Ratings and Scheduling: Who's the fairest of them all?

[Serena]

Yeah, exactly. Once was renewed WAY before schedule last season - the announcement usually coincides with the Upfronts in May, while last year it came several months earlier - because Channing was hired and SHE decided to renew it.

Quote

Once's ratings aren't great, sure. We can all agree on that. But it's more likely to get renewed than Conviction by a wide margin. It's more likely to get renewed than Notorious and Secrets and Lies. It has a higher average rating than Agents of Shield and like Agents, it also has IP outside of the show itself that factors into its possible renewal. So stop with the fear mongering based on how great Conviction is because Channing's sister is on the show and they haven't officially said it's cancelled so it's going to be this ratings juggernaut that ABC is going to renew before Once. Based on current ratings, that's not going to happen.

Not to mention, ABC can get way more $$$ selling Once to Netflix compared to Conviction or other new shows.

Again, anything can happen. Maybe Once drops to a 0.2 next year and it's cancelled. Maybe every single midseason replacement ABC will launch next year will be an Empire-sized hit. Who knows? But with things as they are, Once is more likely to be renewed - especially with a "renewed for a final season" announcement, so they can pimp that - than otherwise.

[YaddaYadda]

It will be interesting to see how much promotion Once will have before the second half and what they will be promoting.

[Curio]

I could actually see people tuning in for a few episodes if ABC's marketing pimped out "The Final Season!" and "Emma and Hook get married!" clips. But eventually, the ratings will fall again back to normal.

[Rumsy4]

The problem is, A&E don't know how to promote their own Show. This year, they put off many fans by "promoting" the return of Emma's Walls, and extra angst for Rumbelle. They'll probably promote the apocalypse for a final season, all the while stating that the Show never gets bleak, only dark.  

[Tiger]

1 hour ago, sharky said:

Except Dungey wasn't hired at the end of last season. She was hired in February so she could be the one acquiring pilots and setting the fall schedule. She was the one who left Once where it is. So sure, she may have more influence with pilot development this season, but she already made her mark with this season's schedule.

Dungey and Sherwood renewed almost everything because it was too late in the new show development timeline to change course.  They picked up shows from the slate Lee developed; this year they are picking from their development.  And their development is comedies, mostly inhouse, procedurals, and rooted-in-real-life dramas.  The fantasy/wish fulfuillment days of Lee are over at ABC.  

Beyond that, they ate under strict and direct orders from Iger himself to right the ship.  If they cant get it done quickly, they'll be replaced too.  Keeping an aging, increasingly expensive show with consistently sinking ratings and no new available streams of revenue does not accomplish that objective.  

Beyond that, while money matters most, who is related to, screwing, owes a favor to, etc., plays a huge role in who gets cast, what gets picked up, renewed, etc,.  The network president's sister being a show DOES matter.  

ABC has absolutely no incentive to keep Once. Setting aside their other dramas, they can turn the hour over to comedy and even with the same ratings instantly make (more) money.  Middle and LMS are doing fantastic in syndication and ABC studios gets a peice of that revenue.  Goldbergs, Blackish, and Fresh will all be entering syndication in the next year to two years and ABC Studios will make a lot of money.  Blackish and Housewife are curently making a lot of money with in-show advertising.  

Comedy, especially that from ABC Studios, is hugely profitable for the company.  Shows like Once are not.

[TheGreenKnight]

3 hours ago, Tiger said:

ABC has absolutely no incentive to keep Once.

Yeah, yeah, and nobody has said that Once is still some kind of huge hit, so I'm not sure what you're arguing over at this point.

[Curio]

54 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Dungey and Sherwood renewed almost everything because it was too late in the new show development timeline to change course.  They picked up shows from the slate Lee developed; this year they are picking from their development.  And their development is comedies, mostly inhouse, procedurals, and rooted-in-real-life dramas.  The fantasy/wish fulfuillment days of Lee are over at ABC.  

 

I wonder if it would make any difference if A&E retooled the show into a real Season 1 formula again. (Not whatever this Season 6 crap is. No matter how many times they claim this season is like Season 1, it's not.) ABC could greenlight a final seventh season with the caveat that 1) A&E ditch the apocalyptic feel and go back to the real small-town stories of the Storybrooke, Maine citizens, 2) Make the show more comedic and lighthearted (and no, Regina sassing all the time isn't funny), and 3) Repeat the Season 1 formula where there's a memory wipe and we're watching real life people—not fairy tale characters—with a more procedural Emma-solves-a-mystery-per-week formula. A&E would probably never agree to it, but the show is set up in a way where it could change its scope in order to fit ABC's new vision.

