she explained later, and evidently believed, that he "wanted protect her" from getting hurt by Otis - he had no right to it and she was quite capable to protect herself. The real reason was obvious: he was jealous!

The thing is, as someone pointed out on Reddit, Maeve learns in episode five that Isaac still hadn't been completely honest with her. He said that Otis' message was "about him still having feelings for you" but he did not say that Otis declared his love for Maeve.

So even with that evidence of Isaac's dishonesty, and the hurt that it had wrought on both Maeve and Otis, she still picks him in episode six. People can dress it up as her hiding from her true feelings or whatever, but it hurt the Otis/Maeve pairing a lot. On the back of two seasons of them mostly being bitter and wrapped up in pain and anger whenever they spoke to each other, it wasn't a smart choice.

But I maintain that they completely rewrote Isaac's personality and had Maeve take leave of her senses all because they wanted to pat themselves on the back over having a disability-positive sex scene.

[Roseanna]

On 9/19/2021 at 8:08 PM, Danny Franks said:

The fact that they had her backtrack on what had happened with Otis and say "let's see where we are when I get back" suggests that the writers have left the door open to give her an American fling. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did, and said fling followed her back to the UK on some kind of study abroad programme of their own.

I will never, ever have any sympathy for writers who don't want to put their main couple together because they're scared people will lose interest. Just keep telling interesting stories, keep developing the characters but do it within the relationship. It's not that hard.

It's also a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the more energy the writers devote into inventing obstacles to keep the pair apart, the more story ideas they burn through and the more they get themselves into the mindset that they can only put the characters together as a last resort. It's no surprise that Otis and Maeve felt so dull this season, because the writers stripped everything light and fun from their relationship just to keep the 'will they, won't they' dynamic intact.

And if you've sold the idea of your show with a big 'will they, won't they' pairing as the hook, trying to then claim that the show isn't all about that pairing and there are other storylines to focus on is disingenuous at best. Sadly, it happens far too often in television writing. 

 

If the writers want to keep the pair apart, they should give them not not only outer but internal obstacles.  

The worst obstacles are sheer misunderstandings (if used, should be short-lived) and the third, hostile party's involvement which the pair isn't conscious (Isaac removing Otis's voicemail).

[Roseanna]

On 9/19/2021 at 4:01 AM, Zonk said:

I'm so over Eric. So his boyfriend isn't quite there with the being out and proud yet and Eric "needs to fly". Great. What does he do? Does he tell Adam that it's important to him, that he needs to be able to express himself freely and that Adam needs to make an effort? Nope, first thing that comes into his mind: breakup. Makes me think he never loved Adam at all.

Especially since the "freedom" he felt was in an underground gay club in a country where being gay is illegal. Adam didn't like the idea of getting dressed up, putting on makeup and going to a gay club, but why should he have to for Eric to be able to "fly"? Why can't Adam just go as himself? The guy Eric kissed in Lagos wasn't in makeup. Eric never even brought up that option. No, straight to breakup!

I hope Adam finds a nice guy (not that snooty french poop flinger, they are clearly setting up as a love interest [No! Bad writers! Stop it!]), Eric realises that he made a huge mistake and that one night of adrenalin fuled excess isn't the norm when you are going dancing, then comes crawling back only for Adam to rebuff him.

 

On 9/22/2021 at 4:25 PM, Aulty said:

Asa said in an interview that he and Mimi get along quite well irl, it showed on the show and I understand why people ship them now. However, what seems to have stuck with many is the break-up and the scenes with Ruby's dad. Apart from those scenes, we haven't seen anything that would suggest their relationship was that great. In public, she was quite snoty and didn't treat him that well, while at home he was her dress-up and sex doll. She decided to break-up.

 

On 9/25/2021 at 11:07 PM, ahisma said:

I might be in the minority in not hating Eric. He’s a teenager and still figuring out who he is. And he forgot for a bit that he is a flamboyant, makeup-wearing, dance-party extrovert, until someone reminded him. Adam’s also figuring out who he is, but he’s a hang-at-home kind of guy. He made HUGE strides being able to come out in public and have sex, but in the end he isn’t a good match for Eric.

