TWD Women Who's the bigger threat: Walkers or Writers?

[kj4ever]

I realize this show is based on a comic book, which let's face it is geared towards a certain population of men. 

 

When I found myself detesting a lot of the main women characters in the show the first season I had to wonder WTF? 

 

You have Lori, who runs off in the middle of the Apocalypse to have sex with her recently deceased husband's best friend, leaving other people to make sure her kid is safe I guess?  To her credit she immediately ends it when said husband returns, but them mind-screws best friend when he says he's leaving.

 

Then their is Andrea, who really came off as lazy.  Sophia missing?  Everyone else checking cars for booty?  Well Andrea will just be sitting in the RV playing with her gun. 

 

Then Carol who brings an ironing board to the Apocalypse, spends the first half of the seasons whining and the last killing.

 

Beth is only good as a Nanny.  Michonne and Maggie are about the only ones shown as strong women who can defend their own person.

 

Is this just the natural arcs of the show, or did it suffer (especially the first couple of seasons) from comic book boy view?

[lulee]

I agree with what you've said, but I think we may have reason for optimism: more recent additions Sasha, Tara, and Rosita have been shown to be as smart and able as typical characters of either sex, and Beth looks like she'll be getting a very active storyline.

 

ETA: I do think it's a common problem of writers - TV, comics, movies -- not knowing how to write women as plot drivers beyond wife/girlfriend/mother roles.

Edited July 31, 2014 by lulee

[dannymoon]

Interesting thread! I never read the comics and I have not heard if Lori is generally more well-liked or not in the book. But I have heard that Andrea is pretty awesome in the comics. It seems the writers decided to try a completely different arc for her character and stray far from the book, clearly not predicting how awful she was going to come across, particularly in season 3. I never disliked Lori nearly as much as I did Andrea.

[Izzyboy]

I've actually just started reading the comics in the last month and I can say that Andrea is MUCH better in the comics than she is in the TV show.  I couldn't stand her character on the show but she's one of my favorites in the comics.  Lori is a little better in the comics, but I don't feel her character is much different.  I would say that I actually like Show!Maggie more than Comic!Maggie though...

[kj4ever]

I wonder if part of Andrea was the actress too.  She always came off as smug and conceited when she wasn't whining.  Some of the things on the show that made me want to smack her could have been delivered totally differently.  For instance when she jumped off the wall to kill the walker her delivery of "and that's how it's done" was all self important and proud and well just douchey.  If she had delivered the line more seriously, like we need to take care of these walkers before they get to close, well it would have prompted a completely different reaction from me.

 

It doesn't help that I just hate hate hate the character she played on X-Files.

[kj4ever]

Interesting thread! I never read the comics and I have not heard if Lori is generally more well-liked or not in the book. But I have heard that Andrea is pretty awesome in the comics. It seems the writers decided to try a completely different arc for her character and stray far from the book, clearly not predicting how awful she was going to come across, particularly in season 3. I never disliked Lori nearly as much as I did Andrea.

By the end of season two I just hated Lori.  There is one scene where Shane is like "Are you sure you want me to stay, are you sure?" and he is eye screwing her the whole time.  There's no way she couldn't have seen his meaning, like did she want him to stay for her.  All she said was yes.  No "Yes I want you to stay but we still will not be together"  none of that.  My boyfriend remarked "Damn she's stringing Shane along as backup.  Oh this can't end well."

 

Later she did try to explain they could not be together that way, but it was to late by then.  She had given Shane hope.  

 

Then season three she became much more sympathetic, because let's face it, who wouldn't feel for a woman who is 9 months prego in the Apocalypse and has a husband and son who hate her guts. 

[Emily Thrace]

I love Michonne as I just hope she doesn't end engaging in the bedhopping that her comic book character did. Although I think at this point the writers have put so much effort into setting up Richonne and there has been such a huge fan response I think they need to pay that off somewhat.

 

I think Beth has potential maybe not as a badass but she could end up taking a much more traditional role and gaining power and agency from that. I tihnk it might take a season or two but the journey is part of the fun. Even now Beth has pull over both Darryl and even Rick through his kids. She could end being someone who has a lot of power within the group itself even if she stays in a caregiver type of role. Lori was a failure characterwise because no one appreciated her efforts and she wound up stirring up more trouble than she solved. I don't see Beth making the same mistakes. Lori was a fundametally selfish person her goal was always her own interests where Beth is self sacrificing and would put the groups interests ahead of her own. I  really could see Beth becoming someone who takes care of the day to day minutia of laundry and food and chasing kids and officailly has no rank but still winds up having a lot influence because the groups leaders trust her moral compass. She would be the more subversive type of feminist type of character and I think it would be nice for the show to acknowledge the world needs more than just hardcore Zombie killers if humanity is going to survive.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Michone appears to be over sexualized in the comic.

Being an AA woman, I'm happy Gimple and Co deviated from that in the TV series.

Plus I like how Richonne is on slow burn.

[walnutqueen]

I'm going to share a deep dark secret with y'all, because it's Christmas, and you always tell the truth ...

 

I didn't dislike Laurie or Andrea, and I don't dislike Beth, either.  I like my women human, flawed and complicated, just like the men.  I find something to empathize with in almost all the women of TWD - although I'm not yet feeling Rosita ...

[kikismom]

I like my TWD women like I like my coffee---hot, strong, and bitter.

