S06.E20: The Last Leg

[ScoobieDoobs]

I guess it just surprised me to watch the degradation of Aviva.

 

I'm not sure I would go so far as to say "degradation".  They're annoyed with her bullshit & nonsense & calling her out for it.  Where does "degradation" play into that?  Well, at least she hasn't said they're all bullying her.  Oy, is that where it's gonna go at the reunion?  Cuz if it does, I'm out quick.  In her last blog, she seemed to be whining that she was a victim, so I wouldn't be surprised if she makes bully accusations.  Yawn.  They all attack each other pretty good & get in tons of nasty insults, so any mention of bullying is dopey.

[LotusFlower]

 Still hoping they do get rid of her.

I think the final bit of evidence that she's definitely not coming back is that she wasn't a guest on WWHL on Tuesday night after the finale. Most of the episode, all of the drama, not to mention the episode title - was all about her, yet Ramona, Heather, and LuAnn were invited, not her.

[ScoobieDoobs]

I would argue it was self-inflicted.

 

Exactly.  If Veevs has found herself in a place where so many of them can't stand her, well, she has nobody to blame but herself for being in that position.  Who would be stupid enough to trust her?  Moaner might do lunch with her, but does anyone actually think she trusts Veevs?  No fuckin' way.  Sonja is a deluded desperate moron, so she'll take the risk of getting close to her.  Nobody else on the show will.  Why?  Simply cuz she'll befriend you one moment & the next moment stab you in the back, make up horrible lies, besmirch your reputation (personal, professional or whatever else) without a care or a moment's hesitation, if it means more camera time for her.  What sane person would wanna be anywhere near this woman?

[LotusFlower]

My grandmother lost her leg in childhood, and I can only imagine how horrified she would be that Aviva played that moment for drama the way she did. Of course, my grandmother was also a very very demure black woman from the South. So she would have been horrified at the idea of a shoe on the dinner table next to the dishes, let alone a shoe that contained a prosthetic leg.

The Countess said this very thing! Andy asked her on WWHL about her view on the incident, and a shoe on the table next to silverware was the first thing she said, citing etiquette. It was really funny.

[ScoobieDoobs]

I'm not a fan of Aviva's but for fux sake, I don't know how you go through all that and not have some major fucking issues.  A little empathy and not a gang up goes a long way.

 

I was under the impression Aviva strenuously didn't want sympathy for being an amputee.  Or does she actually want sympathy?  I'm confused.  

 

I'm still not seeing this as a gang up.  Looked to me like they all wanted to get up & walk away from her.  Smartest way to deal with Veevs.  To get the fuck as far away as possible from her.

[LotusFlower]

 

I'm still not seeing this as a gang up.  Looked to me like they all wanted to get up & walk away from her.  Smartest way to deal with Veevs.  To get the fuck as far away as possible from her.

Not only did Heather and Carole get up from the table, but they wanted to leave the party. But they weren't allowed to, and were ordered back to the table. Yup, it was all staged.

[aradia22]

 

I just went over to Bravo and read Sonja's blog.  I don't think her "poop pills" are working, cause she is full of shit!

Oh my God. I usually don't go for scatological humor but that's bloody hilarious.

 

Every once in awhile Aviva is correct and when Carole, for example went after Aviva for lying about her age, Aviva stated age, at the beginning of the filming of the first season was listed as 40.  Carole went to her blog and said Aviva is a liar she is 45 this season.  Well Carole looks like an ass because Aviva produces a passport and her date of birth is 09/09/72.   Aviva would have been correct about her own age and Carole looks like a fool.

To clarify, I haven't gone insane. I don't think Aviva is a good person, at least considering how she's been portrayed on the show. But sometimes she's right and sometimes her antagonizing prods one of the other women to inadvertently reveal something about themselves. That's where I'm coming from. I don't think we should discount everything just because Aviva is terrible. They're all terrible.

 

Those who have called Ramona out for being an alcoholic, drunk, or excessive problem drinking-LuAnn (numerous times), Jill, Cindy Barshop, Kelly, Heather, Carole, Russ, Aviva and Kristen.  I think it is pretty safe to say  the only RHONY who have not called her out are Bethenny, Sonja and Alex McCord.

Thank you. It's been a long season but I was sure I hadn't imagined it.

 

Personally, I'd like to discuss how I think Luann really did get in the cab alone with Harry and that the other Hos are covering for her.  Any takers?

My read on the situation from Luanne's and Harry's accounts were that they did leave together to go out dancing or something and then they each went home. Yeah, if we're to believe in the epic Harry/Sonja love story then he was wrong to leave her at the party to go have a fun time with another woman regardless of whether they slept together. But maybe it's just that I find Harry repulsive but I'm inclined to believe Luanne when she says they didn't spend the night together.

 

Well, Carole is lambasted for everything from daring to flirt with younger guys and her "age-inappropriate" wardrobe to her alleged vitriol for non-working mothers.

I snark on her because she's bad at flirting with younger guys. I'd snark on younger women who were equally bad at flirting with guys their own age. I don't think her wardrobe is age-inappropriate. I think it's hideous. 

