Book to Show: Compare and Contrast

[DoctorAtomic]

The names doesn't sound like it does in my head! I never read it - Eyez-sed-i. That's just funny to me because I typically butcher names.  I always said TA-ver-an. That's going to crack me up.

I'm averse to the episode threads proper because I don't want to spoil. This is my E1 discussion. I think I'm going to clear out the rest by next week.

Was Fain introduced so early? I don't care, but I thought they met him after they left. 

It's kind of silly that 'we don't know if the Dragon is a boy or a girl', even since the animated short made it clear that the Dark One tainted the men. But, whatever. I am in no way a purist, and it bothers me ziltch. I liked that the initial gentling was painful though. I get Perrin being married because they aged everyone up. 

I always liked Lan, but after 20 minutes, they've done about 1000% better with him on the show. Also Ny. I always liked her being mad. I get mad. It's ok. Slight nit, Moiraine was supposed to be really short, no? I mean, it's not a deal. The actor playing Tam is perfect wow.  

 

[SueB]

Second watch tidbits: so Mat likes older women?  How did I not pick that up in the books? (Before later on). 
 

I also liked the Two Rivers people fighting back. 
 

I’m seriously disappointed in Mat’s family but love Tam.  And Egwene’s parents.  

Edited November 20, 2021 by SueB

[DoctorAtomic]

13 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I just can't take the Whitecloaks seriously, with their lack of armor, very impractical clothing and not bothering to ask Moirane the obvious question "Are you Aes Sedai?".

I never could take them seriously. They're patently ridiculous. I mean, I get in places like Two Rivers in the west, you're going to get militias coming through. Two Rivers never really had a national Andor identity. But, the richer nations? No. 

It was such a slog whenever there was Whitecloack heavy plots. I mean, I can get that there's people who just don't want channeling. But it's there. It struck me more as a church/state issue. These guys seemed more vigilantes. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[quarks]

11 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Was Fain introduced so early? I don't care, but I thought they met him after they left. 

 

Yeah - in the books Fain is one of the first characters to arrive. He shows up right before the village feast, and tells them about Logain.

I am kinda surprised that the show didn't really have him do the same thing here. The result was that he came off as a seriously minor, one off character, and over on the episode threads non-book readers are going, uh, are we supposed to know who the guy in the cage is?  Which if you've only seen the show, is a valid question! They mentioned Logain a couple of times in the show, but not in a "just wait until this guy shows up!" sorta way.

[DoctorAtomic]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

Second watch tidbits: so Mat likes older women?  How did I not pick that up in the books? (Before later on).

Dude. I missed *all* the 'pillow friends' hoyay the first time around. (I'm fine with all that.) You can't have good genre without the hoyay. Don't feel bad. 

[DoctorAtomic]

1 minute ago, quarks said:

Yeah - in the books Fain is one of the first characters to arrive. He shows up right before the village feast, and tells them about Logain.

Oh, right. I wasn't calling bs, but Mat was all 'FU PADAN FAIN', and I just didn't recall. I know he was in there early. 

I'm reaching deep, deep into my memory banks here. Good we have this thread to ramble. I had to look at the online wiki earlier in the week. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't recall Mat's home life being so awful, but again, I'll roll with it. I didn't think he needed much push to leave. I'm wondering if the non book readers are going to be calling bs on the three 'getting lucky' all the time. 

Loved the close up on the heron mark sword all the way in the first episode. Rand going toe to toe against the Seanchan down the line is just a great scene I'm looking forward to. 

I think the fight in the Two Rivers folk on the show is laying the groundwork if they get that far in the series to Menetheren. 

Didn't Moraine have time to test the village women to see who could channel before they all left? There were some of them. The end of E1 with just the four up and leaving seemed abrupt.

[quarks]

9 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't recall Mat's home life being so awful, but again, I'll roll with it. I didn't think he needed much push to leave. I'm wondering if the non book readers are going to be calling bs on the three 'getting lucky' all the time. 

His home life wasn't that awful in the books. His father ends up being a semi-leader of the Two Rivers, reporting to Perrin. 

I think the whole thing about needing to protect his sisters makes his decision to leave a little less explicable than it was in the books. In the books it was all, seeing more of the world than the Two Rivers, yay! Here it was....uh, you've just realized yet again that your sisters desperately need you, and yet, here you are, taking off. I mean, I get that his home life sucked, but.

It was also in huge contrast to the other three in the show, who all had solid reasons for leaving.

13 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Didn't Moraine have time to test the village women to see who could channel before they all left? There were some of them. The end of E1 with just the four up and leaving seemed abrupt.

I think she recognized Nynaeve's ability immediately, and meant to talk more with her about it. The other women, no.

And yeah, that last scene needed something more, I thought - some sort of dialogue with the family members they were leaving behind, at least.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

33 minutes ago, quarks said:

His home life wasn't that awful in the books. His father ends up being a semi-leader of the Two Rivers, reporting to Perrin. 

Right. I forgot that. I was posting off the top of my head. I honestly don't remember how they left Two Rivers. Mat just wanting to take off iirc wasn't a big deal. 

38 minutes ago, quarks said:

I think she recognized Nynaeve's ability immediately, and meant to talk more with her about it. The other women, no.

On the show, E1, yes. In the books, that was my question. iirc, which was a long time ago, Moraine tested Ewgene who could channel, and she was like packing to go to the White Tower that day. She tested all the girls while she was there. It's not a big deal for the tv show. I'm just trying to line it up.

