S10.E02: Episode 2

[LGraves65]

23 hours ago, MartyQui said:

AML is still a really aggressive form of leukemia with a low 5 year survival rate…in the days before chemo it’s not unrealistic to think it could kill you in a month.  I felt so bad for the dad…the actor did a great job.

My great-aunt died a week after diagnosis of AML (in 1965).

[libgirl2]

On 10/11/2021 at 9:36 AM, JudyObscure said:

I never find that, "Please marry  woman X after I'm dead," romantic.  Nothing would squig me out more than to think the woman who died had been picturing us together and giving her approval.   I prefer a grieving period and then meeting, or running into, someone you hopefully hadn't been thinking sexy thoughts about while  first wife was still alive.

I had actually been picturing Trixie with the hospital owner.  Yes, he's older, but he respects Trixie and they fought well together. 

I have a friend who's engaged to a man who's late wife set up his dating profile before she passed away. She didn't want him to be alone. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by libgirl2

[caitmcg]

10 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes, as I said when I posted them, those statistics were the only ones I could find and I was hoping someone else had stats from Britain in the 60's.  They were just an example of poor women being able to find abortion providers today -- some people were saying that it was still much harder for them today and it didn't seem that way from the stats. 

In the US, the situation is more complicated than the overall stats suggest, because it varies so much by location. A number of states have erected barriers that surely make abortion access more difficult for poorer women, like limited locations (in Mississippi, for instance, there’s only one clinic in the entire state that offers surgical abortion care), waiting periods of 24 hours or more, etc. One must have the resources to travel and take the extra time, and so on. 

10 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I was just a little miffed at the show for trying to play to both sides at once.  There's something a little inconsistent about nuns outraged to discover abortions are going on (because it's a grave sin for which you'll burn in Hell for all eternity),  and literally in the next breath, outraged that poor women can't get them.

Trixie was the one expressing outrage over the disparities between wealthier and poorer women’s access to safe abortions, not Sister Julienne. SJ couldn’t not acknowledge the point (objective fact as it was), but I don’t think her conceding that women get abortions and shouldn’t be in mortal danger as a result constitutes advocacy.

[susannah]

4 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

At the end of the day, the bad person in this situation was not the dad, but the mom who cheated on the dad while he was away, working to support the family. 

I agree that the dad was not the bad guy, and his anger was realistic. I don't know as I would call the woman bad though. She made a big mistake, one time, people do, and it doesn't make them bad. Also, the show has depicted several times how valued sons were to men, even expecting the wife to keep having children until they had one, as in the case of the woman who died from the Pill...and it said in this show that the dad only ever wanted a son, though he seemed kind to his daughters. That the baby was a boy might have made all the difference in his decision to keep him.

[susannah]

4 hours ago, rlc said:

Trixie didn’t have an issue with abortion-

I think she did, and not only because it was illegal.

[EllaWycliffe]

7 minutes ago, susannah said:

I agree that the dad was not the bad guy, and his anger was realistic. I don't know as I would call the woman bad though. She made a big mistake, one time, people do, and it doesn't make them bad.

In the context of what happened, she is the bad faith actor in this tale. Yeah, I get that it's a mistake and and she's certainly not evil or all bad, but here's the reality. She cheated on her husband who by all standards seems like a good guy. Not only does she cheat but she actively plans to conceal her dishonesty by having the baby and giving it up before he returns home. She's a cheater and a liar and the show made the husband into the bad guy for not smiling and saying "Thanks for fucking around behind my back and now let me hug the bastard I have to pay for for the next eighteen years". She's the bad actor here. She's not a sixteen year old loaded with hormones, she's a married woman with two kids who wasn't raped. She actively cheated. Is she sorry she cheated and lied or is she sorry she got caught? I just don't like adultery dismissed so easily as a mistake when she made the decision to cheat. 

Now that doesn't make her an all around bad person, but in this context - she's the one who cheated yet the husband is being treated as the bad person in the equation for not instantly forgiving and embracing the situation with love and understanding. 