[KingOfHearts]

57 minutes ago, Curio said:

I wonder if it would make any difference if A&E retooled the show into a real Season 1 formula again. (Not whatever this Season 6 crap is. No matter how many times they claim this season is like Season 1, it's not.) ABC could greenlight a final seventh season with the caveat that 1) A&E ditch the apocalyptic feel and go back to the real small-town stories of the Storybrooke, Maine citizens, 2) Make the show more comedic and lighthearted (and no, Regina sassing all the time isn't funny), and 3) Repeat the Season 1 formula where there's a memory wipe and we're watching real life people—not fairy tale characters—with a more procedural Emma-solves-a-mystery-per-week formula. A&E would probably never agree to it, but the show is set up in a way where it could change its scope in order to fit ABC's new vision.

You know how to fix it, but... TS,TW! The writers just aren't capable.

Edited December 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

2 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Yeah, yeah, and nobody has said that Once is still some kind of huge hit, so I'm not sure what you're arguing over at this point.

S/he's arguing over the people who are in denial about the facts concerning internal network politics and don't want the show to be cancelled in S6.To some degree, I can sympathize given how much S6 sucks.  But I also must ask: how do you know a potential final S7 wouldn't suck even MORE?

Quote

Dungey and Sherwood renewed almost everything because it was too late in the new show development timeline to change course. 

Yeah, this.  The renewal announcement happened so soon last year because it wasn't really a matter of choice like it's been in the past.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

  But I also must ask: how do you know a potential final S7 wouldn't suck even MORE?

An S7 would probably bookend the series with a renewed focus on the main characters. That means more Enchanted Forest retcons and more rehashing of the Snow vs. Regina feud. Regina would get her happy ending, Rumpbelle would reconcile foreverz, Emma and Hook would get married, and Snowing would probably decide they're happy where they're at. Oh, then Henry would write about all this, with the final shot of him writing, "And they all lived happily ever after" or "And it all started with the words, 'once upon a time'".

Quote

Honestly, I think people wishing for a S7 failed to appreciate the lesson of the recent midseason finale: be careful what you wish for.

All I want is A&E to have enough to notice to write a more thought-out (well, by their standards) conclusion. I don't want it to be, "Oh snap! We're getting cancelled and we only have two episodes left to write?! Better wrap everything up hastily! Can we get a Cinderella cameo?!" An entire season would probably be a waste of time considering the writers' weird pacing. Even a short one.

Edited December 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

Honestly, I think people wishing for a S7 failed to appreciate the lesson of the recent midseason finale: be careful what you wish for.

Not that lesson IN the episode, mind you, but outside of it: so many wished for a No Curse AU and instead we got....that.

[RadioGirl27]

I know there is like a 90% chance that this is the last season, but until some official source (and not some anonymous source in an internet forum*) tell me that the show is cancelled, I'm going to keep hoping for Season 7.

And I also know that if somehow there is a season 7, it is going to be crap, just like season 6 is. But at least the cast and the crew would know it's the last season and they would have time to search for a new job. And I would have Colin and Jen in my screen for a little longer.

With this I'm going to stay far away from this thread until the show comes back.

(*nothing personal, this is something I was teached in the journalism school)

Edited December 11, 2016 by RadioGirl27

[Rumsy4]

11 hours ago, Tiger said:

The network president's sister being a show DOES matter.  

Sorry no. It's not going to look good for Channing Dungey she spends her first year as network president favoring her sister over the good of the company. She won't risk her job to be accused of nepotism. 

7 hours ago, Mathius said:

S/he's arguing over the people who are in denial about the facts concerning internal network politics and don't want the show to be cancelled in S6.

Whatever gets filtered down through office gossip or hearsay does not constitute hard facts. I'm not denying that the big bugs at abc are likely scrambling to think of solutions, and OUAT's fate just may hang on a razor's edge, but I'm still not convinced that abc will do a complete overhaul of its lineup. They may yet give shows like ONCE a limited final season order to wrap up, as a transition to more major changes in the schedule. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by Rumsy4

[TheGreenKnight]

4 hours ago, Mathius said:

S/he's arguing over the people who are in denial about the facts concerning internal network politics and don't want the show to be cancelled in S6.