[mandolin]

I have read the comics and didn't like Lori there either, but I didn't haaaaate her like I did on the show. I watched the show first, so I think SWC's portrayal kind of ruined me for the character. Rewatching the episodes with her, the way she says her lines bugs me. Almost everything she says makes me mad, even if it's a nothing thing. In S02e01, when they are at the "graveyard" of cars, she tells Carl to stay "always in my sight" and does the two finger point from her eyes to his. I want to punch her. Anyway, this thread isn't about SWC.

 

I really enjoy comic book Andrea, and other than Michonne's aforementioned sexual escapades, I like her as well (that part of her character just does nothing to add to her for me).

 

I'm pretty happy with the current set of female leads on the show, Michonne being my favorite by far. I'm very glad Andrea is gone.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

The female characters have fared better on Gimple's watch.

Except Emily Kinney, don't hate Beth but she's not a strong actress.

Jury's still out on Tara and Rosita.

[Emily Thrace]

The female characters have fared better on Gimple's watch.

 

I think that's definitely true I liked how quick he was to defend Beth on the most recent Talking Dead. Gimple seems very invested in her character and all the women on the show which is a great sign. Although he was probably a little two quick I got the feeling he'd done it before. That's what truly worries me about the women on this show, that Gimple isn't show much the man in charge as he is the straw boss for Kirkman. I have heard nothing good about Kirkman and nothing about him or the comics convinces me that he has clue about writing female characters.

 

I didn't dislike Laurie or Andrea, and I don't dislike Beth, either.  I like my women human, flawed and complicated, just like the men.  I find something to empathize with in almost all the women of TWD - although I'm not yet feeling Rosita ...

I don't hate Lori either, I don't particularly like her but I did understand her at certain points, I think Lori was just someone who was used to always getting what she wanted and didn't quite know how to deal when the world went to shit.  Lori didn't know who to deal with the new world so she trued like hell to make it look like the old world. That's why she clashed with Andrea, because Andrea was adapting to the new world and threatening Lori's position as the Queen bee.

 

Andrea I could like at certain points she was just very inconsistent overall. I think the actress was just miscast more than anything. Andrea was writtten as young woman and the actress was nearly fourty. Andrea's relationship with Guvernor and Woodbury make a lot more sense when you realize the character is supposed to be a lot younger.

 

I think with Tara and Rosita I'm still waiting for them to transcend the cliche a bit. I'm wary of both thier characters because they are fairly blatant case of tokenism.  I think Rosita could be a good character if only because the character seems willing to speak her mind. I just hope we see more from her next season.

 

watched the show first, so I think SWC's portrayal kind of ruined me for the character. Rewatching the episodes with her, the way she says her lines bugs me

I have this issue with Carol so many of her lines seem to come out in a whine and she soooo self pitying.  I find it so irratating, I can forgive a lot from characters but self pity always drives me up the wall.. I feel like saying "Yes you are a burden, now shut up cuz whining just makes you an annoying burden". Or yes Karen and David were sick however that was not their fault, you stabing them in the head was your fault. Now quit trying to manipulate Tyreese/Rick with your aligator tears. I don't hate Carol yet but I'm getting there. I think her reaction to being back with the group will make or break it. for me. I don't think she should be on her knees begging for forgiveness but some genuine contrition would be nice. If she plays the victim and makes out like Rick is the bad guy I will officallly be routing for the walkers to get her. 

[ghoulina]

The only woman on this show who I flat out hated was Andrea. I hated her from the minute she stuck that gun in Rick's face in the department store, and I basically never stopped hating her. But other than her, I don't find any of the women terribly awful. 

 

Lori definitely irked, but as I re-watched the show I began to understand her a bit more. And I think she really turned it around in season 3, or tried to. Shane pissed me off just as much as Lori did - I think they were both flawed people who made a mistake and were equally at fault for what happened between them. 

 

Other than Shane, there are plenty of male characters that have been hated on this show - Dale being a big one. When we re-watch, my husband makes me FF every scene with Dale. He just cannot stand him. Then you have the big, bad Governor. Tyrese has had some pretty unlikable moments, IMO. When I first started watching lurking the old TWOP threads about TWD, I found Carl to be one of the most hated characters on the show (I never agreed). 

 

As for the women, Carol and Michonne are definitely in my top five favorite characters, Carol might even be #2. I really love the complexity of their characters and the way they've grown over the seasons. I don't even hate Beth, I just think Emily Kinney is a bit of an insecure actress. Maggie can be boring at times, but other times she's all kinds of awesome. 

 

In closing (yes, this was fairly rambly), I know I might be in the minority, but I don't really see a distinct inferior treatment of women on this show. I think the men can get it just as bad. 

[Watcher0363]

I think the writers have done a good job portraying all types of women in this ZA.

 

*Lori: Was your typical alpha female “want to be”. She all ways wants to be with the alpha male for status and comfort. Getting pregnant just another alpha female “want to be” trick. To insure she is always tops in priority in the group. I say “want to be” alpha female because in the ZA fighting skills are more prized than illicit sex and child bearing.

 

*Andrea: Was your I am a strong woman, but in reality was a very scared, weak and insecure woman. She would have died at the CDC if Dale had not pulled the we die together guilt trip on her. Andrea settling in with the Governor even after she sensed his barbaric nature and after Michonne's warning. Is so typical of her type, you really need to go with a 2 x 4 to the head before they will give up their security blanket. Usually through their death, c'est la vie.

