S02.E10: Hunted

[DittyDotDot]

After Dean tells Sam what their father told him before he died, a distraught Sam sneaks off to Indiana without Dean.

[mertensia]

I liked the beginning quite a bit and poor Scott's death was quite creepy.

The Sam/Ava interaction and the Dean/Gordon interaction were quite good but the episode didn't really gel for me.

That said I approve of Sam's way of getting Gordon out of their hair.

[DittyDotDot]

This is another one of those mixed episodes for me. I LOVE Ava even though the physic kids storyline was never a favorite; LOVE to hate Gordon; LOVE the White Rabbit sequence; LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Dean tackling and beating on Gordon; LOVE "Funky Town" and find Dean tied to that little chair and the rope barely tied rather amusing; and LOVE that Gordon gets arrested because Sam is a "fine, upstanding citizen."  Could have lived without Sam running off without a word to Dean; and some of Gordon's monologue.

 

I'm going to go on a little rant here...it absolutely grates on my nerves that Sam just up and leaves in the middle of the night with out even leaving a note or something to let Dean know he was at least okay. That's what John did a year earlier--actually their asshole-of-a-father at least had the courtesy to give Dean a call and tell him to be careful.  I'm not begrudging Sam his wanting to find some answers and I'm not begrudging him going to find them, I'm just a bit annoyed at how he did it. It's very 14-year-old behavior. And trying to put Ellen in the middle of it was even more crappy, but the most annoying part for me was that he couldn't call and let Dean know he was okay, but the moment someone starts shooting at him it's time to call Dean for help. Seriously, 14-year-old-behavior. Okay rant over.

 

There are some really good and interesting things happening in this episode, but Sam running off always drags it down for me. Plus, the whole Earth-shattering-secret-that-was-neither-Earth-shattering-nor-secret-at-this-point speech really is marred by how they drug it out too long and I really didn't care about it any longer.

[mstaken]

...What DittyDot said. 

 

Oh, is that not sufficient?! ;) 

 

I'm glad you guys mentioned that perfectly creepy opener, because I think it's one of the most effective of the series. I, too, really enjoy Ava (such a nice deviation from the usual SPN super sassy, tough, sexy, ultra-'cool' type of female character they trot out over and over). I also loved all things Gordon, Dean's "you ditched me, Sammy" and "Funkytown" and Dean knowing that Sam is more savvy than Gordon suspects. 

 

But, yeah, Sam running away like that really irks me. And you know what irks me even more? 

 

the whole Earth-shattering-secret-that-was-neither-Earth-shattering-nor-secret-at-this-point speech really is marred by how they drug it out too long and I really didn't care about it any longer.

 

...ARGH! I really couldn't stand this aspect of S2. 

 

Overall, though, this is definitely in my top half of the season, and maybe even in my top third. 

[DittyDotDot]

 And you know what irks me even more? 

the whole Earth-shattering-secret-that-was-neither-Earth-shattering-nor-secret-at-this-point speech really is marred by how they drug it out too long and I really didn't care about it any longer.

 

...ARGH! I really couldn't stand this aspect of S2. 

 

Taking to All Episodes...

[7kstar]

this one was higher on my list until I rewatched it recently.  I like how Dean can communicate even tied up.  I also like that it looks like Dean is easily saving the day to only get trapped and needing rescuing.

 

Sam running off...sucks.  The secret was a so what and Sam's reaction felt like a big child instead of handling it. 

 

I think this shows the show isn't really understanding how to deal with gifts all these children are suppose to have and this wasn't something strong enough to fill up a season.  Maybe a half season but not the full season.

 

I like the ending with Gordon and their are few moments that are fun, but I found myself more bored on rewatched than I remembered being in the first time I watched it.

[catrox14]

I love this episode solely for the scene with Dean tied up because ALL THE AWARDS to Jensen for showing Dean's fear, grief and rage when he thought Sam had been blown apart with just face and eye acting, Stunning work.

[Pete Martell]

I mostly thought this episode was rushed and disjointed. The whole Dean/Sam separation was anticlimactic (if they wanted to end midseason on a cliffhanger I would have had Dean go look for Jo), Gordon's end seemed even more rushed (is this because the actor had a job elsewhere?) and I thought they made him seem like an idiot. I just found Ava to be forced and the comedy element to her role here to be forced.

 

I did like Ellen's scene with Dean, and the scenes with Dean and Gordon.

[DittyDotDot]

I love this episode solely for the scene with Dean tied up because ALL THE AWARDS to Jensen for showing Dean's fear, grief and rage when he thought Sam had been blown apart with just face and eye acting, Stunning work.

 

My rant sidetracked me from mentioning that I absolutely love it when Dean is untied and the first thing he does is look at Sam to make sure he was okay. Before he even thinks of going after Gordon. It's a nice touch they added there.

[catrox14]

I never thought Gordon looked like an idiot. He was still smart but he was obsessed and prone to hubris. I don't think that made him an idiot.

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, I find that there was a certain--albeit whack-a-do--logic to what he was doing. In his own messed up way, he was trying to save folks too.

[catrox14]

Yup @ DittyDotDot.  Gordon wasn't stupid, he was crazy

Edited July 16, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Gordon's end seemed even more rushed (is this because the actor had a job elsewhere?.

 

Yes, Sterling K. Brown was cast as a regular on another show and was no longer available. I read somewhere that they had other plans for Gordon, but since he wasn't available they did...well, you know what they did. (I hate using spoiler tags, for some reason I always end up editing the post three or four times to get them to work right.)

[PeteMartell]

I never thought Gordon looked like an idiot. He was still smart but he was obsessed and prone to hubris. I don't think that made him an idiot.

 

I meant the whole, "Sam saves the day because Gordon runs after them and the cops arrest him/stolen stuff is put in his car" ending. It just didn't jive for me.