To me, s/he's just arguing because others aren't accepting this supposed insider knowledge of internal ABC decisions at face value. Sorry, but this is the Internet, and we don't know you.

4 hours ago, Mathius said:

Honestly, I think people wishing for a S7 failed to appreciate the lesson of the recent midseason finale: be careful what you wish for.

Not that lesson IN the episode, mind you, but outside of it: so many wished for a No Curse AU and instead we got....that.

I had no problems with the episode. But then I never wished for the AU in the first place. Most of the dissatisfaction is self-created by people who want the show to cater to one subset of fans' wishes and won't accept the show as it is.

Edited December 11, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Free]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

An S7 would probably bookend the series with a renewed focus on the main characters. That means more Enchanted Forest retcons and more rehashing of the Snow vs. Regina feud. Regina would get her happy ending, Rumpbelle would reconcile foreverz, Emma and Hook would get married, and Snowing would probably decide they're happy where they're at. Oh, then Henry would write about all this, with the final shot of him writing, "And they all lived happily ever after" or "And it all started with the words, 'once upon a time'".

All I want is A&E to have enough to notice to write a more thought-out (well, by their standards) conclusion. I don't want it to be, "Oh snap! We're getting cancelled and we only have two episodes left to write?! Better wrap everything up hastily! Can we get a Cinderella cameo?!" An entire season would probably be a waste of time considering the writers' weird pacing. Even a short one.

At this point they're just not capable enough for that, the writing has deteriorated a lot each season.

[Camera One]

I don't care if Season 7 is even worse.  I still want it.  I derive as much enjoyment from a good episode as a bad one due to this board.

And even though a final season will still be full of disappointment, there is an increased likelihood that we will get a moment which is good, whether with a cameo or some closure that the show withhold until they know they don't need to drag things out anymore.  I'd be curious if A&E decides to throw the rest of their discarded ideas for Disney characters they haven't used yet. like a Mickey's House of Villains kinda of a thing.  This show really shows that one should really live for the moments.

[sharky]

I honestly think that's what their plan was for this stupid Land of Untold Stories idea -- throw all the stories we want to tell into one big season! But the network and ratings put that dumb idea down real quick. I mean, really, after all the hype, we got maybe six episodes and then dropped it like a dead whore. My one scary thought is that after the first few episodes and ratings blah-ness, the network said, "Hey, we can't do this for two more seasons. How about you wrap up this Untold Stories thing quick, do what you want to do with the original characters and be done this season?" At the same time, I can also see it just being an issue of Channing taking more control of the show's direction now that she's in charge, which then leads me to wonder what would've happened if Lee was still at the helm.

[Mathius]

2 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I had no problems with the episode. But then I never wished for the AU in the first place. Most of the dissatisfaction is self-created by people who want the show to cater to one subset of fans' wishes and won't accept the show as it is.

Yes, a show that currently tends to cater to one subset of fans' wishes, with that episode being a prime example.

Also, I think more than just a subset took issue with the complete butchering of the main character's personality under flimsy reasoning.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Mathius

[ParadoxLost]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

 They may yet give shows like ONCE a limited final season order to wrap up, as a transition to more major changes in the schedule. 

This is just a general question and quoting you was convenient as a jumping off point.

Where is the idea that a reduced/limited final season for ONCE might be an option.  I can't recall when ABC has ever taken a full season show and brought it back for a limited run to wrap things up.  My memory is not great for this stuff, but I can't remember ABC doing this.  Their limited series generally start out that way.  I know other networks do this but is there a precedent at ABC? 

[Camera One]

I don't watch it, but the *other* fairy tale show that debuted at the same time as "Once Upon a Time" got its episode order for Season 6 cut from 22 episodes to 13 episodes and a midseason return (in April 2016) and then in August 2016, NBC announced that Season 6 would be the final season.

[sharky]

Yea, NBC has done this a few times -- Chuck is a perfect example. That show was just struggling for every viewer so when NBC announced it would be the last season, they gave the show a 13-episode final year. I don't think ABC has done this for a show before, but there are obviously examples when they had a "limited series" that didn't go beyond that. Plus, I think this half-season thing with Once would make it a natural decision for them to order a half-season finale instead of a full season.