 

*Beth: Daddy's girl without a doubt. She so wanted to be what Herschel wanted her to be and she played the part well. But in the process she was learning, becoming in the end I think more valuable than Maggie. Beth accepted the ZA quicker and more quietly than many. After her brief depression because of the barn. Beth has become child caretaker, health administer, walker maintenance helper. She is always willing to learn, her brief time with Darly proved that, and now that daddy is gone. She can grow into a strong woman with more skill sets than Maggie.

 

*Maggie: Is the older sister who like Beth has accepted the ZA for what it is. Life is not going to be fair from now on. You find someone to watch your back, you watch their back and together you survive. She is tough with that one fatal flaw, she needs to be balanced with someone she believes to be special. If left alone for to long Maggie would give up and die. Maggie is semi tough, she needs a ying to her yang.

 

*Michonne: Is true tough. She is a survivor supreme. It is clear that she did not know she had this in her. But when betrayed from her point of view by people who should have had her and her child's back. She extracted medieval justice on them and punished herself for relying on such weak people. She has learned to dial her humanity to the proper level for the situation she is in. That is why she was able to leave Andrea after caring for her over a few months. She knows weak and lost causes when she sees them now. Like wise she knows where strength can be found with the right people. But make no mistake she will go it alone and survive if she needs, until she either dies or the world changes again for the better.

 

*Sasha: Is Michonne light without the deep internal pain. If she ever experiences that deep loss and pain. The ZA will become a much safer place with her and Michonne in the Amazon warrior mode.

 

*Carol: Let us face it, Carol is just Andrea 15 years older. If Andrea had lived in normal times she would have become what Carol was. Carol is the permanent victim. She was freed from a submissive existence by circumstance. Now she is trying to compensate for her weak nature by being overly aggressive. But in the end she will always do something to make herself the victim. She accepted Rick's punishment, went away but never to far because she wanted to come back to suffer his disdain of her. The way she confessed to Tyreese. I will leave it at that, I do not want to go Stephen A. Smith on these forums.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Watcher0363

[Ocean Chick]

Interesting, as I don't see Carol as a victim at all at this point.  Nor do I see her as overly agressive.  I don't think Scott Gimple does either, as he hinted during SDCC that he thought that Carol might be the MOST capable leader in the group at this point.  She didn't leave the area after Rick's banishment, I believe, because she wanted to check on the girls and make sure that Rick was keeping his promise to take care of them.  I think that if she thought that Rick was ignorning them, she'd have snuck into the prison and taken them with her.  But the prison fell to The Gov before that happened.

 

I like that Michonne is becoming less of a "comic book" figure.  I think Maggie is MUCH stronger than Beth, and probably always will be.  I like the idea of a Beth-type character, but I don't think EK has the acting chops to stand out against the very strong acting skills of the other actors.  I'm really enjoying Sasha and want to see more of her.  Tara and Rosita have not made much of an impression on me as yet.

 

Lori pissed me off with her pushme/pullyou attitude with Rick and Shane, but I didn't hate her.  Andrea made me want to slap some sense into her, and made me thing they were setting her up to play the "dumb blonde".  And I really wanted to slap both the actress AND the makeup crew for giving her visible makeup during the za.  Where was she picking up all the lip gloss and mascara from?  And how was she curling her hair when she was hiding in the woods with Michonne?  Ugh.

[Emily Thrace]

Carol was. Carol is the permanent victim. She was freed from a submissive existence by circumstance. Now she is trying to compensate for her weak nature by being overly aggressive.

Exactly the issue I have with Carol is that she doesn't act from a place of caring and strength but rather one of fear.

.

as he hinted during SDCC that he thought that Carol might be the MOST capable leader in the group at this point

That a reeeaal stretch base on what Gimple said(I assume your talking about his answer at the panel) and Carol's abilities.  She doesn't plan well or think of the bigger picture as she demonstrated by killing Karvid. Carol also tends to project a lot and doesn't read people well as she demonstrated with Lizzie and her confession to Tyreese. She was basically a demotivational teacher to Mika. She certainly doesn't seem to be good at getting people to work together. I don't see Carol as a leader she just doesn't seem to deal with people or decisions very well.

[ghoulina]

I'm kind of in the middle. I don't see Carol as a victim any more at this point either. I think she has become quite strong and capable. She's a real survivor. But I don't necessarily see her as a leader either. Not yet. Does she have the potential to be? Sure. But she's not quite there. I think what happened in the Grove is going to have a real effect on her character, though, and we'll probably see some more growth because of that come this next season. 

[kikismom]

Interesting, as I don't see Carol as a victim at all at this point.  Nor do I see her as overly agressive.  I don't think Scott Gimple does either, as he hinted during SDCC that he thought that Carol might be the MOST capable leader in the group at this point.

 

 

 

 

.

That a reeeaal stretch base on what Gimple said(I assume your talking about his answer at the panel)

 

Here's the interview for others to read; make your own judgment!

http://www.wetpaint.com/walking-dead/articles/2014-08-04-season-5-carol-fit-leader

Edited August 8, 2014 by kikismom

[Ocean Chick]

Exactly the issue I have with Carol is that she doesn't act from a place of caring and strength but rather one of fear.

.

That a reeeaal stretch base on what Gimple said(I assume your talking about his answer at the panel) and Carol's abilities.  She doesn't plan well or think of the bigger picture as she demonstrated by killing Karvid. Carol also tends to project a lot and doesn't read people well as she demonstrated with Lizzie and her confession to Tyreese. She was basically a demotivational teacher to Mika. She certainly doesn't seem to be good at getting people to work together. I don't see Carol as a leader she just doesn't seem to deal with people or decisions very well.

