Book to Show: Compare and Contrast

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

So those two choices really undermined the moment where Lewin raised his veil and signified that he was a new type of Aiel.

To be fair there, when his mother spurned him, the last shot was of him putting the veil up. So I think that got across.

 

[SueB]

Full spoilers.  Skip if you haven’t read the Book Series. 
 

Liked:
- I think they had to simply the object of power with it being Callendor and the new sphere thing (the Sarkarnen) vs Choden Kal. - Both future and Past scenes were very wel done

Dislikes:
- I will be major disappointed if Mat doesn’t go thru the Doorframe   I’m not sure Moraine will be going through the Doorframe. If she does, I suspect it’s only if there is a S4.  
 

On the fence:
- Mieran implies there is no technology in the future because people are still harvesting with hand tools   That’s a departure from what was always implied from the book version of the Age of Legends.  
- Egwene’s punk rock look   Not a fan.  

 
 

 

Speculation:

I think there is a good chance that if they were to make it to the end, it’ll only be Moraine and Rand.  Rosamund Pike’s Moraine is not going to play second banana to the character Nynaeve.

Moraine’s visions (IMO) showed Lanfear killing her but only after she slept with Rand.  So they may be simplifying her Lanfear conflict to be a fate she avoids.  
There was no path they showed where she was successful nn but I think k Moraine knows one.  And I don’t think she’ll bond Rand.  
 

Which leaves, ‘what to do with Lanfear?’ IMO they’ve made her very popular, although a psycho killer.  At least they S3, I think we’ll keep up the ‘influence’ triangle with Rand, Moraine, and Lanfear all trying to steer the ship.

 

 

 

[Atlanta]

It has been awhile since I read the books, but didn't Mat go through Rhuidean? IIRC, it is important for not just the character, but the story in general. But the show runner doesn't seem to care about the source material. I keep watching hoping it gets better. Mat and Nynaeve were my favorites.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I think they had to simply the object of power with it being Callendor and the new sphere thing (the Sarkarnen) vs Choden Kal.

I thought in the last Rand flashback that the ball controlled a larger object. So it's the controller for the Choden Kal on the women's side. Rand doesn't need a controller. 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Moraine’s visions (IMO) showed Lanfear killing her but only after she slept with Rand.

I think they all showed Lanfear slashing Moiraine's throat. I know the actor has been the main character for the first two seasons, but she's got to be taken off the board at some point. I mean, she's Gandalf. I think in the show, Moiraine has to take out Lanfear. It's too important, and they really set it up hard.

12 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

It has been awhile since I read the books, but didn't Mat go through Rhuidean? IIRC, it is important for not just the character, but the story in general. But the show runner doesn't seem to care about the source material. I keep watching hoping it gets better. Mat and Nynaeve were my favorites.

The behind the scenes episodes suggest to me that the showrunner is well steeped in the source material from what I've watched. As we all know, Mat was told to go to Rhuidean when he went through the doorway in Tear, which hasn't happened yet on the show (Tear), but was referenced clearly enough (they said Callandor several times) that they're going to have that play out. 

Given already that Mat knows he's a hero of the horn. He didn't say 'I remember now' in the books when he first blew the horn, and had his memories awaken on the show, which hadn't happened in the books until 5 when he got hanged, and that Rand was the one that rescued Mat from hanging, which Min already saw on the show, it's not too much of a stretch that on the show, Mat still walks through the doorway in Tear, but they compress that with Rhuidean, so he still ends up hanged, give up half the light of the world, daughter of the nine moons, and Rand is still there to rescue him with the same result, after Rand does it up with Callandor. 

I've been straight up from the start that I'm not a book purist; I mean, that's a whole other discussion, and there's some criticisms to level at the show, but the show runner seems to understand the big beats that need to be hit either by saying it in the behind the scenes, and they've all been shown or said on the show already; Tear, Mat hanging, Callandor, Moiraine/Lanfear. If it's not working at this point, than maybe it's just not going to be for this turn of the wheel. 

[quarks]

20 hours ago, Atlanta said:

It has been awhile since I read the books, but didn't Mat go through Rhuidean? IIRC, it is important for not just the character, but the story in general. But the show runner doesn't seem to care about the source material. I keep watching hoping it gets better. Mat and Nynaeve were my favorites.