[Rumsy4]

Shows I watched in other networks have done this (Fringe, Person of Interest, etc.). No idea about abc in particular, but the later seasons of LOST weren't a full 22-season order. S4 was necessarily limited by the writers strike, but IIRC, seasons 5 and 6 were 16-18 episodes each. So, in a way, it was a limited order for abc. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by Rumsy4

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I don't watch it, but the *other* fairy tale show that debuted at the same time as "Once Upon a Time" got its episode order for Season 6 cut from 22 episodes to 13 episodes and a midseason return (in April 2016) and then in August 2016, NBC announced that Season 6 would be the final season.

You are talking about Grimm right? 

46 minutes ago, sharky said:

Yea, NBC has done this a few times -- Chuck is a perfect example. That show was just struggling for every viewer so when NBC announced it would be the last season, they gave the show a 13-episode final year. I don't think ABC has done this for a show before, but there are obviously examples when they had a "limited series" that didn't go beyond that. Plus, I think this half-season thing with Once would make it a natural decision for them to order a half-season finale instead of a full season.

I think this would be more likely if ONCE would be going out on its own terms instead of wrapping up a declining show that is now more of a liability in that it can't launch a new program.  The strongest case to be made for a limited season vs. a full order or outright cancellation is if they could promote a Disney property.  But they aren't doing that well now, so I have to believe it would be easier/cheaper for ABC to do that a different way.  I would think a Marvel or Disney (not OUAT) or Star Wars event series would be more attractive than a series wrap up of a declining show.  These are options that ABC has that other networks that give partial wrap up seasons can't do as easily or profitably.

Frankly, in the last two days I've watch parts of Mary Poppins and now I'm watching some half Frozen/half Target infomercial.  I'm surprised they don't do more of this more often.  I bet Frozen will kill the ratings compared tot the last episode of OUAT.  You'd think they would run Disney movies all the way through the mid season every year.

Edited December 12, 2016 by ParadoxLost

[maryle]

I still think the most probable is season 7 as final season shorter or not.

For, this year there show weaker and all the tv specialist even if they noted a decline put them more likely to be renew because of the state of ABC as network. 

But, the fact is Once don't deserve anymore the 8pm case because it can't be a lead in for a new show make me almost certain that next season will be the last. The network will want to correct the situation sooner than later. 

[Curio]

Quote

But I also must ask: how do you know a potential final S7 wouldn't suck even MORE?

Unless Season 7 includes three Reginas on screen at the same time and they officially kill off Captain Hook, there's 100% no chance it could be worse than Season 6. We have reached the pinnacle of terrible storytelling. Absolutely nothing can be worse than the erratic 6A episodes where each week is practically a different television show, and nothing can destroy Emma's character more than the midseason finale. Absolutely nothing can top Regina making out with Gold on a weekly basis, Snow teaching boring physics lessons, and Belle going back to Rumple for the millionth time. There's only going up from here in my book.

The main reason I want Season 7 is so that A&E actually get on their asses and start writing the plots they've been holding off on. Instead of a final season where we finally wrap up every loose thread the show has ever introduced (and trust me, there's enough of those to fill up 22 episodes easily), ABC is going to let them know they have 2 episodes to wrap things up and the Season 6 finale will be a clusterfuck of rushed endings that ultimately make the entire series unsatisfying because we spent so much time watching these characters suffer only to have 5 seconds of rushed happiness at the very end.

[Rumsy4]

39 minutes ago, Curio said:

Season 6 finale will be a clusterfuck of rushed endings that ultimately make the entire series unsatisfying because we spent so much time watching these characters suffer only to have 5 seconds of rushed happiness at the very end.

I'm afraid that might be the case no matter when the series finale happens. Instead of resolving the million dangling plot-threads, the writers will introduce a brand new problem for the series finale, which will be resolved with a deux ex machina revealed in the last 10 minutes. 

However, overall I agree with you that if we get a S7, it is likely to be better than this one. I've generally found the odd-numbered seasons of the Show (1,3,5) better than their even-numbered counterparts (2,4,6).

[sharky]

So Frozen got a 1.7 last night -- definitely better than Once. Their making of show at 10pm got a 0.9 if that puts Sunday overall ratings into perspective. Also, Frozen was still beaten by the Simpsons and football. But it did beat the other Fox comedies, which were around the 1.0-1.4 mark.