 

[quarks]

2 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

On the show, E1, yes. In the books, that was my question. iirc, which was a long time ago, Moraine tested Ewgene who could channel, and she was like packing to go to the White Tower that day. She tested all the girls while she was there. It's not a big deal for the tv show. I'm just trying to line it up.

 

Ok, this is where my memory is a bit fuzzy. 

In the books, I thought that Moiraine instantly recognized that Nynaeve could channel and already was channeling, and sensed the potential in Egwene, but didn't test anyone else. 

Everyone else was tested later by Verin and Alanna.

But I could be way off with this. 

 

[Blue Plastic]

I didn’t like the aging up of the Two Rivers characters. Been a long time since I read the first book, but my impression was that Egwene and Rand were kinda betrothed but not really that into each other.  What did Perrin need to be married for?  Did not compute.  I don’t see what that adds to the story except a bigger sob story for Perrin.  I just liked them being a bit younger, a bit more innocent and just expecting to have fun at Bel Tine, then BAM their lives change fast and they can’t be just carefree kids anymore. Aging them forward a couple years took that “end of childhood” aspect away.  Did I mention Perrin was married?  Hated that!!

I realize they need to push things forward and not move at the glacial pace the books took on, though.

[Jack Shaftoe]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I never could take them seriously. They're patently ridiculous. I mean, I get in places like Two Rivers in the west, you're going to get militias coming through. Two Rivers never really had a national Andor identity. But, the richer nations? No. 

I couldn't take them seriously in the books either. My point is that the show obviously tried to make them more of a valid threat but made them even cartoonish instead.

[DoctorAtomic]

I only watched E1. I haven't gotten to them yet. They never really did a lot except get in the way. 

I know there were Two Rivers girls in the Tower, but I don't remember who tested them. I thought Moraine did. I thought she was there way longer before the Trollocs hit. 

[Black Knight]

8 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I thought Moraine did. I thought she was there way longer before the Trollocs hit. 

No, the Trollocs attacked almost immediately after Moiraine's arrival. The book, after the prologue with Lews Therin, opens with Rand meeting up with his friends (and being watched by the Myrddraal) and going into town for Beltine, where they hear about the strangers (Moiraine and Lan) who have just arrived, meet them, and then Rand goes back to his farm. That night the Trollocs launch their attack.

[DoctorAtomic]

Good someone knows what's going on then. Having this thread is helpful. 

I did like Moraine channeling, but then I had a good laugh because she's not particularly strong. I'm excited to see 1 - when you get some real channeling and 2 - what it's going to look like for the guys. I hope they can really make the taint tangible. 

[Humbugged]

21 hours ago, quarks said:

Ok, this is where my memory is a bit fuzzy. 

In the books, I thought that Moiraine instantly recognized that Nynaeve could channel and already was channeling, and sensed the potential in Egwene, but didn't test anyone else. 

Everyone else was tested later by Verin and Alanna.

But I could be way off with this. 

 

 

No Verin and Alanna (probably because 2 mega channelers were found there and went to nozy around) did it in book 4 when Perrin goes back and there is a shit ton of channelers - like Mat's sister

They turn up in book 6 yanking there braids which is when Alanna pulls her shit on Rand

[Humbugged]

21 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

I didn’t like the aging up of the Two Rivers characters. Been a long time since I read the first book, but my impression was that Egwene and Rand were kinda betrothed but not really that into each other.  What did Perrin need to be married for?  Did not compute.  I don’t see what that adds to the story except a bigger sob story for Perrin.  I just liked them being a bit younger, a bit more innocent and just expecting to have fun at Bel Tine, then BAM their lives change fast and they can’t be just carefree kids anymore. Aging them forward a couple years took that “end of childhood” aspect away.  Did I mention Perrin was married?  Hated that!!

I realize they need to push things forward and not move at the glacial pace the books took on, though.

Because people would have complained like fuck when in 3 years time when they are sleeping with everybody in they were still '17' . Look at GOT and how the Stark sisters were treated when the started sex scenes even though they were old enough to be doing it ,compared to Danny who was aged up because they did not wants her to be 14 when she slept with Drogo

 

And the Perrin thing is all the stuff about him being scared was all internal ,same with Mat who we basically knew nothing about until book 3

[Black Knight]

35 minutes ago, Humbugged said:

Because people would have complained like fuck when in 3 years time when they are sleeping with everybody in they were still '17' . Look at GOT and how the Stark sisters were treated when the started sex scenes even though they were old enough to be doing it ,compared to Danny who was aged up because they did not wants her to be 14 when she slept with Drogo

Also GRRM himself said that he regretted making the kids so young and that in hindsight, he would have made them older. Granted, none of the WoT book crew was as young as Dany and most of the Stark kids when GoT began, but all the same, that probably had an effect.

But I think it's mostly that the books are quite juvenile and unrealistic in their handling of romance and Judkins was clearly aware of that. Aging the characters up allows him to skip all that. We won't have the nonsense from the books where Rand/Mat/Perrin all frequently whined about why couldn't he be good with women the way the other two were. Jordan obviously thought it was amusing, but it was stupid. It would have been annoying in itself, but it was extra annoying given that they were all extremely successful with women. And that success with women also required a suspension of disbelief given their youth and lack of experience, unless you want to drag the being ta'veren thing into it, which is problematic and icky in ways that the TV show would be wise to avoid. In the books Rand's ta'veren effect leads two people who can't stand each other to suddenly marry. I expect the show will leave that out as well as any other indication that anybody is getting romantically/sexually involved with any of the guys because of ta'veren. And we've already been told that Rand/Elayne/Aviendha/Min will be written as polyamory rather than Rand and his harem. It is a lot easier to explain that situation without bringing squicky ta'veren into it when the women aren't exclusive either.