[catrox14]

I still didn't think that made Gordon look stupid. It was a brilliant plan by Sam.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think there was stolen stuff put in his car...the cops searched his car and found his weapons rack. Those were his, though, in Bloodlust they establish them. I too, thought it was a good solution to a human problem.

[AwesomO4000]

I liked the beginning quite a bit and poor Scott's death was quite creepy.

 

I really liked that opening. I liked how it left me wondering if the psychiatrist didn't shake Scott's hand because he didn't want to encourage Scott in thinking he had powers to kill or because the psychiatrist was truly worried to do so. I learned enough about Scott to feel bummed that he was killed before he had a chance to see if he could overcome his condition and fight the yellow-eyed demon's influence, so that entire first sequence did its job. I was sucked in, it was creepy, I was both creeped out a bit by and sympathized with Scott, and I wanted to know more. It was one of the more memorable opening sequences for me. "Go Ask Alice" was a great song choice there.

[7kstar]

I really liked that opening. I liked how it left me wondering if the psychiatrist didn't shake Scott's hand because he didn't want to encourage Scott in thinking he had powers to kill or because the psychiatrist was truly worried to do so. I learned enough about Scott to feel bummed that he was killed before he had a chance to see if he could overcome his condition and fight the yellow-eyed demon's influence, so that entire first sequence did its job. I was sucked in, it was creepy, I was both creeped out a bit by and sympathized with Scott, and I wanted to know more. It was one of the more memorable opening sequences for me. "Go Ask Alice" was a great song choice there.

 

some of the physic kids storylines were well thought out and this is an example of why it worked.  However for some reason Ava doesn't work as well on repeat watchings.  But I think this is a weakness with the writing, they don't write some woman well at all and some work because the actress can over come the weak script.  For me that's why Ellen worked, I think she is a stronger actress but some of the vagueness of the script hurts even a strong actor.

 

Also one problem in TV and Film vs stage, the actors don't get the entire script to see how their character lines up with the entire story.  They get sides and sometimes that leads them to make bad choices that later they may regret.  Even Jared has talked about that in a con.

I love this episode solely for the scene with Dean tied up because ALL THE AWARDS to Jensen for showing Dean's fear, grief and rage when he thought Sam had been blown apart with just face and eye acting, Stunning work.

This whole storyline is very strong with the ending.  It could have been lackluster but luckily for us Jensen is a strong actor and all the emotions he expresses most likely made me remember this ep as stronger than it was.  I'll watch this part over and over.  It's just so powerful to watch.

 

This is another one of those mixed episodes for me. I LOVE Ava even though the physic kids storyline was never a favorite; LOVE to hate Gordon; LOVE the White Rabbit sequence; LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Dean tackling and beating on Gordon; LOVE "Funky Town" and find Dean tied to that little chair and the rope barely tied rather amusing; and LOVE that Gordon gets arrested because Sam is a "fine, upstanding citizen." 

 

There are some really good and interesting things happening in this episode...

It took me by surprise on the re-watching that I didn't love this ep as much as I thought I did.  I really enjoyed Ava the first time and I agree with everything above.  I miss this bit in Supernatural where it shows the brothers have plans in case some things go wrong.  It's just in re-watch Ava becomes too one dimensional and doesn't fit with the ep so much. 

 

So you have a nice realistic opening, then sitcom Ava and go back to realism and it jars you too much.  Plus on the re-watch I get bored with Ava quickly.

 

I think this is the problem with not really planning out the arcs.  I understand doing a vague outline so you can change things but in this instance it hurt them, because instead of figuring out what stories they really wanted to tell, they seem like a hit or miss.  I think stronger planning would have help this ep and some of the others in this season.

[catrox14]

I think Ava was great and thought she was three-dimensional in this episode.  Of course, once we get

to AHBL everything becomes that much better.

I personally loved Ava's arc and the actress just made it even better IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

I too thought Ava was great, but then I do usually like most things Katherine Isabelle does. She had just enough spunk and gravitas to carry the character, rather than the tough-girl-with-gun-and-attitude like most female characters they like to showcase on this show. I thought her arc was decent and surprising, especially considering that I really didn't have much interest in the whole psychic kids storyline to begin with. I know they didn't have it all planned out, but thought this was one of those happy-accident times.  In-general though, I prefer they have more of a plan in place for a character, rather than just winging it and see what happens, but Ava worked for me in the end....go figure?

[catrox14]

It's serendipity to a degree with any of the really good things that happen on this show. Like Ava...or even Dean Winchester to this point in the story.  I don't think they really expected him to be anything as amazing as what that they got. Same with Ava and later on

(with Jake)

[rue721]

I'm going to go on a little rant here...it absolutely grates on my nerves that Sam just up and leaves in the middle of the night with out even leaving a note or something to let Dean know he was at least okay. That's what John did a year earlier--actually their asshole-of-a-father at least had the courtesy to give Dean a call and tell him to be careful.  I'm not begrudging Sam his wanting to find some answers and I'm not begrudging him going to find them, I'm just a bit annoyed at how he did it. It's very 14-year-old behavior. And trying to put Ellen in the middle of it was even more crappy, but the most annoying part for me was that he couldn't call and let Dean know he was okay, but the moment someone starts shooting at him it's time to call Dean for help. Seriously, 14-year-old-behavior. Okay rant over.

 

Co-sign. What was Sam thinking? That Dean was going to wake up and see that he'd disappeared and shrug? Wonder about what to eat for breakfast? ARGH! And this was not only right after their father had disappeared and then *died* (ffs!), but also right after Dean had literally told Sam that John's voice was constantly screaming in his head to save Sam. Not that I even know why Sam felt the need to go off by himself based on that "revelation." Apparently, he was pissed at Dean and Dean understood why, but...uh, I don't really? Because Dean hadn't told Sam earlier that John died giving vague, horrible orders? Yeah, that's not something that most people would tell, I don't think. Can't say how I would feel if I found out that my dead parent had made that kind of request, but it would be pretty horrible, and tbh, the first thing I would think would be, "why are you telling me? is this a threat?!"

