The Winchesters Anticipation

[Nick24]

35 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

My beef with the Series Finale is not at all that Dean died but how he died. Randomely taken out as soon as Chuck was gone - we all know what that impies, in the most humiliating manner possible,

More than that, this way was also repetitive. They already used rusty nail on Cas in 4.16 On The Head Of A Pin, when Alistair put him on it. This makes that ending even more insulting, because they didn't even bother to make up something different, just copy/paste.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Nick24

[tessathereaper]

16 hours ago, Lastcall said:

He's also said the only reason he was hunting was because of Dean (which is proven in the finale). But what Sam wanted doesn't matter, it's what Jared wanted in the finale and I think he liked the symmetry. In the end Sam got to live a normal life and raise a super son that was probably the best of Sam and Dean.

I could be wrong about Jared wanting to continue the show. Dabb was desperate for a spin off and when Jared learned about the ending it was when he was planning on retiring for acting. I could see him thinking about producing a Sam's Dean show with Dabb and maybe they were keeping that in their back pocket. He just never figured Jensen would do a show and beat him to the punch that quick. It could add to the fear that ruining the finale would ruin the son show somehow.

haha Good, I hope so.  I hate that kid(not the actor, nothing to do with the actor).  Literary symmetry doesn't necessarily mean "exactly the same thing".  Even if the opposite happens it's still symmetrical - the symmetry of say Dean expecting to die early in the first season as compared to Dean looking for living for years to come is still symmetry.  Or if Sam had died, Dean being unwilling to live with Sam dead(as opposed to not being able to live without him) as compared to Dean accepting it and still living a fullfilling life, that also would have been symmetry.  If you'd seen the first couple episodes and then the finale, and that's it, the characters would have shown zero growth or experience, it would be like "yeah that makes sense" but only because you don't know about the 15 seasons worth of episodes in between..  Maybe it made some sort of sense for where the characters were in Season 1 but it didn't for Season 15.

2 hours ago, Nick24 said:

I have been thinking about the demons in the trailer. Of course, they can create an independent SL. But they also might tie this up with Azazel and his plans somehow or even with Abaddon. I remember, we were told in 9.17 Mother's Little Helper, that Abaddon had factories for turning human souls into demons all over the world. Maybe one of those factories was in Laurence. This would explain the connection with Henry and the MoL, because Henry had visited one factory, where Abaddon possessed Josie. I guess this could open some interesting opportunities for the story.

You know that's an interesting idea, we could potentially see them.

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Honest question without any subtext: why people who are not going to watch the show and who are not interested in it are spending their time on talking about it?

No one outside Mr Kripke knows, what Swan Song would have looked like as an actual series finale. Mr Kripke didn't even write the story for 5.22

As I recall Kripke's original plans for Swan Song was that BOTH brothers end up trapped in the cage as their respective angel vessels.  There was no happy ending for anyone.  BUT it did actually leave the door open to potential sequels, you know somehow the Winchesters figure a way out of their dilemna, or someone else does and gets them out, that sort of thing. 

[Nick24]

15 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

  If you'd seen the first couple episodes and then the finale, and that's it, the characters would have shown zero growth or experience, it would be like "yeah that makes sense" but only because you don't know about the 15 seasons worth of episodes in between..  Maybe it made some sort of sense for where the characters were in Season 1 but it didn't for Season 15.

Definitely! You can actually just watch the Pilot, then 15.20 and not to even bother to watch 325 episodes in between.

11 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

As I recall Kripke's original plans for Swan Song was that BOTH brothers end up trapped in the cage as their respective angel vessels.  There was no happy ending for anyone.  BUT it did actually leave the door open to potential sequels, you know somehow the Winchesters figure a way out of their dilemna, or someone else does and gets them out, that sort of thing. 

I guess this is because Kripke did not want to destroy SPNverse 

[Bergamot]

On 5/22/2022 at 3:05 PM, ahrtee said:

I also don't mind John being a nice, sweet guy here, as opposed to the later John.  After all, both John and Mary were extremely likeable in both time travel episodes, (and Mary even mentioned that, despite the war and everything he'd been through, John still believed in good things.)  That might be an interesting part of the show...watching foreshadowing of the scarred characters they would become later (even if they were mind-wiped; the potential was there in their character.)

On 5/23/2022 at 8:35 AM, Aithne said:

John is a good person who got real messed up by his circumstances, and that's the tragedy of him as a father. It loses some resonance if he was never a decent person to start with. 

