S02.E01: The Time of Two Engines

[formerlyfreedom]

Mr. Wilford has arrived. And as this new threat rattles Snowpiercer to its core, Melanie makes a move that can't be undone.

Airing Monday, January 25, 2021.

[AnimeMania]

It was pretty interesting, but still all they do is fight. This is the entire population of the world and all they can think about is killing each other. This episode was much better than anything that they have done in the previous season. I still think somebody should be looking to put a spear through Lilah "L J" Folger, I want to and I am not even on the train.

[skittalion]

Great episode, Sean Bean and Jennifer Connelly turned in a KILLER performance.  Who do you think did the best?  Or was there another person you thought was the best?

[Tachi Rocinante]

Very strong beginning, hope they can keep it up.  Alex called Mr. Wilford "Dad".  Hmm.

[Netfoot]

"We fought a revolution for the good of the people! Unfortunately, now that we've won, the Equality programme must go on hold indefinitely. Pray, excuse me, while I move into the palace!"

Typical Socialist.

[Quilt Fairy]

56 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

  Alex called Mr. Wilford "Dad". 

She may have called him something more than once, but the time I remember (when he told her to uncouple the trains) she actually called him "Dubs", which I assume is a nickname based on the 'W' of Wilford.   That would be consistent with her calling Melanie by her first name. 

My goodness, I hate overly precocious children. 

Has there been any explanation for why Big Alice can start her engine independently but the main train can't?  Presumably they're the same technology. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Quilt Fairy

[iMonrey]

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Has there been any explanation for why Big Alice can start her engine independently but the main train can't?  Presumably they're the same technology. 

This show hasn't even been off the air that long and I already feel like I've forgotten most of the first season. And I don't recall liking it enough to go back and rewatch, either.

First of all, was "Big Alice" the supply train? Did we ever figure out how that was supposed to work when they have significantly fewer cars than Snowpiercer? And why they're out of supplies and Snowpiercer isn't? What happened to the smaller train? Melanie cut them loose or something for . . . reasons? Anyone got a quick refresher course on this?

[AnimeMania]

According to the Closed Captions, Alex called Wilford "Dubs".

Here is what I think happened, the smaller "Supply Train" can link onto the larger "Snowpiercer" to resupply it so that it never has to stop moving. While linked the "Supply Train" has complete control over "Snowpiercer". Melanie severed the complete control link with her little snow axe. Melanie then took her explosive device and placed it where it would disable the disconnect mechanism so that the two trains are now permanently linked together. Wilford mentions riding out a lot of the bad weather in the hanger that the "Supply Train" was stored at where he was able to make myriads of modifications to the "Supply Train" and set up a perfect timing ambush of the "Snowpiercer". One modification of the "Supply Train" seems to be the hospital research and human genetics modification lab.  

If anything it seems like we have a whole train full of BatSh*t Crazy characters to meet this season. 

I was surprised the kid from the Tail wasn't shown in the Engineering Compartment. 

[iMonrey]

But why wouldn't the "supply train" have any food? The first thing Alex demanded was a long list of food supplies, and the workers guarding the door to Big Alice were desperate to trade whatever they had for fruit and potatoes. What exactly were they supplying if not food?

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

First of all, was "Big Alice" the supply train? Did we ever figure out how that was supposed to work when they have significantly fewer cars than Snowpiercer?

I thought it was a little strange that the supply train had to beg for eggs, a bottle of whisky, etc. If they don't have any of the stuff on their list, just what can they supply?

[rmontro]

And if the supply train resupplies the train, why has it never been an issue or come up before now?  I guess Melanie thought the cold killed everybody before the supply train could be activated, so Snowpiercer had to be creative and get along with what they had.  

19 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

It was pretty interesting, but still all they do is fight. This is the entire population of the world and all they can think about is killing each other. 

I noticed that too.  I know the movie had a lot of fighting too, but honestly it's getting a little boring.  It's like on Walking Dead where sometimes it feels all the surviving people they meet are evil jerks.  It should be obvious that they would be a lot better off if everyone worked together.  I guess that's a different show though.  Fits well in our real world, unfortunately.