 

Though I did find it endearing that at no point did Sam seem *at all* worried that Dean would actually kill him. He seemed even less worried about it than Dean did. That was actually very sweet imo. I guess Sam really does trust his brother implicitly. Maybe that implicit trust is why Sam later on feels so betrayed when Dean breaks his trust by

tricking him into letting Gadreel posses him.

Maybe that implicit trust is also why he's always asking whether Dean wants to talk about things -- I guess he feels like he would tell Dean and ask Dean to help him, so he doesn't know why Dean wouldn't trust him the same way? He apparently does assume he'll get unconditional love from the man. That's also probably why he's such a child and so callous when it comes to being thoughtful toward his brother (like how he just ran off and ditched him without a word in this episode). I don't really think that Dean treats Sam like he's his kid, but I do find that Sam treats Dean like he's his parent, and not just his parent, but like, he's a REALLY REALLY GOOD parent. Mind boggling.

 

Anyway, I wish that they'd shown all Sam's cell phones blowing up with Dean trying to get in touch with him, terrified that he'd been kidnapped or something and needing to hear that he was OK. (It's not like Sam is never kidnapped! He's kidnapped practically every episode!). Or at least hearing someone flipping out that her car had been stolen from the motel parking lot, and realizing that he'd have to track it down because Sam had to be in it. The human touches are what's fun about this show imo, so I always wish they'd put in more.

 

I really enjoyed Ava the first time and I agree with everything above.  I miss this bit in Supernatural where it shows the brothers have plans in case some things go wrong.  It's just in re-watch Ava becomes too one dimensional and doesn't fit with the ep so much. 

 

So you have a nice realistic opening, then sitcom Ava and go back to realism and it jars you too much.  Plus on the re-watch I get bored with Ava quickly.

 

Yes, I *love* seeing the brothers' backup plans. I *love* when they've clearly done a bunch of prep work and have Plan B's in place, and have thought out all the angles. It makes it feel much less cartoon-y, and usually, the plans are pretty clever in their own right. That's what was best about this episode, imo -- that Gordon had built this mousetrap for Sam, but the code words and the knowledge about the bullet and all that sort of cleverness came together so that Gordon got caught in an even bigger trap. It's always preferable to me when the Winchesters -- or anybody -- wins because of their wits rather than their fists.

 

Ava was kind of flat to me, too. I usually love the actress -- she's great as Margot on Hannibal. But the character did feel very sitcom-y and kind of farcical to me. Not that I hated her or anything, but I would have preferred if the writing for her had been more grounded. The moment that really kind of pushed me over into being irritated at how she was written was that line about how she's a "secretary from Peoria." It came off to me as something that someone wouldn't say about herself, because it was so weirdly belittling and not what Ava would likely think is important about herself. The talk about how she was running behind on her wedding prep because of all this supernatural junk rang truer imo.

 

The dialogue in general wasn't great imo. Another line that was supremely awkward was when Gordon was talking about how Sam was a race traitor -- meaning the human race, I guess, but BLECH. Since there was *so much* talking in this one, I wish they'd had Edland write it. His episodes aren't usually my favorites tbh, but he definitely does the strongest dialogue. That said, the plotting in this was relatively strong imo (I especially liked the ending of Sam calling the cops) -- it wasn't poorly written as a whole, I don't think, it was mostly that the dialogue had a lot of misses and was dry in general.

[DittyDotDot]

Not that I even know why Sam felt the need to go off by himself based on that "revelation." Apparently, he was pissed at Dean and Dean understood why, but...uh, I don't really? Because Dean hadn't told Sam earlier that John died giving vague, horrible orders?

 

I don't think Sam runs off because he's pissed at Dean exactly, but Dean wanted to lay low and ignore things and Sam wanted to go find some answers. Like I said, I understood why Sam did it, I just don't care for the manner in which he did it. I think he has every right to want to find answers, but the sneaking off and all just is really childish behavior.

 

 

He apparently does assume he'll get unconditional love from the man. That's also probably why he's such a child and so callous when it comes to being thoughtful toward his brother (like how he just ran off and ditched him without a word in this episode). I don't really think that Dean treats Sam like he's his kid, but I do find that Sam treats Dean like he's his parent, and not just his parent, but like, he's a REALLY REALLY GOOD parent. Mind boggling.

 

To Sam, Dean was a parent--Dean took on the role of parent in John's absence. That's not to say they didn't have a father, but the day-to-day care and feeding fell to Dean when John was gone for long stretches of time. And, in some ways, Dean does kinda love him unconditionally as a parent would. He's slow to assign any blame and generally sees only the good in Sam, but is quick to judge supernaturally enhanced others. They have a very skewed brother relationship born out of this messed up childhood. It's one of the most fascinating parts of the early seasons for me.

[supposebly]

 

I don't think Sam runs off because he's pissed at Dean exactly, but Dean wanted to lay low and ignore things and Sam wanted to go find some answers. Like I said, I understood why Sam did it, I just don't care for the manner in which he did it. I think he has every right to want to find answers, but the sneaking off and all just is really childish behavior.

Oh, I don't think he runs off because he is pissed at Dean. He just heard that his own father told his "real" father (I do consider Dean Sam's real father in almost every sense) that he might have to kill him and his real father has kept that from him and wants to ignore it or lay low. Not that I blame Dean for being completely freaked out but I also understand that Sam needs to go and sort this out in his own way. His running off is not what I would consider mature behavior but I don't know what mature behavior would be in the face of such a legacy.

I think they were both panicking in their own very Sam and Dean way. It's all very in character.

 

In many ways, John is more Dean's father while Dean is more Sam's father.