 

Instead she turned into this neurotic mess where people actually feel entitled to poke fun at her leg situation because she's an attention whore.

Yeah, this has made me super uncomfortable this season. Aviva has somehow given the women a free pass to mock mental illness and physical disability and it's hard for me to get past the negative feelings I have for them because of it.

[JAYJAY1979]

I want reality, not manufactured drama.  I might as well watch a soap opera.

 

I guess I'm not surprised Sonja thinks she's fab... she and reality parted ways back in the 90s.

 

Do you think Aviva really isn't coming back?  Andy Cohen keeps bringing Brandi and Tamra back so why not Aviva as well.

[ScoobieDoobs]

The difference is both Brandi & Tams are obedient employees.  Veevs is definitely not.  She trouble.  Big trouble.  And these producers don't like to deal with trouble.  Not showing up for any trips is reason enough for them to fire her.

[MatildaMoody]

 

I'm not a fan of Aviva's but for fux sake, I don't know how you go through all that and not have some major fucking issues.  A little empathy and not a gang up goes a long way.

I guess I didn't see a gang up. Aviva kept calling them back to the table. Not only that, but Aviva came in and said hello to the women. They all said hello and then Aviva walked away and asked Sonja if the women were angry with her. Then she either went back to them and invited them to sit down with her, or she called them over - I can't remember exactly. But I remember thinking if she is so sure that they hate her, why does she keep insisting they come around her and talk. 

 

As much as Carole, Heather, and Kristen talked/joked about Aviva at Carole's apartment, none of them broached her with anything when they actually saw her at the party. Aviva initiated all of that conversation. And, even when they walked away from her, she kept calling them back to the table. Heather even tried to point out that this was supposed to be an event about Sonja and Aviva still charged ahead.

 

I just don't think there was a gang up. I think that they all fell into Aviva's well orchestrated plot so that she could not only play the victim, but then have the "shocking" moment of putting her leg on the table and when that wasn't enough, tossing it on to the floor. I think the initial reaction of laughter when she put it on the table was totally appropriate. They knew what she was doing and that is why they walked away. But, when she lost her audience, Aviva couldn't help herself. She had to get more attention/drama so that was why she threw it and started yelling about crawling out. 

 

My grandmother would have called Aviva a ton of not so PC names, but the most PC I can think of would have been "Shamefully shameless hussy." Please keep in mind that my grandmother believed that anyone who acted less than demure was a hussy. So, She would have thought that all of these women were hussies at some point during the season, and it has nothing to do with their sexual proclivities. But, since my grandmother was also an amputee, she would have been disgusted and appalled by Aviva's behavior in particular. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

Aviva has somehow given the women a free pass to mock mental illness and physical disability and it's hard for me to get past the negative feelings I have for them because of it

 

Have they actually mocked Aviva for being an amputee?  If that has happened, I missed it.  Can anyone confirm if that has actually happened?  Everyone on there mocks mental illness -- even Aviva herself, so I'm not seeing anything to object there.

 

If we were gonna hold a contest of who is the nastiest on the show & who has said the cruelest, meanest, most insulting comments (and who has said the highest number of these kinda loathsome, hateful comments), the winner would certainly be Aviva.  Altho the Moaner might come in a close second.  Please, Veevs ain't no victim.

Edited July 25, 2014 by ScoobieDoobs

[LotusFlower]

Yeah, this has made me super uncomfortable this season. Aviva has somehow given the women a free pass to mock mental illness and physical disability and it's hard for me to get past the negative feelings I have for them because of it.

Who mocked her physical disability? I also don't think she's mentally ill. I think she has faked everything, from her phobias to all the other excuses.

[MatildaMoody]

I also wanted to address the age thing when it comes to Aviva. To me, Aviva yelling at Carole that at least she wasn't 50, wasn't the most horrible part. It was that she followed up the "at least I'm not 50" with the words "with no husband." I can't remember exactly how Aviva phrased it, but I heard it in the fray, and thought it was a much lower blow than what Carole said about Aviva having never worked out of the home. Because prior to Carole saying that Aviva had never worked outside of the home, she tried to calmly explain that she would never disparage Aviva as a mother. She was trying to acknowledge Aviva's accomplishments and give her an understanding of why what Aviva was doing was so hurtful.  Aviva was just too busy trying to win the argument and yell over Carole's explanation to give that any thought.

 

I just think that when some pampered bitch yells that at least she isn't 50 with no husband at a widow, said widow has a right to call out the fact that said pampered bitch has never worked outside of the home. I don't think that the never worked outside of the home and calling her a nothing are actually connected. I think they were just the erratic thoughts that pop into the head of a widow who has decided to focus on her career and is now having everything she has worked for called into question for the sake of creating a story line in the heat of an argument.

 

If Carole had not tried to reason with Aviva about how she felt before Aviva went on her rant about age and husbands, I could see how SAHM's could see Carole as attacking them. But, since that wasn't actually what was on film, I can't buy that Carole was doing anything other than making a verbal attack against Aviva specifically.