On 5/23/2022 at 1:30 PM, tessathereaper said:

I hate John, I mean I hate John post Mary's death, he was an abusive, he took a bad situation for his kids and made it worse, but John before that, the John we saw in In The Beginning and The Song Remains the Same, he was a sweet guy.  I don't mind seeing the John before he became what he was.

This is very interesting to me to think about! For me it's part of what makes John a complex and fascinating character, that we get to see him as a young man who is decent and sweet, but we also see him as an embittered older man whose choices did enormous damage to his sons.

I don't know how much foreshadowing we might see in the prequel, but it is an important part of the story of the Winchesters. Because it is not just a story about angels and demons scheming and interfering in the lives of this family. It is a story about human beings, and who they were as people, and the choices they made, and what happened as a result. It is not just a story about supernatural evil, it is a story about a HUMAN tragedy. That's what made the show work, in my opinion.

These thoughts could also apply to Mary -- I remember her finally admitting to Dean that she was a "hard and closed-off" person. What caused her to be the person she was? What about the choices that she would later regret?

Going back to John, I was thinking about how I didn't even recognize the John that was brought through time in the 300th episode "Lebanon" (written of course by Andrew Dabb.) As I said at the time, John was suddenly bizarrely all calm and supportive and understanding, instead of being the John we actually had seen him become. John of course was not just a two-dimensional evil villain, but he was without a doubt impatient, bullheaded, bad-tempered, rigid, secretive and obsessive. Were these qualities that were always a part of his character? Was the potential always there, as @ahrtee says?

There is an interesting moment in "The Song Remains the Same", where a young John, who is very angry, demands to be allowed to draw the angel-banishing sigil to protect them from Anna.  "I don't care what it is, where does it go?" he says curtly. "I am not useless; I can draw a damn sigil." And when Dean tells him to let him do it instead, because it needs to be drawn in human blood, John immediately picks up a knife and slices open his hand in order to start drawing. And Dean laughs a little and says, "All of a sudden, you ... you really remind me of my dad." I think it was kind of a telling moment in regard to John's character.

10 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Edited May 26, 2022 by Bergamot

[tessathereaper]

On 5/25/2022 at 10:41 AM, MAK said:

Why does no one ever ask the question of why Jensen wasn't talking to Jared about a prequel/sequel/whatever when SPN was ending?

According to Jared, he started thinking about Walker during SPN S14. Jensen had talks with WB about his future during hiatus between S14 and S15. The series was picked up even before SPN S15 started shooting. If he really wanted a part of SPN legacy, he would have been talking to Kripke himself, with or without Jensen. He obviously never did. So saying that Jensen "latching" on to it is wrong. Is Jared only interested because Jensen is? If Jensen hadn't done anything, would Jared have done anything SPN related? He seemed pretty intomthr Walker story even back then.

Supposedly idea for prequel didn't happen until COVID lockdown, when he discussed it with Danneel. He could have easily discussed it with Jared instead. They could have formed their own company. Obviously, at least one of them didn't want to. 

Isn't it possible that Jensen had mentioned continuing SPN to Jared, and Jared didn't show any interest? So Jensen went ahead on his own. And why not? If you mention a project to your best friend, they show zero interest or enthusiasm, why can't you do it without them? They really have no reason to get angry for "excluding" them.

Jared seemed pretty determined to shed "Sam Winchester" after S15. He kept saying he didn't want to work in front of the camera anymore. He changed his mind or his mind was changed, all good. His choice.

Throughout conventions, interviews, etc. it was always Jensen who showed more interest in keeping the SPN legacy. Jared pretty much talked about it like "just a job." A very long-term, job and a special character, but a job nevertheless. 

Also, yes SPN was what it was because of Jensen and Jared. If one of the brothers had been killed off, the show would lasted maybe one more season before ending. But The Winchesters isn't SPN. It just has the same mythology. It's wrong to compare SPN with it. 

I've always felt like this happened.  Jensen possibly broached the subject of an SPN spinoff(and he was constantly talking about it during the interviews for the finale episodes, how he wanted more, etc) and Jared was so caught up in Walker and his new thing, he even called it his passion project in a way SPN never was in at least one interview, that he kind of blew it off in a well "yeah sure maybe some day" kind of way.  I mean The Winchesters may have come as a surprise but IMO the fact that Jensen used his new production company to make an SPN show didn't actually seem to be that big a shock to most Jensen fans I know precisely because he was talking about it all the time in interviews.  

