Lady Whistledown: Friend or Foe

[eleanorofaquitaine]

17 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

 

But flaws are a bit beside the point, I think.  Pen and Eloise have flaws but Eloise's flaws had nothing to do with Penelope.  Pen's flaws directly impacted the lives and reputations of Colin, Marina, and Eloise (and Daphne). Pen did what she did.  So the question that remains is whether or not Pen is a trustworthy person to the Bridgerton clan.  I think she has proven herself not to be.   

I don't see where Colin's reputation was impacted.  He was the victim of Marina's deception - the exposure of it probably made more of an object of sympathy than scorn.

As for Penelope's flaws - it's interesting how people want to turn Marina's and Eloise's flaws into Penelope's. Penelope didn't lie about either Marina or Eloise's actions. Marina was really going to trick Colin into marrying her because she was pregnant and Eloise really was going to political rallies. Obviously they would prefer to keep those things secret but if what they were doing was no big deal, than exposure of them should not have been a big deal either.

Both Marina and Eloise were doing things that put their reputations at jeopardy. We can argue whether or not that is fair. But it's not Penelope's fault that they were doing them.

[Chicago Redshirt]

33 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Not really approved.  Possibly allowed.  As it turned out, she found Eloise that night in the garden anyway.  But again, communicating with Eloise did not have any significant guarantee Eloise would be able to tell Colin.  He could choose to stay out all night and/or simply refuse to listen to her at all.

Yes, as I said.  She saw Eloise.  But as I've noted over and over, communicating with Eloise in not the same as getting information to Colin.  (She also found Eloise outside and there was no indication she presented herself at the front door.)

It's also possible that Pen chose not to expose herself as the vessel for the information since she was essentially tanking her own household.  Portia would have been ready to kill her.  And if Pen was so scared, I wouldn't blame her.  (

So the choice to tell a Bridgerton was not as straightforward as suggested in these posts. 

As for sending a midnight express, that was not at all common and was only done for emergencies.  I'm not sure who Pen would be expected to send it to? Eloise? The Viscountess?  Colin?  Setting aside that a note presents the same communication logistic issues as speaking with the above - getting the message to Colin and/or ruining her reputation. It would hardly be discrete as it would alert the house and there would be questions, sending it to Viscountess Bridgerton would be 

Was her course wise?  Possibly not.  Was it her only option that might work? Also possibly not.  Was it the only option that had a high probability of success?  Yes.

So, @Chicago Redshirt, your bianary options ascribing stupidity or conscious or subconscious malice are not the only motives I see.  The compressed time may have prevented some deliberation that might have presented another option.  But even if she considered them, there were reasons for not taking them.

And I just don't subscribe to the notion that the desperation of Marina's circumstance justified her actions.*  Explain and mitigate them? Sure.  Excuse and justify? No.

 

*I will admit that Colin's visit to Marina seemingly still a dipshit who couldn't understand that Marina didn't love him diminished my sympathies for him.  But Marina's practical exasperation with him likely removed some of her regret it wasn't him after all.  

I acknowledge that there are potentially more options out there, but I have to admit that I generally can't think of one that don't fall into the broad categories of 1. not seeing that she had other options than the nuclear one or 2. seeing the other options and dismissing them because she thought the nuclear one was better.

I didn't attribute stupidity as why she might have not seen the other options, but blindness. Pen's definitely not stupid, but even the best of us can be blind. There are other potential reasons that she might have been blind beyond stupidity and love (immaturity, for example). 

And I didn't attribute malice to why she might have deliberately chosen to risk ruin to Marina and the Featheringtons. More that she weighed the options and chose what she thought to be the least bad.

I think given who the character is, it is hard for me to buy that she was ignorant of the other possibilities that she could have pursued. Which leads me to conclude that she consciously or unconsciously decided that of the various courses of actions she could have taken she chose the one she thought was the best. 

Again, time was not so compressed that she could not come up with the option of informing Eloise and letting the chips fall where they may. If she had gone to Eloise in the first place it would have been with plenty of time for Eloise to tell other family members. There was no need for a "midnight express." We know this because Pen was able to get together with Eloise the night before LW came out, presumably after she took care of all her LW business.  And it's not like thinking of telling Eloise is a plan that takes a whole lot of deliberation to come up with or to execute. "Mama, I'm going over to the Bridgertons to see Eloise like I do basically every day." would probably get the job done.  

But telling Eloise and having Colin find out the full truth offers no guarantee that Colin wouldn't say, "Screw it, I love her and will raise another man's baby as my own." Based on his blowing off the notion that she loves another man and her general knowledge of Colin, Pen had every reason to think that Colin actually wouldn't care. She wasn't about trying to save him from being fooled. She wanted to prevent the marriage, and the one way to do that for 100 percent sure was to go nuclear and make Marina so toxic that marriage was out of the question. No matter the effect that had on everyone else,

I'm fairly sure that if Pen had directly told Eloise, Eloise and the Bridgertons would have been willing to keep Pen's name out of it. I don't think the fear that the Bridgertons would out her figured in Pen's decisionmaking at all.

[RachelKM]

18 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm fairly sure that if Pen had directly told Eloise, Eloise and the Bridgertons would have been willing to keep Pen's name out of it. I don't think the fear that the Bridgertons would out her figured in Pen's decisionmaking at all.

It really wouldn't matter if the Bridgerton's would out her.  The Bridgerton's finding out discreetly would out her.  Pen is the only one in the Featherington household with a close relationship with any of the Bridgertons.  It wouldn't take Portia 5 minutes to put it together. Conversely, there was no way on God's green earth Portia would believe Lady W was Pen.  She doesn't think enough of her to even consider it. 

There is also the cache of the information coming from Lady W.  Colin might dismiss his sister's comments without more details (which would definitely out Pen). But no one would dismiss it from the notoriously well informed Lady Whistledown.

And again, there is an assumption that because Eloise is his sister, she would have a chance to speak to Colin before he left. It's less guaranteed than you might assume. I think he still lived at the Bridgerton house, but he, as a man, would not have to return at all, much less at a reasonable hour. 

18 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But telling Eloise and having Colin find out the full truth offers no guarantee that Colin wouldn't say, "Screw it, I love her and will raise another man's baby as my own." Based on his blowing off the notion that she loves another man and her general knowledge of Colin, Pen had every reason to think that Colin actually wouldn't care. She wasn't about trying to save him from being fooled.

It is a stretch that Pen even considered that Colin would marry Marina anyway and more of one that Pen would choose her path to prevent it.  We haven't seen that Pen wanted to force his hand. Her arguments were only ever about him being lied to.  

The only way I would ascribe such high handed intentions that she wouldn't even allow Colin an informed choice she felt was wrong would be if she had told him the truth, he had said he didn't care, and then she'd made it public to force his hand. 

And blowing off a past love as not quite being put aside when you think the person also loves you is not quite the same as being lied to and tricked into marrying a woman who is pregnant with another man's child and is far enough along eventually everyone will know. A former love doesn't compel a woman to marry the way an advancing pregnancy would.