 

I'm actually kind of surprised that those words were the thing that upset people more than the fact that Carole actually grabbed Aviva's face, to try to get her to stop spewing her hateful and disgusting verbal diatribe. Especially since Aviva described all of the women's words about her as "verbal rape" after that and later confrontations. 

 

ETA: Actually, I can't remember if the "verbal rape" comment was this season or last season, but the rest of my post still applies.

Edited July 25, 2014 by MatildaMoody

[ScoobieDoobs]

I don't think we should discount everything just because Aviva is terrible. They're all terrible.

 

Her Bravo blogs have me scratch my head in disbelief.  She tries to say something to reflect her law school education & it often comes out flawed.  Her blogs are often as senseless & incoherent as Sonja's are.  At least her grammar isn't as terrible as Lu's is.  It actually seems OK.  No, I wouldn't necessarily discount everything she says, but despite her education she doesn't impress me as being especially bright -- so that surprises me.

 

Btw, I have seen Veevs in person -- recently on Madison Avenue.  She's actually -- believe it or not -- very impressive looking.  She's tall & elegant & holds herself beautifully & walks in a way you wouldn't especially realize she's an amputee.  It kinda reminds me that I also spotted Kelly not too long ago in Soho.  She also looked tall & beautiful (I know -- believe it or not -- she did).  

 

But I had the same reaction to both of them, when I saw them.  Fear.  Yeah, fear.  OK, Kells is ancient history on this show, so let's forget about her.  But what about Veevs?  I just don't get it.  Does she think about how people see her now in real life?  I can't be the only one who has reacted in fear when seeing her & wanted to cross the street so as not to be near her.  I don't get it, I don't get it, I don't get it.  Can anyone help me understand why Aviva would choose to act this way on a national TV show?  WTF???  Yeah, she got attention -- but for being a lunatic.  Who'd want that?

Edited July 25, 2014 by ScoobieDoobs

[ryebread]

I'm not a fan of Aviva's but for fux sake, I don't know how you go through all that and not have some major fucking issues.  A little empathy and not a gang up goes a long way.

Yes.  Very sad to me.  I said long ago that I was surprised that Heather, especially, couldn't understand why Aviva might have major issues.  Heather has spent time with children in a hospital.  Her son has been/will be teased for his differences.  FACT.  I don't care what a raving lunatic you think someone is, if you have one shred of awareness  - which she should - for an adult who grew up with extenuating physical injury/ailment, you'd step away from the crazy at least and not poke it at best.

Carol?  Yeah, it was great that she gave Aviva her leg back.  But then she tells her she's weird and she needs help.  Like Aviva hasn't heard she's weird since she was a 6 year old with a stump for a leg.  Ugh.  They all disgust me. Yes, Aviva, too, for other reasons. When I saw this pic of her, my heart softened a little. There are other pics of her as child that are better but this one got me. The trauma she suffered as a 6 year old would be horrifying.  A pre-teen girl trying to fit in with a disability like hers? Another kind of trauma altogether.  You don't come out of something like that without some major issues.  It's a picture of her at what looks about 10 years old on the side of a pool.

http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season-6/photos/before-they-were-housewives-new-york-edition?cid=showmain_highlights#image-187038

[RedheadZombie]

I was under the impression Aviva strenuously didn't want sympathy for being an amputee.  Or does she actually want sympathy?  I'm confused.  

 

I view Aviva a little differently than most.  I'm not sure I can articulate it, but I'll try.  I don't think Aviva wants special treatment as an amputee.  I don't think she expects allowances to be made for her, and I think (in her first season) she was a great model for others with physical disabilities.  I don't think she lets wearing a prosthesis limit her life.  She dresses fashionably, does not wear sensible shoes, has travelled at length, goes to swimming pools, etc.  I think she would have been horrified to have been greeted by that wheelchair in Montana. I don't think it's the actuality of being an amputee that's a problem.

 

I think the bulk of Aviva's neuroses are based in being trapped in excruciating pain while her leg was being manually amputated.  It was having her parents come running, and then seeing them unable to rescue her from that pain.   It's from being rescued by a rural EMS that wasn't prepared for such a situation, and in a time when people - especially children - received a much lower level of care and pain control en route to hospitals. I think it's a form of PTSD, and it's rooted in that experience as well as her loss of autonomy and feeling of safety.  I think her parents probably taught her that her prosthesis should not and would not limit her.  I just think it's a lot harder to deal with the psychological fall out.  Her mother was an alcoholic, her father seemed co-dependent.  They probably reinforced these psychological issues.  Once you have one phobia, you are much more likely to have more. 

 

Sure there are people who experience equal or even worse traumas in childhood, and seem unaffected.  But there are also a lot of people who have lovely glowing childhoods and are huge fuckups.  Part of our individual abilities to handle life is in our genetic makeup - and that's like playing the lottery.  I had a chronic childhood disease that I realize more and more has colored my life.  When I would go to the children's hospital where I was treated, I would see children in wheelchairs and know that what I had was nothing compared to these kids.  Yet it still molded me in certain ways.