[ElizaD]

On 11/20/2021 at 4:56 AM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they never explain how the Whitecloaks pulled that off or why the Tower doesn't retaliate more strongly. They needed a more human enemy and a darker scene for the trailer, hence the burning at the stake. After that... maybe the hunting of Aes Sedai will be quietly forgotten. I just can't take the Whitecloaks seriously, with their lack of armor, very impractical clothing and not bothering to ask Moirane the obvious question "Are you Aes Sedai?"

I thought that the questioning was written horribly, like Moiraine figuring out Nynaeve's age: trying to make her look smart but dumbing the dialogue down to a level where it's blatantly obvious what she's doing and not allowing the Whitecloaks to trap her by pursuing the leads she's giving. And the clothing was awful, IMO. But the show did offer a grisly visual answer to the question of how they managed to capture an Aes Sedai: her hands had been removed. Show Moiraine's channelling is very heavy on movement and gestures, and even in the books a channeller who learned a weave with a gesture can't make it work without both elements (for example, Aes Sedai throw fireballs but Wise Ones can do that faster because they learned to do a fireball weave without a physical gesture). So Whitecloaks can ambush or poison an Aes Sedai, disable her hands when she's unconscious or unable to respond fast enough, and then they can burn her alive.

Show Valda was very over the top, maybe a shade too serial killer gleeful rather than a fanatic without mercy, but in theory I think it's a good idea to make him more prominent as a villain. If Show Bornhald, the less anti-Aes Sedai Whitecloak, took his soldiers to the Two Rivers to help, that could give them authentic support there later in the story. The first episodes seemed very tween-early teen, but at least the opportunity for some moral complexity is present.

[Humbugged]

53 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I thought that the questioning was written horribly, like Moiraine figuring out Nynaeve's age: trying to make her look smart but dumbing the dialogue down to a level where it's blatantly obvious what she's doing and not allowing the Whitecloaks to trap her by pursuing the leads she's giving. And the clothing was awful, IMO. But the show did offer a grisly visual answer to the question of how they managed to capture an Aes Sedai: her hands had been removed. Show Moiraine's channelling is very heavy on movement and gestures, and even in the books a channeller who learned a weave with a gesture can't make it work without both elements (for example, Aes Sedai throw fireballs but Wise Ones can do that faster because they learned to do a fireball weave without a physical gesture). So Whitecloaks can ambush or poison an Aes Sedai, disable her hands when she's unconscious or unable to respond fast enough, and then they can burn her alive.

Show Valda was very over the top, maybe a shade too serial killer gleeful rather than a fanatic without mercy, but in theory I think it's a good idea to make him more prominent as a villain. If Show Bornhald, the less anti-Aes Sedai Whitecloak, took his soldiers to the Two Rivers to help, that could give them authentic support there later in the story. The first episodes seemed very tween-early teen, but at least the opportunity for some moral complexity is present.

Valda is a darkfriend

It is Bornhold's son that take the Whitecloaks to the Two Rivers

And Moraine finding out Nyn's age was done off page in the books - she asked the Women's Circle and the Council

Edited November 21, 2021 by Humbugged

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

Show Moiraine's channelling is very heavy on movement and gestures, and even in the books a channeller who learned a weave with a gesture can't make it work without both elements (for example, Aes Sedai throw fireballs but Wise Ones can do that faster because they learned to do a fireball weave without a physical gesture). So Whitecloaks can ambush or poison an Aes Sedai, disable her hands when she's unconscious or unable to respond fast enough, and then they can burn her alive.

In the books you can channel without waving your hands (maybe not quite as effectively, this is not all that clear) and nobody who has any clue about channeling is suicidal enough to think a tied-up/mutilated channeler is helpless, not even the Whitecloaks. In the extremely rare cases in which they manage to kill an Aes Sedai they do it as fast as possible. In the show we have already seen Moirane and even Egwene channeling without any gestures being necessary.

And yes, the questioning scene was badly written, I could just feel the writers patting each other at the back for having Moiraine tell the truth about the trollocs and referring to another Aes Sedai as her sister but it came across as really corny and contrived. Having Valda feel Moiraine up just in case some viewers weren't convinced he was a bad guy after the the burning at the stake scene was also rather unnecessary.

8 hours ago, Black Knight said:

But I think it's mostly that the books are quite juvenile and unrealistic in their handling of romance and Judkins was clearly aware of that. Aging the characters up allows him to skip all that.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, Hollywood writers often write just as terrible romance as Jordan or Sanderson.

[Danny Franks]

On 11/20/2021 at 5:20 AM, quarks said:

Ok, this is where my memory is a bit fuzzy. 

In the books, I thought that Moiraine instantly recognized that Nynaeve could channel and already was channeling, and sensed the potential in Egwene, but didn't test anyone else. 

Everyone else was tested later by Verin and Alanna.

But I could be way off with this. 

 

Moiraine recognised Nynaeve as a wilder immediately, which is why she called her "child" when they first spoke and sparked the enmity Nynaeve would feel for her. And she picked up on Egwene having the spark too, which is why she was so okay with her tagging along when they left.

Verin and Alanna were sent to check out the Two Rivers, and found the rest of the girls who could channel.

On 11/20/2021 at 5:44 AM, Blue Plastic said:

I didn’t like the aging up of the Two Rivers characters. Been a long time since I read the first book, but my impression was that Egwene and Rand were kinda betrothed but not really that into each other.