In which case it's pretty easy to see why he'd go his own way without him, maybe figuring "Well once I get all the work done of getting the rights, getting it all in place, etc, I'll tell him and maybe he'll be more excited about being part of it, but I'll do it in such a way that if he doesn't want to do it, the show can still work".

I really think he was just planning on it being a surprise, a nice surprise for Jared, but then the leak happened when they'd only just tied up the rights and gotten permission to write a script.

The leak happened as soon as they had reached the first step in the actual official creative process.  Everything prior to that was just business, getting the rights to characters, setting up financing, etc.  At that point the show was purely hypothetical, all of the previous work is basically for nothing if the network says "nope we don't authorize a first script to look at to potentially developing into a pilot".  

More likely than not Jensen was planning on telling Jared very soon after that, when he had a couple hours of downtime to really talk to him about their ideas, etc, had the leak not happened. Jensen has said as much, he wanted to get all that in place and then tell Jared and find out what he wanted his involvement to be, if any.  No just because Jared played a character does not mean he therefore gets a stake in OTHER people's creative projects in the universe.  

As for Robbie's involvement, Et Tu Brute is a bit much when at most Robbie would have been a writer on Walker doing a few episodes a year, which doesn't exactly seem to be on a subject matter where his interests lie anyway(nearly all his writing is in genre whether TV show or comic book).  Robbie has a right to take any job he wants, it's not disloyal to want to work on something that interests you.  And we don't even know if that is the case, there is no particular reason to believe Robbie was asked to write for Walker but again, if he had been, why would he want to?  There is nothing about the premise that would appear to be in the areas of his interest.   Does that therefore mean he can't work on any other projects with any other SPN people?

Edited May 26, 2022 by tessathereaper

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

And I'm going to give Jared a lot of credit (more that he'll ever get here) that he's being very supportive of Jensen's efforts now that they've hashed out the dispute over Jared being blindsided and shut out.

I will respond to this in Bitch/Jerk so we don't get off topic here. 

[MAK]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

I don't know how much foreshadowing we might see in the prequel, but it is an important part of the story of the Winchesters. Because it is not just a story about angels and demons scheming and interfering in the lives of this family. It is a story about human beings, and who they were as people, and the choices they made, and what happened as a result. It is not just a story about supernatural evil, it is a story about a HUMAN tragedy. That's what made the show work, in my opinion.

This is one of the reasons I will definitely give the prequel a chance. 

For me, it's the characters, then plot, that keep me interested in a show. Both John and Mary have layers. Neither are two dimensional, regardless of what Dabb did. 

How long would a straight up MOTW show have lasted if Dean and Sam were just normal brothers?

[Lastcall]

The prequel is going to live or die on the pilot. I am still worried that Dean in the trailer was a pr stunt and he will just be telling stories in heaven. If it starts with a How I met your Mother POV and Charlie Bradbury doing her adorkable schtick, I'll be upset. If they completely botch John, then I'm out entirely. As long as the explanation on how this show is canon is even somewhat reasonable then I'm onboard as long as they don't ruin John and Dean. 

It looks like Jensen is trying to recreate the Kripke/Singer/Manners dynamic with Robbie and Glen. If Drake and Meg have the same chemistry that J2 had (not talking romance) then this show has a great chance. Though, it could all be academic depending on who buys the CW and what they want. 

[Casseiopeia]

6 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Charlie Bradbury doing her adorkable schtick

I was thinking more obnoxious, self centered Claire. 

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

And I'm going to give Jared a lot of credit (more that he'll ever get here) that he's being very supportive of Jensen's efforts now that they've hashed out the dispute over Jared being blindsided and shut out.

If the couple generic, bare-minimum tweets are what you're calling 'very supportive', we have very different definitions of supportive. It's only in this last podcast that he even attempted to ameliorate things, which comes about a year too late.

I wonder how you feel about Jared, by his own admission, conceiving the idea for Walker with Jensen in mind for the lead, then keeping it for himself when he decided he loved the character too much to give up (or perhaps when no other offers were forthcoming)?