It seems Colin really believed himself in love and maybe he would have blown it off.  He at least said he would have married Marina still if she had been the one to tell him.  But even he seemed to take the being lied to part pretty personally. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by RachelKM

[Door County Cherry]

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Not really approved.  Possibly allowed.  As it turned out, she found Eloise that night in the garden anyway.  But again, communicating with Eloise did not have any significant guarantee Eloise would be able to tell Colin.

Penelope feeling she had no other option to share that information wasn't established in the show, though, was it?  This idea that she didn't know if she'd be able to see Eloise is somewhat contradicted by the fact that she did see Eloise.  And seemed to expect to be able to see Eloise.  And sure, Eloise might not have been able to talk to Colin but I'd think there's a better chance of Eloise seeing Colin than there was of Colin reading the newsletter before he left. 

In fact, there were a lot of things that could have gone wrong with Penelope's choice. She could have been robbed.  The printer could have gone down.  

So I do not agree that this is clearly the best, highest percentage option.  

Nor will I ever agree that Eloise's nascent steps into feminism or political action is a "flaw." Marina not telling Colin she's pregnant?  Sure.  I understand where she's coming from but that's a flaw.  (I've never blamed Penelope for that, though.  I blamed her sharing it with the world.) 

But even if it was considered scandalous at the time, it was necessary.  Progress is necessary and progress can be risky. 

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, Door County Cherry said:

In fact, there were a lot of things that could have gone wrong with Penelope's choice. She could have been robbed.  The printer could have gone down. 

Getting a bit far afield. But if you don't think the show sold it, I certainly won't argue that part.

2 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

Nor will I ever agree that Eloise's nascent steps into feminism or political action is a "flaw."

Who called E's feminism or political action a flaw?

[Door County Cherry]

9 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Getting a bit far afield.

I don't think it's any more far afield than any of the other spec.

9 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Who called E's feminism or political action a flaw?

It's in response to this post on this page. 

3 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

As for Penelope's flaws - it's interesting how people want to turn Marina's and Eloise's flaws into Penelope's. Penelope didn't lie about either Marina or Eloise's actions. Marina was really going to trick Colin into marrying her because she was pregnant and Eloise really was going to political rallies.

 

[RachelKM]

10 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

I don't think it's any more far afield than the Bridgertons would have thrown her into the streets if she knocked on their door.  

No one suggested that. Refusal of admittance and/or it being a scene if she was admitted is just the rules of the times. 

But whatever.  It's last season and I'm tired of the subject.

10 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

It's in response to this post on this page. 

3 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

 

I didn't read that as saying being political is a flaw.  But the way she went about it.  Maybe your read was how it was intended. 

The flaw in that I see is that Eloise was running round London's shadier side of town and spending time there without even attempting to disguise herself and yet expected there would be no consequences. Eloise was only targeted by the Queen because she was followed slipping out of a wedding and heading to the printers still in her event clothes and standing out in the open talking with Theo.  Pen including that she was engaged in politics was, though gossip worthy, diverted it from the alternative interpretation that she was meeting with Theo for assignations.

Edited March 29, 2022 by RachelKM

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

As for Penelope's flaws - it's interesting how people want to turn Marina's and Eloise's flaws into Penelope's. Penelope didn't lie about either Marina or Eloise's actions. 

Is telling the truth always right? If it were, Stasi's informers did the right thing. 

Penelope's job is a gossip columnist but, unlike others in that job, nobody knows her identity and therefore can't be wary when she is present.

Marina and Elise's case is even worse because Penelope published information about their private affairs she had got because she had a private relationship with them. If people did it regularly, life would be intolerable because one couldn't trust anybody. 

 

 

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, RachelKM said:

There is also the cache of the information coming from Lady W.  Colin might dismiss his sister's comments without more details (which would definitely out Pen). But no one would dismiss it from the notoriously well informed Lady Whistledown.

Actually it's just the opposite, whatever characters are made to believe by the author or this show. 

Only those living in the same house with Marina or otherwise intimate with her (such a seamstress) would know for sure that she is pregnant. If Lady W were somebody else than Pen, she could have heard gossip, but she would have no means make sure if they were true or not.    

[RachelKM]

14 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Only those living in the same house with Marina or otherwise intimate with her (such a seamstress) would know for sure that she is pregnant. If Lady W were somebody else than Pen, she could have heard gossip, but she would have no means make sure if they were true or not.    

As you noted, anyone in the household would know.  Lady W had proven for the whole season that she had access to many houses' secrets that had turned out to be based in fact. So, Lady W was a relied upon source. 

[Roseanna]

28 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

As you noted, anyone in the household would know.  Lady W had proven for the whole season that she had access to many houses' secrets that had turned out to be based in fact. So, Lady W was a relied upon source. 

But if Lady W weren't Penelope, she would have had no means to know if her "source" spoke true or not. Or rather, it wouldn't be likely that she could have spoken with that source herself but she would get gossip via several persons during which it could have altered to whatever (cf. children's play where somebody whispers something to another's ear and she does the same to the third person etc.).

Also, there were certainly also then persons who interpreted things in the worst light and/or spread gossip that wasn't true simply out of sheer malicity.

In short, believing that Lady W always told "the truth" is naive. Even if she knew the outer facts, she couldn't possibly know people's motives. 

I don't think that "telling the truth" is any justification for malicious behavior. I believe that people have a right to keep private matters private, unless a person has such a position that his/her private behavior influences on his/her public role.  

[RachelKM]

51 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

In short, believing that Lady W always told "the truth" is naive. Even if she knew the outer facts, she couldn't possibly know people's motives. 

Naive or not, it seems to be the way the Ton viewed Lady W. It's a central conceit of the show., that Lady W is viewed by the Ton as nearly omniscient as far as Ton gossip goes. You don't have to buy it. But it's the world of the show.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Is telling the truth always right? If it were, Stasi's informers did the right thing. 

Penelope's job is a gossip columnist but, unlike others in that job, nobody knows her identity and therefore can't be wary when she is present.

Marina and Elise's case is even worse because Penelope published information about their private affairs she had got because she had a private relationship with them. If people did it regularly, life would be intolerable because one couldn't trust anybody. 

Not quite Godwin's Law but close. And a neat way to sidestep the fact that Marina was actually planning on doing something pretty immoral.

I do agee that the fact that both Marina and Eloise revealed private information to Penelope without knowing she's Lady W is a problem. She did betray their confidences. 

But your initial contention was that Penelope's "flaws" were ruining reputations and I still maintain that no, it was Marina's own actions that ruined her reputation. Had she not attempted to trick Colin into marriage, at least that part of her reputation would remain fine. 

Similarly, had Eloise actually listened to Pen and stopped visiting the Print Shop - especially had she not decided to leave her brother's wedding to visit the shop - she would not have been in the predicament she was. Much as some want to blame Penelope, other people have agency, too.

[bubble sparkly]

For me, Pen deciding it’s okay to ruin lives as long as she’s telling the truth is made even worse by the fact that she’s a hypocritical coward. She never thinks she ought to tell the truth about herself or have her secrets outed. Part of the reason she was horrified that Eloise was hanging out with Theo is because she thought it might lead to him revealing her secret identity. A poison pen writer preaching truth and honesty is laughable.