 

Kikismom posted the interview I was referring to.

 

Not reading Lizzie well - well, she read her as well as anyone else did.  Even Rick didn't realize how completely off the rails Lizzie was.  No one but Ryan and Mika did.  And I'd say she read Tyreese just fine - he did forgive her, didn't he?  Considering that she seems well liked in the group, at least before the Karvid decision, she seems to deal with people just fine.  Ryan liked her well enough to leave the girls in her care.  Tyreese also left Sasha in her care, saying that she was a caring individual.  No one had a beef with her before, and though some may not to trust her anytime soon, I think others will be just fine with her.

 

CC and SG seem to think her decision making is also in the norm, according to the interview.  But viewpoints will differ.

[kikismom]

CC also has good things to say about the character Carol in this article:

 

http://collider.com/the-walking-dead-season-5-trailer-comic-con-recap/

 

 

Edited August 8, 2014 by kikismom

[kj4ever]

I think the writers have done a good job portraying all types of women in this ZA.

 

*Lori: Was your typical alpha female “want to be”. She all ways wants to be with the alpha male for status and comfort. Getting pregnant just another alpha female “want to be” trick. To insure she is always tops in priority in the group. I say “want to be” alpha female because in the ZA fighting skills are more prized than illicit sex and child bearing.

 

*Andrea: Was your I am a strong woman, but in reality was a very scared, weak and insecure woman. She would have died at the CDC if Dale had not pulled the we die together guilt trip on her. Andrea settling in with the Governor even after she sensed his barbaric nature and after Michonne's warning. Is so typical of her type, you really need to go with a 2 x 4 to the head before they will give up their security blanket. Usually through their death, c'est la vie.

 

*Beth: Daddy's girl without a doubt. She so wanted to be what Herschel wanted her to be and she played the part well. But in the process she was learning, becoming in the end I think more valuable than Maggie. Beth accepted the ZA quicker and more quietly than many. After her brief depression because of the barn. Beth has become child caretaker, health administer, walker maintenance helper. She is always willing to learn, her brief time with Darly proved that, and now that daddy is gone. She can grow into a strong woman with more skill sets than Maggie.

 

*Maggie: Is the older sister who like Beth has accepted the ZA for what it is. Life is not going to be fair from now on. You find someone to watch your back, you watch their back and together you survive. She is tough with that one fatal flaw, she needs to be balanced with someone she believes to be special. If left alone for to long Maggie would give up and die. Maggie is semi tough, she needs a ying to her yang.

 

*Michonne: Is true tough. She is a survivor supreme. It is clear that she did not know she had this in her. But when betrayed from her point of view by people who should have had her and her child's back. She extracted medieval justice on them and punished herself for relying on such weak people. She has learned to dial her humanity to the proper level for the situation she is in. That is why she was able to leave Andrea after caring for her over a few months. She knows weak and lost causes when she sees them now. Like wise she knows where strength can be found with the right people. But make no mistake she will go it alone and survive if she needs, until she either dies or the world changes again for the better.

 

*Sasha: Is Michonne light without the deep internal pain. If she ever experiences that deep loss and pain. The ZA will become a much safer place with her and Michonne in the Amazon warrior mode.

 

*Carol: Let us face it, Carol is just Andrea 15 years older. If Andrea had lived in normal times she would have become what Carol was. Carol is the permanent victim. She was freed from a submissive existence by circumstance. Now she is trying to compensate for her weak nature by being overly aggressive. But in the end she will always do something to make herself the victim. She accepted Rick's punishment, went away but never to far because she wanted to come back to suffer his disdain of her. The way she confessed to Tyreese. I will leave it at that, I do not want to go Stephen A. Smith on these forums.

I know my judgement of Lori and Carol will always be much harsher based on the fact that I thought they were horrible Mothers.  I don't know if Lori got knocked up on purpose, but I do think she screwed Shane to be the leader's partner, and I also think that is why she kept mind fucking him after Rick got back - to keep him around in case Rick didn't cut the mustard.  I know people defend her that she was in the middle of the za and needed comfort blah blah fucking blah, but the fact of the matter is she thought her hubby was dead for what? 3 weeks?  We also don't know how long they were screwing around as Shane said "We were carrying on quite a bit", so their little tryst in the woods wasn't the first time. 

 

Even though I probably wouldn't hold that against her I most certainly do hold leaving her child in the middle of the za for a booty call in the middle of the woods.  She didn't know those people she left him with so she could get layed.  Horrid.  Add to that how many times she lost track of him, how many times he caused bad things to happen because she couldn't do her job as a Mother, well she's about the worst in my book on the show.  I know people say "Oh you can't watch a boy every second"....Umm yes you can.  My own Mother stood in line twice when the Mama Bear was handed out so I guess I have a really high standard when it comes to Moms.

 

But if we take this and go back to my original question...Knowing kind of what type of person Lori was, based on what we saw on the show, was all this feasible or was it a bunch of writers sitting around going "oh we should have them screw in the woods!" ?  I mean they did portray their marriage was not going so well before Rick was shot, but in my experience usually people remember all the good when they think someone died/is dying.  She had to of started up with Shane pretty quickly after Rick "died", and I just don't know if that is in character.