 

On 10/6/2021 at 4:17 PM, love2lovebadtv said:

You can sit with me at the not-hating-Eric table. I personally just really adore his character, even though I didn't always agree with him. I thought he and Adam were horribly matched and it had nothing to do with makeup or wanting to go to dance parties. Neither of them is ready to have a boyfriend. Adam needs to figure out what he's doing and is just learning to express himself openly. It wasn't that long ago that he had issues during intercourse with his girlfriend, exposed himself in the cafeteria, and bullied Eric. The boy needs time to figure stuff out. I appreciate that Otis was uneasy about them getting together in the first place. Eric has a great friend in Otis but could still stand to hang out with more people benefit from meeting people who enjoy the same things he does. I don't think his romantic partner needs to be someone who's flamboyant and/or likes to wear makeup.

 

On 10/18/2021 at 9:03 PM, marshmallows said:

And my oh my how the tables have turned from s1 to the end of s3 for me on Eric and Adam. Eric was by far my favorite character and I felt very protective of him and now that has switched to Adam. Eric's breakup with Adam seemed so OOC for Eric to be so dismissive and cruel. Adam has recently come out of the closet and does not have the accepting home life that Eric has. Adam also has deep seated issues with his father which has caused Adam to have self esteem and self identity issues as well as abusive tendencies toward others. But he has really been working on all of that through s2 and s3. And by no means am I saying Eric has to stay with Adam because of any of this, but he could have had a little more grace and tact when breaking up with him. Eric was quite cruel and seemed so nonchalant about the breakup because he wants to "fly." Whatever Eric- you had an exhilarating night of risky fun in a gay night club in Nigeria, that is not everyday life. They are also 17 so I'm not sure what nightclub Eric thought he and Adam were going to go to. (And I'm from the US, so night clubs for teenagers are slim and typically require parental drop off at minimum, it may be different in the UK). This breakup just seemed premature and I wasn't really shown on screen how Adam is holding Eric back. Adam just wasn't ready to tell his family, but he was completely out at school and in public with Eric. With everything Adam has went through with his parents I can see why he would have reservations about telling them. Idk I'm just really disappointed in this because I loved the Adam/Eric ship and I have really grown to like the Adam character. He and Aimee are actually two of the best written characters.

Eric has been a great friend to Otis - he has often often a voice of reason because of his greater experiences about sex. And I like him because he is mostly glad, friendly and helpful, enjoys life and isn't afraid to be openly himself.

But maybe all his good qualities have hidden that he is still a teenager who isn't ready for a serious relationship.

Also, what does it tell that he let Adam long bully himself? What did it mean that earlier Adam did sex to Eric and now Adam wanted Eric to do it to him?

I think it's really fine that how the writers have developed Adam and his father's characters and let them grow.  

[Roseanna]

On 9/21/2021 at 3:38 AM, juno said:

 

1. Ruby who actually had great chemistry with Otis broke up with him because he didn't feel exactly the same for her as she did for him AT EXACTLY THE SAME TIME.

She is a teenager who said ILY the first time in her life. She has used to be a queen of her set and therefore she assumed  that if she loves a boy, of course he must love her.

But was it love or her imagination of love? She hasn't treated Otis well, first keeping their relationship secret and then ordering how he must dress up.

She had talked about Otis to her dad ("Otis this and Otis that") which can be interpreted that she had feelings for him, but she had never *shown* those feelings to him before she blurted ILY.

On 9/22/2021 at 12:34 AM, Danny Franks said:

I suppose something like, 'I'm not there yet, but I really like you and want to be with you,' is as good as anything I can think of. Which seemed to be what Otis was stumbling towards but Ruby didn't want to hear it, although she wasn't helped by the very lukewarm way in which he was saying it.

I guess it's something people find easier to just lie about, because it's always struck me as rather unlikely that both people in a relationship fall in love and are ready to declare it at the exact same moment. It always seems to be presented on television and in movies as this black and white thing - either you're in love or you're not, and if you're not then what's the point?

Ruby's declaration of love became to Otis as a total surprise, so he can't really blamed for not finding the right words.

I hate stories where one answers automatically "I love you too" - and then is stuck in the lie.

On 9/22/2021 at 4:25 PM, Aulty said:

Asa said in an interview that he and Mimi get along quite well irl, it showed on the show and I understand why people ship them now. However, what seems to have stuck with many is the break-up and the scenes with Ruby's dad. Apart from those scenes, we haven't seen anything that would suggest their relationship was that great. In public, she was quite snoty and didn't treat him that well, while at home he was her dress-up and sex doll. She decided to break-up.
 