 

I'm not saying I necessarily like Aviva - I certainly no longer enjoy watching her on this show.  I don't know that I'd want to be her friend.  I just feel empathy for her because she really seems unable to step back and self-reflect.  I truly think that part of the problem is Aviva sees her self as very noble in how she's lived her life as an amputee, and her work in her charity.  I think this makes her less able to recognize the degree of psychological issues she has, and she's probably surrounded by people who reinforce that.  In her first season, Aviva was able to mock herself.  She talked about being completely over-educated, and the fact that she doesn't utilize that education.  She knew she was a basket case of phobias, etc.  She seems to have lost that self-deprecation since then.

Edited July 25, 2014 by RedheadZombie

[ScoobieDoobs]

Especially since Aviva described all of the women's words about her as "verbal rape" after that and later confrontations.

 

Ugh, I forgot about that.  Thanks for the reminder.  Saying she was verbally raped was so vile.  It's not exactly difficult to dislike this woman.  Look, Aviva has flung out more horrible comments at the rest of them than they have at her.  I'm not sad for her in the least.  She gives as good as she gets.  Nothing there to be sad about.  Her life seems very, very comfy to me.

Edited July 25, 2014 by ScoobieDoobs

[MatildaMoody]

 

I don't care what a raving lunatic you think someone is, if you have one shred of awareness  - which she should - for an adult who grew up with extenuating physical injury/ailment, you'd step away from the crazy at least and not poke it at best.

But isn't that exactly what Heather did do? She, Carole, and Luann all walked away from Aviva. Aviva called them back to the table because she wasn't done. Hell, Heather even tried to remind everyone that they were there for Sonja and not Aviva. Aviva just wasn't having it.

 

ETA:

 

I think the bulk of Aviva's neuroses are based in being trapped in excruciating pain while her leg was being manually amputated.  It was having her parents come running, and then seeing them unable to rescue her from that pain.   It's from being rescued by a rural EMS that wasn't prepared for such a situation, and in a time when people - especially children - received a much lower level of care and pain control en route to hospitals. I think it's a form of PTSD, and it's rooted in that experience as well as her loss of autonomy and feeling of safety.  I think her parents probably taught her that her prosthesis should not and would not limit her.  I just think it's a lot harder to deal with the psychological fall out.  Her mother was an alcoholic, her father seemed co-dependent.  They probably reinforced these psychological issues.  Once you have one phobia, you are much more likely to have more.

But, is that actually what happened? I've read several interviews from Aviva and I don't recall her ever saying that her leg was amputated on the spot. Most of the interviews describe her being extricated from the machinery and her father telling her to scream as much as she wanted. She then talks about having to have part of her leg amputated and later having more of it amputated so that she could have better prosthesis made - which was her decision. 

 

So, yes, I can totally get having PTSD, and dealing with a perverted father who drove his wife to drink causing psychological issues. But, I can't get behind the rest of women having to suddenly understand a cast member who claims that she doesn't want to be treated differently, only to have that same cast member pitch a fit when she wasn't given special treatment. Especially, when said cast member is so vicious towards them while still claiming that she should not be given special treatment.

Edited July 25, 2014 by MatildaMoody

[RedheadZombie]

Who mocked her physical disability? I also don't think she's mentally ill. I think she has faked everything, from her phobias to all the other excuses.

 

If Aviva has completely made up all her phobias and illnesses, that's the definition of mental illness.  

[LotusFlower]

 Can anyone help me understand why Aviva would choose to act this way on a national TV show?  WTF???  Yeah, she got attention -- but for being a lunatic.  Who'd want that?

I remember one time on the Kartrashians, Kris Jenner was not getting along with someone, and she said, in all earnestness, that she didn't understand why, since "everyone likes [her]," and she's "so much fun." Talk about a lack of self-awareness, not to mention ego. I think everyone who goes on to a reality show is in love with themselves. Or at the very least, they think they're all that, and the world will be as charmed by them as they are by themselves.

[ScoobieDoobs]

I truly think that part of the problem is Aviva sees her self as very noble in how she's lived her life as an amputee, and her work in her charity.  I think this makes her less able to recognize the degree of psychological issues she has, and she's probably surrounded by people who reinforce that.

 

OK, it's not that I can't sympathize with what she has been thru.  That's NOT what it's about for me.  It's her continuing non-stop nastiness.  What if you had to work with this woman & she came after you like she did to Carole -- stabbed you in the back, attacked you horribly (completely unprovoked) & tried to ruin your reputation?  My sympathy for her would be (and now is) non-existent.  Her behavior has simply been reprehensible & there is no excuse for it.  There are people who try to excuse those who commit heinous crimes.  I can't be bothered.

[maggiemae]

I read Aviva's very short blog. I thought it was very pretentious. She said her character was impugned....oooook. Who says that in real life?