Edited May 26, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

43 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

The prequel is going to live or die on the pilot. I am still worried that Dean in the trailer was a pr stunt and he will just be telling stories in heaven. If it starts with a How I met your Mother POV and Charlie Bradbury doing her adorkable schtick, I'll be upset. If they completely botch John, then I'm out entirely. As long as the explanation on how this show is canon is even somewhat reasonable then I'm onboard as long as they don't ruin John and Dean. 

It looks like Jensen is trying to recreate the Kripke/Singer/Manners dynamic with Robbie and Glen. If Drake and Meg have the same chemistry that J2 had (not talking romance) then this show has a great chance. Though, it could all be academic depending on who buys the CW and what they want. 

If the CW is bought and the owner has no interest in scripted shows in general or at least the shows the CW airs, then either the studio's respective  streaming services pick up the shows or they will all come to an end. No way any of the big networks would take them and wild card Netflix can't spend anymore like they did before.

A lot of ifs for the future. But that is the buisness.

[gonzosgirrl]

47 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

The prequel is going to live or die on the pilot. I am still worried that Dean in the trailer was a pr stunt and he will just be telling stories in heaven.

Dean is the narrative. By definition, he's telling the story. I don't think anybody expects him to be on screen in every episode, and there is nothing wrong with 'using' his face to get eyeballs on the pilot. It's just good sense.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

The prequel is going to live or die on the pilot. I am still worried that Dean in the trailer was a pr stunt and he will just be telling stories in heaven. If it starts with a How I met your Mother POV and Charlie Bradbury doing her adorkable schtick, I'll be upset. If they completely botch John, then I'm out entirely. As long as the explanation on how this show is canon is even somewhat reasonable then I'm onboard as long as they don't ruin John and Dean. 

It looks like Jensen is trying to recreate the Kripke/Singer/Manners dynamic with Robbie and Glen. If Drake and Meg have the same chemistry that J2 had (not talking romance) then this show has a great chance. Though, it could all be academic depending on who buys the CW and what they want. 

Personally, I am not waiting from the Pilot too many explanations to be able to decide ''live or die''. I guess they could give some hints, where they are going but still keep some mystery.

IMO Now the biggest responsibility is on Robbie Thompson. If he organizes decent storytelling, the prequel will live.

[Lastcall]

38 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If the CW is bought and the owner has no interest in scripted shows in general or at least the shows the CW airs, then either the studio's respective  streaming services pick up the shows or they will all come to an end. No way any of the big networks would take them and wild card Netflix can't spend anymore like they did before.

A lot of ifs for the future. But that is the buisness.

There are positives for even getting one season. Jensen and Robbie are motivated to get as many stories they feel they had to tell in the first season since there is no guarantee for a future since ratings now matter. That includes young bobby and rufus (which I think he was alluding to at the CW upfronts). Also, Pedowitz will let Jensen know if it is getting renewed or not ahead of time so Jensen and Robbie can complete the story in one season if they have to. 

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean is the narrative. By definition, he's telling the story. I don't think anybody expects him to be on screen in every episode, and there is nothing wrong with 'using' his face to get eyeballs on the pilot. It's just good sense.

The problem is many didn't expect to see Jensen on screen at all and definitely didn't think he would be on a mission. All I'm hoping for is Jensen on screen at the beginning of the pilot, explaining the set up and that he is on a mission. After that, narration in any form (live or voice) for a minute or two each ep, dropping little bits about the mission, commenting about the true history he is discovering. When the show ends, Dean has what he needed and has completed his mission. 

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

As I recall Kripke's original plans for Swan Song was that BOTH brothers end up trapped in the cage as their respective angel vessels.  There was no happy ending for anyone.  BUT it did actually leave the door open to potential sequels, you know somehow the Winchesters figure a way out of their dilemna, or someone else does and gets them out, that sort of thing. 

I actually would have liked that.

Do I think Winchesters will change the SPN Finale? Depends on how long it goes on for. As a comics reader I know Canon is tissue thin...thinks change constantly and sometimes they change so much they go back around.

If I like The Winchesters, I'll keep watching.  If it makes me not hate the SPN finale, great...at this point I just want something to make me forget it. 

The thing for The Winchesters is it opens up a ton for cameos from SPN characters dead/alive/in the past, which can be fun. The most important thing is I have to love John and Mary AND John/Mary. Now, I know many hated John but, man that 300th episode, with JDM and the John/Mary reunion was so good. So they really need to sell me on these wacky kids. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Morrigan2575

[gonzosgirrl]

Somebody remind me: was it ever established in canon when John and Bobby met? Or, if they met after Mary's death, did he know any of the Campbell's prior to that? Seems if they were a 'famous' hunting family, he would have at least heard of them.