I agree. They have had sex but kept it secret. They didn't really have a relationship.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The thing is, as someone pointed out on Reddit, Maeve learns in episode five that Isaac still hadn't been completely honest with her. He said that Otis' message was "about him still having feelings for you" but he did not say that Otis declared his love for Maeve.

So even with that evidence of Isaac's dishonesty, and the hurt that it had wrought on both Maeve and Otis, she still picks him in episode six. People can dress it up as her hiding from her true feelings or whatever, but it hurt the Otis/Maeve pairing a lot. On the back of two seasons of them mostly being bitter and wrapped up in pain and anger whenever they spoke to each other, it wasn't a smart choice.

But I maintain that they completely rewrote Isaac's personality and had Maeve take leave of her senses all because they wanted to pat themselves on the back over having a disability-positive sex scene.

Couldn't they have write it so that they first had sex and *then* Isaac have made his confession believing that after sex Maeve would forgive him?

 Actually, why on earth did Isaac confess? It would have rather suited to his character that he would have kept his deed secret, anticipating that Maeve would not forgive him.

 As the writers put Maeve and Otis four hours alone in the place they couldn't leave, the writers would as well written a discussion where the secret would have come in to the light anyway. F.ex. Maeve would have accused Otis for the way he had treated her and he would have blurted out "I was hurt and angry that you didn't answer to my voicemail" and she would have asked "what voicemail?"

[marshmallows]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Couldn't they have write it so that they first had sex and *then* Isaac have made his confession believing that after sex Maeve would forgive him?

 Actually, why on earth did Isaac confess? It would have rather suited to his character that he would have kept his deed secret, anticipating that Maeve would not forgive him.

 As the writers put Maeve and Otis four hours alone in the place they couldn't leave, the writers would as well written a discussion where the secret would have come in to the light anyway. F.ex. Maeve would have accused Otis for the way he had treated her and he would have blurted out "I was hurt and angry that you didn't answer to my voicemail" and she would have asked "what voicemail?"

That would have been a much better and logical storyline.

[Danny Franks]

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Couldn't they have write it so that they first had sex and *then* Isaac have made his confession believing that after sex Maeve would forgive him?

 Actually, why on earth did Isaac confess? It would have rather suited to his character that he would have kept his deed secret, anticipating that Maeve would not forgive him.

I think the actor who plays Isaac, George Robinson, put them in a bit of a bind. Whenever interviewers asked him about sex as a disabled person, he stressed the need for complete trust and openness between partners and talked about the emotional act being more important than the physical act.

So how could the writers honour something that's important to him, while having Isaac still be a lying manipulator who was actively deceiving Maeve? The answer they seemed to come up with was, "ah, fuck it. He confesses and she forgives him so they can have sex. And we can all pat ourselves on the back for being so ground-breaking."

It's a central crux of bullshit that undermines the whole season, and that seriously undermines Otis and Maeve as a couple. This after a season and a half of them barely being able to speak to each other without spitting venom. Why TV writers persist with toxifying their central pairings, I will never understand.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I think the actor who plays Isaac, George Robinson, put them in a bit of a bind. Whenever interviewers asked him about sex as a disabled person, he stressed the need for complete trust and openness between partners and talked about the emotional act being more important than the physical act.

So how could the writers honour something that's important to him, while having Isaac still be a lying manipulator who was actively deceiving Maeve? The answer they seemed to come up with was, "ah, fuck it. He confesses and she forgives him so they can have sex. And we can all pat ourselves on the back for being so ground-breaking."

It's a central crux of bullshit that undermines the whole season, and that seriously undermines Otis and Maeve as a couple. This after a season and a half of them barely being able to speak to each other without spitting venom. Why TV writers persist with toxifying their central pairings, I will never understand.

It's interesting that Maeve says to Otis that just his saying sorry in his voicemail wasn't enough to make their relationship okay. To which Otis says that's how apologizing works - and thereby shows how inexperienced he still is.

If one has hurt the other in a really big way, like breaking the trust, one has to be willing to listen to the other tell about his/her hurt feelings and show empathy. And one has to take responsibility for one's deed and show that one has changed. Only then the relationship can really heal.

However, even if one forgives, it may be that one doesn't want to continue the relationship.

   

[Roseanna]

Continueing:

It seems that, in their urge to treat the disabled Isaac just as other persons, including the right to have sex, the writers have done just the opposite: Isaac is treated as someone from whom one can't judge according to the same standards as other persons, even demand a basic decency towards others. In short, Isaac is looked down with pity which I doubt that disabled persons irl would have liked.