15 minutes ago, susannah said:

I think she did, and not only because it was illegal.

Agree. I think she understands why some women make the choice they make, but we'll never see a "Trixie contemplates aborting her baby" storyline". She seems, on a personal level, very into the sanctity of life. Respectful of the choices of others in that she's not glaring and judging "dirty whore" at them, but I couldn't see her doing it... She'd take it as a personal responsibility thing.

[susannah]

25 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

In the context of what happened, she is the bad faith actor in this tale. Yeah, I get that it's a mistake and and she's certainly not evil or all bad, but here's the reality. She cheated on her husband who by all standards seems like a good guy. Not only does she cheat but she actively plans to conceal her dishonesty by having the baby and giving it up before he returns home. She's a cheater and a liar and the show made the husband into the bad guy for not smiling and saying "Thanks for fucking around behind my back and now let me hug the bastard I have to pay for for the next eighteen years". She's the bad actor here. She's not a sixteen year old loaded with hormones, she's a married woman with two kids who wasn't raped. She actively cheated. Is she sorry she cheated and lied or is she sorry she got caught? I just don't like adultery dismissed so easily as a mistake when she made the decision to cheat. 

Now that doesn't make her an all around bad person, but in this context - she's the one who cheated yet the husband is being treated as the bad person in the equation for not instantly forgiving and embracing the situation with love and understanding. 

Agree. I think she understands why some women make the choice they make, but we'll never see a "Trixie contemplates aborting her baby" storyline". She seems, on a personal level, very into the sanctity of life. Respectful of the choices of others in that she's not glaring and judging "dirty whore" at them, but I couldn't see her doing it... She'd take it as a personal responsibility thing.

Very well said, and I agree that she was not only wrong in what she did, and as you said, she wasn't a teenager who got into trouble, but was dishonest as well. We don't know if she was sorry she cheated or because she got caught. Probably both. Do you think the husband was made out to be the bad guy because he was angry? I did wonder how he thought he could raise two kids on his own when he was at sea most of the year. In regard to Trixie, illegality aside, I agree that it would be really hard for someone whose career and passion is to bring babies alive into the world to support abortion in her heart, even though she understands why  women do it, and doesn't judge. Again, well said!

[EllaWycliffe]

23 minutes ago, susannah said:

Do you think the husband was made out to be the bad guy because he was angry?

To a point, yes. He's angry and suddenly the midwives are in his face. He walks into his house obviously wanting a happy homecoming and walks into a giant ugly mess and he's the bad guy for losing his temper over finding his wife pregnant by another man. 

[Sarah 103]

23 hours ago, DonnaMae said:

Maybe he hasn't been gone long enough for her to be so far along in her pregnancy.

That makes the most sense to me. We don't how much time elapsed between the affair/getting pregnant and when she had sex with her husband. 

[susannah]

52 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

That makes the most sense to me. We don't how much time elapsed between the affair/getting pregnant and when she had sex with her husband. 

She said she wasn't showing yet so it couldn't have been that long. However, the husband immediately knowing that the baby wasn't his doesn't match that timeframe.

[MissLucas]

Since the pill was mentioned in this discussion: the pill was not available to non-married women in the UK until 1967.

[susannah]

44 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Since the pill was mentioned in this discussion: the pill was not available to non-married women in the UK until 1967.

I was referring to a  previous show in which a married woman had three daughters and started on the pill without telling her husband, since he wanted her to keep having children until she had a son, no matter what she wanted. That she dared to try to take control of her life, and actually start a career she enjoyed, was punished by her death from a blood clot caused by the pill. I also remember Barbara trying to practice putting in her diaphragm and it kept popping around the room.. I don't think the show is at 1967 yet but I wonder how unmarried women trying to get it will go over. The nuns weren't happy when birth control was first given out at the clinic, for anyone.