 

And she said she is a lawyer. From the skimpy research I did that is technically correct. She did get a JD - professional graduate in law, or a Juris Doctor in other words. I had not realized lawyers are JD's but attorneys are not as they  have a license and practicing....or doing something else but DID at one time and still in good standing (liked not disbarred).

 

But then I think her constantly throwing out she is a lawyer is pretentious as well. But that is most likely just me....I would say I received a degree in law but have never practiced. Kind of like IRL I have a degree in Home Ec and would cause an eruption of laughter if I threw that out seriously in front of friends and family.

 

I think she did a real disservice to the people who she has charitably been helping for throwing her leg on the table and floor. Not a good role model at all for overcoming a tragic loss of a limb - and especially since she has such a wardrobe of legs for she shoes that look so realistic and doesn't seem to affect her gait while walking, sitting, etc.

 

IOW - I hope her time is up on the show....if it is renewed and I bother to tune in next season.

[aradia22]

 

Btw, I have seen Veevs in person -- recently on Madison Avenue.  She's actually -- believe it or not -- very impressive looking.  She's tall & elegant & holds herself beautifully & walks in a way you wouldn't especially realize she's an amputee.  It kinda reminds me that I also spotted Kelly not too long ago in Soho.  She also looked tall & beautiful (I know -- believe it or not -- she did).

Ugh, jealous. The last two people I spotted just out and about were Alec Baldwin and a girl who didn't win ANTM. And that was ages ago. And before that it was people who didn't win Project Runway and Hosea from Top Chef. Not that I would ever bother them (unless it was someone amazing like Laura Benanti) but why don't I ever run into interesting people in NY?

 

Who mocked her physical disability? I also don't think she's mentally ill. I think she has faked everything, from her phobias to all the other excuses.

I'm not sad for Aviva. I'm not defending her behavior. I'm just sensitive to those kinds of comments. It reflects a kind of nastiness that goes beyond mocking a particular individual. I'm pretty sure Carole and Heather have mocked her disability on more than one occasion this season. However, I am planning to forget all of this ever happened in a couple of months so the details are already becoming fuzzy. 

[LotusFlower]

If Aviva has completely made up all her phobias and illnesses, that's the definition of mental illness.

Some people agree with this theory (see Münchausen syndrome), but I don't. I think she's calculating and perfectly sane. One of the HW, I think Carole, said that one time she asked Aviva about one of her phobias, and Aviva replied: "that was last season!" And did you notice that she never mentioned her phobias even once this season? Something that she said crippled her daily life last time 'round. If she manufactured them, then it's not real. If it's not real, it's not a mental illness, but cold , hard reality tv strategy.

[MatildaMoody]

 

I read Aviva's very short blog. I thought it was very pretentious. She said her character was impugned....oooook. Who says that in real life?

 

I assume the same type of people who proclaim that they were "verbally raped" because someone dared disagree with them.

[ryebread]

No surprise I loved your post RedHeadZombie.

 

But isn't that exactly what Heather did do? She, Carole, and Luann all walked away from Aviva. Aviva called them back to the table because she wasn't done. Hell, Heather even tried to remind everyone that they were there for Sonja and not Aviva. Aviva just wasn't having it.

 

So, yes, I can totally get having PTSD, and dealing with a perverted father who drove his wife to drink causing psychological issues. But, I can't get behind the rest of women having to suddenly understand a cast member who claims that she doesn't want to be treated differently, only to have that same cast member pitch a fit when she wasn't given special treatment. Especially, when said cast member is so vicious towards them while still claiming that she should not be given special treatment.

 

In regards to them walking away from her, I wasn't talking so much about LeCirque as I was about the rest of the season.  I think Aviva totally set LeCirque up.  Proof is the bag she brought along. 

 

None of the women have to 'suddenly understand' her. Because she gets as much as she gives.  I just think they're assholes for poking at the crazy. I don't know why it takes that much understanding for them.. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by ryebread

[LotusFlower]

I'm pretty sure Carole and Heather have mocked her disability on more than one occasion this season.

They really haven't. I'm sure of it. That would be a horrible thing to do, and I would never defend it if it happened.. Plus, there's no way something like that would ever get lost in the shuffle.

[sasha206]

I'm not saying that Aviva hasn't acted deplorably.  But at the same time, watching the way the other women with their minuscule problems that they seem to want the world to stop and pay attention to makes me feel a tad more empathy towards Aviva.  I mean, sorry Kristin she didn't go to your Montana trip -- which you spent being upset at the rock climbing instructors and then hounded Heather about being "bossy" -- but questioning whether or not she has asthma and then being accusatory towards her, you know, to "help her with her neurosis" is just fucking irritating to me.  I find her actions somewhat more deplorable.  My God this woman gets hit with a plastic cup and she went on and on about her modeling career being in jeopardy over a bump you couldn't even see.  

They really haven't. I'm sure of it. That would be a horrible thing to do, and I would never defend it if it happened.. Plus, there's no way something like that would ever get lost in the shuffle.

 

I'd have to go back and look at the tape, but there's been a lot of "leg to stand on" type of jokes during talking heads.  Nothing that sounds vicious but I don't think using her amputee status as a punchline is cute either.