Plus, whereas the writers are good at describing sex in many forms, they are less good to describe the relationships. Just as there are problems, the other party just ends the relationship. 

 

 

[possibilities]

IRL, I think often people (esp teens) do just end the relationship. I have been shocked by how many people do not really seem to have a clue about dealing with problems, and either just decide to live with a situation that they don't like, or break up without trying to address it.

The show has gone out of its way to show the characters trying to solve sex problems and be creative and accepting of a variety of sexual desires. But it has not shown the same degree of commitment or creativity or even interest in addressing other kinds of problems in relationships. 

[Roseanna]

On 10/18/2021 at 9:03 PM, marshmallows said:

I could care less about Otis and Maeve. I wasn't even into them in the first season when they may have actually had potential and some mild chemistry. They should have put them together early in s2 and then have them break up over something dramatic if you still want the audience to be invested or break them up over them realizing it was just something they built up in their heads and then let them properly move on with more interesting love interests. But dragging it out this long makes it to where they really can't put Maeve or Otis with someone else without the impending doom of them ending because the writers seem so dead set on Maeve/Otis being endgame but not until the very end of the entire series.

I liked them in the first season but looking now back, I saw that Maeve was so much more experienced, not only in sex but life, that it was like Otis had a crush on an older girl. And she liked him because he was the only boy who seemed to be interested in her as a person and  she was tired of having sex that was (if I remember right) a kind of meaningless.

If they had a chance as a couple, it would be when they are adults and in the same level.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Roseanna
removing a word

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

IRL, I think often people (esp teens) do just end the relationship. I have been shocked by how many people do not really seem to have a clue about dealing with problems, and either just decide to live with a situation that they don't like, or break up without trying to address it.

The show has gone out of its way to show the characters trying to solve sex problems and be creative and accepting of a variety of sexual desires. But it has not shown the same degree of commitment or creativity or even interest in addressing other kinds of problems in relationships. 

Yes, teens, and many adults too, aren't very good in relationship. And of course the show can describe it. Only, must all relationship be such? Especially because persons who are such good, supporting friends show quite different qualities in relationship? Is it sex that causes them think that their partner exists only to give them what they want.

[Roseanna]

I must add still one thing which I found interesting, and a bit amusing, in Maeve and Otis's relationship in the first season: in changed upside down the formula that was formerly common in the love stories: a superior man who is experienced in sex and life, falls in love with an "innocent" girl, unconscious of her beauty and charm, behaving like a tomboy and/or not wanting to marry at all, and taught her to "become a woman" whereas he abandoned his former ways and became faithful to her.

Because the story always in the proposal or at least in their wedding night, the reader never learned if such a marriage could succeed.

[Roseanna]

On 9/18/2021 at 8:41 AM, pootlus said:

The platonic relationships in this show are much better done, such as Aimee/Maeve, Adam/Emily (Ms Sands), and especially Otis/Eric.

I agree. But if the writers can create good friendships for characters, why can't they create a love relationship where the partners are also friends, i.e. both want and do good to the other?

Also, while it's well to think what one wants, sometimes it's not the same what one really needs. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Roseanna
adding a letter

[Aulty]

20 hours ago, possibilities said:

The show has gone out of its way to show the characters trying to solve sex problems and be creative and accepting of a variety of sexual desires. But it has not shown the same degree of commitment or creativity or even interest in addressing other kinds of problems in relationships. 

To some degree, and at times rather reluctantly, Aimee and Steve are the only exception. And even though we only got a glimpse of their breakup, it was heartbreaking.

On 10/22/2021 at 2:09 PM, Roseanna said:

Isaac is treated as someone from whom one can't judge according to the same standards as other persons, even demand a basic decency towards others. In short, Isaac is looked down with pity which I doubt that disabled persons irl would have liked.

I read an article/interview that was raving about the sex scene and the Isaac character, explicitly stating that for once the disabled person finds love and is not cast as a villain ... Excuse me, did they watch series 2???
Do you lot think we will see Isaac again in season 4, especially now Maeve has left the trailer park? Me neither.

[Roseanna]

On 9/18/2021 at 11:14 PM, Danny Franks said:

Isaac suddenly being the noble, 'if I'm not your first choice, I don't want this' hero, after his entire mindset being established as 'take what you can, because no one is going to give you anything.'

Was he really being noble? After all, "If I am not your first choice, I don't want this" was only about himself - in short, just as he had behaved all the time, whatever he may have believed about "protecting Maeve".