 

I think you are spot on with Beth.  I don't get the Beth hate or the hate for the actress.  She's playing a 17 year old and I think doing it pretty well.  I agree that she has accepted the ZA quickly, but that is to be expected by the youngest.  Change is always easier the younger you are because you are used to going through change constantly.  I do think we will see a new Beth now that Herschel is gone because let's face it, Herschel was probably the most resistant to how the world was changing out of everyone on the show.  Getting her to take care of Judith all the time was probably her way from keeping her from everything, much like how Rick wanted to keep Carl from things.  I hope they don't kill her off or anything because I think her story could be very interesting and I'd like to see it develop.

 

Carol - God I just don't know about Carol.  She is by far the most interesting character even if you want to smack her.  I think out of all of them she might be the most true to life character as she hasn't been forced into some romance.  I know people talk the Daryl/Carol crap but I just don't see it.  I think they are very good friends and she jokes around with him.  Well, I'm hoping she's joking because the way he rebuffs all her advances would just make her pathetic to keep trying.

 

I understand why she turned into a murderer, but I don't think Rick had his mind made up to banish her until their little trip.  The title of the episode was "Indifference" and that is exactly how she was - indifferent to what she did.  I really do think Rick might have thought twice if she had shown even the slightest bit of remorse, and she didn't.  At. All.

 

I'm hoping Tara is a red shirt because she bugs the holy hell out of me.  Rosita too but that's just because she showed up to the ZA in daisy dukes and hoop earings.  I have never really cared what happened to Sasha.  They haven't fleshed her out as a character except for she can be bossy as hell and it's quite annoying.

[ghoulina]

do think she screwed Shane to be the leader's partner,

 

I agree with this, but I don't see her doing it in a status symbol kind of way. I think she did it out of protection for her and for Carl. Yes, I think part of her and Shane hooking up was the fact that people were dying all around them and they wanted that connection, to feel alive, to escape...whatever the case may be. Was it awful fast, considering Rick had just "died"? Yes. But everything moves fast in a ZA. Look how quickly Glenn and Maggie fell in love. Look how quickly Carl has grown over just a short time. But anyhow, I think part of why Lori hitched her wagon to Shane was because she wanted someone strong to be unequivocally there for her and her son. Not only are their zombies on the loose, but humans are going to be losing control of their senses and become a threat all on their own. Her instincts probably told her she needed this man to be her protector. 

 

I think both Lori and Shane were "wrong" in their own ways for what happened, but the more I watched these episodes, the more slack I cut them. And I don't think Lori intentionally mind-fucked Shane after Rick came back. I don't think she was trying to keep him as her back-up plan. I just think it was a complicated situation that was not so easy to sever. I think there were genuine feelings there - I think Shane thought he was truly in love with Lori, while Lori still loved Shane, but more as a friend. She felt anger with him, over being deceived about Rick being dead - but she still cared about him. They were both wrestling with conflicting emotions, while trying to stay alive on top of it. I just really can't hate on any of them for what happened. 

[mandolin]

I think both Lori and Shane were "wrong" in their own ways for what happened, but the more I watched these episodes, the more slack I cut them. And I don't think Lori intentionally mind-fucked Shane after Rick came back. I don't think she was trying to keep him as her back-up plan. I just think it was a complicated situation that was not so easy to sever. I think there were genuine feelings there - I think Shane thought he was truly in love with Lori, while Lori still loved Shane, but more as a friend. She felt anger with him, over being deceived about Rick being dead - but she still cared about him. They were both wrestling with conflicting emotions, while trying to stay alive on top of it. I just really can't hate on any of them for what happened. 

I find this interesting, as the more I watch the episodes, the more I think Lori did everything she could think of to keep Shane on a string. I think she waffled on her opinion as to whether Rick could cut it in "this world" and if Shane came out more capable, I think she'd quickly have thrown herself back to him. Now, I don't think she said to herself, "I'm going to say this to Shane and this to Rick so I have some options" but I don't think she ever showed self awareness or care in that strange situation they ended up in when Rick came back. To me, she only thought of herself.

[eejm]

I get a kick out of Tara, and I have high hopes for her partly because as a lesbian, it's more difficult for the writers to default to the wife/girlfriend/mother role that women are normally relegated.  She was also established early on as very tough (she was physically protective of her family when the Governor found them) and extremely loyal (her following of the Governor before she knew what he had planned, her following of Glenn after the prison fell).  While I think the main cast has gotten a bit big, I do hope Tara doesn't become a walker snack for quite awhile.  I like having her around.

[ghoulina]

I don't mind Tara. At first I couldn't stand her, though. When she was with The Guv I found her insufferable. But with Glenn, she was a lot more likable. I found it endearing how loyal she became to him in such a short period, and how badly she wanted to help him find Maggie. I think part of my issue with her is that the actress is not the best. She's not horrible, but she could use some work. But I would prefer to see her stick around as opposed to Rosita. 

[Emily Thrace]

I get a kick out of Tara, and I have high hopes for her partly because as a lesbian,

This is actually what makes me wary of her as she reeks of tokenism. Token characters don't tend to be very well thought out and end up being shoehorned in. .

 

But anyhow, I think part of why Lori hitched her wagon to Shane was because she wanted someone strong to be unequivocally there for her and her son.