[Nick24]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Somebody remind me: was it ever established in canon when John and Bobby met? 

IIRC it wasn't

[Nick24]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 Or, if they met after Mary's death, did he know any of the Campbell's prior to that? 

IIRC We were never told about this. It might be either way I guess.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If the CW is bought and the owner has no interest in scripted shows in general or at least the shows the CW airs, then either the studio's respective  streaming services pick up the shows or they will all come to an end. No way any of the big networks would take them and wild card Netflix can't spend anymore like they did before.

A lot of ifs for the future. But that is the buisness.

I could see HBO picking it up. Granted it's not DC content. 

I follow JMS on Twitter and he's been talking positively about B5 getting made on The CW or whatever it's called after it's sold. I guess we'll see what the future brings.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Morrigan2575

[Lastcall]

2 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Personally, I am not waiting from the Pilot too many explanations to be able to decide ''live or die''. I guess they could give some hints, where they are going but still keep some mystery.

IMO Now the biggest responsibility is on Robbie Thompson. If he organizes decent storytelling, the prequel will live.

What I mean by live or die is I have seen way more negativity from the trailer reactions and comments then I was expecting but most of them say they will give the pilot a shot. The pilot has that chance to win over the fans with concerns, old fans who want to see if it's any good and casual fans who are just curious. The pilot has to win over as many of those people as possible. The drop off after the first episode is what will make or break the show. If it can stay up high enough to compete with Walker, Flash and Superman/Lois it should be renewed. If it falls to charmed, legacies, Naomi levels then it is one and done. 

[Nick24]

2 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

What I mean by live or die is I have seen way more negativity from the trailer reactions and comments then I was expecting but most of them say they will give the pilot a shot. The pilot has that chance to win over the fans with concerns, old fans who want to see if it's any good and casual fans who are just curious. The pilot has to win over as many of those people as possible. The drop off after the first episode is what will make or break the show. If it can stay up high enough to compete with Walker, Flash and Superman/Lois it should be renewed. If it falls to charmed, legacies, Naomi levels then it is one and done. 

Oh, apparently I misunderstood you. Thank you for clarifying :)

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Somebody remind me: was it ever established in canon when John and Bobby met? Or, if they met after Mary's death, did he know any of the Campbell's prior to that? Seems if they were a 'famous' hunting family, he would have at least heard of them.

We were never shown/told that John knew about the Campbells. Sam found out that most/all of Mary's family died in early S3 from Ruby, so they may have been long gone. As far as Bobby was concerned we saw his memories of Dean - maybe about 10-12 - playing catch instead of doing target practice. So that would say John knew Bobby about six years or so after he started hunting. 

[DeeDee79]

9 hours ago, Lastcall said:

I don't think if Kripke had his true ending that Dean would have an apple pie life. I always heard the plan was Sam and Dean ending up trapped in the cage.

That's what I read also. Sam being trapped in the cage while Dean lives a regular life is what actually happened in the show, not how Kripke envisioned the ending.

[DeeDee79]

9 hours ago, Lastcall said:

I did go back to the Michael Rosenbaum podcast (IMO the best resource for behind the scenes Hollywood stories) and the only things more popular then the Jensen interviews were the two Smallville reunion interviews with Tom Welling and Kristin Kreuk. He was near double the Jared views and quadruple the Misha views. So I felt a little better. Jensen fans might be enough to make the prequel a success. I would just like it so much better if the entire SPN community united behind this show. 

The SPN community was and still is divided between who's the better brother/actor the minute there was an uptick in Dean/Jensen's popularity. It doesn't surprise me that it's still ongoing with the new show.

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, Nick24 said:

I guess this is because Kripke did not want to destroy SPNverse 

I think that it was actually because he had planned for the series to end after the conclusion of season 5. Sam and Dean would be known as the brothers that gave their lives to save the humanity which wouldn't be a bad legacy to leave behind IMO.  When the network wanted to renew they rewrote the ending and Sera Gamble took over. This is just what I've read but if I'm wrong, someone correct me please!