They were definitely into each other, but RJ went heavy on the 'boys and girls can't communicate properly' idea so both were too scared of actually saying anything about how they felt. They just got angry with each other, got jealous, tried to talk but one would storm off, and then the whole male channeler thing happens and suddenly their romance is dead in the water.

That trope repeats a bit with Perrin and Faile, as well as with Rand and his ladies. I think making the characters more emotionally and sexually mature smooths a lot of the annoying edges to the romance stories of the books.

On 11/20/2021 at 5:44 AM, Blue Plastic said:

What did Perrin need to be married for?  Did not compute.  I don’t see what that adds to the story except a bigger sob story for Perrin.  I just liked them being a bit younger, a bit more innocent and just expecting to have fun at Bel Tine, then BAM their lives change fast and they can’t be just carefree kids anymore. Aging them forward a couple years took that “end of childhood” aspect away.  Did I mention Perrin was married?  Hated that!!

So the thinking from the writers is that Perrin's ambivalence to violence, and his fear of the axe and how it makes him act is very internalised. In the books that's fine, because we get his POV and his inner thoughts, to explain it. On the screen we don't, so they wanted something that could efficiently lay all the groundwork for his struggles. 

I wasn't wild about him having a wife just so she could be killed, but it seems like it really worked for people who haven't read the books, as a shocking moment that made them really empathise with Perrin.

1 hour ago, Humbugged said:

Valda is a darkfriend

I don't think Valda was a darkfriend, just a particularly awful human being who schemed against Pedron Niall and seized power. Jaichim Carridin was the big, darkfriend White Cloak.

20 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Good someone knows what's going on then. Having this thread is helpful. 

I did like Moraine channeling, but then I had a good laugh because she's not particularly strong. I'm excited to see 1 - when you get some real channeling and 2 - what it's going to look like for the guys. I hope they can really make the taint tangible. 

She definitely does a lot of gesturing, which is kind of book accurate because RJ did talk about a lot of Aes Sedai being trained to use gestures that gave them a muscle memory to reinforce their... weave memory? 

But the trailer seemed to show Logain channeling without any of that, so it will be interesting to see how they develop the channeling logic in the show - will it just be Aes Sedai who are so dramatic with it? Will the Forsaken channel instantly, without any kind of movement? What about the Aiel Wise Ones?

[quarks]

57 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

They were definitely into each other, but RJ went heavy on the 'boys and girls can't communicate properly' idea so both were too scared of actually saying anything about how they felt. They just got angry with each other, got jealous, tried to talk but one would storm off, and then the whole male channeler thing happens and suddenly their romance is dead in the water.

That trope repeats a bit with Perrin and Faile, as well as with Rand and his ladies. I think making the characters more emotionally and sexually mature smooths a lot of the annoying edges to the romance stories of the books.

 

The romances (all the romances) were definitely the weakest part of the books for me, so I'm glad to see that the show is already tweaking this a bit. 

And also glad that the "Yeah, Rand/Egwene, not a great couple, potentially great friends" was established so quickly.

 

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

So the thinking from the writers is that Perrin's ambivalence to violence, and his fear of the axe and how it makes him act is very internalised. In the books that's fine, because we get his POV and his inner thoughts, to explain it. On the screen we don't, so they wanted something that could efficiently lay all the groundwork for his struggles. 

I wasn't wild about him having a wife just so she could be killed, but it seems like it really worked for people who haven't read the books, as a shocking moment that made them really empathise with Perrin.

 

The entire Perrin/Faile plotline was one of the least popular in the series, mostly, I think, because so much of it dragged on and on and on, and then just when you thought it was over, it started dragging on and on and on and on again, but also because Perrin's later obsession that "nothing matters but Faile!" wasn't, I think, all that well set up in the books, especially because we kept seeing other people go, "Auugh, my romantic interest is in danger/seriously needs help/I really need to be with this person" but then going and doing other critically important things. We saw this with major characters (Mat, Elayne, Nynaeve, Lan, Egwene, Min) and assorted minor characters. And the other main character who ended up going to rescue his love interest (Thom) was less, how to put this, obsessive about it. And sure, some of that was that Thom was older, and he and Moiraine weren't an established couple by that point, but that wasn't all of it. So the question became, why is Perrin the only character in this series so freaking obsessed with rescuing his love interest and telling everyone that she's the only thing that matters?

So I think the show does need to establish not just a reason for Perrin's ambivalence to violence and his fear of the axe, but also a reason why Perrin is so over the top/obsessive with the "nothing matters but Faile!" Still dealing with the trauma of his wife's death is one way to establish that. Not necessarily the best way, but one way.

[SueB]

Really appreciate all the discussion regarding Perrin and his dead wife. I’m now firmly on ‘good idea’ side of the aisle.  It just helps all the inner turmoil be obvious.  And him going ‘beast mode’ while killing the Trolloc also was a good idea.  Shows where the real debate lies. 
 

Also agree the aging-up, sexually mature, element was a good idea.  If we are going to buy into a polyamory relationship later, we need to have a society more comfortable with sexuality.  Which Dana neatly handled with assuming Mat/Rand were a couple.  Rand can still be a little old fashioned (had a vision of wide and kids at 20) to avoid him looking like a letch.  Mat looks a bit like a himbo but ‘meh’, goes with ‘scoundrel’. 
 

Do you think ‘Dana’ was a substitute for Mille?   Because Rand’s use of the power with Millie was what triggered a sickness and Mat was temporarily blinded?   He clearly used the power to get through ‘Ironwood’, but not sure it was a big enough use for uninitiated to notice. 