 

I agree, it's one of the most fascinating aspects of this show.

[rue721]

What I don't get is that I would think that Dean told Sam about their father's last words at least partially because those last words were getting to *him* (Dean), rather than to really warn Sam about anything. Because they both pretty much know that Dean's not going to go through with it, and Sam definitely knows (imo Dean is also torn up about knowing that, even if he couldn't save Sam, he also can't follow John's instructions and kill Sam).

 

Personally, I would never have told Sam about those last words, because they're so hurtful and I don't see any compelling reason why anyone would have to know about them -- except that John's last words were apparently eating Dean up inside and he couldn't keep that to himself anymore. So, right after Dean finally drops that bomb, and then goes off on some flight of fancy about them dumping their lives and fleeing to Amsterdam because he's freaking out, *then* Sam just wordlessly dumps him? (ETA:  oh wait, maybe the Amsterdam fantasy comes later in the episode? I don't honestly remember). Does it not occur to Sam at all that Dean is asking for *help* from Sam?

 

This is actually something that irritates me about Sam in general, because he does it a lot -- he can be so thoughtless and callous, and it especially seems like he forgets that his brother is a person. That's what I mean about him acting like a child would act toward a(n extremely loving and put-together) parent. He does it again

when Dean gets back from Hell in S4, it doesn't seem to occur to him at all that he needs to help Dean, and shouldn't be expecting Dean to take care of him or to be able to just go off and do his own thing.

And again and again after that -- it's rare that it occurs to him to help his brother (ETA:  thinking about it more, though, that's not true, he actually does *want* to help him a lot/often -- things just seem like they have to get to a pretty far-gone point or made pretty explicit before he notices anything, he doesn't really have his eye out and he's not very sensitive in general imo), and when he does step in and actually do something to help, his goal is usually in something tangential that isn't actually directly helpful to Dean. Like, he decides to try to avenge him or to fix his car or to exercise the max number of demons or something. To be fair to Sam, things tend to blow up in his face pretty badly, so even if Sam weren't so thoughtless, I think things still might have turned out the same way -- my issue is more that it makes Sam seem so childish (in a terrible way) that his empathy is so limited/undeveloped. He obviously does try to be empathetic, but he's empathetic like a child is empathetic, all sad eyes and attempts to comfort obvious distress -- he never even seems to try to read between the lines.

 

Anyway, I don't think that Dean acts like Sam is his child, imo he just acts fairly realistically like someone who felt abandoned/on his own too early (not good at trusting things to "work out" or at relying on people), and who grew up too fast (extremely responsible). He actually reminds me of a lot of my friends and ex-boyfriends in that way, because irl, I have a thing for dependable, protective, "ride or die" types like that. But Dean also seems like someone who was loved and cared for fairly well himself, because if he hadn't been, there's no way that he could be nurturing with Sam like he is/was. He obviously knows how to be loving and caring toward other people, and you have to be taught that. The reason I don't see him as behaving like a parent, per se, toward Sam is because imo it seems more like he's extremely protective of Sam in a sort of desperate way, like Sam is in his safekeeping and he's terrified of losing him or screwing up. He acts like he's got to answer to someone else in terms of caring for Sam. Which makes sense imo, since for most of their lives, he was caring for Sam for his father. I do think he loves him unconditionally -- Sam's right to trust that. But I don't think that alone makes it seem like a parent/child relationship from Dean's end (though I do think that the way that Sam just takes that for granted does make it seem like a parent/child relationship from Sam's perspective). I don't have kids myself, though, so my perspective is limited.

 

ETA:

 

His running off is not what I would consider mature behavior but I don't know what mature behavior would be in the face of such a legacy.

 

Yeah, it *is* in character for Sam to run off when the shit hits the fan, and to try to do things alone and in his own way (which is often the batshit, awkwardly too-intense way, which is why I do ultimately love the character) but I thought it was ridiculous that he'd just disappear from the motel in the dead of night like that. While a demon is apparently after him, and making him into a semi-monster/demon/anti-Christ who John warned Dean that he might have to murder.

 

Sam is supposedly a grown man who was shopping for *rings* before Jessica got immolated on the ceiling. Shouldn't he be better at relationships than this? (That's an actual question. Maybe being this thoughtless is actually out of character for him? To be honest, I'm not sure). If he trusts Dean with his life, which apparently he does, can he not blow up their partnership practically the same day that Dean reveals to him how serious the situation is? That seems so counterproductive, too.

 

Leaving and being bullheaded were both in-character, but the thoughtlessness was strange to me. Albeit, maybe that was actually in-character, too.

 

Hmmmm another possibly interesting thing about this episode imo is that Sam is apparently fine with the idea of Dean coming after him and trying to rescue him, even though he left to do things his own way. So I guess he actually saw *himself* as basically a kid at this point, too, or at least wasn't feeling smothered yet. His feelings on being rescued really evolved over time.

 

OK, please disregard if that's incomprehensible, I really should have gone to bed by now.

Edited December 30, 2014 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

His running off is not what I would consider mature behavior but I don't know what mature behavior would be in the face of such a legacy.

 

I think its very in-character that Sam would stubbornly head off on his own, I think it's out-of-character that he does it in such a childish way. Another course of action could've been to--at the very least--leave Dean a note to let him know he was okay and maybe keep in touch instead of ignoring Dean's phone calls. Again, I don't begrudge Sam his want to search out answers, I'd want that too if I were in his shoes, and I think he has every right to do it. Its just annoying to me that he leaves Dean in the dark to think the worst has happened.  He stormed off on his own in Scarecrow also, but he was honest with Dean on what he was doing and they kept in touch so they each knew the other was okay. I have no problem with them separating from time to time--that actually seems like it would be necessary and reasonable--I just don't think they need to act like children to make that happen. 