Edited July 25, 2014 by sasha206

[MatildaMoody]

No surprise I loved your post RedHeadZombie.

 

 

In regards to them walking away from her, I wasn't talking so much about LeCirque as I was about the rest of the season.  I think Aviva totally set LeCirque up.  Proof is the bag she brought along. 

 

None of the women have to 'suddenly understand' her. Because she gets as much as she gives.  I just think they're assholes for poking at the crazy. I don't know why it takes that much understanding. 

I think this is where I disagree. I didn't see the women poking the crazy the rest of the season. Aviva would say things that were totally vicious to them and they would defend themselves and then...nothing until it was brought back up to them. Even then, it wasn't some full on confrontation with Aviva. 

They talked among themselves when they expected to see Aviva (I think they discussed her once during the trip to Montana and then at Carole's because they were about to see her again).

 

Aviva and Sonja were the only ones who kept bringing up Aviva's relationship(s) with the other women outside of those circumstances. So, I personally don't think that they were poking at anything that had to do with Aviva. Once they were done with Aviva, they were done with her. Aviva was the one who felt that she was still a huge topic of conversation. So, IMO, Aviva was poking herself - I think he must not be named would enjoy that that double entendre.

 

 

My God this woman gets hit with a plastic cup and she went on and on about her modeling career being in jeopardy over a bump you couldn't even see.

I'm waiting for the reunion before I decide for sure that the cup actually was plastic. Because after the season, Ramona and Sonja kept going on and on about the "wine glass" being plastic, and Ramona tweeted the hell out of it and created her own hastag, but nowhere during the filming is that clarified. Even at the *shudder* engagement party for he who must not be named when they had the perfect opportunity, no one brought it up. There was actually a scene when someone said that she made sure the champagne glasses were plastic in case Ramona started throwing things and no one verified whether or not the "glass" she threw at Kristen was plastic. 

 

I'm not saying definitively that it wasn't made of plastic. I am just saying that from the looks of the "glass" that Ramona threw, not only does it not matter what it was made of, I would still like actual verification.

Edited July 25, 2014 by MatildaMoody

[sasha206]

I'm not sure I would go so far as to say "degradation".  They're annoyed with her bullshit & nonsense & calling her out for it.  Where does "degradation" play into that?  Well, at least she hasn't said they're all bullying her.  Oy, is that where it's gonna go at the reunion?  Cuz if it does, I'm out quick.  In her last blog, she seemed to be whining that she was a victim, so I wouldn't be surprised if she makes bully accusations.  Yawn.  They all attack each other pretty good & get in tons of nasty insults, so any mention of bullying is dopey.

 

When I said the word "degradation" I wasn't referring to anything other than how she seemed to go from a respectable, accomplished woman from the first half of the year to a leg throwing neurotic mess.

[ryebread]

Ugh, jealous. The last two people I spotted just out and about were Alec Baldwin and a girl who didn't win ANTM. And that was ages ago.

 

I'm not sad for Aviva. I'm not defending her behavior. I'm just sensitive to those kinds of comments. It reflects a kind of nastiness that goes beyond mocking a particular individual. I'm pretty sure Carole and Heather have mocked her disability on more than one occasion this season. However, I am planning to forget all of this ever happened in a couple of months so the details are already becoming fuzzy. 

Ha!  Mrs. Thurston Howell the Third used to live in my building.  I saw her and her nurse almost every day. How's that for interesting people?

 

Not sad for Aviva either.  She seems to have a nice life.  She probably even has friends.   And I'm with you about planning to forget this ever happened - the details ARE already getting fuzzy.  There's always the RHONY Marathon this weekend if you want a refresher.

[maggiemae]

I can understand childhood experiences can mold an adults life, and the struggles after childhood with life as an adult for that matter. I've been to a therapist twice, once after a hysterectomy in my mid twenties and again in my early 40's after my divorce. A good therapist can help guide one. Luckily for me they were quite short termed.

 

But once something has been haunting someone for nearly 40 years affects one's life, and is affordable, something needs to be done to make peace with whatever it was....which can take a lot of time of course. I was just fortunate in my case.

 

Throwing one's prosthesis on the table and then the floor, and flinging x-rays around is not a solution for Aviva, imo, and her turmoil.

[sasha206]

Again, I find watching Aviva draining.  I'm just perplexed because the person we are now seeing doesn't resemble who I thought she was early in the show.  

 

I just cut her some slack on her neurosis.  I'm claustrophobic.  But it comes and goes.  When I'm stressed out, getting into a crowded elevator is enough to send me into a panic attack.  When I'm more relaxed, the same elevator trip wouldn't bother me.  

 

Her disability doesn't excuse her from bad behavior.  I wouldn't cut her slack from undermining Carole's accomplishments (although I do think before the ghostwriting comment, Carole acted like a fucking ass at lunch when Aviva mentioned that she had written a book), but if a friend of mine had suffered a traumatic injury I sure as hell wouldn't be giving her a load of shit for not attending a function when she has what appears to be a legitimate health issue (unless Dr.'s just give out meds for asthma).  Is she using it as an excuse not to be on a vacation with uncomfortable women who don't like her and she doesn't like?  Possibly.  Likely.  But is that any worse than some of the antics we've seen by the other ladies?  No.