[Nick24]

10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I think that it was actually because he had planned for the series to end after the conclusion of season 5. Sam and Dean would be known as the brothers that gave their lives to save the humanity which wouldn't be a bad legacy to leave behind IMO.  When the network wanted to renew they rewrote the ending and Sera Gamble took over. This is just what I've read but if I'm wrong, someone correct me please!

I agree. This would be a great legacy. But I did not mind some additional seasons, because I was able to find things to enjoy in S6-11 and the Mark of Cain arc is my favorite mytharc of the entire show. IMO Season 11 could've given an opportunity to create strong series finale too, but unfortunately that never happened :(

Edited May 26, 2022 by Nick24

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I think that it was actually because he had planned for the series to end after the conclusion of season 5. Sam and Dean would be known as the brothers that gave their lives to save the humanity which wouldn't be a bad legacy to leave behind IMO.  When the network wanted to renew they rewrote the ending and Sera Gamble took over. This is just what I've read but if I'm wrong, someone correct me please!

One of the articles I read said that they got the renewal order at the end of season 4, so they had plenty of time to readjust course.  I suppose that's how Adam wound up in the story.  But it also mentioned that Kripke had pretty much checked out and left things to Sera.  

I know at the time I would have been pretty pissed if the story ended in season 5 with them both in the pit. I still wanted to learn more about them, and there certainly were many more worthwhile eps and arcs in the later years.   It's only because of the final however many dragging/horrible seasons that I/we? realized that ending with a bang might have been better than the whimper we got.  

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

We were never shown/told that John knew about the Campbells. Sam found out that most/all of Mary's family died in early S3 from Ruby, so they may have been long gone. As far as Bobby was concerned we saw his memories of Dean - maybe about 10-12 - playing catch instead of doing target practice. So that would say John knew Bobby about six years or so after he started hunting. 

I meant if Bobby knew the Campbells, not John. (Re-reading my post, I understand why that wasn't clear.) They were John's in laws, so I guess he knew them, if not the truth about them lol. 

I don't recall that memory of target practice with Dean being implied that it was their first encounter though. Either way, I wondered if Bobby knew (of) Mary, or the Campbell family and kept that from John. 

Re the bolded, we know that 'canon' was re-written in S6 though, when Grandpa got resurrected and suddenly there was a whole team of not-dead-yet family.

Edited May 27, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Lastcall said:

The drop off after the first episode is what will make or break the show. If it can stay up high enough to compete with Walker, Flash and Superman/Lois it should be renewed. If it falls to charmed, legacies, Naomi levels then it is one and done. 

Yes, unfortunately The Winchesters isn't going to get the free ride that Walker has (no pilot, early renewal, ratings being virtually meaningless) under the new regime at CW. It really will have to prove itself. It's already outnumbered the other new shows in social media followers by many multiples (on Instagram and Facebook). I'm sure there is a percentage that only followed so they can trash it at every chance before it even airs, but there are also a far larger number of fans actually excited to see where it goes.

[Nick24]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I meant if Bobby knew the Campbells, not John. They were John's in laws, so I guess he knew them, if not the truth about them lol. 

I don't recall that memory of target practice with Dean being implied that it was their first encounter though. Either way, I wondered if Bobby knew (of) Mary, or the Campbell family and kept that from John. 

He might've known, because in S13 we were told that AU!Booby knew AU!Mary in his universe somehow. It's not necessary to be true in our universe, but there is possibility.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Nick24

[Lastcall]

30 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yes, unfortunately The Winchesters isn't going to get the free ride that Walker has (no pilot, early renewal, ratings being virtually meaningless) under the new regime at CW. It really will have to prove itself. It's already outnumbered the other new shows in social media followers by many multiples (on Instagram and Facebook). I'm sure there is a percentage that only followed so they can trash it at every chance before it even airs, but there are also a far larger number of fans actually excited to see where it goes.

All the CW shows have had a free ride for at least 5 years before the merger. I thought it was just Supernatural that didn't have to put any effort in their scripts or try and please as wide a variety of fans as possible. All the shows existed in this complex system of netflix deals and foreign returns that made the ratings meaningless. I believe the constant threat of cancellation helped make the earlier seasons the best they could be because it could end at any season. This might motivate the prequel writers and make the stories better than they would be otherwise. 