Pen herself runs around town unchaperoned and has private meetings with lower class men,  but she never thinks dropping a tidbit like that about herself is a good way of keeping suspicion off or that the masses have the right to know that truth. She also never considers trying to lessen the blow to Eloise by saying she was going to the meetings too as some form of solidarity with her BFF. Nope, instead it’s all about how terrible Eloise is for her unchaperoned outings.

I wonder if Pen’s going to write that Colin was overheard making derisive remarks about the suggestion of courting her because she’s such a bad catch, and all the guys were laughing at her and basically implying that she’s a gross loser? I’m guessing probably not.

Its also interesting that Pen thinks she can’t possibly tell the Queen the truth because she won’t believe her, yet thinks writing a hit piece on Eloise is a sure fire plan. Like, the Queen basically threatened to thrown Eloise in the dungeon and ruin her family, and the consequences of the hit piece are apparently a better option. Why would the Queen not think that Eloise was just trying to salvage a slightly better outcome for her and her family by making a fake story up about herself. That story badmouthing Eloise coming out a few days after the Queen threatened her honestly just made Eloise look more suspicious!

[Sakura12]

15 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

That story badmouthing Eloise coming out a few days after the Queen threatened her honestly just made Eloise look more suspicious

Exactly. The Queen just told El that Lady W never writes about her, then the very next issue has a story about her. That should make the Queen more suspicious of Eloise not less. 

Pen warns El she's playing in dangerous waters, when she is on the Queen's list of suspects and just doesn't know it. She's running all over town alone at all hours of the night. People may ignore her most of the time but she's not a nobody. People know what she looks like and who she is. She's lucky the modiste didn't care why she was there, someone else might.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

I wonder if Pen’s going to write that Colin was overheard making derisive remarks about the suggestion of courting her because she’s such a bad catch, and all the guys were laughing at her and basically implying that she’s a gross loser? I’m guessing probably not.

Ooo. If Pen had also included this (Colin talking smack about Pen) in her final LW (to throw the Queen off of considering Pen as LW), would Eloise had forgiven her? Could they have cried together?

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Pen herself runs around town unchaperoned and has private meetings with lower class men,  but she never thinks dropping a tidbit like that about herself is a good way of keeping suspicion off or that the masses have the right to know that truth. She also never considers trying to lessen the blow to Eloise by saying she was going to the meetings too as some form of solidarity with her BFF.

Pen never got herself caught.*  Who knows how she would choose to deflect? But she already has written pieces that can harm her family. So she isn't all about self preservation.

The fact is that the only thing scandalous about Pen is that she is Lady W. So other than mocking her clothing and wallflower status, there isn't much to say.  And she has said both. 

And, again, Pen blunted the impact of saying Eloise was running around by emphasizing the political part which would make her a temporary object of scorn and a long-term oddity amongst the Ton, but not ruin her or her family.  Considering how her meeting with a young man in the rough side of town might have been framed, Pen went easy.

And Lady W isn't going around ruining lives as a career.  Most of the stuff she writes is relatively innocuous and the topics changing over issues helps to move attention along. And, again, I've yet to hear a single person defend Nigel Berbrooke or decry him being outed.  

*Almost by Delacroix, but she work that out herself.

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I wonder if Pen’s going to write that Colin was overheard making derisive remarks about the suggestion of courting her because she’s such a bad catch, and all the guys were laughing at her and basically implying that she’s a gross loser? I’m guessing probably not.

That's not gossip.  It's just straight mockery.  What Pen has written about is her own lack of success and her status as a wallflower. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

If Pen were to write that, it wouldn't exactly reflect well on either Colin or the other men involved, so I am not sure what that would prove.

At the end of the day, RachelKM's right - Eloise's life isn't ruined. Heck, even Marina's life wasn't ruined, even if Marina didn't get everything she wanted in the way she wanted. If Penelope were truly cruel, she could have made life a lit worse for both of them. 

Again, I think there are reasons to be critical of Penelope. But that doesn't mean that she's responsible for the mistakes other people make.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

Pen never got herself caught.*  Who knows how she would choose to deflect? But she already has written pieces that can harm her family. So she isn't all about self preservation.

The fact is that the only thing scandalous about Pen is that she is Lady W. So other than mocking her clothing and wallflower status, there isn't much to say.  And she has said both. 

And, again, Pen blunted the impact of saying Eloise was running around by emphasizing the political part which would make her a temporary object of scorn and a long-term oddity amongst the Ton, but not ruin her or her family.  Considering how her meeting with a young man in the rough side of town might have been framed, Pen went easy.

And Lady W isn't going around ruining lives as a career.  Most of the stuff she writes is relatively innocuous and the topics changing over issues helps to move attention along. And, again, I've yet to hear a single person defend Nigel Berbrooke or decry him being outed.  

*Almost by Delacroix, but she work that out herself.

That's not gossip.  It's just straight mockery.  What Pen has written about is her own lack of success and her status as a wallflower. 

The fact that Pen has only been caught twice (by Delacroix and now Eloise) is a bit of writers' fiat. The Queen easily could and should have caught her, and obviously the printer knows at least that someone fitting Pen's description has been meeting with him and would be able to likely link anyone who asked to Pen.

The pieces that we know of that she has written about her family included a slam on Lady Featherington as tasteless (which is something that was well-known already and wasn't going to do any additional harm) and the Marina is preggers piece (which she felt backed into a corner about). 

LW is absolutely writing what she hears and letting the chips fall where they may. If that means lives are ruined, so be it. We've only heard (mostly) about what she has written about the Featheringtons and the Bridgertons, and fortunately, they have managed to survive and even thrive against the backdrop of scandals that they were involved in. It's a safe assumption that not all are so lucky. The show went out of its way to portray Nigel Berbrooke as an ass who basically got what was coming to him, and so far, every item that LW has written about has been 100 percent accurate. Again, it is a fairly safe assumption that at some point LW would have printed items that were untrue or that seriously harmed someone innocent or both. That's just the nature of gossip rags.  

48 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

If Pen were to write that, it wouldn't exactly reflect well on either Colin or the other men involved, so I am not sure what that would prove.

At the end of the day, RachelKM's right - Eloise's life isn't ruined. Heck, even Marina's life wasn't ruined, even if Marina didn't get everything she wanted in the way she wanted. If Penelope were truly cruel, she could have made life a lit worse for both of them. 

Again, I think there are reasons to be critical of Penelope. But that doesn't mean that she's responsible for the mistakes other people make.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Pen is responsible for the mistakes other people make. I think people are saying that when she writes her columns and exposes people's activities, either she does it without knowing/caring the impact that exposure might have on people or she does it knowing/caring the impact it might have. I don't know if either is a particularly good look. And that is increased when we're talking about exposing serious things about people she purportedly cares about.

Yes, everything turned out pretty much rosy for Colin, Marina and the Featheringtons and everything will probably turn out fine for Eloise. Indeed, one can argue that the publicity about the situation motivated Daphne to act, and help bring about a semi-happy ending for Marina that she quite possibly would not have had otherwise. 