Let's compare Isaac with Jackson who I believe really cared for Maeve but broke the relationship after realizing that she was in love with Otis.

 

[Roseanna]

On 10/23/2021 at 6:34 PM, Aulty said:

I read an article/interview that was raving about the sex scene and the Isaac character, explicitly stating that for once the disabled person finds love and is not cast as a villain ... Excuse me, did they watch series 2???

Maeve evidently liked Isaac and had sex with him, but love? It was rather that he was available.

People call many things love. To Isaac it evidently meant making decisions for Maeve because he believed that he knew better than she what was best for her.

The actor said in an interview that Isaac didn't know Otis as he only met him when he treated Maeve badly. That's true, but in similar situation when Otis didn't trust Adm, he spoke to Eric, he didn't try secretly to separate them. Otis had no secret agenda, Isaac wanted Maeve for himself.

It seems that Isaac is defended by arguments like "has he done any worse than other characters"? I think he has, because he did it in secret. Other characters have done mostly their bad deeds (bullying, being mean) openly, so their victims had, at least theoretically, a chance to defend themselves. As Eric finally did in the second season.

 

[Aulty]

On 10/23/2021 at 11:58 AM, Roseanna said:

I must add still one thing which I found interesting, and a bit amusing, in Maeve and Otis's relationship in the first season: in changed upside down the formula that was formerly common in the love stories: a superior man who is experienced in sex and life, falls in love with an "innocent" girl, unconscious of her beauty and charm, behaving like a tomboy and/or not wanting to marry at all, and taught her to "become a woman" whereas he abandoned his former ways and became faithful to her.

Maybe compared to 90/00s romcoms. While it may not be the norm, its not that uncommon on TV anymore - Big Bang Theory's Leonhard and Penny are a pretty prominent example and that was 10 years ago.
By the time Otis and Maeve actually did have their long awaited kiss, they were pretty much on even footing. You can even argue that, emotionally, Otis has matured a lot more than Maeve over the past 2 seasons.

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, Aulty said:

Maybe compared to 90/00s romcoms. While it may not be the norm, its not that uncommon on TV anymore - Big Bang Theory's Leonhard and Penny are a pretty prominent example and that was 10 years ago.
By the time Otis and Maeve actually did have their long awaited kiss, they were pretty much on even footing. You can even argue that, emotionally, Otis has matured a lot more than Maeve over the past 2 seasons.

I meant even older romance novels.

Otis showed some maturing in the end on S3 although he still believed that just apologizing makes things OK. What does it tell of him that he treated Maeve horribly and on the whole ceased to care also for others, because she didn't respond to his love? Although his dad is away and his mom hasn't exactly given her a good example about the relationships, Otis has lived a secure, "normal" life.  

Instead, Maeve has already met great challenges: poverty, her mom's alcoholism, false rumors and discrimination by Ruby's set that made her an outsider, pregnancy and abortion. Yet she hasn't treated others badly (informing on her mom was right as her little sister must be a priority) but on the contrary took her brother's sins to her and helped Ruby when she was in trouble. When she feels low, she withdraws from others. Evidently she believes that she doesn't "deserve" good things.

I see Maeve's relationship with Isaac in that light. The main point isn't his disability at all but his negativity and his lack of plans for the future. It's noteworthy that she thought that his portrait of her didn't look like her. The relationship with him would have meant that she wouldn't have developed her talents in full.    

[Aulty]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Otis showed some maturing in the end on S3 although he still believed that just apologizing makes things OK.

In your book, what would Otis have to do to make things OK if a heartfelt apology and remorse aren't enough? (leaving asside what a lame trope that deleted voicemail was)

[Eeksquire]

Quote

When she feels low, she withdraws from others.

To me, that's exactly what Otis was trying to do - He felt bad about what happened with Maeve, so he did the Otis version of withdrawing from others and shut himself down from getting involved with other people. Despite their differences, they have the same fundamental reaction: pull back and stop engaging with people.

[Roseanna]

23 hours ago, Aulty said:

In your book, what would Otis have to do to make things OK if a heartfelt apology and remorse aren't enough? (leaving asside what a lame trope that deleted voicemail was)

Otis should listen to Maeve and show her empathy, which means giving words to her feelings, f.ex. "were you disappointed/hurt/angry because you wanted love/friendship/respect/connection/etc."

But of course characters can't behave "wisely" because then there would be no plot. 