Ideally, all the SPN fans would unite behind this show and realize it's success will lead to a SPN reunion or even several Sam and Dean short order seasons, but I see I was very naive. The "Inside of you" youtube channel was very encouraging though. The Jensen interviews had almost double the views compared to people subscribed to the show and they were viewed more than most stars from shows with strong vocal fanbases. Even fractionalized, the SPN fanbase might be big enough to keep the show on the air. 

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I meant if Bobby knew the Campbells, not John. (Re-reading my post, I understand why that wasn't clear.) They were John's in laws, so I guess he knew them, if not the truth about them lol. 

I don't recall that memory of target practice with Dean being implied that it was their first encounter though. Either way, I wondered if Bobby knew (of) Mary, or the Campbell family and kept that from John. 

Re the bolded, we know that 'canon' was re-written in S6 though, when Grandpa got resurrected and suddenly there was a whole team of not-dead-yet family.

I got the impression that the target practice memory was not the first time they'd stayed there.  Both kids seemed pretty comfortable with Bobby, and he seemed pretty sure that Dean needed time to "be a kid" (and told John that in no uncertain terms, as if it had come up before.)  

We don't really know when the Campbell family was wiped out, except that they were gone by the time Sam went looking for them in season 2?  But I would guess he'd only remember Mary's immediate family--uncles and aunts, maybe some cousins around her age.  I can't remember if Mary went to stay with a family member after her parents died, but I do remember that there was an uncle who paid to put up her tombstone, so at least 10 years later.  So Bobby may have heard of the "famous" Campbells but not connected Mary to them.  And as I recall, the team that Grandpa assembled was mostly younger cousins, around Sam and Dean's age; second- and third- and various-removed ones, so obviously not as well-known as their parents.  OTOH, Elkins had never heard of the Campbells either, so maybe Grandpa's boast of their importance was just self-importance, like being a Mayflower family that no one else knows or cares about unless you tell them.

[Nick24]

As for the Campbells discussion, it seemed like Grandpa Samuel went to Hell after Azazel killed him, because Crowley said:

Transcript from 6.20 The Man Who Would Be King:

Quote

CROWLEY: Fine. Then I know of a certain big, bald patriarch I can take off the bench.

It'd be cool, if they explain why he ended up in Hell in the prequel.

[Lastcall]

I was watching Wayward Winchester and he had a thought that made me rethink Dean's part in the trailer. I noticed the Samulet the first time I saw it. I was thinking it was a sign Dean wasn't in heaven but what if it's the opposite. The "now" part could be in heaven and for some reason, Dean's mission is to find Jack. Jack restored the world and maybe even the multiverse. Maybe something isn't right in Heaven or there was something wrong with Jack's restoration. The reason Dean needs to find the truth is it shows him what Jack has done or how to find him. The big plothole is the Samulet shouldn't be in Heaven. So, he could be back on earth to find him (but then Baby should be in Sam's garage).

[Nick24]

34 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I was watching Wayward Winchester and he had a thought that made me rethink Dean's part in the trailer. I noticed the Samulet the first time I saw it. I was thinking it was a sign Dean wasn't in heaven but what if it's the opposite. The "now" part could be in heaven and for some reason, Dean's mission is to find Jack. Jack restored the world and maybe even the multiverse. Maybe something isn't right in Heaven or there was something wrong with Jack's restoration. The reason Dean needs to find the truth is it shows him what Jack has done or how to find him. The big plothole is the Samulet shouldn't be in Heaven. So, he could be back on earth to find him (but then Baby should be in Sam's garage).

Interesting thoughts! I'd be happy to see Dean back on Earth, but I do not want the prequel to have anything to do with Jack or any other Dabb's character.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Lastcall said:

The "now" part could be in heaven and for some reason, Dean's mission is to find Jack. Jack restored the world and maybe even the multiverse. Maybe something isn't right in Heaven or there was something wrong with Jack's restoration.

I only want Jack on screen if the scene with him is Amara clawing her way out and disposing of Marti Stu Baby Jesus' body forever.

[Nick24]

Just now, Smad said:

I only want Jack on screen if the scene with him is Amara clawing her way out and disposing of Marti Stu Baby Jesus' body forever.

They could do this off screen I guess.

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't get the weight being given the amulet as 'proof' Dean isn't in Heaven. The car is in Heaven and yet also still in Sam's garage on Earth. 

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't get the weight being given the amulet as 'proof' Dean isn't in Heaven. The car is in Heaven and yet also still in Sam's garage on Earth. 