But particularly with Marina, it would have been more realistic to expect a far worse outcome because of her actions: Marina reduced to living on the streets, the Featheringtons shunned and Pen and her sisters spinsters, Colin and the Bridgertons left laughingstocks. Indeed, Marina attempted to abort her child. Weighing those kinds of negative consequences against the possible harm she avoided (Colin getting duped into a marriage that, from all accounts, he would have been content with had he known the truth), it seems hard to justify Pen's approach. And then when you consider she had time to pursue the alternative of not going nuclear and having Colin make an informed choice about whether he wanted to go through with the wedding, it is IMO even less justifiable.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Pen is responsible for the mistakes other people make. I think people are saying that when she writes her columns and exposes people's activities, either she does it without knowing/caring the impact that exposure might have on people or she does it knowing/caring the impact it might have. I don't know if either is a particularly good look. And that is increased when we're talking about exposing serious things about people she purportedly cares about.

Yes, everything turned out pretty much rosy for Colin, Marina and the Featheringtons and everything will probably turn out fine for Eloise. Indeed, one can argue that the publicity about the situation motivated Daphne to act, and help bring about a semi-happy ending for Marina that she quite possibly would not have had otherwise. 

But particularly with Marina, it would have been more realistic to expect a far worse outcome because of her actions: Marina reduced to living on the streets, the Featheringtons shunned and Pen and her sisters spinsters, Colin and the Bridgertons left laughingstocks. Indeed, Marina attempted to abort her child. Weighing those kinds of negative consequences against the possible harm she avoided (Colin getting duped into a marriage that, from all accounts, he would have been content with had he known the truth), it seems hard to justify Pen's approach. And then when you consider she had time to pursue the alternative of not going nuclear and having Colin make an informed choice about whether he wanted to go through with the wedding, it is IMO even less justifiable.

In fact, we know that is not the case because the show has shown us in both cases that Penelope agonized about taking this option, tried to take alternative routes, and cried in both cases when she did resort to using Lady W. The text of the show is exactly opposite to the idea she "doesn't know or care about the impact" her writing has.

As for her approach not being justified re Marina - IMO, this is again Penelope being blamed for Marina's failure of character. Marina was going to do something despicable - trick someone into parenthood. She was lying to Colin and she was going to trick him. Now, was Marina in a desperate situation but waiving away the nature of Marina's actions is so strange to me. Penelope was justified IMO in saving her friend from a bad situation. She perhaps could have chosen a different method but it was Marina's initial actions that got them into the situation in the first place, not Pen's.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

In fact, we know that is not the case because the show has shown us in both cases that Penelope agonized about taking this option, tried to take alternative routes, and cried in both cases when she did resort to using Lady W. The text of the show is exactly opposite to the idea she "doesn't know or care about the impact" her writing has.

As for her approach not being justified re Marina - IMO, this is again Penelope being blamed for Marina's failure of character. Marina was going to do something despicable - trick someone into parenthood. She was lying to Colin and she was going to trick him. Now, was Marina in a desperate situation but waiving away the nature of Marina's actions is so strange to me. Penelope was justified IMO in saving her friend from a bad situation. She perhaps could have chosen a different method but it was Marina's initial actions that got them into the situation in the first place, not Pen's.

I think it's inherently true that for any given bit of gossip that Pen reveals, either she does understand/care about the potential impact printing it could have or she doesn't.

In the case of "Marina is pregnant," I agree that she did know/care but saw it revealing it as the lesser of two evils. For others, she might not fully care/understand.

I think it is fair to criticize her for thinking revealing the secret was the lesser of two evils when revealing the secret could literally lead to the baby being aborted, Marina being forced into a life on the streets, etc. Yes, Marina would have brought that on herself through her behavior and been reaping what she sowed. It is not forgiving Marina for her behavior or her own responsibility to say that Pen should consider the possible/probable ramifications of her choices on others.

I disagree that she "tried to take alternative routes" with the Marina is pregnant. She took the one alternative route of telling Colin that Marina was in love with someone else. She did not take the obvious alternative route that was readily available to her of telling Eloise. We can speculate all day long as to why she didn't. But I would rule out such explanations as she didn't have time to do it (because she clearly had time to talk to Eloise even after doing all the stuff she had to do to get the column printed) or she didn't think of it (because telling Eloise is a pretty obvious alternative, and Pen is a bright girl.).  I'm left with the notion that it was more important to Pen to nuke the possibility that Colin would marry Marina under any circumstances than it was to simply allow Colin to make an informed choice as to whether he should marry a lying ho. 

[quarks]

Scattered thoughts:

1. To a certain extent, the friendship between Penelope and Eloise appears to have been created by circumstances. They don't seem to be particularly popular among their peers, or close to their sisters, so it's "Hey, you're alone too! And different! Let's hang out!"

 Which might help explain why Penelope doesn't seem to get just how important all of this hanging around with radicals is to Eloise, and why Eloise in turn never notices or figures out that Penelope has one major crush on Colin, given that Penelope isn't really trying to hide that. 

2. The financial situation.  Penelope has spent two seasons now watching her family frequently find themselves unable to pay their bills and having to delay one marriage because of that lack of money, to the point where some of them have become desperate enough to try to fix wagers, getting themselves killed as a result, sell off family possessions, get engaged without even the slightest bit of affection on either side, and con their acquaintances. And while a lot of that is thanks to her family's habit of spending money as soon as they have any (see, Penelope pointing out that they probably don't need all of the dresses/servants) she's still living in a house facing constant financial stress, with no guarantee that she'll have a roof over her head, especially if the title/house is inherited by an even more unpleasant cousin.

On top of that, Penelope has heard, again and again, that she has zero prospects of marriage - and not just from her mother. She might be able to find a home with the slightly nicer sister (the one who got married this season), assuming that Lord Featherington number 2 handed over at least some money, but it's rather clear that the other sister won't welcome her at all. 

So protecting her identity as Lady Whistledown isn't just a choice; it's a matter of financial survival. It's not clear to me how much Penelope has earned from this on the show, but presumably it's not enough to support her for the rest of her life. At least not yet. And she doesn't seem to have many other options.

(Well, Colin, I guess, but Colin isn't exactly presenting himself as an option.)

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Marina was going to do something despicable - trick someone into parenthood. She was lying to Colin and she was going to trick him. Now, was Marina in a desperate situation but waiving away the nature of Marina's actions is so strange to me. Penelope was justified IMO in saving her friend from a bad situation. She perhaps could have chosen a different method but it was Marina's initial actions that got them into the situation in the first place, not Pen's.

You forget the society where women became pariah having a child outside the marriage whereas men were not. 

Under the circumstances, if a woman had to chose between letting her child to be born illegitimate and poor as well as very likely forcing her to abandon it or giving her child a status and wealth by tricking a man to marriage, I for one don't blame her for choosing her child. 

[GaT]

2 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

You forget the society where women became pariah having a child outside the marriage whereas men were not. 

Under the circumstances, if a woman had to chose between letting her child to be born illegitimate and poor as well as very likely forcing her to abandon it or giving her child a status and wealth by tricking a man to marriage, I for one don't blame her for choosing her child. 

Also, that's exactly what Lady Featherington was trying to do for Marina, find a man she could trick into marriage. 