[AnimeMania]

I think this goes back to the original purpose of Snowpiercer which has never been revealed on the show. My personal theory is that Snowpiercer was originally designed to be a self-contained mobile biodome, never requiring anything from the outside (especially an energy source). Created before anybody knew the great Freeze was coming, but since it was a proof of concept vehicle, a "Supply Train" was created to provide anything that might be needed, small tweaks to maintain it's self-sustaining nature until they get it just right. The "Supply Train" links to the main train, without it stopping, offloading whatever they need and then separating again. Since the "Supply Train" is not self-sustaining, there are probably a lot of items they wish they had, but haven't had in a long time, like fresh eggs, fruit, carrots, morphine, alcohol, etc. It seems like they tried to make the "Supply Train" as self-sustaining as possible, but that was not what it was originally designed for. Since the hanger had all the spare parts for the Snowpiercer, they could probably make a decent attempt at providing the bare necessities, although they might be missing a lot of the "Quality of Life" items they were requesting from the Snowpiercer. Again, this is just me speculating.

[toodywoody]

This season looks good.

I think Mr Wilford used up all the supplies because he's a greedy asshole. So how was he taking a nice hot bath. How are they heating up his bath water? Where does it drain? What did they do to the big guy? So many damn questions.

[formerlyfreedom]

My theory is that because he modified Big Alice from her original purpose, she's no longer a true 'supply' train - hence the weird genetics lab.

Also, how can the crew not have scurvy at this point? But I will use my ample supply of 'handwavium' to ignore that at this point.

[tennisgurl]

The logistics of this show and how the train actually functions is basically nonsense, but I can just handwave it if the story its telling is interesting, and this season seems to be off to a good start. Now that we have Mr. Wilford as our new Big Bad, certainly a bigger bad than Melanie or the Folgers and their cronies, it would be interesting to see everyone on Snowpiercer all working together against a common enemy. Even Layton and Ruth were working together alright, she even let him do a speech over her beloved speaker! So what are they going to do now? I hope we can see the train trying to create some kind of new status quo, in addition to the cold war (heh) with Wilford and his train. We had the revolution...now what do we do? 

I know it wont happen because the show doesent want to get rid of her yet, but its amazing that no one has knifed LJ yet, especially considering her getting away with murder was the spark that lit up the rebellion.  

I thought that Mr. Wilford asking for supplies was more of a power move than him actually needing supplies for his nice dinner. "Oh, you want to live? Then run around on a stupid scavenger hunt for my dinner, or you all freeze to death." 

[Auntie Anxiety]

Sean Bean making it past the first episode is a strange new phenomenon. 

[Haleth]

4 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

Sean Bean making it past the first episode is a strange new phenomenon. 

Yeah, if he makes it to the end of the season it will be a first for him.  Love SB though, he's the main reason I'm back for this season.

Spoiler

I think he says something in the season previews about a king and of course I said out loud, "Snowpiercer has no king.  Snowpiercer needs no king."  

Yeah, the handwaving for this show puts my ceiling fan to shame.

[iMonrey]

Quote

The "Supply Train" links to the main train, without it stopping, offloading whatever they need and then separating again. Since the "Supply Train" is not self-sustaining, there are probably a lot of items they wish they had, but haven't had in a long time, like fresh eggs, fruit, carrots, morphine, alcohol, etc. It seems like they tried to make the "Supply Train" as self-sustaining as possible, but that was not what it was originally designed for.

But . . . but . . . but . . . if the supply train hooks up with Snowpiercer to supply it wouldn't it have to do so at the tail? So wouldn't the tailies already have known about it? Wilford acted like he had no idea what "tailies" were. Or has it never actually joined up with Snowpiercer until now? And if its original purpose was to provide additional supplies, where was it getting them? Was it hanging around somewhere in a warehouse waiting for Snowpiercer to go by on one of its revolutions? 

Finally, how could Melanie have a.) severed Snowpiercer's connection to Big Alice (ostensibly leaving everyone there to die) but then b. "sent men" to fetch her daughter and parents?"

This makes, like, zero sense.

