Superman & Lois Unspoiled Speculation

[scarynikki12]

For all spoiler free spec.

[scarynikki12]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I wonder if Lois will end up working for the Smallville paper?

I would assume that Lois can easily work for The Daily Planet and be based out of Smallville. Ronan Farrow has been doing a ton of work during the pandemic and he's mentioned that a lot of it is just being on the phone or computer. In theory we should see Lois contact sources and other connections from the comfort of the Kent kitchen (or a home office). Since Morgan Edge owns the paper he may choose to fire her for moving away but, again, she's LOIS LANE. She should have every paper in the country vying for her skills.

Or she could start a blog, freelance, or write a book. Once she defeats Morgan Edge she'll have plenty of content.

[Trini]

A lot of people, including myself, are guessing that the other twin will get powers also. Makes sense; I mean, for drama, two hormonal teens with death lasers are better than one!

----

On a completely different note, I can already see the issues brought up by writer Nadria Tucker, it's not a great look that both antagonists for Superman and son are Black.

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, Trini said:

A lot of people, including myself, are guessing that the other twin will get powers also. Makes sense; I mean, for drama, two hormonal teens with death lasers are better than one!

----

On a completely different note, I can already see the issues brought up by writer Nadria Tucker, it's not a great look that both antagonists for Superman and son are Black.

FWIW, I have a more wait and see attitude. There's definitely the potential for problems. But there's also the potential for fully fleshed out characters who happen to be Black.

I would take a compelling, smart and worthy villainous Black Luthor -- particularly one who is authentically Black -- over a character like Smallville's Pete Ross, who is relatively poorly written and seems more a token. Same with Sean -- if they give him more to do than just be Whitney 2.0, I'm for it.

[Chicago Redshirt]

As for speculation, here's a theory or two:

Captain Luthor will somehow be behind or in cahoots with Morgan Edge. It seems too coincidental that Morgan has been moving against Superman's original hometown of Smallville and his current hometown of Metropolis at the same time that Luthor is moving against Superman. Also, laying off Clark from the Planet just doesn't make sense.  Maybe I'm bringing too much real world into this, but it seems like if layoffs are going to be a thing at the Daily Planet, Clark would basically be one of the last reporters to be let go. At least if this incarnation is anything like the Clarks that came before, he has gotten decades of scoops, he has had a line on Superman related news, and he has seniority. Plus, if he's not the number one reporter for the Planet, he's married to her and laying off him would likely tick her off. It could just be one of the things done just to facilitate "We're all moving to Smallville!" without much further thought. 

Kyle is going to go full-fledged rvillain. The love of Morgan Edge, jealousy over Clana are motivators, plus he likely is not going to be happy if/when Sarah ends up dating Jordan (which I'm pretty sure she will by the end of the season if not within four episodes).

Here's hoping that S&L handles its love triangles better than Smallville or the typical CW show. We already have Clark/Lois/Lana, Clark/Lana/Kyle, Jordan/Sarah/Sean set up. There presumably will be Jonathan/Metropolis girl/Smallville girl (perhaps Sarah, perhaps not), and possibly Jonathan/Jordan/Sarah. 

[ctlady]

Mr Ctlady is speculating that Lana's husband, Kyle, is this armored, alien nemesis.  He could've gotten back to earth and changed into his fireman's gear to show up at the bonfire explosion the way Clark did

[Chicago Redshirt]

49 minutes ago, ctlady said:

Mr Ctlady is speculating that Lana's husband, Kyle, is this armored, alien nemesis.  He could've gotten back to earth and changed into his fireman's gear to show up at the bonfire explosion the way Clark did

I think we are shown at the tail end of the pilot that the armored guy has a fortress of his own and is Captain Luthor, who is presumably distinct from Kyle. 

It could be that Captain Luthor has for some reason adopted the Kyle secret identity or vice versa. But that seems a stretch. Clearly, he and Lana have been together a while if they have this 14-ish year old girl. Kyle/Luthor would have been playing a pretty long con if he had been holding onto all this hatred for that long.  I guess it's possible that Captain Luthor could have replaced Kyle more recently. But again, that's a lot. 