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

You forget the society where women became pariah having a child outside the marriage whereas men were not. 

Under the circumstances, if a woman had to chose between letting her child to be born illegitimate and poor as well as very likely forcing her to abandon it or giving her child a status and wealth by tricking a man to marriage, I for one don't blame her for choosing her child. 

Literally no one forgets this and if they tried, the show made sure to beat the drum.  And it makes what Marina was doing understandable, not right. Two things narratively prejudice the audience toward Marina, 1) the unfairness of the situation particularly to 21st century sensibilities and 2) the amount of POV given to Marina as opposed to Colin (or even Pen, though she gets some.) The story invites us to sympathize with her and to view Colin as a sweet dupe but little else.  He is given almost no POV. 

But, for all of Marina's troubles, Colin is a person who is being tricked.  He thinks Marina cares for him. Not only would he have quickly learned she tricked him, but he would be exposed to all manner of ridicule because there is no way anyone would believe he was the father.  Marina was pregnant before coming to town. Even if she was only a few weeks along when she arrived and even claiming the baby was premature would mean Colin would had to have slept with her in the first weeks of her arrival while she was still sitting with half the men in town in her parlor and they then inexplicably dicked around for two or three months before becoming engaged and then up and eloped anyway.  It's ludicrous and even the most credulous of the Ton would be hard pressed to buy it. 

Marina isn't a villain. But she also isn't a heroine. She planned to use Colin. Was it for the sake of her future? Sure. But it wasn't a harmless little lie to be ignored or without consequences, many beyond herself and some to be still borne by her child(ren). 

[Roseanna]

58 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Literally no one forgets this and if they tried, the show made sure to beat the drum.  And it makes what Marina was doing understandable, not right. Two things narratively prejudice the audience toward Marina, 1) the unfairness of the situation particularly to 21st century sensibilities and 2) the amount of POV given to Marina as opposed to Colin (or even Pen, though she gets some.) The story invites us to sympathize with her and to view Colin as a sweet dupe but little else.  He is given almost no POV. 

But, for all of Marina's troubles, Colin is a person who is being tricked.  He thinks Marina cares for him. Not only would he have quickly learned she tricked him, but he would be exposed to all manner of ridicule because there is no way anyone would believe he was the father.  Marina was pregnant before coming to town. Even if she was only a few weeks along when she arrived and even claiming the baby was premature would mean Colin would had to have slept with her in the first weeks of her arrival while she was still sitting with half the men in town in her parlor and they then inexplicably dicked around for two or three months before becoming engaged and then up and eloped anyway.  It's ludicrous and even the most credulous of the Ton would be hard pressed to buy it. 

Marina isn't a villain. But she also isn't a heroine. She planned to use Colin. Was it for the sake of her future? Sure. But it wasn't a harmless little lie to be ignored or without consequences, many beyond herself and some to be still borne by her child(ren). 

Of course a woman who, while pregnant to another, tricks a man to marry her acts wrongly. But she acts wrongly also if she lets her child to be born illegitimate, thus robbing it possibilities to a good life and/or abandons it at birth. So the crux of the matter isn't a choice between right or wrong but a choice to act wrongly towards a grown-up man or towards one's own helpless child. 

In Marina's case, however, the narration gave her other options: even if she didn't like the old man who Lady F tried to marry her off, she could have written to her lover's brother who had already proposed to her.

As for the society laughing to Colin if the baby would have born "too early", that was hardly unusual and would be eventually forgotten. F.eg. Winston Churchill was born seven months after his parents' marriage.

Why should a character be either a hero(ine) or villain? Marina is a far more interesting character than all the Bridgertons together because she has real problems. 

[Ohiopirate02]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Of course a woman who, while pregnant to another, tricks a man to marry her acts wrongly. But she acts wrongly also if she lets her child to be born illegitimate, thus robbing it possibilities to a good life and/or abandons it at birth. So the crux of the matter isn't a choice between right or wrong but a choice to act wrongly towards a grown-up man or towards one's own helpless child. 

In Marina's case, however, the narration gave her other options: even if she didn't like the old man who Lady F tried to marry her off, she could have written to her lover's brother who had already proposed to her.

As for the society laughing to Colin if the baby would have born "too early", that was hardly unusual and would be eventually forgotten. F.eg. Winston Churchill was born seven months after his parents' marriage.

Why should a character be either a hero(ine) or villain? Marina is a far more interesting character than all the Bridgertons together because she has real problems. 

Yeah, as long as the couple is married no one questions or snickers about a full-term baby being born "prematurely."  Marina would not be the first woman of the Ton who's first child came less than six months after getting married or who's husband is not the biological father of the first baby.  It does get a bit sticky that Marina was willing to trick Colin into the marriage.  Denying him the choice is shitty, but Marina was a young woman facing a grim future without a husband.  She panicked.  

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I think we could debate this to the end of time but IMO we were not shown her panicking. We were shown her calculating with Lady Featherington about how she could trap the guy she wanted.

She had other options but she wanted what SHE wanted. Panicking would have entailed acting more rashly, not calmly devising a plan to trick Colin. (IMO, she did panic when she took the herbs that she thought would lead to an abortion. But everything before that wasn't panic, IMO).

And yes, I absolutely think that Lady Featherington was in the wrong for coming up with schemes to help Marina entrap Colin. The fact that Lady F. acted in a morally suspect way doesn't make Marina's actions any more acceptable, though. (I mean, Lady F. is a schemer - I think that this season shows that we aren't exactly supposed to look at her as some sort of moral compass).

Edited March 30, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[shapeshifter]

Having been a single mother, I imagine Marina's inner thoughts differently. 

But the thread is about LW "friend or foe," and LW was definitely not a friend to Marina, even if Pen was.

Colin saying he would have married Marina if she had been honest with him (and I remembering that correctly?) seems like a bunch of poppycock writing to me, but if Colin really would have, I think it makes LW's meddling without merit, and Pen should lay down her pen, or at least go for writing fiction a la Austen.
 

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Yeah, as long as the couple is married no one questions or snickers about a full-term baby being born "prematurely."  Marina would not be the first woman of the Ton who's first child came less than six months after getting married or who's husband is not the biological father of the first baby. 

A six month full term would be overlooked, less so for definitely not the husband's child.  "Anticipating" the marriage wasn't approved of. But it was politely overlooked as long as the participants followed the rules and got married. Everyone would live the fiction and play along. 

A child demonstrably not the husbands didn't get quite as much grace.  Even suspected not the husband's might cause some snickers or speculation.  But where the were no question to anyone who could count, the whispers would persist and possible scorn from some sources would persist.

If Marina had married Colin within the first month or so of being in town, they likely would have gotten by with no more than mild speculation that would die down or be fully overtaken by the next scandal.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Having been a single mother, I imagine Marina's inner thoughts differently. 

But the thread is about LW "friend or foe," and LW was definitely not a friend to Marina, even if Pen was.

Colin saying he would have married Marina if she had been honest with him (and I remembering that correctly?) seems like a bunch of poppycock writing to me, but if Colin really would have, I think it makes LW's meddling without merit, and Pen should lay down her pen, or at least go for writing fiction a la Austen.
 