Two things:

1. Mat didn't go through Rhuidean; he went to Rhuidean. And only because he had stepped through a certain twisted doorframe and encountered the Aelfinn, who told him to go to Rhuidean, where he found a second twisted doorframe, and entered that. He never used the items found only in Rhuidean - the glass columns, the arches, or the sa'angreal. 

Which means that Mat, as a character, doesn't need to go to Rhuidean - he just needs to go through a twisted doorway. We've already seen one of those on the show, in Tar Valon.

And based on Min's visions in episode three and a certain medallion in this season's poster, I think Mat will be going through a twisted doorway at some point in the next four episodes. 

2. Showrunner Rafe Judkins just forced his cast and crew to spend several days filming in extreme heat, and spent a rather significant amount of money to show us Rhuidean. (That shot of the Aiel singing just before things went booooooom? VERY EXPENSIVE SHOT.) So my sense is that he does care, quite a bit, about the source material.

Thing is, he's not the final decision maker. That's Sony and Amazon, who are mostly interested in money, and who have demanded at least some changes to the original scripts. The show also has to deal with the reality that it will get at most 8 seasons (and that might be optimistic), and Covid. 

[MissLucas]

I think focussing on Rand (and to a lesser extent Moraine) was the right decision - the reveal about the Aiel and their history is so explosive that Mat showing up in all that would have been a massive distraction. Truth be told that's exactly how I felt reading the books when Rand was not given much time to digest what he just experienced because he had to do CPR on his friend.

As @quarks has pointed out that particular part of Mat's journey does not necessarily have to take place in Rhuidean and Min's vision makes it clear that it will happen.

[DoctorAtomic]

If the show still has Mat go through two doorways, then he still can do the first at Tear and then the other one. 

[Danny Franks]

19 hours ago, quarks said:

Two things:

1. Mat didn't go through Rhuidean; he went to Rhuidean. And only because he had stepped through a certain twisted doorframe and encountered the Aelfinn, who told him to go to Rhuidean, where he found a second twisted doorframe, and entered that. He never used the items found only in Rhuidean - the glass columns, the arches, or the sa'angreal. 

Which means that Mat, as a character, doesn't need to go to Rhuidean - he just needs to go through a twisted doorway. We've already seen one of those on the show, in Tar Valon.

Right. It's nice that Mat goes to Rhuidean in the books, because there is a camaraderie between him and Rand that's welcome (although Mat is still secretly thinking of ways to get away from Rand for pretty much the whole journey). But he absolutely doesn't need to be there, if the twisted doorway isn't there.

We know they've not abandoned the Aelfinn/Eelfinn because of Min's viewing of Mat hanged. Though my guess is they'll combine them so he only goes through one doorway. So it's just a case of putting the doorway somewhere else. In Tanchico, Tar Valon or Tear is perfectly fine.

19 hours ago, quarks said:

2. Showrunner Rafe Judkins just forced his cast and crew to spend several days filming in extreme heat, and spent a rather significant amount of money to show us Rhuidean. (That shot of the Aiel singing just before things went booooooom? VERY EXPENSIVE SHOT.) So my sense is that he does care, quite a bit, about the source material.

Thing is, he's not the final decision maker. That's Sony and Amazon, who are mostly interested in money, and who have demanded at least some changes to the original scripts. The show also has to deal with the reality that it will get at most 8 seasons (and that might be optimistic), and Covid. 

Thank you. The cudgel of "Judkins/the writers don't care about the source material" is beyond tired, and utterly disproven with every episode. There's no way they could not know and care about the source material to produce the adaptation they have. Because it's absolutely clear that they're thinking about how to adapt the entire story, rather than just adapting scenes or chapters or even books. They're having to think several books ahead with every decision they make, and you can't do that without knowing them very well.

It's also curious that so many of the people who say that the writers don't care about the source material are often misremembering or selectively remembering the source material themselves.

I will also say that, when it comes to Mat, it's absolutely clear that they want to do his book three storyline, which is very popular with book readers, but they don't want to do the book three storylines for anyone else. Which is fine, because book three is no one's favourite Rand, Perrin or Egwene material.