I think it's more likely that Captain Luthor enlists Kyle in some nefarious scheme or another.

[Trini]

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

FWIW, I have a more wait and see attitude. There's definitely the potential for problems. But there's also the potential for fully fleshed out characters who happen to be Black.

I would take a compelling, smart and worthy villainous Black Luthor -- particularly one who is authentically Black -- over a character like Smallville's Pete Ross, who is relatively poorly written and seems more a token. Same with Sean -- if they give him more to do than just be Whitney 2.0, I'm for it.

Helbing's the showrunner; I'd lower expectations. Characters who happen to be Black - without the acknowledgement that Blackness should figure into their characterizations/stories and how it effects how they are viewed by the audience - is exactly Helbing's problem. Captain Luthor, as one of the main villains, will probably be fine. Less hope for Sean.

And we're past 'potential'; it's already a problem that the pilot reinforces the stereotype of Black men and boys as violent aggressors, then it's compounded by the fact that they're in opposition to the protagonists.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Trini
oy, grammar

[Affogato]

On 2/26/2021 at 6:11 PM, Trini said:

A lot of people, including myself, are guessing that the other twin will get powers also. Makes sense; I mean, for drama, two hormonal teens with death lasers are better than one!

----

On a completely different note, I can already see the issues brought up by writer Nadria Tucker, it's not a great look that both antagonists for Superman and son are Black.

I hope Jonathan doesn’t have powers. More interesting and he has been established as the leader in so many ways and Jordan’s protector.  Jonathan is like his Mom and Jordan like Clark ( and the heart of the story is always that Superman is Clarke, first and foremost). It creates an interesting dynamic if Jordan is the one with powers. Also Jonathan,  poor guy, would need to give up his passion, foorball. 
 

does anyone know what that piece of whatever is that jordan was handed is?  Kryptonite doesn’t make sense. 
 

Lois could be black (or Clarke)?but the characters came over from another show, right? You would lose that connection If you recast. Was Lana from another show?  Maybe just trying to add diversity where they can. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Affogato

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, Trini said:

Helbing's the showrunner; I'd lower expectations. Characters who happen to be Black - without the acknowledgement that Blackness should figure into their characterizations/stories and how it effects how they are viewed by the audience - is exactly Helbing's problem. Captain Luthor, as one of the main villains, will probably be fine. Less hope for Sean.

And we're past 'potential'; it's already a problem that the pilot reinforces the stereotype of Black men and boys as violent aggressors, then it's compounded by the fact that they're in opposition to the protagonists.

I am not familiar with Helbing in particular. But in so far as Arrowverse shows go, IMO Black characters have tended to be more toward the incidentally they are Black (Diggle and Curtis in Arrow, the Wests and Cecile in Flash, Jimmy and Kelly Olsen in Supergirl and Luke in Batwoman) and less toward the part of the spectrum where Blackness is an integral part of their identity/plot and character arcs/backstory (Ryan Hunter Batwoman and everyone on Black Lightning).

Seeing how more of the integrally Black characters are relatively newcomers, maybe a little optimism would otherwise be called for if you factor out the Black writer being let go?

I generally cut pilots a fair amount of slack because they are trying to establish so much, they don't have much time for nuance. And even when they do, some of it probably hasn't been figured out fully when the pilot has been written.

I think Sean was portrayed as somewhat reasonable for a teen boy. Who wouldn't become angry when they saw some strange kid make unwanted moves on his girlfriend? He may end up having an arc like Whitney in Smallville: start off the jealous jerk who makes life tougher for the hero but eventually develop a grudging respect and sorta-friendship.

54 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I hope Jonathan doesn’t have powers. More interesting and he has been established as the leader in so many ways and Jordan’s protector.  Jonathan is like his Mom and Jordan like Clark ( and the heart of the story is always that Superman is Clarke, first and foremost). It creates an interesting dynamic if Jordan is the one with powers. Also Jonathan,  poor guy, would need to give up his passion, foorball. 
 

does anyone know what that piece of whatever is that jordan was handed is?  Kryptonite doesn’t make sense. 
 