[LotusFlower]

I'd have to go back and look at the tape, but there's been a lot of "leg to stand on" type of jokes during talking heads.  Nothing that sounds vicious but I don't think using her amputee status as a punchline is cute either.

I can save you lots of time - they've never made fun of her disability. Maybe you're thinking of Aviva's own tagline: "people say I'm...(something....I can't remember), but they're just pulling my leg!"

[RedheadZombie]

OK, it's not that I can't sympathize with what she has been thru.  That's NOT what it's about for me.  It's her continuing non-stop nastiness.  What if you had to work with this woman & she came after you like she did to Carole -- stabbed you in the back, attacked you horribly (completely unprovoked) & tried to ruin your reputation?  My sympathy for her would be (and now is) non-existent.  Her behavior has simply been reprehensible & there is no excuse for it.  There are people who try to excuse those who commit heinous crimes.  I can't be bothered.

 

Then you shouldn't be.  Empathy is something that comes naturally - it can't be forced.  I don't choose to feel for her, I just do for some reason.  I'm sure I would feel much less empathy if I was her co-worker.  I don't want to know her, be her neighbor, or even watch her on this show anymore.  I just don't find her to be the most despicable person on this show - that would be Sonja.  You know Sonja, who experienced the trauma of being dumped by her old rich husband, then held accountable for her fraud.  I don't think anyone on this show has committed a "heinous crime" at this point.  I'm leaving my option open to change my level of empathy should Aviva commit a heinous crime.

[ryebread]

I wouldn't cut her slack from undermining Carole's accomplishments (although I do think before the ghostwriting comment, Carole acted like a fucking ass at lunch when Aviva mentioned that she had written a book), but if a friend of mine had suffered a traumatic injury I sure as hell wouldn't be giving her a load of shit for not attending a function when she has what appears to be a legitimate health issue (unless Dr.'s just give out meds for asthma).  Is she using it as an excuse not to be on a vacation with uncomfortable women who don't like her and she doesn't like?  Possibly.  Likely.  But is that any worse than some of the antics we've seen by the other ladies?  No.

I've always thought Carole started all the shit at that lunch but I was afraid to come out of the closet on that one. LOL.  Imo, she got the ball rolling and Aviva started going nuts.  Carole tells Heather, HER version of the lunch.  Heather takes it upon herself to investigate and invite her good pal (not) for a pedicure.  (Why? I dunno.  Because she'd believe Carole even if Heather saw it with her own 2 eyes.) I'd qualify that as a poke.  MatildaMoody this is one example of what I consider the poking.  The next day, Heather tells Carole that she went to a pedi with Aviva.  "Did she say anything about me?"  "Yeah, she brought you up." 

 

Um. No she didn't you liar, Heather.  You took her out to dig for info and in your inimitable way, did most of the talking and skewed the conversation to what you wanted to hear.

Then the fight at Aviva's.  Again, imo, Carole starts it.  Once again, Heather gets Carole's version.  Holy hell breaks loose because the bulldog Heather is now in hot pursuit on behalf of her friend.

All the ladies are bowled over, cowed by Heather for the remainder of the season, so her word is king.  And for me, that's where the trouble begins with Carole's side of the story.  I know mine is not a popular opinion but there it is. 

[LotusFlower]

Throwing one's prosthesis on the table and then the floor, and flinging x-rays around is not a solution for Aviva, imo, and her turmoil.

I agree. That's why I don't think her leg toss was a manifestation of any illness or mental issues, but rather a calculated move for drama and attention.

[ryebread]

I can save you lots of time - they've never made fun of her disability. Maybe you're thinking of Aviva's own tagline: "people say I'm...(something....I can't remember), but they're just pulling my leg!"

Yes they did.  Heather did it while training for the Mudder and Carole did it too...I can't remember when but it was around that same time.  And it was something about Aviva not having a leg to stand on. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

I just don't find her to be the most despicable person on this show - that would be Sonja.  You know Sonja, who experienced the trauma of being dumped by her old rich husband, then held accountable for her fraud.

 

 

Aviva has been absolutely horrible this season.  Is she the most despicable on the show?  I don't wanna think about that cuz it would give me a headache.  They're all assholes in one way or another.  I do agree that Sonja is a pretty despicable character.  I've said it before & it bears repeating.  What the fuck is going on with Sonja & these kids she has as indentured unpaid slaves?  Laying out a towel for some idiot is not an internship.  It makes me cringe.  Sorry, but I find this crap every bit as reprehensible as George's bullshit.  That Andy Cohen thinks this is hilarious says quite a lot about who he is.  Ha, ha, ha, sure Sonja is a con artist, who has a bunch of dumb kids around her -- too stupid to demand to be paid -- that are willing to do her bidding.  Let's all laugh our asses off at that, right?.  And Moaner's latest Bravo blog merely shows she supports Sonja being a con artist.  Lovely.