[AnimeMania]

53 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

But . . . but . . . but . . . if the supply train hooks up with Snowpiercer to supply it wouldn't it have to do so at the tail? So wouldn't the tailies already have known about it? Wilford acted like he had no idea what "tailies" were. Or has it never actually joined up with Snowpiercer until now? And if its original purpose was to provide additional supplies, where was it getting them? Was it hanging around somewhere in a warehouse waiting for Snowpiercer to go by on one of its revolutions? 

Finally, how could Melanie have a.) severed Snowpiercer's connection to Big Alice (ostensibly leaving everyone there to die) but then b. "sent men" to fetch her daughter and parents?"

This makes, like, zero sense.

I am talking about the "Supply Train"'s original purpose before everyone found out that the Big Freeze was coming.  Snowpiercer, the world railroad track, and the "Supply Train" were all built before anybody realized the Big Freeze was coming. I am just providing a theory. 

[iMonrey]

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  Snowpiercer, the world railroad track, and the "Supply Train" were all built before anybody realized the Big Freeze was coming. I am just providing a theory. 

Yes but apparently the supply train was at one time connected to Snowpiercer after the big freeze, because Melanie was able to get Wilford onto it and then cut them off. Everyone aboard Snowpiercer believed Wilford was in the engine room through most of Season 1, so it's not like he disappeared before the big freeze. The original purpose of the supply train prior to the big freeze is sort of a moot point. 

[AnimeMania]

What proof do you have that Snowpiercer and the "Supply Train" were connected after the Big Freeze. I thought Melanie left Mr. Wilford behind (because he was a terrible person) and he was never on the Snowpiercer when they took off. That is why he has no ideal of what a Tailie is. Melanie just told people Mr. Wilford was on board, when he was really stuck in the hanger with the "Supply Train". 

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Melanie just told people Mr. Wilford was on board, when he was really stuck in the hanger with the "Supply Train".

That was my understanding. She took off with Snowpiercer, leaving Mr. W. behind on a non-functional Big Alice.

[rmontro]

I was a little confused about the snow.  Melanie saw it snowing while she was outside the train, but everyone seemed to think she was crazy for thinking that.  But in several scenes after that, it looked like you could clearly see it snowing through the windows.  Unless that was just supposed to be the frost that gets kicked up by the train flying around?

[AnimeMania]

19 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I was a little confused about the snow.  Melanie saw it snowing while she was outside the train, but everyone seemed to think she was crazy for thinking that.  But in several scenes after that, it looked like you could clearly see it snowing through the windows.  Unless that was just supposed to be the frost that gets kicked up by the train flying around?

It was too cold to snow, I was wondering if it was caused by the gases leaking from the tear in her suit. It could be a precursor to some climate event that might make the world habitable again.

[iMonrey]

Quote

What proof do you have that Snowpiercer and the "Supply Train" were connected after the Big Freeze. I thought Melanie left Mr. Wilford behind (because he was a terrible person) and he was never on the Snowpiercer when they took off. That is why he has no ideal of what a Tailie is. Melanie just told people Mr. Wilford was on board, when he was really stuck in the hanger with the "Supply Train". 

If nobody on Snowpiercer has ever seen Wilford since boarding the train, that makes it all very Wizard of Oz.

"But nobody can see the great Wilford! Nobody ever sees the great Wilford! Even I've never seen him!" 

"Then how do you know there is one?"

"Because he . . . I . . . uh . . . oh! You're wasting my time!"

[AnimeMania]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

If nobody on Snowpiercer has ever seen Wilford since boarding the train, that makes it all very Wizard of Oz.

"But nobody can see the great Wilford! Nobody ever sees the great Wilford! Even I've never seen him!" 

"Then how do you know there is one?"

"Because he . . . I . . . uh . . . oh! You're wasting my time!"

They heard his announcements, they just never saw him.

[blackwing]

Frankly I was a little bored.  I am most interested in the operations of the train.  I am fascinated by the lifestyles, and the different cars, especially the aquarium car.  I guess I wanted to learn more about what it’s like to actually live on the train. 

But it seems this season will mostly be about politics and injustice and lots of fighting.