[DoctorAtomic]

I like the books or I wouldn't be watching or commenting, but the showrunner is also saddled with, let's call it what it is, rather misogynist and repetitive content. With all the hand wringing, braid pulling, spanking, Rand/Mat/Perrin would know what to do, 'men!' nonsense. The series should have been nine books tops. 

[quarks]

16 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I like the books or I wouldn't be watching or commenting, but the showrunner is also saddled with, let's call it what it is, rather misogynist and repetitive content. With all the hand wringing, braid pulling, spanking, Rand/Mat/Perrin would know what to do, 'men!' nonsense. The series should have been nine books tops. 

Yeah. In a very, very real sense, the show is also saddled with decisions made by Tor Books/Macmillan back in the mid-90s and early 00s.

Decisions understandable at the time, but not necessarily things that the showrunner needs to focus on now, especially given that for purely pragmatic reasons, Amazon and Sony can't be, how to put this, as indulgent of certain things (not just LENGTH, but also LENGTH) as Tor Books/Macmillan could be.

[SueB]

Having finished EP5 (yikes!   It’s moving so freaking fast!) there is a lot to love (IMO) about the adaptation. 
 

Bits:

- The Windfinder’s channelling at sea is GORGEOUS!!
- I love how they’ve portrayed Suian.  Sophie Okenado is an Academy Award nominated actress - she’s an amazing talent.  And this fully explored Moraine/Siuan relationship is so much more than I expected from Siuan.  Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of Siuan/Gareth in the books.  But they are leveraging the talent of this actress and showing how difficult the White Tower is at the same time.  I’m a fan. 
- Lan and Moraine drinking Oosquai! Such a clever way of giving us the depth of that relationship in a sweet scene. 
- I am about as uncertain of Moraine’s future as Miraine is.  
- I like the use of Egwene’s Dream walking to tie the Edmond 5+ together.  I was not a fan of the ‘training’ - non-book readers must be confused.  
- Rand and Lanfear continue to sparkle.  Who knew?  Ultimately she’s evil and that betrayal is going to shatter Rand. Interestingly enough, I think she’s been both manipulative and transparent about her evilness.  
- They killed Natti!!!  Ouch.  That is going to weigh so heavily on Perrin   I was shocked they showed Bode channelling.
- Alana’s story was also good (you reactivated the bond 5 arrows ago - ha! Needed humor).  Who is going to heal her?
- I liked the Mistress of the Ship helping Nynaeve    I would love if she got her block broke sooner rather than later.
- Faile is definitely an improvement over the book IMO 
- Elayne dreaming of Aviendah!  I’m okay with it because it ties the importance of their relationship   
- May and Min team up still works for me. It looks like he has a bigger story next episode.  He needs his hat.  
- Elaida:  I hiss when she walks on screen   Nicely played.
- I see you Verin!   Clever woman.

 

In sum, I think Justin’s is getting the essence of the characters just right   And his re-spinning (pun intended!) is working for me   

 

 

 

[Danny Franks]

A couple of bits that kind of bother me - 

Alanna getting pin cushioned without another Aes Sedai to heal her. I worry that they're going to somehow have Bode Cauthon heal her, which just seems to be an egregious simplification of how using the One Power works.

Egwene being good enough to find all the dreams she wants to see, after what seems like a few nights of practice (at most).

Honestly, I like the messy, soap opera stuff with Lanfear. She's so vindictive, it makes me wonder whether she actually pulled Egwene into Rand's dream. If she did, that's amazing.

The Whitecloaks burning Natti Cauthon will probably outrage some book readers, despite Natti never having a single line of dialogue in the books. The Whitecloaks in the show are obviously far more ruthless and effective than in the books, and they have to be, to be seen as a real threat.

[DoctorAtomic]

There's just a ton of Book 5 to cram into the show, I don't know why they have to limit the episode run times. I mean, I like Stranger Things, but each 'episode' is like 4 days long. I thought the advantage of streaming was that you didn't have constraints like run time. 

The actor was a great choice, and I know it's in the books, but wow is Eliada just as much of an idiot as I remember. At least in the show, she's an actual person. I don't know about you all, but she was a cardboard cutout in the books for me. Also, I never felt her motivations were made clear enough for me. At least the show is showing she's kind of dumb too. 