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, susannah said:

She said she wasn't showing yet so it couldn't have been that long. However, the husband immediately knowing that the baby wasn't his doesn't match that timeframe.

Thank you! That is exactly what was confusing me about this plotline. The different parts of the timeline do not match up. 

[purist]

37 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

That is exactly what was confusing me about this plotline. The different parts of the timeline do not match up.

Perhaps something was cut from the episode screened in the US? It's a while since I saw it (in Australia), but I'm sure the dates made sense.

Edited October 13, 2021 by purist

[susannah]

3 minutes ago, purist said:

Perhaps something was cut from the episode screened in the US? It's a while since I saw it (in Australia), but I'm sure the dates made sense.

I have read comments about that in regard to other episodes, that there are cut bits in the US and/or UK airings. That would make sense, as it didn't the way it was, also, unless I missed something, Trixie's demanding to watch a surgery seemed out of the blue. So do the seasons in UK and Australia air a long time before US? I wonder why that is.

[purist]

10 minutes ago, susannah said:

So do the seasons in UK and Australia air a long time before US? I wonder why that is.

I don't know why the US airs the episodes so long after the UK and Australia. This season began back in April 2021. In Australia, it airs on Foxtel (pay TV) the same day as the UK, and then on the ABC (free-to-air) about a year later.

[susannah]

10 minutes ago, purist said:

I don't know why the US airs the episodes so long after the UK and Australia. This season began back in April 2021. In Australia, it airs on Foxtel (pay TV) the same day as the UK, and then on the ABC (free-to-air) about a year later.

I didn't know this! Is it because it's an English production, I wonder?

[libgirl2]

On 10/12/2021 at 1:35 PM, caitmcg said:

In the US, the situation is more complicated than the overall stats suggest, because it varies so much by location. A number of states have erected barriers that surely make abortion access more difficult for poorer women, like limited locations (in Mississippi, for instance, there’s only one clinic in the entire state that offers surgical abortion care), waiting periods of 24 hours or more, etc. One must have the resources to travel and take the extra time, and so on. 

Trixie was the one expressing outrage over the disparities between wealthier and poorer women’s access to safe abortions, not Sister Julienne. SJ couldn’t not acknowledge the point (objective fact as it was), but I don’t think her conceding that women get abortions and shouldn’t be in mortal danger as a result constitutes advocacy.

I think Trixie isn't necessarily advocating for abortion but I do think if it were legal and safe, while not liking it, she would actively fight against it. 

[libgirl2]

3 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I think Trixie isn't necessarily advocating for abortion but I do think if it were legal and safe, while not liking it, she would actively fight against it. 

I worded that wrong, it should say I do think if it were legal and safe, while not liking it, she would not actively fight against it. 

[MMEButterfly]

On 10/11/2021 at 2:59 PM, Haleth said:

I recall my aunt (married to an obgyn) saying that all a pregnant woman had to do was threaten to kill herself and an abortion would be performed. This was probably early 70s in a posh CT town. Yeah, the law was (and continues to be) no barrier for women of means. 

This was what I observed. I came from a family of doctors--no obgyns but family friends. A woman could threaten suicide or could be diagnosed with neurasthenia, or anemia. A D&C was prescribed. 

[kwnyc]

Quote

I think Trixie was more pissed about the inequality: rich women can control their reproduction safely while poor women risk their lives. 

Yes. One of the things about Poplar is still that there's a lot of abject poverty. While they are constructing a social safety net for health care and housing, we still haven't reached the point in England where anyone except a well-off, connected person could get an abortion. (Remember when Lady Edith's aunt [Downton Abbey] arranged for her to have an abortion? Though Edith went went on to have the baby.) And the midwives had to deal with the results of botched abortions.

They alluded to the possibility of abortion becoming legal in Great Britain (which it does the next year, I think), so this serves as a precursor to the social upheaval that will happen. And of course, the nuns of Nonnatus House (and probably the midwives) will probably not be able to refer a pregnant woman for an abortion. It remains to be seen where Dr. Turner comes down on the issue.