Colin definitely said he would have overlooked it if she had been honest with him.

I think that he was being sincere about that, as evidenced by

• him generally seemingly an honest/straightforward/sweet character as portrayed in the show (i.e. he has never seemed to attempt to deceive anyone except if you stretch the definition to include his potential elopement)
• him being so deeply in love with Marina
• him being unphased by Pen telling him that Marina was in love with someone else, something that would have at least given some pause to most other men and
• him still sniffing around Marina in S2 and was like, "But are you happy?" and "Do you ever wonder what if...?" 

Now one could argue that Pen wouldn't have known that Colin would have been cool with Marina trying to rope him into marriage. I don't buy that because she KNOWS Colin. She was well aware of how in love he was, what a sweet guy he was, and above all how he didn't care that Marina was in love with someone else. My take is that Pen knew that he would have shrugged off the revelation that Marina was pregnant, and that is why she opted for the nuclear option. It wasn't about preventing Colin from being tricked into marriage. It was about preventing the marriage, period.

[RachelKM]

11 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Now one could argue that Pen wouldn't have known that Colin would have been cool with Marina trying to rope him into marriage. I don't buy that because she KNOWS Colin. She was well aware of how in love he was, what a sweet guy he was, and above all how he didn't care that Marina was in love with someone else. My take is that Pen knew that he would have shrugged off the revelation that Marina was pregnant, and that is why she opted for the nuclear option. It wasn't about preventing Colin from being tricked into marriage. It was about preventing the marriage, period.

To be clear, Colin said he would have understood if Marina had been honest with him. I think he was being sincere.  Of course, it's easy to say that when you have another reason to be mad. But even then, Colin never said he was cool with being lied to about it.  

And to me, his fishing question about "what if...?" says that Colin still didn't understand that Marina never loved him. She liked him and believed he would be kind.  Colin marrying Marina, finding out that she was pregnant, had to get married, and only found him sweet would be a huge blow and likely would have affected their relationship.

And presuming that Pen expected that Colin would be cool with that much deceit and heartbreak is a stretch.  I don't even believe he would have and I have the benefit of audience omniscience. And it's not like they could simply divorce if it went badly.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I think we could debate this to the end of time but IMO we were not shown her panicking. We were shown her calculating with Lady Featherington about how she could trap the guy she wanted.

She had other options but she wanted what SHE wanted. Panicking would have entailed acting more rashly, not calmly devising a plan to trick Colin. (IMO, she did panic when she took the herbs that she thought would lead to an abortion. But everything before that wasn't panic, IMO).

Who wouldn't have chosen Colin over that old man Lady W suggested? The real options was to write to her lover's brother who had proposed to her.

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, Roseanna said:

Who wouldn't have chosen Colin over that old man Lady W suggested? The real options was to write to her lover's brother who had proposed to her.

As I said above, I don't really fault Marina.  But she made many decisions that made her situation more tenuous and never even opted to seek assistance from her own family or George's. 

So there were paths other than dupe the sweet puppy you're reasonably sure will, however hurt, never kick you out despite there being no doubt he and everyone would discover the truth only when it was too late. 

Pen was faced with allowing Marina to ruin Colin's life (again, the lies alone would do damage) or ruining Marina's.  She prioritized Colin.  Was it because she believes herself in love with him? Almost certainly. But that doesn't mean she did it for herself rather than him. 

From Pen's perspective, she had a trolley problem and she chose take action and save the loved one over inactivity and preserving the other.  She lucked out to the extent that Marian had a much better outcome than even if she had married Colin under false pretenses -  she married a kind man who knew and accepted the situation and her son is legitimate and will inherit the title he would have if he real father had married her.  That isn't to Pen's credit.  But it shows there were other choices for Marina too. 

[Roseanna]

39 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Colin definitely said he would have overlooked it if she had been honest with him.

I think that he was being sincere about that, as evidenced by

• him generally seemingly an honest/straightforward/sweet character as portrayed in the show (i.e. he has never seemed to attempt to deceive anyone except if you stretch the definition to include his potential elopement)
• him being so deeply in love with Marina
• him being unphased by Pen telling him that Marina was in love with someone else, something that would have at least given some pause to most other men and
• him still sniffing around Marina in S2 and was like, "But are you happy?" and "Do you ever wonder what if...?" 

Now one could argue that Pen wouldn't have known that Colin would have been cool with Marina trying to rope him into marriage. I don't buy that because she KNOWS Colin. She was well aware of how in love he was, what a sweet guy he was, and above all how he didn't care that Marina was in love with someone else. My take is that Pen knew that he would have shrugged off the revelation that Marina was pregnant, and that is why she opted for the nuclear option. It wasn't about preventing Colin from being tricked into marriage. It was about preventing the marriage, period.

 

8 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

To be clear, Colin said he would have understood if Marina had been honest with him. I think he was being sincere.  Of course, it's easy to say that when you have another reason to be mad. But even then, Colin never said he was cool with being lied to about it.  

And to me, his fishing question about "what if...?" says that Colin still didn't understand that Marina never loved him. She liked him and believed he would be kind.  Colin marrying Marina, finding out that she was pregnant, had to get married, and only found him sweet would be a huge blow and likely would have affected their relationship.

And presuming that Pen expected that Colin would be cool with that much deceit and heartbreak is a stretch.  I don't even believe he would have and I have the benefit of audience omniscience. And it's not like they could simply divorce if it went badly.

When Pen told Colin that Marina didn't love him, that didn't disturb him but he was still willing to elope with him. The reason could be either that he didn't believe Pen or he did believe but believed that his love was enough and/or Marina would eventually grow to love him. 

On the basis of this incident, Pen anticipated that if she or Eloise told about Marina's pregnancy, there was a chance that Colin would have forgiven Marina. The only possibility to prevent the marriage was to make the matter public.

I don't interpret Colin's question "what if..." mean about Marina's love but on the contrary that he had regretted that because of the public scandal he had caused their separation. Evidently he loved her so much that if they had married, he would have forgiven even her deceit (yes, there were such men!).

Luckily Marina did the right thing and prevented Colin to cling to the past.

[Chicago Redshirt]

32 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

To be clear, Colin said he would have understood if Marina had been honest with him. I think he was being sincere.  Of course, it's easy to say that when you have another reason to be mad. But even then, Colin never said he was cool with being lied to about it.  

And to me, his fishing question about "what if...?" says that Colin still didn't understand that Marina never loved him. She liked him and believed he would be kind.  Colin marrying Marina, finding out that she was pregnant, had to get married, and only found him sweet would be a huge blow and likely would have affected their relationship.

And presuming that Pen expected that Colin would be cool with that much deceit and heartbreak is a stretch.  I don't even believe he would have and I have the benefit of audience omniscience. And it's not like they could simply divorce if it went badly.

The relevant questions are:

How would Colin reacted if he knew Marina was with child prior to eloping?

How did Pen think Colin would have reacted if he knew Marina was with child prior to eloping?

Why didn't Pen get word to Colin that Marina was with child prior to him eloping?

I think the only reasonable answers to the first two are:

Colin would have still gone ahead with the marriage because he was a good guy and so in love with Marina.