[AwesomO4000]

(ETA:  thinking about it more, though, that's not true, he actually does *want* to help him a lot/often -- things just seem like they have to get to a pretty far-gone point or made pretty explicit before he notices anything, he doesn't really have his eye out and he's not very sensitive in general imo), and when he does step in and actually do something to help, his goal is usually in something tangential that isn't actually directly helpful to Dean.

 

I disagree for the most part. It often depends on the situation. I agree that Sam wasn't very sensitive to Dean's situation in this episode and was acting immaturely, but at the same time, I can see why Sam was angry / annoyed, and that might have clouded his judgement and made his initial going off on his own to get answers also a way to act out in a bit of anger. Sam did just find out after all that Dean had been lying to him for quite a while. And that was because Sam realized from early on that Dean wasn't dealing well * - which is why I disagree that Sam isn't very sensitive in general  (depending on your meaning of sensitive here, which I may be misinterpreting) concerning Dean - and had tried to get Dean to talk to him about it. What Sam got for his trouble of trying to get Dean to open up and grieve with Sam about their father's death was 1) lied to 2) punched in the face 3) Dean basically saying "I'm not having difficulties dealing with Dad's death, you are, so there," and once Sam agreed with Dean that Dean was right that he (Sam) was having difficulties, but he still thought Dean also needed to deal and/or talk was 4) ignored. So while yes, Dean was finally spilling the beans because he was distraught and having trouble dealing with the situation, at the same time I also sympathize with Sam here, too. Sam asked Dean a long time ago - and more than once - if he was having difficulties, and instead of Dean telling the truth where they could have been dealing with it together all this time **, Dean only dumps it now after having lied. So in a way for me, it was sort of like Dean was saying "okay, I know you asked me a bunch of times to talk with you about this and I brushed you off, sometimes forcefully, but I guess now I'm ready to admit that I'm having difficulties and am ready to talk about this, and okay, not only did I lie about that, there's also this huge other thing that I kept from you. Aren't you ready to talk now? Sam? Sam?"

 

I guess I'm saying that I didn't see either of their actions as terribly mature. Or productive for that matter.

 

* Sam also realized almost immediately that Dean wasn't Dean in "Skin," realized that Dean was afraid of flying in "Phantom Traveler," and realized that something was bothering Dean in "Something Wicked." So I disagree that Sam doesn't notice things concerning Dean unless they become very obvious. (There's likely a bunch of other stuff, but I'll stick to season 1 so as to remain non-spoilery for this thread).

 

** And Dean at that point either didn't seem to realize that Sam needed / wanted to talk and that that might have helped Sam, or his own pain and need for denial was more important to Dean than helping Sam deal / heal along with him.

 

To be fair to Sam, things tend to blow up in his face pretty badly, so even if Sam weren't so thoughtless, I think things still might have turned out the same way -- my issue is more that it makes Sam seem so childish (in a terrible way) that his empathy is so limited/undeveloped.

 

Maybe it's because things are often told from Dean's point of view that he is often seen as more empathetic / less "thoughtless." I mean, to me, Sam seemed pretty empathetic and thoughtful when he tried to get Dean to talk about John. And when Dean punched Sam (Bloodlust, I think), that didn't seem very empathetic or thoughtful to me, but it seems that it's often Sam who's called out when he isn't immediately helpful to Dean, but not the other way around.

 

Dean wasn't the only one hurting when John died. In "Everybody Loves A Clown," Sam had a lot of guilt to deal with on top of his grief, and instead of Dean being helpful with that, he mostly just pointed it out to Sam and then said "well, tough. It's your fault: too little, too late." And when Sam came back to admit that Dean was right, pouring his heart out and looking for comfort or someone to grieve with, Dean gave him nothing. And there wasn't even any lying or any extenuating circumstances involved there - just Sam obviously hurting and Dean wallowing in his own feelings rather than sympathizing. I'm not sure how that was much less thoughtless than what Sam did in this episode, * but miles vary, I guess.

 

* It's true that two wrongs don't make a right, but Sam here was also somewhat angry (and in my opinion, understandably so), so I'm not sure why he's expected to be sympathetic and helpful to Dean in this situation, when Dean couldn't even be bothered when Sam hadn't done anything in my opinion that warranted Dean's cold shoulder and he was still given one, but Dean is excused.

Edited January 4, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[rue721]

After trying to reply what feels like INFINITE times and then having something happen every single damn time, I have come to the conclusion that my reply is cursed and will just try to get out what I can!

 

Maybe I'm being dense or inarticulate, but I don't actually disagree with your post, AwesomeO4000?

 

I mean "sensitive" as in perceptive, alert, thinking about things from all the angles possible. "Empathy" as in canny, good at understanding/anticipating how other people are perceiving or will perceive things. "Thoughtless" as in literally not giving the matter much thought. Honestly, I'm too tired atm to go back to see if I was being inarticulate (very possible) or just wrong (also very possible) or what.

 

For now:  Sam sometimes comes off to me like Candide, wondering around guilelessly. I get fed up with Sam's lack of agency, and get even *more* fed up with the pattern that, when Sam actually does *finally* get some control over his life, the decisions he makes for himself are ludicrously poor. He's not a child and he's not an idiot, so I don't understand how/why that's the case? But that's what happened in this episode, imo.

 

I don't even think that Sam was all that pissed off at Dean in particular for dropping the bomb about John's final wishes, despite Dean saying so later in the episode. I think that the news freaked Sam out (understandable) and to pull himself out of that freakout, he glommed onto the idea of investigating the Psychic Kids and decided to take control over his life (fair enough so far, imo, and in-character)...by fleeing in a stolen car in the middle of the night (ridiculous and not-so-much in-character, imo).