[EllaWycliffe]

12 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

It remains to be seen where Dr. Turner comes down on the issue.

Considering his hostility towards the Lady Emily clinic idea, and that he and Shelagh are very religious, I'm guessing he's a "no"

[proserpina65]

On 10/12/2021 at 2:52 PM, susannah said:

I think she did, and not only because it was illegal.

Pretty sure it was just the illegality and the unfair economic disparity of it.  Trixie's shown no particular animus towards the existence of abortion.  No, she isn't likely to ever have one herself, but that's not the same thing as disapproving of its necessity in certain circumstances.

On 10/12/2021 at 8:49 PM, purist said:

don't know why the US airs the episodes so long after the UK and Australia

Because public television has to purchase the episodes and it takes time to raise the money.

1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Considering his hostility towards the Lady Emily clinic idea, and that he and Shelagh are very religious, I'm guessing he's a "no"

He strikes me as a realist, so I think he would, albeit reluctantly.

[Rootbeer]

On 10/18/2021 at 4:34 PM, proserpina65 said:

Pretty sure it was just the illegality and the unfair economic disparity of it.  Trixie's shown no particular animus towards the existence of abortion.  No, she isn't likely to ever have one herself, but that's not the same thing as disapproving of its necessity in certain circumstances.

Because public television has to purchase the episodes and it takes time to raise the money.

He strikes me as a realist, so I think he would, albeit reluctantly.

The nuns at Nonnatus House are Church of England, not Roman Catholic.  The current position of the C of E is that they believe in 'principled opposition' to abortion but believe that there are some very limited and strict circumstances under which abortion could be preferable to other available alternatives. Most of all, the church expects all members to offer support and compassion to anyone facing pregnancy under difficult circumstances; whether the pregnant person chooses to continue the pregnancy or not.

Seems to be pretty consistent with what we've seen on the show.  The midwives, whether nuns or not, as well as Dr Turner; choose not to work in circumstances where they are being performed or to perform them but would provide any assistance needed should they be involved in the care of a woman who has had one.

I don't think that it is fundraising that determines when Call the Midwife is seen here in the US.  I think BBC chooses not to allow the series to be shown in other countries until after the season has finished in the UK.  There are a lot of American shows that air in the UK and, they, too, are delayed and shown in the US first.  I think it is just a business decision on the part of the network to keep the content exclusive for their audience for the first airing.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Rootbeer

[purist]

7 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

I think BBC chooses not to allow the series to be shown in other countries until after the season has finished in the UK.

But ... like I said upthread, in Australia we get it on pay TV the same day it airs in the UK.

[kwnyc]

Quote

in Australia we get it on pay TV the same day it airs in the UK.

...betcha the BBC's getting a cut of that...

[GiuliettaMasina]

On 10/11/2021 at 1:54 PM, JudyObscure said:

At one time I felt like CTM was skirting around the abortion issue.  I remember an unmarried teacher who got pregnant and had an abortion and one of the nuns got a lecture from Sister Julienne for having a slightly judgmental attitude.  Now all this shock at the very idea. 

I'm just not totally on board with Trixie's (the show's) assumption that rich women only had to say the word and their doctor would perform an abortion while poor women's doctors would not.  Once when I was about 30, I had what could be called a "rich white woman's doctor" who refused to even prescribe birth  control pills much less perform an abortion.   

On the other hand, I would have thought doctors who served in poor areas like Dr. Turner, would be more likely to understand the hardships surrounding unwanted pregnancy and be more likely to do the surgery for their patients.  Doctors were so paternalistic back then I can picture them telling a rich woman that she can afford the child so she should be ashamed to even mention termination.  I got shamed like that just for asking for the pill when I was 20 years old.

I've been looking for stats on this and only found that black women are five times more likely than white women to have an abortion and that fifty percent of people who get abortions are poor.  That doesn't sound to me like poor people are going without wanted abortions because of their income.