Pen knew that Colin would have still gone ahead with the marriage.

The third is more ambiguous.

YMMV but I reject the notion that Pen didn't have time to do anything else, or that she wasn't smart enough to come up with the option of getting word to Colin to prevent him from being tricked into marriage for the reasons stated above.

The answer I've landed on -- that she wanted to eradicate the possibility that Colin marry Marina, no matter what it might cost Marina, Colin, her family or anyone -- is the only one that makes sense to me. But I'm happy to hear other potential explanations.

[RachelKM]

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

When Pen told Colin that Marina didn't love him, that didn't disturb him but he was still willing to elope with him.

Pen never said Marina didn't love him. Pen told him Marina wasn't over her first love and as confirmation she says "I have seen her letters."  Colin replied " Did you think I would care that she had fond feelings before we met?" Then he mentions it would be hypocritical of him since he had "flirted with have the girls in the country."  When Pen says it was more than flirting, that Marina loved him, Colin replies "And yet she's marrying me."  And then he says "I know my mind and Marina's."  

The fact is that he doesn't know Marina's mind. He thinks that 1) Pen is sweetly warning him out of mistaken belief that prior love letters prove Marina still loves George; 2) if Marina loved George still, she would have no reason to want to marry him, and 3) therefore Marina, at minimum, wants to marry him for himself and likely for love.  All of these assumptions are incorrect.  And before Pen can say anymore, Marina interrupts them. 

Marina sends Pen back into the drawing room claiming her mother asked for her and as soon as Pen leaves, Marina starts in on how her father doesn't want her and the Featheringtons want her gone and she wishes they could be married the next minute and then they could be alone together and she'd never have to leave his arms.  Colin, dupe that he is, immediately suggests Gretna Green.  Marina says she loves the idea and then to Colin "I love you."

It's the literal next night (per Lady Featherington's dialogue, "Not a day after Ms. Thompson's announcement and they all come crawling") that Pen finds proof that her mother forged George's letter and takes it to Marina only to learn that Marina has her bags packed for Gretna the following morning.  Marina defends her choice to go forward because Colin will never turn her out. When Pen asks "What about Colin?" Marina deflect with Pen's feelings and goes on to harshly point out the Colin doesn't return her feelings utterly side stepping that she doesn't return his and will break his heart. 

@Chicago Redshirt Yeah, I'm aware that you reject the notion that Pen had no other choices.  Just like I reject the notion the Colin would have been fine with the lies as it is the opposite of what he said.  He said it was the lie that he couldn't accept (and he apparently still didn't understand Marina didn't love him... so that would have been worse).

I'm getting off this particular merry-go-round as to those subjects.  At least with the same people with the same argument. 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by RachelKM

[eleanorofaquitaine]

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

To be clear, Colin said he would have understood if Marina had been honest with him. I think he was being sincere.  Of course, it's easy to say that when you have another reason to be mad. But even then, Colin never said he was cool with being lied to about it.  

And to me, his fishing question about "what if...?" says that Colin still didn't understand that Marina never loved him. She liked him and believed he would be kind.  Colin marrying Marina, finding out that she was pregnant, had to get married, and only found him sweet would be a huge blow and likely would have affected their relationship.

I think that this is an important point and probably the point of the sequence of Colin visiting Marina. What he sees is that Marina is content with Sir Philip and that's basically all their relationship would have been, too. Marina of course would have also been content with Colin but that basically means his relationship with Marina was the same as Philip's relationship with her. She wasn't in love with Colin and the fact that they aren't together is no great sacrifice for her.

It's important for him to see that in order for him to move on.

But to your point, I think that it casts a light on how their relationship would have gone had they gone ahead and gotten married. There wouldn't be a solid enough foundation to build their marriage because it wasn't built on love and was built on lies. We saw how lies and secrets almost destroyed Simon and Daphne's marriage and they actually did love each other. It's unlikely Colin and Marina would have had a happy marriage once he figured out what was up.

Also, it's worth noting that Colin is the third, untitled son who was planning to elope and therefore risking being cut off from funds (whether or something Anthony would actually do that is another question). A marriage built on lies with shaky finances isn't really a relationship built to last.

[Door County Cherry]

3 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

What he sees is that Marina is content with Sir Philip and that's basically all their relationship would have been, too. Marina of course would have also been content with Colin but that basically means his relationship with Marina was the same as Philip's relationship with her.

Except Marina was going to choose Colin out of her options.  She really didn't get to choose Phillip.  I don't think Colin would look at that situation and see himself in it.

Not that he knows their situation.  Or us, for that matter.  

[LadyChaos]

I think part of the problem with LW is that you can tell she writes more than what we as the audience hear being told to us. Her scandal sheets are sometimes 3-4-5 pages long, yet we're only hearing a few sentences about the people we're directly watching about. Because of this, what we know is very skewed, but chances are 90% of what Penelope writes is probably just musings, speculation, and non-sense. There are also dozens of other scandal sheets besides Lady Wistledown, its just that her's is more interesting and taken as more accurate than others.  We also have to remember that outside of Marina and Eloise...most of what Penelope wrote is gossip she overhears, which means most of her money is being made from her writing down what other people are already talking about. Even Burbrook was just something she overheard and wasn't witnessed to herself....

So, most of what she is doing is innocuous and it probably started as a clever way for her to make money and gain independence. I imagine Pen thinks no one will every marry her, so this was her way to making money to eventually support herself to get away from her mother's control.

It turned into something else the moment she shared the rumor of Burbrook. But really, before then she was just another scandal sheet people were amused by. If Burbrook himself, hadn't left for the country which confirmed the rumor to be true....most people probably would've dismissed it for a rumor and it ignored it....but that gave LW more power than I think Penelope ever thought she would really have.

With Marina....I do think Penelope was acting in the best interest of Colin. She tried to get her mom to stop it, tried to get Marina to stop it, tried to warn Colin that Marina didn't love him and he dismissed it. I think Penelope knew that if she told him outright, or told Eloise to tell him...it wouldn't have mattered in the sense that it is very hard for a man to call off an engagement without scandal. So I think Penelope outing Marina was a way she saw to protect Colin because if Colin called off the engagement he would've damaged his and his families reputation....but if Marina was exposed than Colin would've been the innocent injured party, and their family would've recovered from the scandel a lot easier.

And Eloise...again it will be easier for Eloise to come back from the scandal of 'cavorting with political radicals' than it would've been for her to come back from: being alone with a man from the 'wrong side of town'.  I mean, really....to protect herself, really Pen didn't have to do anything at all...she could've let the entire Bridgerton family be ruined. But she chose the path that allowed her to protect herself, her family, and incur the least amount of damage to the Bridgerton family. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by LadyChaos

[Guest]

I don't think Pen as LW is a hero or a villain. She's a complex character. I do think the focus on how she does it hurt this season - it didn't seem realistic at all (as expected) but it was like they thought by showing us it would seem realistic.

[LadyChaos]

50 minutes ago, deaja said:

I don't think Pen as LW is a hero or a villain. She's a complex character. I do think the focus on how she does it hurt this season - it didn't seem realistic at all (as expected) but it was like they thought by showing us it would seem realistic.