Lois could be black (or Clarke)?but the characters came over from another show, right? You would lose that connection If you recast. Was Lana from another show?  Maybe just trying to add diversity where they can. 

For my money, they are setting up Jonathan to be a chip off the old block of Superman (perfect, well-liked, natural leader, able to navigate in society with ease) and Jordan as a chip off the block of the traditional Clark persona (awkward and fumbling, underestimated by most people around him). Part of what they need to work on is showing where Lois is in all the raising of the kids and their personality traits (as well as the show in general).

In Smallville and various of the movies and I also want to say to a certain extent in the Arrowverse, Kryptonians have had crystals that have various technological functions. In Superman the Movie, Clark throws a crystal and it creates the Fortress of Solitude, for example. Crystals have also been inserted in terminals to activate programs.Typically these crystals have been clear; I want to say that we have seen a green crystal and Superman Returns had a black crystal. I can't remember seeing a red crystal before. But anyway, my best guess would be that the ship read Jordan's half-Kryptonian DNA and spat out a program to give him background about Krypton and his abilities. I suspect we will see it come into play as soon as Episode 2.

I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't see there being much likelihood that there could be a black Lois cast for a mainstream, non-alternate reality version of the Superman story. Not while Superman himself is white. The backlash that Iris/Candice Patton still get on the Flash is a fraction of what would happen if Lois -- a far more iconic character -- were to be portrayed by any non-White actress. Although Dean Cain, who portrayed Superman in Lois & Clark, was part Asian, I think the fanbase would lose it if a non-White actor portrayed Superman.

Lana in the Superman mythos has traditionally been a redhead. In Smallville, she was played by Kristin Kreuk, who is biracial (Asian and White). I am pretty sure that this is her first appearance in the Arrowverse, so they could have hypothetically cast an actress of any ethnicity if they'd really wanted.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

For my money, they are setting up Jonathan to be a chip off the old block of Superman (perfect, well-liked, natural leader, able to navigate in society with ease) and Jordan as a chip off the block of the traditional Clark persona (awkward and fumbling, underestimated by most people around him). Part of what they need to work on is showing where Lois is in all the raising of the kids and their personality traits (as well as the show in general).

I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't see there being much likelihood that there could be a black Lois cast for a mainstream, non-alternate reality version of the Superman story. 

You are right that Jonathan has the superman persona, i just think that is more Lois than Clark. If i think about it. But Superman has always been about parenting so I think  the family dynamics will become more obvious. 
I forgot about the crystals. 



 

[shapeshifter]

This morning on H&I TV I caught a 1953(!) episode of The Adventures of Superman, 2.2 "The Big Squeeze," in which:

Quote

A former convict has managed to keep his past buried beneath continuous community work and a constant devotion to his family, but a former colleague threatens to stir things up unless he helps with the robbery of his employers.

It was a surprisingly creative and, IMO, "woke" plot WRT criminal justice reform, including a PSA by Clark at the end to the in-show audience. 
I would love to see the episode re-shot with a black actor cast in the role of the ex-con, which, IMO, would be a dose of reality rather than stereotyping. 
Seriously, I had to wipe away a tear at the end, when the ex-con told his son via a TV interview with Clark, "I'm coming home, son." 
   --Interestingly, Hugh Beaumont plays the ex-con dad, and this was a couple of years *before* he was cast as Ward Cleaver. 

In this Superman & Lois show, Lois would be the reporter doing the interview, which would add another update WRT gender.

The episode on is on Daily Motion or on Prime Video for a $1.99. 

 

[Trini]

I thought they were showing Jordan as somewhat comparable to Lois, the way he was determined to find out the truth about what happened in the barn; Jonathan seemed the more "Superman-ly" one on the surface.

 

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am not familiar with Helbing in particular. But in so far as Arrowverse shows go, IMO Black characters have tended to be more toward the incidentally they are Black (Diggle and Curtis in Arrow, the Wests and Cecile in Flash, Jimmy and Kelly Olsen in Supergirl and Luke in Batwoman) and less toward the part of the spectrum where Blackness is an integral part of their identity/plot and character arcs/backstory (Ryan Hunter Batwoman and everyone on Black Lightning).