[maggiemae]

Seems to me Aviva should not have made the loss of her leg into the way she did for the show, like going to the farm - but rather how she overcame that horrid loss and is now focused on her charitable works in that matter. With grace.

 

Not make the horrid of it "her story" for the 2 seasons along with her phobias and illnesses like asthma, reflux and trying to PROVE it over and over with letters and xrays flying out of her purse to prove it in social situations with, well, aquaintences. On national tv.

[LotusFlower]

Yes they did.  Heather did it while training for the Mudder and Carole did it too...I can't remember when but it was around that same time.  And it was something about Aviva not having a leg to stand on.

What did each of them say? Cuz if you're saying that not one but both of them said that Aviva couldn't participate in the mud run because of her artificial leg, then I would be shocked. And I'm sure I'd remember, too, and I wouldn't defend it. But more importantly, Aviva, who uses her blog to viscerate people, esp. Carole and Heather, would NEVER let something like that go unnoticed.

[sasha206]

Yes they did.  Heather did it while training for the Mudder and Carole did it too...I can't remember when but it was around that same time.  And it was something about Aviva not having a leg to stand on. 

 

Exactly.  

 

I get that people dislike Aviva.  But the leg jokes *have* happened.  Those of us with an ounce of empathy aren't pulling stuff out of our asses.

Edited July 25, 2014 by sasha206

[AKA...CJ86]

I'm putting Aviva in the Danielle Staub category (whom I was also somewhat sympathetic towards)…don't poke the "crazy" (not my words as much as the other HWs) and stare in disbelief/shock when the person does something crazy…

 

…I just feel, I can't put everything on Aviva…I think that's where part of my issue is…I don't see how everything seems to be 100% Aviva's fault…and not saying she's a saint…I think theres blame to go around…

Edited July 25, 2014 by CyberJawa1986

[ScoobieDoobs]

They mighta made a lame remark or 2.  BFD.  I've heard worse stuff from Joan Rivers or Kathy Griffin.  It was nowhere near the level of awfulness that Veevs spewed.  At some moments Veevs reminded me of Linda Blair possessed in The Exorcist.  The thought of empathy for Veevs gives me a giggle.  Waste of time & effort to me.  Doubt she'd appreciate or want any empathy.

Edited July 25, 2014 by ScoobieDoobs

[LotusFlower]

I get that people dislike Aviva.  But the leg jokes *have* happened.  Those of us with an ounce of empathy aren't pulling stuff out of our asses.

I'm just asking for an example. On the subject of empathy, I see both Heather and Carole as people with a lot of empathy, and have even shown it, on the show and in their blogs. That's why I'm sure I'd remember it - it would be so out of character.

[sasha206]

Seems to me Aviva should not have made the loss of her leg into the way she did for the show, like going to the farm - but rather how she overcame that horrid loss and is now focused on her charitable works in that matter. With grace.

 

Not make the horrid of it "her story" for the 2 seasons along with her phobias and illnesses like asthma, reflux and trying to PROVE it over and over with letters and xrays flying out of her purse to prove it in social situations with, well, aquaintences. On national tv.

 

I totally agree with this.

 

And I thought when the show first started, that's exactly what we were going to get.  It makes me sad to think of the way it all devolved.  I found the "white trash" episode entertaining largely because well, quite frankly, Ramonja do give off that vibe, but I am having a hard time being entertained by an amputee flinging a prosthesis while people around laugh.

[LotusFlower]

They mighta made a lame remark or 2.  BFD.  I've heard worse stuff from Joan Rivers or Kathy Griffin.  It was nowhere near the level of awfulness that Veevs spewed.  At some moments Veevs reminded me of Linda Blair possessed in The Exorcist.  The thought of empathy for Veevs gives me a giggle.  Waste of time & effort to me.

So much word!

[sasha206]

I'm just asking for an example. On the subject of empathy, I see both Heather and Carole as people with a lot of empathy, and have even shown it, on the show and in their blogs. That's why I'm sure I'd remember it - it would be so out of character.

 

I'll try to find the example for you.  I think it's going to take little work since "Aviva" and "leg" is going to bring up everything from last episode.  

 

It may not stand out at you because the delivery was cutesy.  A pun.  But it was always something that made me think, gee, unnecessary.

[LotusFlower]

I am having a hard time being entertained by an amputee flinging a prosthesis while people around laugh.

It was meant to be entertainment.

It may not stand out at you because the delivery was cutesy.  A pun.  But it was always something that made me think, gee, unnecessary.

What do you think of Aviva's own pun (her tagline)?

[ScoobieDoobs]

Fact is, the producers owe Veevs -- big time.  Maybe she did set up the leg throwing -- so what?  She got 'em vastly improved ratings.  They promoted the shit out of it & built the whole ep around her doing it, even tho she was in the ep for maybe 10 minutes or less.

Edited July 25, 2014 by ScoobieDoobs