 

Dean wasn't the only one hurting when John died. In "Everybody Loves A Clown," Sam had a lot of guilt to deal with on top of his grief, and instead of Dean being helpful with that, he mostly just pointed it out to Sam and then said "well, tough. It's your fault: too little, too late." And when Sam came back to admit that Dean was right, pouring his heart out and looking for comfort or someone to grieve with, Dean gave him nothing. And there wasn't even any lying or any extenuating circumstances involved there - just Sam obviously hurting and Dean wallowing in his own feelings rather than sympathizing. I'm not sure how that was much less thoughtless than what Sam did in this episode, * but miles vary, I guess.

 

Yes, IA that Dean handled that poorly. When Sam poured his heart out, iIrc Dean reciprocated so little he might as well have been an Easter Island head. But of course he did, is he even capable of having the kind of conversations that Sam was trying to have, let alone when he's also struggling? Overall, I thought they both handled John's death much better than expected, though. How could that have been better?

 

I feel like from basically the pilot up to the present day, the pattern is that Dean isolates himself and seems like he's ruminating all the time when he's upset, and then god forbid he's feeling guilty, too, because then he's also overly defensive and liable to lash out in fits of anger from time to time. I felt bad for Sam when Sam kept trying to drop hints that he wanted to have a heart-to-heart, and Dean kept shutting him down more and more forcefully. But I also felt like Sam was being kind of hardheaded, because soul-baring is basically the opposite of how Dean deals with things going bad, his way is to close himself off *more* and put on *more* of an act, so it couldn't have been a shocker that Dean was going to shut down Sam's hints/requests to talk? OTOH, who else was Sam going to go to...so, a bad situation all around imo.

 

Anyway, I think that, like Sam ultimately had to pour his heart out because he was extremely messed up and needed to let it out in order to be OK "enough" to keep going, Dean was extremely messed up and had to put his feelings on lockdown as much as he possibly could in order to feel OK "enough," too. They've got different ways of dealing, and unfortunately, their ways aren't that compatible.

 

I do feel bad for Sam because when he's having trouble, he obviously needs to connect to somebody -- but even though Dean is there and they love each other, Dean is not really equipped to be that somebody. This is what friends and SOs are for, but of course they don't really have those. (And maybe this is also why Sam really *should* get a dog :P).

Edited January 6, 2015 by rue721

[AwesomO4000]

I mean "sensitive" as in perceptive, alert, thinking about things from all the angles possible. "Empathy" as in canny, good at understanding/anticipating how other people are perceiving or will perceive things. "Thoughtless" as in literally not giving the matter much thought. Honestly, I'm too tired atm to go back to see if I was being inarticulate (very possible) or just wrong (also very possible) or what.

 

For now:  Sam sometimes comes off to me like Candide, wondering around guilelessly. I get fed up with Sam's lack of agency, and get even *more* fed up with the pattern that, when Sam actually does *finally* get some control over his life, the decisions he makes for himself are ludicrously poor. He's not a child and he's not an idiot, so I don't understand how/why that's the case? But that's what happened in this episode, imo.

 

I thought that might be what you meant, so I also covered that in my answer in addition to sensitive and empathetic in the caring sense way. And as I explained with my examples - most of them in the "footnotes" * - that in that regard, I ... pretty much disagree (again, sorry : (, I tried). I'm trying to see your point that Sam isn't perceptive and thinking about things from different angles, but I see too many examples where he is and does. In addition to the examples I gave above - especially the "Skin" example - there have been plenty of times for me that Sam has picked things up about Dean rather quickly. Some other non-spoilery at this juncture examples - Sam sensing Dean might be present somehow in "In My Time of Dying," Sam realizing that Dean was using Gordon as a John substitute in "Bloodlust," Sam realizing that Dean was somewhat off his game in general in the beginning of season 2 (I think most notably in "Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things,") correctly guessing that Dean was freaked out about his (Sam's) "psychic stuff" as revealed in "Simon Said,"  and guessing that Dean had considered making a deal for John in "Crossroads Blues." He also showed some quick and different angle thinking in "The Usual Suspects," taking Dean's information and running with it while Dean was incarcerated, figuring out that it was the partner who was the killer. Oh and I forgot for the season 1 examples above that Sam also sensed that Dean was in trouble in "Scarecrow." In many of those examples, I thought Sam was very good at figuring out how Dean perceived things and/or would react ("Bloodlust", "Children...", "Crossroad...", and "Simon Said"). Even in "Everybody Loves A Clown" it seemed like he knew Dean was pretty much going to non-react to his admission "I'll let you get back to work."

 

As for Sam making bad decisions on his own - I partially agree with you there, but not all of Sam's "bad' decisions are necessarily his fault or even bad per se. Not killing John, for example, should have been a good decision in my opinion. Ditto

not killing Jake

. That they turned out entirely badly wasn't necessarily Sam's fault. As for Sam's bad decisions, things are sometimes stacked against him. The revenge scenario for example.

Sam does it - total disaster and Lucifer is raised. ** Dean does it - and he saves the world by killing Dick Roman.

What that tells me more is that Sam has awful luck just as much as he makes bad decisions. It's just that in the case of Sam's bad decisions, in my opinion, the show Never. Lets. It. Go. Ever. Dean's bad decisions on the other hand, are often not mentioned more than once, and then usually not again.

 

As for this episode, after thinking about it, I'm actually wondering if Sam did give it some thought and that's one of the reasons why he chose leaving in the middle of the night. Maybe Sam thought that Dean would react badly to him wanting to find answers on his own rather than going to Amsterdam (or whatever Dean's not face the situation answer was), and so wanted to get a head start so that Dean would have a harder time finding him and he might be able to get something done before Dean did find him. He even anticipated that Dean would call Ellen - he gave that some thought ahead of time - and even called Ellen to try to head that off at the pass. So I think that you are correct in that not all of Sam's non-contact was due to him being angry and/or annoyed. I think some of it was maybe strategy - i.e. not give Dean any clues to finding him by communicating. Maybe he thought that Dean would trace/ bug/ listen to the background of / his calls or texts. (I don't know myself. I'm technologically impaired.) I'm not saying that it was good strategy or nice to his brother strategy, but maybe it was strategy of sorts?