Yeah....I don't think she is hero or villain either....I just think she is human and this probably snowballed for her....I don't imagine when she chose to write the first LW she really expected things to go the way she did.....

I haven't read past the first book yet, but it sounds like it made more sense, from what Im hearing, in the books....then what the show did for no other reason than drama....

[Door County Cherry]

7 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

So, most of what she is doing is innocuous and it probably started as a clever way for her to make money and gain independence. I imagine Pen thinks no one will every marry her, so this was her way to making money to eventually support herself to get away from her mother's control.

The fact that people make her sheet the first thing they read tells me that the gossip she writes is being taken seriously and not full of stuff they already know. 

The gossip she gleans is partially from observation and partially from listening to servants.  It takes something that might be shared amongst a few servants and turns it into something everyone knows.  

I don't think we can say that the negative consequences just happen to have happened to the people we've seen. That would be astonishingly against the odds. But this is probably the closest she has been to witnessing the aftermath of what she writes. 

[Starry-Eyed]

I think what a lot of people, including Eloise, haven't considered about Pen/LW's "betrayal" in the second season is what would have happened if Pen WASN'T LW?

Eloise is angry about LW revealing her outings to the print shop, and acts as though no one would have found out if Pen didn't betray her confidence... but the Queen already knew about them.  Pen also didn't cause that situation at all, and even tried on multiple occasions to stop Eloise from going. 

If LW had been a rando who did not know or care about Eloise and the Queen suspecting her, and so doesn't write something calculated to be too damning to be self-resported but not damning enough to actually ruin Eloise, then this is what happens in my view:

Eloise tries to pass herself off as Whistledown to the Queen, possibly even publishing a column announcing that she is Whistledown.

This inevitably fails when the real LW writes a response.

The Queen becomes infuriated, taking her rage at being foiled by LW once again and mixing it with justifiable outrage at Eloise lying to her queen (aaaawfully close to actual treason), and retaliates at Eloise and her family.

There is absolutely zero chance in this scenario that the Queen keeps Eloise's real scandalous secret of visiting the print shop. The BEST case that Eloise can hope for is that the Queen makes that public and people draw their own conclusions - which will mostly be harsher that the interpretation Pen as LW puts on them. The worst case is that Eloise is charged with an actual crime against the crown. The somewhere in between that is most likely is that the Queen actively works against the entire Bridgerton family. Anthony and Daphne, already holding their titles, one male and the other married, can probably whether the storm in a a decade or so. The younger brothers MIGHT recover in time if the Bridgertons make smart recovery choices. All the futures of the unmarried daughters are completely destroyed.

Did Pen do the kindest, most ethical thing for her best friend? Absolutely not. The real kind, selfless thing to do would have been to unmask herself.  But the only reason that option was even on the table is because LW WAS Eloise's best friend. Can you imagine someone like Madame Delacroix or Lady Danbury even considering subjecting themselves to that to rescue Eloise out of her own mess? Let alone someone actually mean-spirited like Cressida Cowper.

Pen had a choice. She could do absolutely nothing and let her best friend destroy her own life and that of her whole family. She could sacrifice her own future - her reputation, her hard-won financial security, the only outlet that makes her feel seen and worthwhile - to fix a problem she had nothing to do with the making of. Or she could find a middle road that caused the person who created the situation to suffer, but to suffer much less than she could have done.

 

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, Starry-Eyed said:

I think what a lot of people, including Eloise, haven't considered about Pen/LW's "betrayal" in the second season is what would have happened if Pen WASN'T LW?

But she is.  The only reason lw exists is because Penelope invented her.  I think that's the trouble I have with the hypothetical because it involves assuming there'd be another gossip sheet taken as seriously as lw is taken, and that author would know about Eloise's trips and the Queen would be in search of the author which is what led the Queen to discovering Eloise's trips. 

But Penelope, as lw, doesn't know about the trips because she spotted Eloise or followed her; she knows about the trips because Eloise is her friend. And that's how she knew about Marina. 

Penelope gets her gossip from the servants. 

[katha]

Yeah, Penelope invented LW and did so banking on the fact that she can use both servant gossip and people/friends/family unwittingly telling her things that she can then use for her writing. Betraying confidences is her business model. Saying that she could have been even worse about that and hurt people even more than she already did, I don't know how much that carries tbh. And I do think at this point Pen has become rather conflicted about parts of what she is doing as well, recognizing that she is furthering the toxicity of a society that she claims to mock. 

I do think some of it is also their decision to make LW so much more malicious than she is in the books. Having her ruin lives makes for fun drama, but they don't seem quite committed to have that conflict play out with Penelope. And adding to that, while NC is great she also does not look like a teenager at all IMO. Penelope being a teen who starts the LW enterprise without quite realizing what the consequences will be and then also making decisions in the impetous way teenagers are wont to do would make her actions more understandable. But since Nicola reads as adult and making these decisions in a more calculated fashion...

[RachelKM]

10 hours ago, katha said:

I do think some of it is also their decision to make LW so much more malicious than she is in the books.

To me, this is nearly all of the issue, though I still wouldn't call it malicious. She is more biting in the show.  And I don't recall any scandal being disclosed that involved or was on par with outing an unmarried pregnant woman in the book. She stuck to snark and innuendo.

This has been a big failing for me in the translation of LW. In trying to up the scandal and salaciousness of the gossip for Shondaland, they drastically upped the ante on LW subject matters. 

However, I also think that another problem is the limited view of LW we actually get.  You noted her business model is betraying confidences.  And it really isn't.  She has done that twice that we know of and it seems as though those were the only times and under very specific circumstances.  But they were so substantial and central to the plots and we hear so little of the other things she writes about, it gives the impression that that is what she does generally.

As shown in the last episode when she whispered gossip to Eloise, her business model is listening to things said around her because people, even servants, barely notice her.  This is also in line with the books. And honestly, betraying confidences would not work if she did do it regularly,  Eventually, those close to her would put it together if things shared in confidence kept popping up in LW.  It's not like Pen has tons of friends who confide in her. 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by RachelKM

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I rather think her real business model is closely watching society and translating her observations. Most of what we hear from her on the show is not repeated confidences or soilling secrets. It is that she puts society's events into some context. In other words, she's a good writer. 

I'm of two minds about changing LW from the books. On the one hand, it means that yes, by the time we get to her story, some portion of the audience will likely dislike her. But on the other, it makes it a more interesting, emotionally rich story to have the stakes higher. 

[Door County Cherry]

This isn't a book thread.  Please spoil tag discussion of the book or take it to the book talk thread.

[andromeda331]

I really have a hard time seeing Penelope as Lady Whistledown. I really do like her. It's also hard for me to see the Penelope who's nice, didn't know where babies come from and treated like crap by her family is writing the pamplet outing people's secrets and has the Queen hunting her down. It really would make more sense if it was Portia given how she feels about the ton or the seamstress overhearing gossip from her customers or someone else. I can't see the Penelope I see on screen horrified by Marina's plan for Colin and her mother going along with it deciding to out Marina's pregnancy. They still feel like two different characters.