I also really don't remember what happened to the amulet after it turned up in Sam's pocket to "out" Chuck.  But then, seasons 12-15 were mostly deleted from my memory as soon as they ended.

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But then, seasons 12-15 were mostly deleted from my memory as soon as they ended.

With the exception of a few episodes this is a good thing.

[Nick24]

I don't know if that means anything, but in 15.20 Dean was wearing a dark red shirt in Heaven. In the trailer he has a blue one.

[Lastcall]

16 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't get the weight being given the amulet as 'proof' Dean isn't in Heaven. The car is in Heaven and yet also still in Sam's garage on Earth. 

My thinking is the Samulet is a real thing while baby is a Heaven construction. Doesn't mean Castiel couldn't just run it up to heaven. A Heaven version could be the same thing and it would only matter anyway if it was still turned on. I still think the Samulet is a clue. It could either be a reminder of Sam or it could be for finding Jack/Amara. Amara originally wanted to recreate the world so maybe she made some changes once merged with Jack.

It could also go another way. The mission could be between 5x19 and 5x20. Sam is missing or vanished, and Dean is searching for him. The Samulet could be a reminder or maybe it is keyed to finding Chuck. Chuck is still a major loose nuke. He has the knowledge; he knows where all the relics are buried, and he knows powerful people that could help him try and regain his power. The time travel could have just been the story Chuck wanted to tell at the time which is why Dean needs to know the real story. 

There is a big problem with that though, I don't think Sam will be in this at all and I don't think there will be any changes to Sam's story. Jared always had some input on the show and if someone else came along and told a Sam story without consulting him, I see why he would be upset. I don't see Jensen ever doing that to Jared so whatever "Now" is we shouldn't get anything other than a statement of fact like "I'm Dean Winchester, my brother is Sam". 

[gonzosgirrl]

On 5/30/2022 at 2:43 PM, Lastcall said:

My thinking is the Samulet is a real thing while baby is a Heaven construction.

Why though? It's an object, as is the car. If one can be there, so can the other. However time runs in Heaven, Dean was there for Sam's lifetime - no reason he couldn't have hung the amulet at any point during his endless drive.  Either way, it's just not an argument for Dean not telling this story from Heaven, IMO.

[Lastcall]

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Why though? It's an object, as is the car. If one can be there, so can the other. However time runs in Heaven, Dean was there for Sam's lifetime - no reason he couldn't have hung the amulet at any point during his endless drive.  Either way, it's just not an argument for Dean not telling this story from Heaven, IMO.

If they are going for a hunt for Jack or even Chuck, the Samulet would be there to help find him. They could go with the things in Heaven are as real as on earth. The main theory is the Samulet is there to glow when Dean is near God (if it wasn't turned off).

[Nick24]

4 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

If they are going for a hunt for Jack or even Chuck, the Samulet would be there to help find him. They could go with the things in Heaven are as real as on earth. The main theory is the Samulet is there to glow when Dean is near God (if it wasn't turned off).

Or it's just because Robbie Thompson imo loves that amulet.

[MAK]

A weird and and kind of out there take, but from what Jensen said (and didn't say) about Sam and the timeline, maybe the appearance of the Samulet is because Dean's mission is somehow about saving/finding Sam? That's why Sam is not involved?  

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, MAK said:

A weird and and kind of out there take, but from what Jensen said (and didn't say) about Sam and the timeline, maybe the appearance of the Samulet is because Dean's mission is somehow about saving/finding Sam? That's why Sam is not involved?  

It might make sense, but I definitely do not want another round of ''What's wrong with Sam?''. I want Dean to be a person on his own and have a mission, which would have some meaning outside Sam.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Nick24

[Casseiopeia]

22 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

It might make sense, but I definitely do not want another round of ''What's wrong with Sam?''. I want Dean to be a person on his own and have a mission, which would have some meaning outside Sam.

I don't know how a mission about their parents wouldn't have something to do with Sam. But I agree not another "what's wrong with Sam" story. I'm pretty sure wherever Dean is Sam isn't and isn't going to be. And since the series isn't really about Dean either he isn't going to be an active part of the story.

I would imagine Dean's part in the series is mainly a fill in the blanks (or present the questions) narrator.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Casseiopeia

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't know how a mission about their parents wouldn't have something to do with Sam.

I should have clarified. I do not want that mission to be all about Sam. Been there so many times. I am just not sure that I can take that kind of story anymore. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Nick24