[Danny Franks]

Quote

Interesting but the key relationships in the story are well established and changes would likely require changes that should not be made if they are making the Wheel of Time.

So Rafe has said that, rather than Rand having three women in a polygamous relationship, he's looking at it as more of a polyamory situation, where the girls have some romantic interest in one another as well. It's not that much of a change, given that some readers think that Elayne and Aviendha are practically lovers by the end of the series, and that the Aiel sister-wives relationships are loosely defined enough that there's plenty of room for them to be interpreted as polyamorous.

I believe we're also getting the Moiraine/Suian relationship that was confirmed to exist in New Spring, but rather than a "pillow friends" thing it's supposed to be a more substantive, longstanding relationship.

Is Rafe planning to make Mat gay or anything like that? Not that I'm aware of, but taking Robert Jordan's text and subtext and developing it further is fine by me.

[quarks]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Do you think ‘Dana’ was a substitute for Mille?   Because Rand’s use of the power with Millie was what triggered a sickness and Mat was temporarily blinded?   He clearly used the power to get through ‘Ironwood’, but not sure it was a big enough use for uninitiated to notice. 

I thought Dana was partly meant as a book reader fakeout for Min. She fit all the parameters - she and Rand originally met in a tavern, and in the books she says she previously worked in some rougher mining areas. I was kinda surprised when she introduced herself as Dana.

I'm now kinda wondering if Rand will think about Dana when he finally gets around to meeting Min.

[DoctorAtomic]

tbh, all the 'romance' nonsense in the books just caused me to tune out most of the time. If, for the show, and I know this isn't going to happen, they decided that Rand wasn't going to be involved with anyone because he's the Dragon and he thinks he's going to go nuts, I'd be fine with it. 

I don't think you can make Mat totally gay though because he's supposed to marry the Seanchan (I can't wait to hear how that's not pronounced as it is in my head) princess. And he's with the queen of wherever for a while too. If they actually have them on the show. If they made Mat like Captain Jack that would be just as fine. 

I tend to think the AS do all the handwaving with the channeling more for show. I can't see a no nonsense Aiel gesticulating. 

Anyone watched any of the animated shorts?

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[staphdude]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

So Rafe has said that, rather than Rand having three women in a polygamous relationship, he's looking at it as more of a polyamory situation, where the girls have some romantic interest in one another as well. It's not that much of a change, given that some readers think that Elayne and Aviendha are practically lovers by the end of the series, and that the Aiel sister-wives relationships are loosely defined enough that there's plenty of room for them to be interpreted as polyamorous.

I believe we're also getting the Moiraine/Suian relationship that was confirmed to exist in New Spring, but rather than a "pillow friends" thing it's supposed to be a more substantive, longstanding relationship.

Is Rafe planning to make Mat gay or anything like that? Not that I'm aware of, but taking Robert Jordan's text and subtext and developing it further is fine by me.

Fine with all that it is just some of the commenters naive to the books seem to be looking for something that doesn’t exist in this world.

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm taking up E2 now. I'm 3 minutes in, and I already can't stand the whitecloaks. 

You're kind of limited by tv on what you can do with the Trollocs, but I think it's a good job. They were sufficiently unsettling and creepy. 

I do like how Moraine and Lan are 'talking' without saying anything. I imagine having to explain the bond might be difficult without being clunky.  Did they ever say 'the last dragon broke the world and the next will save it' in the books? Seems like I should remember that. 

Lan was always kind of aloof in the books for me early on, but I really like the actor's take. He's much much more of an actual person in the show. I can't wait till he mops the floor with Demandred. It looked to me that he actually likes Rand. I liked Lan sending everyone to bed. 

I like Rand getting all pissy and, then May was like, 'ok. Knock it off.' That's just perfect. 

When does Mat get his big hat? I always see him in my head with the hat. 

I think they're doing a decent job not just dumping information to overwhelm the viewer. I mean. you're riding horses around; you're going to talk.  

When they were talking about Manethern and Moiraine said the Queen took up too much of the power, the camera was right on Egwene. I don't know if that was deliberate or not, but if it was, nice work. 

Shout out to Bela already! 

Wow, Shadar Logoth looks kind of like I thought it would. 

I'm yelling at Mat not to pick up the dagger. I don't think he's going to listen. 

[Black Knight]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

So the question became, why is Perrin the only character in this series so freaking obsessed with rescuing his love interest and telling everyone that she's the only thing that matters?

So true. I actually liked Faile, but Perrin was my favorite of the three guys from early on (basically as soon as we got his POV) and it made me sad how he was on the periphery of the main plot so much of the time because he was focused on Faile to the exclusion of everything else. (My crackship for this series was Perrin/Moiraine. I liked their interactions and the moment where he walked in on her naked.)

I guess the justification for all that is that his obsession with Faile is what allowed him to resist the compulsion at the end and kill Lanfear instead of Moiraine, since if he had killed Moiraine, Faile would have died. Giving Perrin a previous wife whom he killed helps with explaining his obsession with Faile better.

[Humbugged]

1 hour ago, staphdude said:

Fine with all that it is just some of the commenters naive to the books seem to be looking for something that doesn’t exist in this world.