I was disgusted to see Lilah Junior again.

What happened to Jinju?  She’s still alive, right?  She’s one of the only people I found myself actually caring about last season.

And I am beyond tired of the “estranged child hates her parent who she thinks wronged her” trope.  It’s tired and overdone.  I’m watching the latest season of “The Expanse” on Prime and the exact same thing is happening there with a son who is mad at his mom leaving him when he was a child.

Edited February 1, 2021 by blackwing

[Hanahope]

It could very well be that Wilford welcomed all the rich people onboard the train, went to the engine area to check something, then told Melanie he had to go get something off Big Alice and left Snowpiercer.  That’s when she took off.  The rich people all believed Wilford never left.

 

when Wilford realized Melanie left, he got Alex, a few others and inhabited Big Alice.  The question is why did he wait 7 years to connect?

 

[AnimeMania]

On 1/26/2021 at 3:14 PM, iMonrey said:

First of all, was "Big Alice" the supply train?

Ok, now I can definitely say yes. Taken from the open credits.

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

It could very well be that Wilford welcomed all the rich people onboard the train, went to the engine area to check something, then told Melanie he had to go get something off Big Alice and left Snowpiercer.  That’s when she took off.  The rich people all believed Wilford never left.

 

when Wilford realized Melanie left, he got Alex, a few others and inhabited Big Alice.  The question is why did he wait 7 years to connect?

My guess was that since Wilford's personal car seems to be attached to "Big Alice" I believe it was originally attached to Snowpiercer, then they uncoupled Wilford's car with Wilford inside (maybe they drugged him, maybe he drugged himself, maybe he took a little nap) and they left him behind. Wilford said they spent several years retrofitting the left over "Supply Train" and the other cars to withstand the weather and to be as self-sufficient/sustaining as possible. 

[Halting Hex]

Quote

ALEX:  I remember less and less of it.  The old world.

And with that, I'm out.  (I got worn down by all the promos during the NCAA tournament, downloaded S1-S2, and have been making my way forward.) There's only so much stupid I can take.

It's one thing to say that Melanie was so shit at planning that she didn't install security cameras or a movie theater or whatever.  But the idea that nobody brought any electronic media aboard is bloody stupid.  What, the Folgers brought their paintings and LJ's LPs, but not one movie or tv show or sports event on a device?  I know damn well that if the world ends and I've bought a ticket on the Ark, I'm taking two things:  my cat and my laptop.  And while Ziggy might not be able to stir memories of a world lost, my collection of shows and sports and movies and concerts should help people remember what Shea Stadium or Torrance CA or Augusta National or the surf off of San Diego looked like.

I'd probably be boring the guests in my cabin to tears with "you know, there was a lumber yard and some auto repair shops out beyond the parking lot.  I used to park there, both to save the fee and because it was a lot easier to get moving after the game than waiting for the lot to empty." and "the school they use for Sunnydale High is actually Torrance High and they used in Beverly Hills 90210 before Buffy was made, whereas Buffy's old school in LA was also in Back to the Future" and so on and so forth.  The idea that "what the world used to be" is dependent only on failing memories is stupid beyond stupid.

It's a pity, since I loved the end of the pilot.  The idea of a strong, capable woman having to bear the burden of literally playing God?  Melanie Cavill as Mother Earth personified?  Sign me up.

But not only did they decide to villainize Melanie to elevate Layton's dumbass "egalitarianism", but they sucked her brains out, too.  Taking Miles into the top-secret most-secure place, without any tests of loyalty or long-term indoctrination…are you kidding me?  That makes as much sense as the jackboots relentlessly charging the ballista instead of just hanging back and waiting for Grey to deploy the gas.  (Which should have had pipes running throughout the train as a riot-control measure, of course.)

But no:  apparently the train has electricity, but doesn't actually use it.  No communications and the only entertainment is watching Audrey ham it up in the Lame Car, I mean Night Car. 