13 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

To me, that's exactly what Otis was trying to do - He felt bad about what happened with Maeve, so he did the Otis version of withdrawing from others and shut himself down from getting involved with other people. Despite their differences, they have the same fundamental reaction: pull back and stop engaging with people.

You are right that also Otis withdraws from other people, but at first he attacks against Maeve.

Both are common methods and it depends on characters an situation which one a person chooses. It's easy for the outsider to condemn attack because one sees straightaway how it hurts the victim. Withdrawing is more difficult to notice but in the long it can hurt as much, certainly oneself but often others too.

Attack and withdrawing can be connected: the more one party attacks, the more other party withdraws. While Otis's mom doesn't exactly attack, she is too prying and "understanding", that is, she uses her professional language also in private which has taught Otis to keep his own counsel at home (luckily he has in Eric a good and more experienced friend to whom he can tell his worries and ask for advice). 

 

[Roseanna]

Continueing: in the story, the best way was to atone one's deed is action that shows that a person has really changed or that he/she has been judged wrongly.

Jane Austen knew this: in Pride and Prejudice Darcy not only behaves in the different way in Pemberley, but he helps Elizabeth's sister Lydia which means that he had to deal with Wickham who he hates. In Persuasion, it's Anne's determined, swift and resourceful action in Lyme that shows to Captain Wentworth that he has been wrong judging her character.

In this show, Adam's change was shown in many ways: when teased, he admitted that he was gay, he learned that he could speak about his feelings and wishes when he turned his back and dared to it, and after Eric broke their relationship, he went to the agility competition which showed that he had mental strength to cope. None of this seemed affected.     

[Roseanna]

On 10/27/2021 at 4:47 PM, Aulty said:

In your book, what would Otis have to do to make things OK if a heartfelt apology and remorse aren't enough? (leaving asside what a lame trope that deleted voicemail was)

After watching again S1, I must modify my answer. There were three cases where "a heartfelt apology and remorse" was enough, because they were was "normal" cases, f.ex. things most people speak when they are agitated but don't necessarily mean (or mean only partly). Or the other person doesn't understand the meaning of the words. Or we do something we think is nice to the other but learn later that he/she doesn't like it all.

But there are more serious cases where a person hurts the other on purpose. Then the crux of the matter isn't if one can forgive, but can one trust again.        

 

 

[Roseanna]

After watching Otis's party again, I must admit that Isaac's actor was right in one thing: Isaac didn't know Otis, nor his and Maeve's relationship, as he first met Otis in the party where Otis treated Maeve badly and publicly humiliated her, calling her the most selfish person who only plays with others' feelings. So no doubt Isaac got a very bad impression of Otis.

None of this justifies his deleting Otis's voicemail. He robbed of Maeve the right to make decisions for herself.

Isaac is clever: he understood straightaway Otis's motive - jealousy towards him. Afterwards he tried to convince Maeve that because she and he had experienced traumatic childhood, they were "special" and could understand each other, but Otis could never understand Maeve. That could be true or false, but on the basis of what we saw Isaac wasn't good for Maeve: he would have clipped her wings. And after Isaac removed Otis's voicemail, he could never be sure that Maeve would have chosen him for himself. 

Regarding Otis's drunken speech: it really revealed his immaturity - all was others' fault, he had done right. Yet, Maeve may have acted wrongly to confess her love to Otis when he dated Ola, but she acted honestly and bravely. Ola may have acted wrongly to demand that Otis didn't see Maeve even as a friend, but it was Otis who broke the relationship with Maeve and confessed his love to Ola while she realized he didn't (after dreaming of Lily) and bravely and honestly broke the relationship with Otis.

So, Otis had a possibility with Maeve but he himself made a mess of it, because he lacked courage and honesty to himself and others but was ruled by his inferiority complex because of his inexperience and his self-image of a righteous person who always contains himself, unlike his father. Until that night when he let loose of all.            

[Roseanna]

On 9/19/2021 at 3:19 AM, possibilities said:

I was actually sad that Aimee concluded she didn't want to be with Steve. Was it not about the assault at all, and she just didn't like Steve? He seemed like a great guy. I get that sometimes you're just not into someone and there's no particular reason, and also that kids that age are more likely to have churn in their relationships than be looking to settle down. But I liked Steve.

I think that Aimee who (as she told Jean) had always lied to please others just needed to have a time alone, in order to ponder who she wanted to be.