 

* leave it to me to use footnotes in message board posts, but for some reason I often do - mostly because my comments probably would go all over the place otherwise. The footnotes let me tangent (yup I made that a verb) without losing the train of thought of the post (hopefully anyway).

 

** I'm also not sure what Sam was even supposed to do in his situation in season 4.

How were he and Dean supposed to stop the seals from breaking anyway? I never really got what the angels' (at least Castiel's) plan was supposed to be. Kind of a lose / lose situation if you ask me, because if Sam had done what he was asked - stop using his powers - he and Dean likely would've been dead and Castiel for sure. So what was the plan if / when Sam and Dean were killed? I guess they would've raised Sam back and resurrected Dean again (likely later on, so Sam would again be alone and more easily manipulated) or maybe Adam? I'm stumped.

Edited January 6, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[rue721]

So I think that you are correct in that not all of Sam's non-contact was due to him being angry and/or annoyed. I think some of it was maybe strategy - i.e. not give Dean any clues to finding him by communicating. Maybe he thought that Dean would trace/ bug/ listen to the background of / his calls or texts. (I don't know myself. I'm technologically impaired.) I'm not saying that it was good strategy or nice to his brother strategy, but maybe it was strategy of sorts?

 

Yeah, I think he knew that Dean would come after him, and what mattered to him was the timing (and keeping tabs on Dean's pace, too), and holding Dean off long enough that he could make headway in the investigation and get things set up. I think that the whole idea was that Sam was setting up a sort of "mousetrap" for Dean (to "trap" him in the Psychic Kids investigation), just like Sam later set up the "mousetrap" for Gordon with the warehouse/cops. Sam led Dean into the "trap" of the Psychic Kids investigation by running off -- Sam was the "cheese" used to set that trap imo. I'll have to rewatch the episode for particulars, though, it's been a few days (weeks?).

 

From what I do remember, I think Sam's overall goal was to either use whatever he gleaned from his Psychic Kids investigation (sans Dean) as extra leverage in the next installment of the "should we flee or investigate the Psychic Kids stuff more" discussion, since Dean just outright over-ruled him in the first go-round and he obviously did need more leverage to have a hope of convincing his brother to go along with him, or even just to straight up get his brother deep enough into the investigation that he'd be "trapped" in it and would feel like the only way out was through.

 

Sam pretty obviously knew that when Dean showed up, it was going to be to save rather than to kill him, and he also pretty obviously wasn't dumping Dean forever, so I think that this was supposed to prove a point or get him his way rather than it was a real I'M RUNNING AWAY AND YOU CAN'T STOP ME!!1! thing.

 

In the end, I think that what convinced Dean to go along with Sam's desire to continue the investigation and what convinced him to be more respectful of Sam('s choice) was actually Sam's cleverness in dealing with Gordon, which imo is also why they had Dean congratulating Sam on that at the end of the episode (when the police were taking Gordon away).

 

As for Sam making bad decisions on his own - I partially agree with you there, but not all of Sam's "bad' decisions are necessarily his fault or even bad per se.

 

I don't think it's Sam's fault -- within the world of the show, I actually don't think he's supposed to be passive or powerless or lacking in agency (though maybe? He *does* get kidnapped and tied down a lot. Who knows). I think it's more of a meta/structural issue.

 

Sam doesn't make a lot of his own decisions onscreen or a lot of major decisions independently, so the decisions he makes independently carry a lot of (narrative) weight. Imo the show tries to take advantage of their narrative weight by milking them for all they're worth, which usually means doling out very little information about them drawn out for as long a period as possible -- making them ~mysterious~ (aka, take place off screen) or ~complicated~ (aka, OOC), etc. Often, imo the show doesn't actually deliver on explaining they ~mystery~ of the decisions or even explaining why they're not out of character, and ultimately, instead of the decisions seeming mysterious or clever, many of them seem (and therefore Sam often seems) enigmatic or like they're coming out of left field. JMV. I don't think that that's a huge issue in this episode, though I doubt that the storylines even could have been switched between characters, and if they were, I *highly* doubt that the decision to flee in the night would have been written similarly -- because I think that the writers would (rightfully!) have said it was too confusing or we didn't have enough perspective on it.

 

ETA:

 

Also, I think that Sam's track record in terms of him having good, or at least reasonable, decisions turn out to have *terrible* consequences, is kind of too poor to be believable. When John was bitching about how it was too bad that Sam didn't shoot him in the heart, I felt like that was extreme. Etc. His track record is so poor that it sometimes makes it seem like the show doesn't want him to have agency, or like he gets punished when he has agency.

 

But maybe that's even supposed to be happening within-show, too. I don't remember, weren't there all kinds of manipulations going on by YED et al? So maybe Sam had demons screwing up everything for him, and there is a within-show explanation for all that. Well, and plus, Sam has that whole complex about being corrupted or wrong or something. That might come into it, too, as a within-show explanation for his relative lack of agency.

 

I'm trying to see your point that Sam isn't perceptive and thinking about things from different angles, but I see too many examples where he is and does.

 

OK, I'll think about this and hopefully will have something interesting to say about it tomorrow. Sam seems like he gets tunnel vision to me, but maybe something else is going on.

 

What threw me in this particular episode was how certain Sam was that there were no circumstances under which Dean would kill him. He didn't seem to doubt it for a second -- even though Dean obviously was torn up about John's final wishes. I guess Dean was torn up because he knew he would disobey them?

 

I wonder what was going through Sam's mind, why *he* thought that Dean was telling him about John's last words. And why he was so certain that Dean would choose protecting him over obeying John. Or maybe -- was running off and seeing whether Dean tried to kill or tried to save him actually a *test*?