[YaddaYadda]

9 minutes ago, sharky said:

So Frozen got a 1.7 last night -- definitely better than Once. Their making of show at 10pm got a 0.9 if that puts Sunday overall ratings into perspective. Also, Frozen was still beaten by the Simpsons and football. But it did beat the other Fox comedies, which were around the 1.0-1.4 mark.

What I'm getting is that Sunday night for ABC is just hard no matter what they'll put there at this point.

[jjjmoss]

1.7 is a hit these days.

[sharky]

Yea, this isn't just an ABC thing. Last night, CBS shanked it worse than ABC and that's pretty normal for them. So I don't know what ABC can do against football on Sundays. 

[Shanna Marie]

15 minutes ago, sharky said:

So I don't know what ABC can do against football on Sundays. 

Probably just adjust expectations and counterprogram to the audience least likely to care about football, which is kind of what they're already doing. Last night was a huge football game, the rematch between the Cowboys and the Giants. That probably would have killed everything up against it, especially in two of the bigger media markets in the country (New York and DFW). I don't know how well Frozen would really be expected to do, since the people who really like it probably already have the DVD. This airing would have hit the superfans who can't resist watching when it's on, even if they already own it, those who are bored with everything else on TV and had it on as background noise (that's how I end up watching a lot of the Disney movies I own), and maybe the few people who never made it to the movie theater to see Frozen but were curious enough to check it out when it came on TV for free.

The football factor could be the saving grace for a potential partial 7th season. They might not want to sacrifice the golden goose of their well-performing comedies against football in the fall, so maybe the could give a partial season to a show that's reasonably steady (if low) against football and that has an established core audience. The audience might even grow a bit for an announced final arc, if people who drifted away come back to see how it ends. Then they can reprogam the night after football ends and get something established during the spring to have some traction before the next football season.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Shanna Marie
Thought of something else the second I hit "post"

[Mathius]

6 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I'm afraid that might be the case no matter when the series finale happens. Instead of resolving the million dangling plot-threads, the writers will introduce a brand new problem for the series finale, which will be resolved with a deux ex machina revealed in the last 10 minutes. 

Exactly. The S5 finale had jack-shit to do with S5, the series finale may be doomed to have nothing to do with the season it's in no matter what.

Quote

The main reason I want Season 7 is so that A&E actually get on their asses and start writing the plots they've been holding off on. 

 

The problem is that would require A&E to have actual interest in writing those plots.  They don't have any and they never will.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Mathius

[Hookian]

On 12/11/2016 at 3:36 PM, TheGreenKnight said:

To me, s/he's just arguing because others aren't accepting this supposed insider knowledge of internal ABC decisions at face value. Sorry, but this is the Internet, and we don't know you.

 

Exactly this.

Quote

So Frozen got a 1.7 last night -- definitely better than Once. Their making of show at 10pm got a 0.9 if that puts Sunday overall ratings into perspective. Also, Frozen was still beaten by the Simpsons and football. But it did beat the other Fox comedies, which were around the 1.0-1.4 mark.

So what? It's  It's freaking Frozen and it was the TV world premiere. Like of course it was gonna have good ratings, it's still big to this day.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Hookian

[ParadoxLost]

ABC got an early start on pilot season http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/abc-pilots-carol-burnett-1201935188/

Through a little googling, here is what they've done since they announced as being in development since they did upfronts last year

Courtney B. Vance, Felicity Huffman (political comedy from Blackish creators)

Zack Braff (workplace comedy with a producer from Scrubs)

Toni Collette (action dramedy from Blackish creators)

Carol Burnett (Untitled comedy from Amy Poehler)

A romcom from Poehler's production company

Kyra Sedgwick straight to series some time between spring and early fall his year

Now a lot of these may be limited runs or never get picked up.  Or they may end up on other networks.  But I think it says something about the likelihood of poorly performing shows getting picked up if ABC is out there signing names to pilots a couple months ahead of everyone else.

[Souris]

Also a Southern gothic soap from Marc Cherry starring Reba McEntire. And there's that theme park show, too, plus another from the same creators.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Souris

[Hookian]

2 hours ago, Souris said:

Also a Southern gothic soap from Marc Cherry starring Reba McEntire. And there's that theme park show, too, plus another from the same creators.