It does exist ,just not with the EF5 . As others have said plenty of the Aes Sedai are lesbians (pillow friends were always a thing) ,probably a load of the a load of the Aiel women and some of the Seafolk women ,just listening to a reread of Winters Heart and one of the Seafolk leaders is sleeping with a Carhein noblewoman (on the sly because the Carhien is married)

Nyn marries Lan,Perrin marries Faile ,Egwene is in love with Gawyn ,Loial marries a nice Ogier girl in Erith , Suain falls for Byrne  ,Moraine with Thom ,Mat marries Tuon and Rand has his whole 3 women thing but marries none of them

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

tbh, all the 'romance' nonsense in the books just caused me to tune out most of the time. If, for the show, and I know this isn't going to happen, they decided that Rand wasn't going to be involved with anyone because he's the Dragon and he thinks he's going to go nuts, I'd be fine with it. 

I don't think you can make Mat totally gay though because he's supposed to marry the Seanchan (I can't wait to hear how that's not pronounced as it is in my head) princess. And he's with the queen of wherever for a while too. If they actually have them on the show. If they made Mat like Captain Jack that would be just as fine. 

I tend to think the AS do all the handwaving with the channeling more for show. I can't see a no nonsense Aiel gesticulating. 

Anyone watched any of the animated shorts?

 

Two-on and when she becomes Empress Fort-u-ona . And Mat has a long list of women all through the books from all over the place including Tylen

And the Aes Sedai are the only ones who do the handwaving like you said the Aiel do not do it and neither does do the Seafolk

Edited November 22, 2021 by Humbugged

[Humbugged]

25 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Quote

When does Mat get his big hat

? I always see him in my head with the hat. 

 

I'm yelling at Mat not to pick up the dagger. I don't think he's going to listen. 

Book 4 when they go to the Waste . He got it of a Darkfriend trader via Lanfear

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Humbugged

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm as 21st century and woke as anyone, but pillow friends totally blew by me for about 15 years. 

[Black Knight]

6 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm as 21st century and woke as anyone, but pillow friends totally blew by me for about 15 years. 

Heh. I think it's something that wouldn't have been missed by any queer female reader. But in the books it wasn't significant; it was essentially "girls hooking up at their all-girls school" until they get out and start meeting guys. And it didn't have any effect on plot. Nothing would have played out differently whether Moiraine and Suian were actually hooking up when they were training as opposed to always being platonic friends. It's typical for the time Jordan was writing (he started writing this series in 1984), something thrown in to titillate those who catch the clues but not mattering in any real way. Every overt relationship was heterosexual and every relationship that made a difference to the plot was heterosexual. For something conceived in the '80s and the bulk of which was written in the '90s, that's pretty much the farthest you could expect of a mainstream fantasy series, so I'm not faulting Jordan. "Swords and sorcery" fantasy that didn't follow Dark Ages mores about sexuality and gender equality wasn't until a couple decades later.

Suian's relationship with Byrne is cringeworthy and it wouldn't surprise me if that is heavily changed or dumped altogether, because the million thinkpieces that would be written about the Amyrlin getting stilled and then forced to do laundry for a man she subsequently falls in love with would not be positive. It's probably the most misogynistic thing Jordan wrote in the entire series.

[DoctorAtomic]

In my defense, I wasn't as worldly wise when I started reading the books as I am now. 

8 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Suian's relationship with Byrne is cringeworthy

Also in my defense, I knew that wasn't good. 

tbh, all the so called romance was just so high school. With the world literally ending, it was such a waste of time to me. 

The only 'romance' scene I liked was Ny screaming at Rand and Lan trying to be about 75 light years away from the room. 

[quarks]

9 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Suian's relationship with Byrne is cringeworthy and it wouldn't surprise me if that is heavily changed or dumped altogether, because the million thinkpieces that would be written about the Amyrlin getting stilled and then forced to do laundry for a man she subsequently falls in love with would not be positive. It's probably the most misogynistic thing Jordan wrote in the entire series.

I also won't be surprised if this is completely dumped. Or even if Byrne is completely dumped as a character. I think most of his plot stuff can be given to another character or dropped entirely -- allowing the show to also drop Siuan/Byrne. 

[staphdude]

2 hours ago, Humbugged said:

It does exist ,just not with the EF5 . As others have said plenty of the Aes Sedai are lesbians (pillow friends were always a thing) ,probably a load of the a load of the Aiel women and some of the Seafolk women ,just listening to a reread of Winters Heart and one of the Seafolk leaders is sleeping with a Carhein noblewoman (on the sly because the Carhien is married)

Nyn marries Lan,Perrin marries Faile ,Egwene is in love with Gawyn ,Loial marries a nice Ogier girl in Erith , Suain falls for Byrne  ,Moraine with Thom ,Mat marries Tuon and Rand has his whole 3 women thing but marries none of them

Two-on and when she becomes Empress Fort-u-ona . And Mat has a long list of women all through the books from all over the place including Tylen

And the Aes Sedai are the only ones who do the handwaving like you said the Aiel do not do it and neither does do the Seafolk

Sorry I wasn’t clear. I guess I meant that while those relationships exist people immediately wanted these main characters, with well established relationships to be portrayed or matched differently.

[areca]

The diversity casting is really bothering me in the way it's being used. The books went very far out of their way to give so many different regions rich, deep, cultures. From customs, to politics, to physical characteristics, to food, to fashion, to music. The forced blend everywhere is very distracting, especially in places that are supposed to be backwater, out of the way places that no one has come to or left since The Breaking. There would have been no less diversity in this series given that it spans the entire globe, had they just let the cultures be what they are in the books.

[Myrelle]

On 11/19/2021 at 8:07 PM, MissL said:

I’ve only read the first book and after skimming this thread I’m a little nervous I’m going to be spoiled for the rest in here but wow it felt like a lot was changed in the first episode. Perrin married? Moraine walking around basically announcing she is Aes sedai? (Sorry spelling) Rand and Egwene hooking up? All of them are considered to be possible dragons not just the boys? I thought the fear of the dragon was that he’d be a male that touched the source? 
 