[Roseanna]

Watching this season anew, I just noticed that Isaac did reveal his true motive to remove Otis's voicemail: he was afraid to lose Maeve who had had had same experienced as he, so they could understand each other. That reason makes me understand him better. On the other hand, it  wasn't love but obsession - he thought about himself, not Maeve.

Maybe it was the thought of the similar fate what made Maeve forgive Isaac so easily - although their characters aren't similar at all.

[Roseanna]

On 9/19/2021 at 4:01 AM, Zonk said:

I'm so over Eric. So his boyfriend isn't quite there with the being out and proud yet and Eric "needs to fly". Great. What does he do? Does he tell Adam that it's important to him, that he needs to be able to express himself freely and that Adam needs to make an effort? Nope, first thing that comes into his mind: breakup. Makes me think he never loved Adam at all.

Especially since the "freedom" he felt was in an underground gay club in a country where being gay is illegal. Adam didn't like the idea of getting dressed up, putting on makeup and going to a gay club, but why should he have to for Eric to be able to "fly"? Why can't Adam just go as himself? The guy Eric kissed in Lagos wasn't in makeup. Eric never even brought up that option. No, straight to breakup!

I hope Adam finds a nice guy (not that snooty french poop flinger, they are clearly setting up as a love interest [No! Bad writers! Stop it!]), Eric realises that he made a huge mistake and that one night of adrenalin fuled excess isn't the norm when you are going dancing, then comes crawling back only for Adam to rebuff him.

After watching again, I must admit that your opinion makes lot of sense.

Last season Eric's mom said that Adam makes her son "shine" after Adam had made only one brave act, before he had dared to meet Eric only in secret and before that he had been a bully. This season when Adam actually has tried hard ti change and developed a lot but after both had said ILY, Eric drops him because he had one fun night in Nigeria where he felt "easy" whereas he feels "difficult" with Adam and feels to "fly".

I think that Eric, while a open and warm guy to be with and a wonderful friend to Otis, lacks something essential: tenacity whereas Adam seems to have it. Could the cause be Eric, living in an understanding family, has had it easy whereas Adam has had a lot hardships. (Eric said that he has gone a long way since coming out as gay, but we haven't seen it.)

I am not saying Eric did wrong to drop Adam. But maybe he should think what "love" means to him - is it just a feeling that exists in one moment and vanishes in next moment? Or is it something else? 

[Roseanna]

On 9/18/2021 at 11:14 PM, Danny Franks said:

Isaac suddenly being the noble, 'if I'm not your first choice, I don't want this' hero, after his entire mindset being established as 'take what you can, because no one is going to give you anything.'

Was Isaac actually noble or was he on the contrary acting like a child by demanding that he can't be in the relationship with Maeve if he must doubt how she feels towards him and Otis? If he had really loved her, wouldn't have at least tried?

Also, his words to Maeve "I don't deserve this" was ridiculous in egoism and lack of self-knowledge: did he really think that he "deserved" Maeve when his had got her only by betraying her trust?

All in all, whereas the whole plot was artificial, the end was stupid: Maeve choses Isaac over Otis but then Isaac drops Maeve so that Otis and Maeve can be together (for a while). 

[Roseanna]

On 9/17/2021 at 5:28 PM, Aulty said:

I am really annoyed how they again ended the season making sure Maeve and Otis can't be together. Not even going into how riddiculous the timeline for US stuy programme application, acceptance and leaving was.

 

On 9/18/2021 at 8:41 AM, pootlus said:

The Otis and Maeve get together only for her to disappear to the US was unfortunately blindingly obvious from when the US scholarship was mentioned.

Watching again, I made a different interpretation.

Otis showed that he really loved Maeve, meaning that he wanted the best for her even if it meant a separation from her, when he said that he was glad for her going to America. And Maeve understood that when she answered that she would come back and then they would look at what kind of relationship they would have then.

Even before, Otis showed real love towards Maeve when he said that he wanted to be with Maeve even if they weren't dating because they were a good team. Remember the end of S2 when Otis's dad who was a complete asshole, told his son that he shouldn't let people who are important to leave his life, as he had done to his son. 

So the crux of the matter isn't if Maeve and Otis are a couple or not, but that they should be a part of each others' life because they both have something that  makes the other become the best they can become whereas without each other other they tend to behave worse.  

[DoctorAtomic]

I just rammed through this on the plane this week. There was certainly a lot going on. I actually thought the Isaac plot did the least for me since we all knew he deleted the voicemail, and you all took care of that discussion already. I almost think Maeve needs some time to herself with being pulled in so many directions. 