Seeing how more of the integrally Black characters are relatively newcomers, maybe a little optimism would otherwise be called for if you factor out the Black writer being let go?

All of the "incidentally Black" characters you mentioned have had their Blackness acknowledged at the very least, in dialogue, but most have had storylines where it was a factor; except the Wests on The Flash, were Helbing was showrunner and executive producer. Race/ethnicity was completely ignored, even when half the cast were minorities.

No, I don't think Helbing is going to be suddenly better here (about this issue) when all the central characters are white. The problems with the Black characters - so far - are evident without the writer's comments. Already knew he was a so-so showrunner from Flash.

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think Sean was portrayed as somewhat reasonable for a teen boy. Who wouldn't become angry when they saw some strange kid make unwanted moves on his girlfriend? He may end up having an arc like Whitney in Smallville: start off the jealous jerk who makes life tougher for the hero but eventually develop a grudging respect and sorta-friendship.

No one said he was unreasonable, but there's a larger context that I already explained.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 minutes ago, Trini said:

All of the "incidentally Black" characters you mentioned have had their Blackness acknowledged at the very least, in dialogue, but most have had storylines where it was a factor; except the Wests on The Flash, were Helbing was showrunner and executive producer. Race/ethnicity was completely ignored, even when half the cast were minorities.

I've watched pretty much all of Arrow, Flash and Supergirl, and I am hard-pressed to think of too many concrete examples of when the characters I listed had storylines where their Blackness was a factor. It could be that episodes have blurred together and I'm skipping stuff.

I think that there was a Jimmy Olsen Guardian theme where he talked something about the criminal justice system and black men, and Diggle made an offhand remark that his secret identity was Oliver's "Black driver." 

But I'd be interested in examples where it was more than a quick nod for any of those characters.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

I thought they were showing Jordan as somewhat comparable to Lois, the way he was determined to find out the truth about what happened in the barn; Jonathan seemed the more "Superman-ly" one on the surface.

I think one of the basic truths of superman is that he is Clark Kent: The only thing that keeps hom respectful, humble, honest and generally not a weapon of mass destruction. He is Clark because of good parenting.  So Superman may cool reactors but his really heroic job will be to pass that on to his kids. Anyway the kids ideally should be a combination of their parents and some  of themselves also. 
 

i do think Jonathan is supposed to look the most supermanly, but we’ll see. To early to tell. 
 

i wonder how integrated small towns in Kansas are these days. 

[Trini]

Wasn't sure where to put this:

 

That is gorgeous; but then they put filters in post. I hope they ease up on that.

[Trini]

Another reason crossovers may be less likely - or just more complicated - this show is using a different visual effects company than the rest of the other shows. So if any of the other superpowered heroes appear here, I think they'd have to start from scratch with digital doubles, etc. Could be costly.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Trini

[ukgirl71]

Maybe Jonathan, through whatever he does to honour his promise to help Jordan, will trigger Jordan’s powers again, and discover his own abilities?

[Megras]

Does anyone think that the unusual spelling of Subjects in the title of ep 9 is significant? It brought to mind the spelling used for Apokilips which I believe is a thing in the DC universe.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Megras said:

Does anyone think that the unusual spelling of Subjects in the title of ep 9 is significant? It brought to mind the spelling used for Apokilips which I believe is a thing in the DC universe.

I’m sure it means something. 

[scarynikki12]

5 hours ago, tvwatchergordis said:

As to if Natalie is technically Lois' or not? I'm confused. Yes that Lois died way pre-crisis but since post crisis there's only one version of the multiverse/one original person I don't know. Technically there's only one Lois Lane now so does she share that daughter with John? Earth Prime's Lois was pregnant with a girl(also gonna be named Natalie) but that baby was Clark's not John's.... so that means it's not this Nat. Ugh this is so confusing I hope S2 clears it up. I want Natalie to not be genetically tied to Lois at all. Let her just be a mother figure, not her real mother somehow. 

 

Lois is not Natalie's mother. Nat's mother was Lois' doppelgänger from Earth Whatever that was destroyed when Crisis occurred. She managed to make it to our post-Crisis Earth Prime but that doesn't suddenly make her Lois' daughter. In the same episode Irons acknowledged that his Lois is not the same person as our Lois which is why he intended to leave town. 