It's obvious that the theme park one if OUAT gets a S7 will be launched immediately after OUAT in it's timeslot in the Spring.

[TheGreenKnight]

16 hours ago, Souris said:

Also a Southern gothic soap from Marc Cherry starring Reba McEntire. 

I hope I like this, because--whether OUAT ends in May 2016 or May 2017--I need something new to pick up now that everything I've watched the past 5 years will be dead and buried. Can't say I'd be interested in a theme park show. I just can't get into watching half-hour comedies weekly. Not that they're bad, but I can only watch sitcoms in marathons.

[Eolivet]

14 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

But I think it says something about the likelihood of poorly performing shows getting picked up if ABC is out there signing names to pilots a couple months ahead of everyone else.

This. In a ratings metaphor more befitting its competition, OuaT has consistently moved the chains for ABC on Sunday night. Three yards and a cloud of dust every time -- but just enough to keep ABC on the "field" on Sundays. But now they've started losing yardage on those safe plays. So, ABC can either keep running OuaT against increasingly tougher competition, where "yards" are increasingly harder to come by. Or they can chuck the ball downfield in the form of new programming. They take the chance that they could throw an interception and be in a worse position than they were before. Or they could have a completion and be further down the field. Or a touchdown.

And if ABC is down by three touchdowns in the proverbial ratings football game, there's no team worth its salt that's going to do safe running plays like OuaT to make up that lost ground (with the clock winding down). They're going to chuck it downfield. That's the potential schedule that has been described, and it makes a lot of sense. To dismiss it entirely, to me, is to say that ABC is content with losing, and I just don't believe that. I feel like that's just common sense. OuaT gets renewed on a non-struggling network easily -- where other shows can pick up its ratings slack. But a struggling one? I say all bets are off.

[Curio]

I don't trust ABC's decision-making ever since they cancelled Happy Endings.

[Tiger]

12 hours ago, Hookian said:

It's obvious that the theme park one if OUAT gets a S7 will be launched immediately after OUAT in it's timeslot in the Spring.

How is that "obvious"? 

14 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

ABC got an early start on pilot season http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/abc-pilots-carol-burnett-1201935188/

Through a little googling, here is what they've done since they announced as being in development since they did upfronts last year

Courtney B. Vance, Felicity Huffman (political comedy from Blackish creators)

Zack Braff (workplace comedy with a producer from Scrubs)

Toni Collette (action dramedy from Blackish creators)

Carol Burnett (Untitled comedy from Amy Poehler)

A romcom from Poehler's production company

Kyra Sedgwick straight to series some time between spring and early fall his year

Now a lot of these may be limited runs or never get picked up.  Or they may end up on other networks.  But I think it says something about the likelihood of poorly performing shows getting picked up if ABC is out there signing names to pilots a couple months ahead of everyone else.

The only pilot I've heard anything about is a singlecam sitcom being developed by the co-creator of Girlfriends, Mara Brock Akil, and her husband, that is semi-autobiographical on their family. It's being envisioned as a companion to Blackish, which will be moving out of the Wed 930 slot possibly as early as this spring.

[Mathius]

21 hours ago, Hookian said:

So what? It's  It's freaking Frozen and it was the TV world premiere.

Um, no, it was the ABC premiere.  It's been on TV before.

Quote

How is that "obvious"? 

I think it's because it's a Disney-themed drama, so it getting the new Sunday 8:00 spot from OUAT makes sense.

I must say, this new info does match the info that ABC is retooling to lean more towards comedy and a new political landscape. Not good for OUAT.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

To give a sense what Frozen was up against Sunday, in the DFW market (a top-ten market), football had a 42.3 rating. It was probably close to that in New York. It was probably a bit lower in the rest of the country, lowering the overall rating, but still, that high in two major markets is going to mean a really high rating compared to Frozen's 1.7. The ratings will fluctuate, depending on who's playing, but you almost have to ignore football if you're up against it. Where OUAT doesn't look good is that its ratings often drop badly in the spring, so football isn't really an excuse.

[Mathius]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Where OUAT doesn't look good is that its ratings often drop badly in the spring, so football isn't really an excuse.

True, the Dark Hook reveal caused a big drop at the end of 5A, and going by the reaction to the 6A finale, we may see another big drop in 6B.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

Just now, Mathius said:

True, the Dark Hook reveal caused a big drop at the end of 5A, and going by the reaction to the 6A finale, we may see another big drop in 6B.