I don't have an issue with Otis and Maeve being apart again, but if there is a next season, it needs to be resolved. I thought their last conversation was the most adult they've ever been. Even if they don't end up together, I think they'll be in each other's lives in some way. And that's fine too. 

I didn't know what to make of Adam and Eric, though I don't think it's upon Eric to be Adam's coming out spirit guide or whatever. They can be in different places with the relationship just not going to work, but it made Eric look bad, and now Adam isn't going to want to talk to him, and he needs someone to talk to. I also think TPTBs erred on making Adam *too* much a bully at the first. I was disappointed he didn't have a chance to reconcile with the dad, but I liked he got some purpose with the dog shows. There were some side plots thrown in that I think took away from that opportunity. I don't think they needed an entire episode going to France. 

It was interesting to see the increasing draconian measures at the school, and I'm sure everyone knew that was going to backfire. It was quite the twist that the students shot themselves in the foot. I don't think Hope really got the consequences she should have for her recorded diatribe. That was just cruel things to say to teenagers/young adults. Otis seemed more the adult in their conversation. 

Aimes just stole every scene she was in. I love her. We'd totally be pals irl. 

I'm not sure we needed a paternity cliffhanger for the new baby Joy either. I didn't think Jean and Jakob needed to 'be a family' so soon. Just him going to therapy was good development. 

 I would like a final season to generally resolve everything. I don't think everyone needs a pat ending. Otis/Maeve should be resolved in some way, and I would like to see everyone graduate. 

[Lunula]

I binged all 3 seasons over the course of a week and I have to say - although I really love the show, I'm going to be super-duper pissed off if it turns out Jakob is not the father of this baby. I respected the way they've written Jean thus far - intelligent, open and honest - so, she's either too dumb to realize Jakob could possibly not be the father, or too dishonest to tell him the truth. Either way, I hate it. 

I can only hope she got someone else's results or something, thus the, "Oh shit!" comment.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Lunula

[Bastet]

Eric and Otis's friendship is one of my favorite things about the show, and that was on full display when Jean was taken into surgery.  Eric cuddling Otis melted my heart, and his reaction to the vending machine guy was perfection.  I also love "Uncle Eric" helping build the tree house.

I appreciated the realism that Adam and Madam didn't place at the dog show, but also loved that he got recognized; that smile when he saw his mom and teacher applauding him was great to see. 

Aimee and Maeve's friendship is my other favorite thing about the show, so I loved Aimee giving Maeve a reality check when she was going to turn down this great opportunity because of a boy.

It's been three seasons now, and I still don't see what the writers want me to see with Maeve and Otis.  I think they make wonderful friends, but I am not at all interested in them as a couple.

This stupid pregnancy storyline was already doing Jean no favors, and now she's so dumb she was sure the guy who'd had a vasectomy was the father even though she'd had unprotected sex with someone else in the same time frame (not to mention the utter stupidity of having unprotected sex)?  Assuming her "oh shit" upon reading the DNA results means Jakob isn't the father.  I'm hoping that's a fake-out.

[Enginerd]

On 2/18/2022 at 1:32 PM, Bastet said:

This stupid pregnancy storyline was already doing Jean no favors, and now she's so dumb she was sure the guy who'd had a vasectomy was the father even though she'd had unprotected sex with someone else in the same time frame (not to mention the utter stupidity of having unprotected sex)?  Assuming her "oh shit" upon reading the DNA results means Jakob isn't the father.  I'm hoping that's a fake-out.

Maybe she submitted samples and found out that Otis isn't her ex-husband's bio child, but the child of some other rando she hooked up with all those years ago. New daddy for Otis!

I wonder if this show will ever get around to making the point that, while teens are going to have sex and they should be able to ask questions and get accurate information and have happy, healthy sexual lives, that doesn't mean that SEX SEX SEX all the time everywhere is appropriate. There are constantly kids fornicating right in front of everyone at school and stuff. Subjecting other people to your sexual activities without their consent is not okay. Find the happy medium between oppression and being sex creeps with no respect for boundaries, occasion, or location.

[supposebly]

On 5/18/2022 at 7:06 PM, Enginerd said:

There are constantly kids fornicating right in front of everyone at school and stuff.

It's always the same ones. I just thought it was some kind of ongoing joke to have them have sex in front of everyone and no one batting an eye.