(As for Audrey's other occupation, are you telling me that Melanie didn't have the sense to put a whole team of mental health specialists on board, even though a four-year-old child could tell you that being reduced to a world 20 feet wide would cause tremendous amounts of cabin fever?  But no, they don't even have mood-stabilizers, apparently.  Audrey's mumbo-jumbo is all they have to calm nerves.  The wonder is that there was only one L.J.)

As for the two over-arching issues, here's how I see it:

• The class system is necessary because it incentivizes good behavior.  You do your job, you might get promoted to first class when somebody dies.  IMO there's nothing wrong with socialism (everybody guaranteed a basic, decent life; decisions are made to benefit society as a whole, always), but even communism (with it's outlawing of private property and equal distribution) can work, if done correctly.  Look at the Israeli kibbutzes, for example.

But both of those are based on the ability to obtain free resources.  You can grow more crops, you can build more swimming pools, whatever.  Snowpiercer is a completely closed ecology.  Which means that any disagreement about distribution can't be resolved by a vote, because there's no guarantee the losers will abide by the results.  Shaquille O'Neal and Simone Biles require different amounts of calories to survive:  divide up the food according to need and Simone might start to resent how Shaq gets four times her food.  Divide it up on a flatly equal basis, and Shaq will wonder why this tiny person gets more than she can eat while he's starving.  When people can only gain by taking from others, you need to impose a firm order or the system won't work.

Is it arbitrary? Damn skippy.  But the way you balance it out is to provide carrots to go along with the sticks.  Flatten everything out and you've got no way keep folks from getting unruly.

And does it suck that the Folgers are jerks?  It does.  But it's not merely that, without their money, there would be no train; gratitude isn't infinite, I'd agree.  It's that "Mr. Wilford" has to keep his word; if he tears up the Folgers' tickets to appease third class, then why should anybody trust "Wilford" to honor any future deals?

(It reminds me of a drama where a sociopath was trying to seduce a girl by offering to kill his old girlfriend as a token of love.  Aside from the whole "Murder is bad" issue, even a dim bunny should be able to see that this idea isn't so good for when she becomes the "old girlfriend" and there's somebody new he wants to impress.  Boot the Folgers off just to give their cabin to Jinju and Jinju won't sleep very well, knowing that she could go at anytime, herself.)

Which is not to say that people should be allowed to get away with things because of their class position.  L.J. earned her drawer, if not a throat-full of ice.  Too bad if the Folgers get upset.  Order must be maintained.  If they don't like it, they can find another train to catch.

• But what about the poor oppressed tailies?

Sorry to say it, but they've got to go.  The train was built for (say) 2500, it was equipped for 2500, excess population will use up these finite resources.  Again, where are the idle fields to plow for increased food production?  Even if you shut down the bowling alley, you don't have the topsoil needed.  The train has what it has; there's no room for "guests"

Does it suck that they would die?  Absolutely.  But the whole planet pretty much died.  Melanie can't take everybody on board, and she can't jeopardize the selected inhabitants by cramming extras in.  And when you add in that tailies have already proven that they're willing to kill in order to survive, well…that might be understandable, but I don't think that successful killers are the sort of "charity cases" you want to add to your mix.

Oh, well.  At least I no longer have to wonder why they don't rebuild the cattle population by thawing out sperm and eggs from the dead cows and doing IVF implantation on the sheep, or whatever.  It's been fun, but not enough.

I'll be sad to miss most of Sean Bean, but maybe he's the problem? I mean, Game of Thrones had a nice ending (and a great final line) to its pilot episode, too.  Then, we were 20 minutes into episode 2 and [X] still wasn't dead, which ruined the whole point, and I pulled that plug right then.  Didn't regret it, either, as I don't really have a burning desire to see Emilia Clarke getting railed more often than a commuter train.  But so it goes.

All JMO, of course.  However many cars long the train ends up being.

(BTW, I know I was dealing with info those watching live didn't have, but knowing in advance that Sean Bean was Wilford, it surprised me that nobody on the forums recognized his voice on that tape Melanie made in 1.03.  You'd think somebody might have seen him often enough to be "isn't that Sean Bean playing Wilford?  Sure sounds like him."  But apparently not.  Huh.)

Edited July 4, 2022 by Halting Hex