I think that was definitely part of it and that why I don't hate her for sleeping with Shane. I do think she liked the status of being with the Alpha male though too.  I think Lori was very much a Prom Queen type all grown up and literally had no idea of what to do if everyone wasn't worshipping at her feet. I think that's actually part of why she was stringing Shane along she needed him to love her to. Even if she didn't want to be with him right that secound she still couldn't stand the idea that Shane might actually hate her. I also think that part of the problem was Lori wasn't in love with Rick and hadn't been in a long time. It made it hard for her to be convincing to anyone that her and Rick should be together.

 

CC and SG seem to think her decision making is also in the norm, according to the interview.  But viewpoints will differ.

I see it more as SG saying Carol "could be" a leader someday. Beth could be a good leader someday. Hell Carl could be a good leader someday but I think Carol is miles away from a place where she should be in charge of anyone. I think the way she handled Karvid, (not just that she made the decision but the cover-up) showed she is to secretive and too arrogant to really be a leader right now.

[eejm]

This is actually what makes me wary of her as she reeks of tokenism. Token characters don't tend to be very well thought out and end up being shoehorned in. 

 

I can understand that, and I won't say it doesn't make me skeptical over what the writers have planned for Tara as well.  On the flip side of that, sex comes far down on the list of these characters' priorities simply because they're fighting for their lives.  I'm hoping that will keep Tara from becoming remarkable only for her sexuality, but also prevent her from falling solely into the stereotypical female "caregiver" roles.  

[NumberCruncher]

I can understand that, and I won't say it doesn't make me skeptical over what the writers have planned for Tara as well.  On the flip side of that, sex comes far down on the list of these characters' priorities simply because they're fighting for their lives.  I'm hoping that will keep Tara from becoming remarkable only for her sexuality, but also prevent her from falling solely into the stereotypical female "caregiver" roles.  

 

I think she was already not likely to be relegated to the caregiver role on the show because she's a former cop.  I don't think her sexuality would have had anything to do with it.  The one thing it does do, however, is ensure that she's not defined as a character by her relationships with the male "heroes" (unlike Lori).

[Ocean Chick]

Tara is a former wanna-be cop.  I believe she was still in the academy when it all went down, if I remember correctly.  She certainly wasn't a street cop.  Everything about her was all bluster and swag, but when the sh*t hit the fan, she folded like fresh laundry.  But I'm glad we have at least 1 female character that people won't be spending all their time trying to 'ship with 1 or more of the male characters.

 

And I can't see anyone trying to ship Eugene with any of the female characters either, so that's another win for me.

[ghoulina]

Amen to that! When season 4 started with Beth saying goodbye to her boyfriend, Tyrese being lovey dovey with Karen,Glenn and Maggie possibly expecting, and the underlying tension you get with Caryl and Richonne - I was about quit this show. The last thing I need in my ZA is a bunch of romance. 

[kj4ever]

I liked how Karen told Tyreese she wasn't ready for sex when he wanted her to come back to his cell.  I think that is a much more normal reaction.  Seriously, getting pregnant was scary enough when I was in my 20's when there was readily available birth control and hospitals and doctors and drugs.  Just the break down in society would make having a baby terrifying enough, much less knowing you could be on the run from walkers with a crying baby if you survived.

 

I would think most women would have their legs permanently clamped shut.  i know women had babies all the time before hospitals and stuff, otherwise we wouldn't be here, but we are not that tough and there weren't dead people walking around back then.  I would think romance would be at the bare minimum in the ZA.

Edited August 15, 2014 by kj4ever

[ghoulina]

I think it would be kind of a catch-22. On the one hand, you're right - having a kid would be a terrifying prospect and I'd want to avoid getting pregnant at all costs (at first reports of ZA, before society collapses, run to the doc for an IUD, ladies!). On the other hand, though, intense situations like these have been known to make people feel a strong need for that carnal comfort. Sex can make you feel alive, when everything around you is dying. You're not going to have courting, date nights, love letters, etc. But I think there might be a lot of Shane-Andrea style hook-ups going on. 

[kikismom]

Pregnancy does not only result from romantic love.

Look at third world countries with war all around and starvation, and babies born all the time. I doubt all those women were asked if they wanted to do this.

Carnal urges don't seem to slow down in the people who don't have to do the giving birth.

[Watcher0363]

I think it would be kind of a catch-22. On the one hand, you're right - having a kid would be a terrifying prospect and I'd want to avoid getting pregnant at all costs (at first reports of ZA, before society collapses, run to the doc for an IUD, ladies!). On the other hand, though, intense situations like these have been known to make people feel a strong need for that carnal comfort. Sex can make you feel alive, when everything around you is dying. You're not going to have courting, date nights, love letters, etc. But I think there might be a lot of Shane-Andrea style hook-ups going on. 

I think you are right people would be having sex any time they could. Because any minute in the ZA could be your last. Also high stress situation have been known to cause an increase in the need for sex. Ask any army involved in a war.

[momlyd]

Laurie Holden is almost 45. Melissa McBride is 50. Sarah Wayne Callies is 37. I am so thrilled that women "of a certain age" are in this show and are playing characters that are so complex. I'm even more thrilled that Carol is still on the show and looks to be staying. 

[ghoulina]

I REALLY hope Carol stays. She's easily my favorite character on the show. I agree. I'm 34, and I'm glad there are women (moms, wives) that I can relate to, not just a bunch of hot teeny-boppers. Even Maggie, who is supposed to be in her young 20s feels very normal and relatable.

[kj4ever]

I REALLY hope Carol stays. She's easily my favorite character on the show. I agree. I'm 34, and I'm glad there are women (moms, wives) that I can relate to, not just a bunch of hot teeny-boppers. Even Maggie, who is supposed to be in her young 20s feels very normal and relatable.