Are they going for the plot of the Wise Ones with Egwene pretending to be Aes Sedai? It hasn't seemed like it. 

Hey, Sea Folk! I'm surprised Elayne didn't figure out they were channeling even being below the deck. Nice effects of the channeling on the ship though. 

Were Rand and Egwene still together in Book 5? I thought they broke it off in 3. It's not a big deal. They're going to have to eventually on the show. I think them breaking up was probably the only mature scene between a man and a woman in the entire series. 

I wish the show did more with the dice in Mat's head. Moiraine said on the show that the guys were all ta'veren. That's been about it though. Mat going with them to Tanchico is probably their best plan. 

Even in the last episode, everyone in the Two Rivers deciding to stay and fight was because of Perrin. It would be cool to see the color swirl or something. 

Min and Mat being the plucky platonic friendship is great for the show, but it pales with him and Silverbow. They better be bringing her on. 

There's no question the actor playing Lanfear is killing it. I cannot wait until Moiraine takes her out.

I hope the nonbookers realize how incredibly powerful Egwene is to be able to walk the Dream. Even though she is always hilariously confused at what she's wearing. 

9 hours ago, SueB said:

I am about as uncertain of Moraine’s future as Miraine is.

She has to take Lanfear out. The showrunner clearly knows the big beats to hit, and that's a big one. You think they're going to not do the Tower and take her off the board completely? Mat still needs to lose half the light of the world, so that would throw a wrench into it. Unless he gets the foxhead for the eye? "I don't 'live' if Rand does'. 'Live is operative. She's not necessarily 'Moiraine' after the Tower. 

9 hours ago, SueB said:

I would love if she got her block broke sooner rather than later.

I would too, but they might be setting it up that she goes ballistic on the Spider. The show needs to show that our current denizens are a match for the Forsaken at some point. 

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Egwene being good enough to find all the dreams she wants to see, after what seems like a few nights of practice (at most).

I'm with you, but like with Ny breaking the block, I think the show needs to establish sooner than later that these people are a serious match for the Forsaken. If only to show that it's not going to be all Rand. In that vein, I'm actually a little disappointed they didn't show Elayne at least helping out with the Windfinder. In a sense, it's a mutually assured destruction. Both sides need to be shown as having nuclear weapons. Because I think it's important to show that, 'well, you want the good guys and ladies to win, but, in the process, is everything just going to be destroyed?'

The show hasn't really conveyed what the Breaking was. Literally the entire earth was reshaped. They haven't even shown the Prologue yet. That's super important to what these people can actually do. And, for me, the book ending just wasn't nearly the breaking it should have been. 

 

[SueB]

Add me to the ‘that was fast’ crowd for Egwene’s dreams. And taking Moraine?  New feature. Plus just crashing into others dreams is kind of rude.  She certainly got an eyeful with Rand.  I agree Lanfear is manipulating things.  

Conversely the initial ‘don’t go without us’ caution from the Wise One’s and their super vague descriptions seemed like we were going to get very little info.  They also implied Egwene has already surpassed their skill.  I wish they didn’t do that.  
 

Finally, they refer to her as Egwene Sedai so she’s clearly posing as a full sister. Not sure what Aviendah thinks as she was with them in Tar Valon.   
 

Edited March 28 by SueB
Typo

[quarks]

1. This didn't happen in the books, but in the show, I'm kinda wondering if the reason Egwene could so easily slide into everyone's dreams after what seemed to be at most a few weeks of training was because Lanfear was "helping."

And I wondered if Lanfear also tweaked some of those dreams just a bit, given the unlikelihood that everyone in that group just happened to be having a happy dream just then - especially since that seems, well, unlikely. I do buy Elayne's happy dream - she's out on an adventure, not having to deal with her mother and do chores. And to a certain extent Nynaeve's - it's not surprising that she's still dreaming of her Arches daughter. But Mat was just told that Min had a vision of him hanging from a rope - a vision that matches some of his previous visions, and Perrin just found the burned body of the mother of his best friend. And, ok, sure, I can assume that some of this might be happening on different nights, but I still think Mat and Perrin shouldn't be dreaming happy dreams - yet.

Though it was interesting to see that Perrin, unlike the others, did seem to realize that he was dreaming, and that Egwene was really there....