Trollocs were how I imagined them though.

I'm afraid that you are most definitely going to be spoiled for many of the following books in this thread.

That said, after watching the first three episodes, I'm all in.

Not really enamoured with Rand or Moiraine at all, but then again, I never was while reading the books either.

Perrin and Egwene weren't favorites either, but I like them both much better here.

It didn't bother me all that much that Perrin was married, and his killing his wife accidentally shocked me, but seemed realistically fitting under the circumstances.

I realize that much will have to be changed to adapt these books and Moraine's on the nose explanation about the taverene was likely part and parcel of more of what's to come in that regard, but we also got the song about Manatheran and the story of the old blood which still runs deep in the two rivers which was pretty awesome.

The separations at Shadar Logoth left out Mordeth, but I still found that pretty well done.

I hated what they did to Matt's family, but his story is one of my favorites along with Lan's and I'm still looking so forward to those two storylines.

I loved what they did with Liandrin and the menace of the red ajah at the beginning, and the whitecloaks, too.

And the trollocs too, of course!

So yeah, I'm all in for this, in spite of the many differences from the books that are inevitable in an endeavour of this size and scope. 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Myrelle

[ElizaD]

6 hours ago, quarks said:

I also won't be surprised if this is completely dumped. Or even if Byrne is completely dumped as a character. I think most of his plot stuff can be given to another character or dropped entirely -- allowing the show to also drop Siuan/Byrne. 

I don't think there's another male character in the rebel Tower storyline who could take Bryne's role, so maybe that would mean one of the show's Green sisters would get to be a great general (the Battle Ajah should do more to live up to its name). I hadn't considered the show might drop Bryne, but now I actually want it to happen. Considering all the other choices the show has made and how it will likely make Moiraine/Siuan more than a flashback fling, I don't see TV WOT having both those women end up in relationships with men. Thom will have a good role to play even without a Moiraine romance, but Bryne does surprisingly little for such a relatively big name.

[Humbugged]

people in 1.03 are confused how they got broken up so badly . So here is the map

 

So just next to the city the river splits in 2  - 1 part is the Caralain Grass (in blue)where Perrin/Eggy are driven towards the Tinkers by the wolves, to the south is Mat/Rand heading towards that other town and Lan/Moraine are stuck on the west bank where she is not well

Edited November 22, 2021 by Humbugged

[DearEvette]

So far with these three eps, I don't feel that the diversions from the book will have any impact on the overall bigger plot.  So far they have been character expediencies which can be explained by the inherent differences between being able to give long character explanations and history versus what you can fit in an episode of tv to establish character. 

I do wish we had gotten a little more sense of Tam's bad-assness.  In the books we find out early that Tam was a seasoned warrior who served for some very high and powerful men.  We got the glimpse of the heron marked sword, but the significance of this village councilman and cider maker having that sword gets a bit lost. Hopefully the show will give us a scene of Lan giving Rand the details about the sword.

Also the show has been good so far with showing the importance of the Aes Sedai but the book also made it clear that the egalitarian power wasn't limited to such high circles.  In Two Rivers the Women's circle had just as much power as the male dominated council.

I also love that they all got aged up.  One of my least favorite conventions of the genre is this idea that the 'chosen one' has to be some cow eyed youth who is forced to make all these world altering decisions. Also Perrin being married doesn't bother me.  On the one hand it makes sense that a young, working blacksmith in his early 20s who lives in that village would be married.  It is probably more common that people that age would be married in that time in that place at that age than not. I knew she would not be a factor since canonically he had to leave.  Her death was actually well done and frankly made sense.

Edited November 22, 2021 by DearEvette

[ElizaD]

37 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I do wish we had gotten a little more sense of Tam's bad-assness.  In the books we find out early that Tam was a seasoned warrior who served for some very high and powerful men.  We got the glimpse of the heron marked sword, but the significance of this village councilman and cider maker having that sword gets a bit lost. Hopefully the show will give us a scene of Lan giving Rand the details about the sword.

Maybe Thom will explain the heron? He had his bonding scene with Mat, next episode I hope he will have a similar moment with Rand so that their reunion in season 2 will feel like it's earned the emotion. When Rand is revealed as the Dragon, I'm expecting a flashback to Tam letting it slip that he's adopted (that would have ruined the mystery the show is trying to build) and another flashback to Captain Tam finding the baby.

[DoctorAtomic]

Where'd that map come from? I never saw it before. 

They zoomed in on the heron so hard that you know it's going to come back. Well, it has to anyway. Rand becoming a real swordsman was a cool development in the book. I mean, he goes toe to toe with the Seanchan noble. I would think Lan might be the one to talk about it. 

I would think there's plenty of time for some Tam flashbacks too. Rand is currently great with the bow. When he uses it, he may think of Tam and they can show a flashback. 

7 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I don't think there's another male character in the rebel Tower storyline who could take Bryne's role,

I think you still have to have Byrne because being such a 'great general' (I mean, they wouldn't shut up about it) essentially endorsing Egwene's rebel faction gives her a legitimacy than just being some 'rebel girl'. I don't think having it just be the greens leading the siege works. I would find it a stretch that they would have the stomach to attack the tower. Having Byrne there shows that that wider world, in a sense, has a stake in this. 

He does contribute a lot to the last battle too iirc if not just to hold the dark back until Mat and the heroes get out there. 