I don't "like" Carol on the show but I love that she's on it because she is so complex and interesting.  Does that make sense?

 

I read an article with the actress that plays Maggie and she was talking about how she is proud that she has more of a normal body and broad shoulders that make her sturdy looking.  She seemed very down to Earth and aware of how important it was to portray a good body image to young girls.  I think she's in her 30's but her character is supposed to be like 22 I think?  TWD has wacky actors playing wacky ages.  I thought Carol was in her mid fifties, Daryl was in his late 20's/early 30's (not now but in the first couple of seasons.  That dark long hair ages him big time.), and Maggie was around the age she was supposed to be.  I also thought that Rick was way older and Lori was way younger than 37..

 

With all the plastic surgery junk out there I guess it is just hard to tell how old people are now!

[ghoulina]

I don't "like" Carol on the show but I love that she's on it because she is so complex and interesting.  Does that make sense?

 

I know what you mean. I don't agree, I actually really like Carol, but I totally know what you mean. It's kind of like how I felt about Merle. He was a despicable person, but he was such a different character and I enjoyed watching him. Of course, he ruined all that by making me love him at the very end. Haha!

 

I don't even bother with ages, I am a horrible judge of age. I will have an idea of how old these people are in my head, and then read what others think online and be totally surprised. I always assumed Daryl was early 30s and Merle about 40 (even though I know the actors are quite a bit older than that). I figured Shane, Rick, Lori, Carol to all be mid-late 30s. I know when Carol grows her hair longer there are greys in it, but I find her face very beautiful and youthful. I think Lauren Cohen can pull off young 20s when she is fresh faced on the show, but when you see her done up for the red carpet or interviews she looks a lot more mature. 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

With the new season coming and having several fleshed out and strong female character, feel bad for Laurie Holden.

The actress got the shit end of the stick from the previous Show runner.

[editorgrrl]

From S05.E05: Self Help

I can't believe they made Maggie even blander than she already was last season. Its like the show has a women with agency quota they same way they do with black men.

 

Exactly! In this episode Rosita explains the firetruck's air intake system and Tara suggests finding bicycles. But Maggie's a grinning lemming, and Ellen gets herself & her two kids killed rather than talk to Abraham. (Or commits suicide by walker? Her motivations were unclear.)

 

Edited to add another intelligent thing Rosita said during this episode: "Maybe we always wind up stopping because we never start at 100%." Abraham's relentless, sharklike imperative to always keep moving (which we learn is just his coping mechanism to avoid dealing with the death of his wife and children*) is counterproductive. The human body needs to rest. 

 

But Abraham pushes his agenda, and Rosita backs down, saying they'll sweep (for supplies) as they go.

 

*Everyone is steeped in denial this episode. Including Maggie, fantasizing that everyone else (including Daryl, Carol, and even Beth) is road-tripping right behind them.

Edited November 10, 2014 by editorgrrl

[Spartan Girl]

And now we've got Abraham's wife, who pulled a total Lori by turning on her husband when he killed the grocery people who were probably attacking/threatening the family, left and took the kids practically to their deaths.

 

Man, the writers must have issues with women.  Michonne is practically the only female character I consistently like on this show.

[Nashville]

From S05.E05: Self Help

 

Exactly! In this episode Rosita explains the firetruck's air intake system and Tara suggests finding bicycles. But Maggie's a grinning lemming, and Ellen gets herself & her two kids killed rather than talk to Abraham. (Or commits suicide by walker? Her motivations were unclear.)

 

In this episode, Tara's stock with me went up about 20%; Rosita's, about 200%.  Rosita has some depths of knowledge which haven't been explored yet (hell, I didn't know a fire engine's air intake was on the roof - did you?), plus she apparently serves as their resident medic.

Maggie?  Not so much.  She's admirably efficient at spiking a walker in the head, but so is everybody else EXCEPT EUGENE OF COURSE.  Nothing to distinguish her from your standard issue redshirt, other than whispering to Glenn in the night.

[mightysparrow]

The writers seem to be a bigger threat to Michonne.  She can handle walkers.  Michonne won't be in Sunday's episode and it looks like she's going to be left at the church with the kids while the rest (including Tyreese) go off to fight.  I haven't heard if she'll be flipping pancakes and singing spirituals but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

I'm not entirely sure what the writers were thinking this season.  Did they think that in order to make certain characters look good, they had to tear down other characters?  Did they think that pushing Danai in the background would change the fact that she's one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) actors on the show?  It's not working for me; it's just REALLY pissing me off. 

 

What's especially irritating is I haven't heard about a bottle episode for Michonne.  What the fuck's up with that?  Not only is she one of the most important characters on the tv show, she's one of the most important comic book characters. 

 

I suppose it could be worse.  In the tiny glimpses we've had of Michonne, at least she's still MICHONNE.  I don't recognize Maggie.  I mentioned in another thread that I thought Maggie might be self-medicating in order to deal with all the horror she's been through and that theory is making more and more sense.  It would explain her lying down in a street full of walkers when Sasha and Bob left her alone.  That wasn't Maggie.  And, most importantly, it would explain Maggie's inability to mourn her father or remember her sister.  If she's taking drugs to mask the pain, then her walking around with that Stepford Wife smile and telling Eugene Bible stories out of the blue makes sense.