That's for the present. I can't find past statistics, but I'm just not going to take Trixie's word for it that it was a piece of cake for rich women to get abortions in the 1960's.  If nothing else, word of mouth about who would or wouldn't perform the procedure probably would have been easier to get wind of in Poplar than some fancy London suburb.

No need to take her word for it, history supports her.

On 10/11/2021 at 11:46 PM, Rootbeer said:

As stated on the show, it's access to safe abortion that is the difference.  Current statistics on abortion don't really apply to Britain in the mid 60's when the procedure was illegal but physicians in private practice were willing to perform them for paying patients and falsify their medical records.

One thing that wasn't very clear on the show is that there are two options for health care in Great Britain.  Everyone is eligible for the NHS or National Health Service which is government sponsored health care and what we see the midwives at Nonnatus House providing to the people of Poplar.  They are essentially government employees.  However, the other, fancy hospital with the private physicians was part of the private health care system which is essentially limited to those who can pay out of pocket for their health care.  That is why Sister Julienne was considering allowing their midwives to work at that hospital.  With private patients, paying cash for services, there would be a lucrative income stream available to help Nonnatus provide services to the poor that NHS payments couldn't cover.  So, the doctor at the private hospital was providing abortions to women who could afford to pay him and the hospital out of pocket for it under the guise of calling it a D&C.  The women of Poplar, not having that kind of money, paid Val's grandmother for the same services on the kitchen table above the pub.  That is the difference.  Women who could pay in cash had access to the safety provided by a real doctor and a real hospital as well as the cover story that that situation provided.

I presume your statistics are based on the US today which isn't really comparable to Britain prior to legalized abortion in the mid 60's.  While I agree that black women generally have abortions at a higher rate than white women, I don't think it is 5 times higher from what I've read.  Access to safe and effective contraception in middle class vs poor women is part of the answer though.  Abortion overall costs a lot less than raising a child and. sadly, sometimes that is a big factor in the choice to end a pregnancy.

Exactly. Access to safe and effective contraception and the stability to use it as directed continue to be issues facing poor women.

On 10/12/2021 at 3:21 AM, JudyObscure said:

Yes, as I said when I posted them, those statistics were the only ones I could find and I was hoping someone else had stats from Britain in the 60's.  They were just an example of poor women being able to find abortion providers today -- some people were saying that it was still much harder for them today and it didn't seem that way from the stats. 

I don't agree that it's really very hard to access birth control.  If you can find a drug store you can get some sort of birth control. Barrier methods plus chemical provide excellent protection.  Just as an abortion is cheaper than raising a child, birth control is cheaper than an abortion.

I was just a little miffed at the show for trying to play to both sides at once.  There's something a little inconsistent about nuns outraged to discover abortions are going on (because it's a grave sin for which you'll burn in Hell for all eternity),  and literally in the next breath, outraged that poor women can't get them.

In the US, birth control requires a prescription, which requires access to health care (or the ability to access an overburdened free or low cost clinic), which requires a job that provides health insurance. It also needs to be taken at the exact same time every day or its efficacy is affected negatively. This can be hard to do if you are juggling shift work or "odd jobs" as many poor people are. It really is not as simple as finding a drug store.

There is nothing inconsistent with believing that abortion is a grave sin and also being upset that only poor people have to die for it. Also, they are Anglican not RC or American fundamentalist--not every religious denomination believes the same thing about abortion. American Protestants largely did not care about abortion until the 70s and even the Catholic history is not as solid as one might think. Also, people can believe in some parts of their religion's doctrine but not others. I'm not sure why we need these characters to act like fundamentalists to understand that they oppose abortion--they've literally shown their opposition in every abortion storyline on the show.

[OtterMommy]

Please remember that discussion in the episode threads should be focused on the episodes.  Once discussion moves away from the episode to "real world" discussion or personal anecadotes, it needs to move to the Small Talk thread.  Thanks!