But you won't find me arguing about dropping any of these so-called 'romances' though. 

[DearEvette]

24 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I'm expecting a flashback to Tam letting it slip that he's adopted (that would have ruined the mystery the show is trying to build) and another flashback to Captain Tam finding the baby.

Agreed.  I think it is a fine line to tread as a reader knowing a lot of the info vs. understanding that the show is trying to build some suspense or create a narrative so that later on you get some good emotional and plot 'wow' payoffs.  I remember feeling a "whoa' moment when they reveal the history between the Aiel and Tuatha'an.

So I do hope the a future scene or flashback of Tam's past and Rand's is given a good reveal.

[Humbugged]

29 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Where'd that map come from? I never saw it before. 

They zoomed in on the heron so hard that you know it's going to come back. Well, it has to anyway. Rand becoming a real swordsman was a cool development in the book. I mean, he goes toe to toe with the Seanchan noble. I would think Lan might be the one to talk about it. 

I would think there's plenty of time for some Tam flashbacks too. Rand is currently great with the bow. When he uses it, he may think of Tam and they can show a flashback. 

I think you still have to have Byrne because being such a 'great general' (I mean, they wouldn't shut up about it) essentially endorsing Egwene's rebel faction gives her a legitimacy than just being some 'rebel girl'. I don't think having it just be the greens leading the siege works. I would find it a stretch that they would have the stomach to attack the tower. Having Byrne there shows that that wider world, in a sense, has a stake in this. 

He does contribute a lot to the last battle too iirc if not just to hold the dark back until Mat and the heroes get out there. 

But you won't find me arguing about dropping any of these so-called 'romances' though. 

There are a bunch of maps out there following all the characters book to book

 

17 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Agreed.  I think it is a fine line to tread as a reader knowing a lot of the info vs. understanding that the show is trying to build some suspense or create a narrative so that later on you get some good emotional and plot 'wow' payoffs.  I remember feeling a "whoa' moment when they reveal the history between the Aiel and Tuatha'an.

So I do hope the a future scene or flashback of Tam's past and Rand's is given a good reveal.

There is a bunch of flashbacks to come this season with LTT and the history of the leading up to the breaking.And they show The Blood Snows with Tigraine/ Shaiel fighting a guy wearing a guy wearing the unit that Tam served in

 

 

[ElizaD]

25 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I remember feeling a "whoa' moment when they reveal the history between the Aiel and Tuatha'an.

I wonder whether they could adjust the timelines a bit so that Perrin meets the Tinkers before Rand goes to Rhuidean. Most non-readers will have forgotten about them during their time offscreen, but if the show has Aram picking up the sword before Rand's vision that could give viewers the experience  book readers had with figuring out what's going on.

[Humbugged]

4 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I wonder whether they could adjust the timelines a bit so that Perrin meets the Tinkers before Rand goes to Rhuidean. Most non-readers will have forgotten about them during their time offscreen, but if the show has Aram picking up the sword before Rand's vision that could give viewers the experience  book readers had with figuring out what's going on.

Same book is it not . The Tinkers were broken at the same time as Rand was having his visions so it is not too much of a leap

Good call

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm totally impressed at the discussion here. When I first read the books, there was no internet (!) and no one else read them. Once I got my friends into the books, they all loved them, but I had to wait for them to catch up. 

I'm on E3 now. I totally don't remember anything about Ny escaping the Trollocs. You're not going to find me saying much bad about here at all thought. tbh, besides Rand, I think she's the greatest of the Third Age. 

I'm continuing to like this version of Lan. He talks! As much as I liked the guy, the 'stone faced' and 'flat glares' were a bit much. Also great fun with him and Ny fighting. They haven't done much with the warder's cloak yet. 

We haven't seen much  of the physics of channeling, and things have been happening so fast, that's fair. I would like to see how they do it on the show. 

They're making the world of dreams quite creepy too. 

I know it was supposed to be scary, but I'm laughing at the wolves chasing Perrin and Egwene. They're like, 'hey dude wait!' We're helping!!'

Wow, not what Thom looked liked in my head at all. Didn't he have a huge handlebar moustache? Didn't Rand meet Min at the tavern? Is she being held off for now because she doesn't do much for a while?

It's "EYE-eel"?!! I can't pronounce anything. I guess I got Tear right. It's going to be fun when we get to Illian the way they talk. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[Danny Franks]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

So far with these three eps, I don't feel that the diversions from the book will have any impact on the overall bigger plot.  So far they have been character expediencies which can be explained by the inherent differences between being able to give long character explanations and history versus what you can fit in an episode of tv to establish character. 

I do wish we had gotten a little more sense of Tam's bad-assness.  In the books we find out early that Tam was a seasoned warrior who served for some very high and powerful men.  We got the glimpse of the heron marked sword, but the significance of this village councilman and cider maker having that sword gets a bit lost. Hopefully the show will give us a scene of Lan giving Rand the details about the sword.

There are some plot repercussions down the line, but nothing that would do serious damage, as long as they've thought ahead and planned (which Rafe Judkins, Brandon Sanderson and Sarah Nakamura all insist they have).

For example, Moiraine telling them that one of them is the Dragon Reborn means it will be harder to have Rand doubt his destiny in season two, and believe that Moiraine is setting him up to be a False Dragon. And I'm not sure how they'll have Mat and Perrin both be in the dark about it.

I'd like to see Tam's sword discussed by Lan and Rand at some point, to set up Lan teaching Rand to use the sword and giving him tips to stand up to the Amyrlin Seat, and some version of Lan's line about Tam obviously once believing that sword was worth something.