And the big drop-off was 2B. They tend to go off the cliff in the spring, when theoretically there's less competition. That suggests that it's something to do with the writing, that either the A arcs really turn people off so they don't even try the B arcs, or that the topics of the B arcs turn people off, or maybe a bit of both. There's usually a huge drop after the November music awards break (which to some extent may come from people assuming that's the mid-season finale and then not coming back for the Sunday after Thanksgiving and the first Sunday in December), and then sometimes a boost for the mid-season premiere, followed by a steep drop.

[Mathius]

3 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

That suggests that it's something to do with the writing, that either the A arcs really turn people off so they don't even try the B arcs, or that the topics of the B arcs turn people off, or maybe a bit of both.

It was definitely a bit of both for S4, since there was a big drop at the end of 4A, then a rise that lasted all of two episodes in 4B before dropping again.  So the end of 4A clearly turned people off, then they came back and got turned off by 4B's premises (eggnapper Snowing, anyone?)

Edited December 13, 2016 by Mathius

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Mathius said:

True, the Dark Hook reveal caused a big drop at the end of 5A, and going by the reaction to the 6A finale, we may see another big drop in 6B.

The drop at the end of 5A was caused by the Merida episode. I'm not sure why anyone would think it was the Dark Hook storyline that caused it. And it wasn't really surprising there was a drop between "Shattered Sight" and "H&V" because most of the conflict was resolved in the former.

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

The drop at the end of 5A was caused by the Merida episode. I'm not sure why anyone would think it was the Dark Hook storyline that caused it.

I think that was yet another case of the mistaken fall finale. I forget the 4A episode names, but they had the two-hour episode, then were off for a week because of the music awards, and I believe the next week was the Sunday after Thanksgiving. The two-hour episode felt like a finale, since it ended with the fireworks and everyone happy, but with the underlying cliffhanger about Rumple having Hook's heart. The ratings tanked afterward, and it seemed like viewers thought that was a finale and assumed they'd be off for the holiday weekend after they were off for a week with the music awards. So the same thing happened in 5A, but instead of having a two-hour episode that felt like a finale, there was an episode with a huge cliffhanger ending followed by a one-off, and then they were off for a week for music awards, and then it was Thanksgiving, and people didn't come back after the music awards break.

It's probably too late to shift gears here, but someone in programming should probably have put two and two together and realized that a big episode that seemed possibly finale-like followed by a break, followed by a holiday weekend in which it's easy to assume nothing new would be on is going to cause low ratings. So they either needed to just give up and do the mid-season finale before the music awards or make the episode before the music awards look less like a potential finale. I guess they kind of did that this year, since they didn't do the two hours the week before the music awards. I don't even remember what episode was on before the awards -- the mirror one? Was there as steep a drop-off in ratings for the episode after that?

[Souris]

7 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

The drop at the end of 5A was caused by the Merida episode. I'm not sure why anyone would think it was the Dark Hook storyline that caused it. 

There was also a week's break after that Merida ep for the music awards.

FWIW, I just read an article today about ratings for The Walking Dead taking a big in-season drop this fall. Most networks would still kill for its ratings, but it's suffering too.

Once isn't going to help ABC at all next season even if it comes back. It's a pricey show with a bloated cast and rapidly falling ratings that will fall even more in the spring. I think ABC is going to throw all sorts of new stuff out there to see if anything sticks. To extend Eolivet's football metaphor -- they're going to open up the playbook. A draw to the Once fullback isn't going to cut it.

[Camera One]

Quote

 It's a pricey show with a bloated cast

If they want to be harsh, then one way to cut costs would be to return to the Season 1 core cast for the final season.  They would surely fold from the pressure, though.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

#SendHenryToBoardingSchool2017. If it's the only way we can cut costs and save Season 7, I guess it's a sacrifice we will all have to endure. I know it'll be a loss and we'll all terribly, terribly, terribly miss Henry's presence around Storybrooke, but sometimes you just gotta take one for the team...

But more realistically, Zelena can probably be killed off, Rumple can be "killed off" (until he is needed for the final few episodes of the series), and Belle and Henry can be reduced to recurring. Even Snow and Charming might as well be recurring at this point, but I still have HOPE that they could give Snowing a decent plot in the final season.