 

I miss Michonne and Maggie so much.  This season has been an almost total waste for me because these two formerly strong, vital characters have been sidelined, especially when the replacements aren't worth it, in my opinion.

[editorgrrl]

From S05.E05: Self Help

After the show's utterly abysmal portrayal of women in the first two seasons where they were mostly relegated to child care, dishes, and laundry, isn't it fascinating that we now have two full-grown, able-bodied men who are apparently too inept to take care of themselves [Eugene & Gabriel], and a third who won't [Tyreese]?  When they get bored around the campfire, they can now have their own re-enactment of Three Men and a Baby.  It's quite a role reversal.

 

I hope Gabriel & Eugene replace Carole & Beth as Judith's babysitters. But I don't think Rick'll trust Gabriel with his child.

[Mu Shu]

I am up to my eyeballs over the constant rape meme. Enough already. Must every female be threatened with sex abuse?

[ghoulina]

The only female character I think the show is doing a disservice to is Maggie. Maggie has never been my favorite, but I liked her. Right now her complete refusal to even utter her missing sister's name is making me roll my eyes in contempt every time she opens her mouth. 

 

But overall, I still don't think the show is making the women look any worse than the men. Eugene has said/done some pretty idiotic things and half the viewers seem to find Glenn about as exciting as some melba toast. 

 

I would definitely like to see more Michonne, but all the time we haven't been seeing her we also haven't been seeing Carl, Rick, Tyrese, Sasha, etc. 

[Pete Martell]

I am up to my eyeballs over the constant rape meme. Enough already. Must every female be threatened with sex abuse?

 

I'm not sure it's been every woman. Beth and Maggie were sexually assaulted. Joe's group talked about wanting to rape Michonne. Sasha, Tara, Rosita and Carol haven't been threatened or sexually assaulted, from what I remember.

 

It's an overused, ugly writing choice, and I think the show didn't do a good job of dealing with the assault on Abraham's wife and daughter, but I'd say TWD uses it far less than many dystopian works of fiction.

[kikismom]

The writers seem to be a bigger threat to Michonne.  She can handle walkers.  Michonne won't be in Sunday's episode and it looks like she's going to be left at the church with the kids while the rest (including Tyreese) go off to fight.  I haven't heard if she'll be flipping pancakes and singing spirituals but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

I'm not entirely sure what the writers were thinking this season.  Did they think that in order to make certain characters look good, they had to tear down other characters? 

It would surprise me to see her flipping pancakes and singing spirituals. The closest Michonne has come to preparing a meal is heating a can of something over  campfire. I've seen Maggie, Carol, Beth, Laurie, and even Dale standing over the skillet or paring vegetables but never has Michonne been portrayed as doing anything domestic. (She rinsed out her own shirt once, but that's pushing it.) And singing has been confined to Beth; which seems to be more than enough for the viewers.

When Michonne isn't taking out walkers, she's helped out around the prison, gone on runs, helped the guys dispose of the dead, come up with games. She isn't doing servant work.

To me, tearing someone down is deliberately making them look bad. From time to time some characters get more storyline, but it hasn't involved insulting others. Sometimes it's insulting to themselves: Shane for instance.

Michonne had flashback exposition to her life before the ZA, and many different scenes in Woodbury, with the governor, or alone. We still haven't seen that with several other people in the group.

I don't know why they are doing it this way, but it cycles around to one character, and many of the others aren't getting screentime.

 

I don't think Maggie has access to drugs but she sure does seem anesthetized. I feel like the actors LC and SY should be very worried that the writers have no more use for their characters. That Samson story was one of the loopiest, least likely scenes I've seen not just from Maggie but on this show in 5 seasons.

[Pete Martell]

And now we've got Abraham's wife, who pulled a total Lori by turning on her husband when he killed the grocery people who were probably attacking/threatening the family, left and took the kids practically to their deaths.

 

Man, the writers must have issues with women.  Michonne is practically the only female character I consistently like on this show.

 

For me some of the reactions to this say more about viewers than the writing. His wife was traumatized. She'd been gang raped. Her daughter had been gang raped. Her son had been forced to watch. She then saw her husband acting as an animal. How could she trust any man? How could she trust him?

 

I don't see how this is comparable to Lori in any way. Lori's problems with Rick were totally different. Abraham's wife wasn't stuck in a bad marriage. She wasn't trying to punish Abraham or turn on him. She was terrified and horribly scarred. She acted on impulse in a world she didn't understand, and she paid the ultimate price. 

 

I think the writing for women is much, much better than it was in the first two seasons, even in the third season. I think they have a better group of female characters than almost any other show on TV today. Even shows that get more praise for "awesome" female characters, like Game of Thrones, have visibly struggled in recent seasons with how to portray women beyond tired tropes.

 

Carol, Michonne, Beth, Sasha, Tara, even Maggie (who hasn't had good writing as of late) and Rosita - to me it's a strong, strong female cast. Frankly they're the main reason I stay involved, as on the men's side I mostly just care about Rick, Glenn, and Carl, and then Tyreese.

I don't think Maggie has access to drugs but she sure does seem anesthetized. I feel like the actors LC and SY should be very worried that the writers have no more use for their characters. That Samson story was one of the loopiest, least likely scenes I've seen not just from Maggie but on this show in 5 seasons.

 

Putting Glenn and Maggie in the DC story seems like a hint they may have more plans. I think seasons 3 or 4 were when I most wondered what they were going to do with Glenn and Maggie.