Edited January 6, 2015 by rue721

[Dobian]

I'd like to know how Sam was tripping the trip wires from a safe distance, plus the fact that he wasn't fooled by the second trip wire.  I do like the suspense of building up to that eventual moment when Dean may have to decide whether he should save or kill Sam.

[AwesomO4000]

Weirdly it's one of the things Sam seems to be good at: finding/recognizing trip wires. He does it at least once more in the series, stopping everyone else short from blundering into one.

 

Besides Sam had advanced warning from Ava that he might get blown up, so I'm sure he was being extra vigilant about it. I'm also guessing he threw his boot at the second trip wire, using it as bait to make it look like he'd been blown up.

[Diane]

This is the episode that never ends.  Way to much Gordon and Ava got on my last nerve.  Jensen's acting is superb when he thinks Sam is blown up. I did like the opening love "White Rabbit" Glad I am through this one.

Spoiler

So glad Gordon is no longer on the show, couldn't stand his character.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Diane

[Katy M]

21 hours ago, Diane said:

Way to much Gordon and Ava got on my last nerve.

You can never have too much Gordon.  And Ava's awesome.  She said so herself. 

[bettername2come]

10 years later and "He said I might have to kill you, Sammy" still elicits a wounded scream from me on rewatch. 

My immense love of Ellen continues and is made stronger by her calling Sam "sweetie."

Katharine Isabelle as Ava has this great energy. I really believe her as someone gets thrown into the supernatural crap without understanding it and really wants to help. 

Gordan is a psycho. Watching Dean punch him in the face is immensely satisfying. How I can hate this character so much and love Sterling K. Brown so much is a fascinating dichotomy. 

And among things that get funnier from the future 

Spoiler

Gordan asks Dean what he would do if he had young Hitler in his car. Considering just how immensely proud Dean was this season of killing Hilter, I am deeply amused. 

Jensen does some great work when he thinks Sam's dead, and I love his muffled "son of a bitch!" through the gag, and his immediately going to kick Gordon's ass when he sees blood on Sam's face.

Sam being too smart for a trap, winning a fight and setting his own trap: these are the things I live for.

[The Companion]

On 7/15/2014 at 6:33 AM, DittyDotDot said:

This is another one of those mixed episodes for me. I LOVE Ava even though the physic kids storyline was never a favorite; LOVE to hate Gordon; LOVE the White Rabbit sequence; LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Dean tackling and beating on Gordon; LOVE "Funky Town" and find Dean tied to that little chair and the rope barely tied rather amusing; and LOVE that Gordon gets arrested because Sam is a "fine, upstanding citizen."  Could have lived without Sam running off without a word to Dean; and some of Gordon's monologue.

I'm going to go on a little rant here...it absolutely grates on my nerves that Sam just up and leaves in the middle of the night with out even leaving a note or something to let Dean know he was at least okay. That's what John did a year earlier--actually their asshole-of-a-father at least had the courtesy to give Dean a call and tell him to be careful.  I'm not begrudging Sam his wanting to find some answers and I'm not begrudging him going to find them, I'm just a bit annoyed at how he did it. It's very 14-year-old behavior. And trying to put Ellen in the middle of it was even more crappy, but the most annoying part for me was that he couldn't call and let Dean know he was okay, but the moment someone starts shooting at him it's time to call Dean for help. Seriously, 14-year-old-behavior. Okay rant over.

There are some really good and interesting things happening in this episode, but Sam running off always drags it down for me. Plus, the whole Earth-shattering-secret-that-was-neither-Earth-shattering-nor-secret-at-this-point speech really is marred by how they drug it out too long and I really didn't care about it any longer.

All of this.

On 7/15/2014 at 8:10 PM, catrox14 said:

I love this episode solely for the scene with Dean tied up because ALL THE AWARDS to Jensen for showing Dean's fear, grief and rage when he thought Sam had been blown apart with just face and eye acting, Stunning work.

Yes! The mixture of hope and fear and despair. 

On 7/15/2014 at 8:45 PM, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, I find that there was a certain--albeit whack-a-do--logic to what he was doing. In his own messed up way, he was trying to save folks too.

I think we are meant to contrast this with Dean almost shooting the potentially infected kid the week before but it just doesn't work. Partly because he doesn't only because of Dean as the good angel on his shoulder and partly because the kid represented a potential immediate danger. 

On 7/16/2014 at 12:12 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think there was stolen stuff put in his car...the cops searched his car and found his weapons rack. Those were his, though, in Bloodlust they establish them. I too, thought it was a good solution to a human problem.

They mentioned the murder, so I suspect the anonymous tip also indicated the guy was the perpetrator. I agree it was a good solution. 

I did love how Dean was rooting for his brother to get laid. That was on brand lol. 

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, The Companion said:

They mentioned the murder, so I suspect the anonymous tip also indicated the guy was the perpetrator. I agree it was a good solution. 

I love this epi, but the thing that bothered me was the timing.  If they showed up 1 minute later, Gordon probably would have shot one of them.  A few minutes earlier and they'd have had some 'splaining to do.  Plus, Gordon is shooting into the ditch when the cops get there and not one cop goes to investigate what/who he's shooting at?  That should have been the first thing they did after securing him.  There could be an injured person down there.  Why would they assume he's shooting at empty air?

[The Companion]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I love this epi, but the thing that bothered me was the timing.  If they showed up 1 minute later, Gordon probably would have shot one of them.  A few minutes earlier and they'd have had some 'splaining to do.  Plus, Gordon is shooting into the ditch when the cops get there and not one cop goes to investigate what/who he's shooting at?  That should have been the first thing they did after securing him.  There could be an injured person down there.  Why would they assume he's shooting at empty air?

Because plot reasons? I am told that happens. Lol. I was thinking the anonymous tip was pretty precisely timed. I guess they would have found a kidnapping if they came early enough.