We're going to have a ton of confusion on Natalie's part about doppelgängers, Crisis, and everything which will be combined with Lois' own emotional response to hopefully make for good television. Lois will likely end up a mother figure to Natalie but they need to make it clear that it's more like when a sibling steps up to look out for a dead sister's child rather than a full replacement. 

What I'm most curious about is what will happen to Natasha. Crisis removed doppelgängers from the Arrowverse and the various shows have made it clear that the few who survived cannot co-exist. Supergirl showed the doubles merging, Batwoman flat out said that only one could exist and followed through, Flash made the doubles into disembodied spirits and brought back the original, and Arrow kept the double alive since she was intended for a spinoff that didn't get picked up. Based on what we've seen Natasha is not long for this world. So far S&L has not broken the doppelgänger rules and I'm willing to believe they still won't. I doubt we'll have a merge or a disembodied spirit situation so I'm guessing they'll go the Batwoman route so we can get some angst. 

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

What I'm most curious about is what will happen to Natasha. Crisis removed doppelgängers from the Arrowverse and the various shows have made it clear that the few who survived cannot co-exist. Supergirl showed the doubles merging, Batwoman flat out said that only one could exist and followed through, Flash made the doubles into disembodied spirits and brought back the original, and Arrow kept the double alive since she was intended for a spinoff that didn't get picked up. Based on what we've seen Natasha is not long for this world. So far S&L has not broken the doppelgänger rules and I'm willing to believe they still won't. I doubt we'll have a merge or a disembodied spirit situation so I'm guessing they'll go the Batwoman route so we can get some angst. 

This isn't a true doppelgänger situation, however. As you yourself said, Earth-Prime Lois isn't Natalie's mother, and the daughter that she would have had with Clark but for the miscarriage would have been a different girl altogether. So Natalie Irons isn't anyone's doppelgänger. She's a young woman who was born to the Lois Lane and the John Henry Irons of another Earth in another universe. So she's not going anywhere.

Edited August 18, 2021 by legaleagle53

[shapeshifter]

I wonder if the story of Lois losing a daughter was always supposed to lead up to this moment when she meets motherless Natalie who has lost a mother who looked exactly like Lois. 

[Avabelle]

I think Kyle will die a heroes death in the final. It’s clear the show don’t know where to put him and since he and Lana broke up he’s just been on the sidelines. Now that he’s redeemed himself as a father I think he’ll get killed off in the finale.

[ahisma]

4 hours ago, Avabelle said:

I think Kyle will die a heroes death in the final. It’s clear the show don’t know where to put him and since he and Lana broke up he’s just been on the sidelines. Now that he’s redeemed himself as a father I think he’ll get killed off in the finale.

Ooof, I didn’t even think of that. It looked a bit like they might have a chance of reconciling, but your thought makes sense. Lana would have to keep The Secret from him—it’s more likely the show just takes him out of the picture. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I guess this is the best place for this?

It doesn't make sense to me that only Jordan got super powers, but not Jonathan. To use an example, we have Flash/Barry, whose twins are both speedsters, and his powers weren't originally in his DNA, you know?

I think it would have been awesome to have these twins to also have inherited their dad's powers--someone who was born with them. But, whatever. 

[kickingnames]

I do agree. There’s no real in-universe explanation for it, beyond just shrugging your shoulders that “genes are weird”. The IRL explanation seems to be that the writers decided to structure the show as “half human / half superhero”, which is why it’s specifically called SUPERMAN and Lois instead of Clark and Lois, or The Kents, or anything else. So far they seem determined to keep it half and half, which means only one twin gets superpowers. (Now, if only they could keep the quality storylines half and half…)

Who knows, maybe they’ll eventually get so stretched for stories that they finally give Jonathan powers for real — but for now I think that they think they can mine more family drama out of one twin “taking after Lois” and not having powers.

[ukgirl71]

I’m going to speculate that both Tal and Bizarro will be back in the Finale - aside from that, I’ve got nothing.  I’m not feeling a Kyle death, but hey, it’s fun to guess!