2. Not thrilled to see the Sea Folk, if we're being honest. Started off as such a cool concept in the books and turned into arguably the second most annoying concept/group in the books.

3. Still kinda wondering what the show is doing with Min. It's great that she's now with more of the group, and the bit about how she's a terrible seer, servant and spy was hilarious - but if the show is still planning on doing the whole Rand, Min, Elayne and Aviendha thing, well, they aren't giving us that many hints in that direction. They did let Rand - and the audience - know that the Aiel are poly, and that Aviendha is definitely open to this sort of thing, and they've now given us several scenes of Aviendha and Rand. They've given us a couple of scenes with Elayne and Rand, and reminded us that Elayne and Aviendha are definitely a thing. Min? Not so much. She had a couple of scenes with Rand in the first season, and she saw Rand holding a baby, but most of her visions of Rand have involved Rand dying, not Rand being with her.

Throw in that Rand is definitely interested in Lanfear, and....again, just kinda wondering what the show is doing with Min. 

4. In the books, Aviendha did not know that Egwene was just an Accepted. In the show, I think Aviendha almost has to know. So if she does, kinda wondering how that dynamic will change once the Wise Ones figure out that Egwene has been lying. More than once. 

5. I....think I'm liking Faile in the show. Send help.

[DoctorAtomic]

13 hours ago, SueB said:

Finally, they refer to her as Egwene Sedai so she’s clearly posing as a full sister.

I only heard it once though. In the books, Egwene knew she was playing a ruse. I don't get that impression on the show. 

11 hours ago, quarks said:

I....think I'm liking Faile in the show. Send help.

She at least is a capable fighter on the show and not all bloviation all the time like the books. The showrunner strikes me as a savvy guy. He has to know Faile was considered generally annoying.

[SueB]

I agree this Faile is better.  PLEASE skip all the jealousy crap!

[Perfect Xero]

Given that the show has established Perrin as a wife killer, I assume that Faile won't be around for too long.

[DoctorAtomic]

No, she's too important to the re founding of Manetheren. Alanna specifically called it out last episode, and when they first got to the Two Rivers. 

Clearly, the showrunner is not portraying any of the women as damsels in distress, and they showed Faile being quite capable in combat. I'm cautiously optimistic with the others. 

[quarks]

On 4/1/2025 at 5:16 AM, Perfect Xero said:

Given that the show has established Perrin as a wife killer, I assume that Faile won't be around for too long.

Eh, that whole mess with Perrin's wife back in the first season was apparently Amazon's misguided attempt to make Perrin more relatable.  The showrunners argued against it.

And it turned out to be one of the most widely criticized parts of the first season - arguably the most widely criticized part up until the first season finale, which struggled with a number of things.

Rosamund Pike says that they do pay attention to fan reactions, so....my guess is that Faile survives for the rest of the show. I just hope that Perrin doesn't do his whole FAILE FAILE NOTHING MATTERS BUT FAILE bit later.

[DoctorAtomic]

Oooh, I wonder if they're reading us! Hi guys! Great job with the Horn! 

 

[Danny Franks]

I'll be honest, I kind of hoped they do the full thing with Alsera - that Rand actually used the power to pump her heart and stand her up and move her limbs, and it was a horrifying, reanimated corpse that he was trying to will life back into. 

I have to think the Faile backstory is misleading or dishonest in some way, because while Deira was a pain in the arse, she was not a Darkfriend. 

I get why they've had Rand be more into Lanfear in the show - the chemistry between them really works, and Natasha O'Keeffe is fantastic in the role - but he does come across as incredibly dumb and easily manipulated. 

I also really wish the attack on Cold Rocks Hold had included Trollocs, like in the books. They just add a different dimension and sense of danger that a few Darkfriends don't.

 

[Perfect Xero]

Egwene already brought a dead person back to life, so I'm not sure why Rand can't do the same.

[Danny Franks]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Egwene already brought a dead person back to life, so I'm not sure why Rand can't do the same.

She didn't. It's been explained that the scene with Nynaeve was supposed to show her being injured, but they didn't do a good enough job with the CGI covering the fact that Madeline had to hold a mannequin due to social distancing rules.

[DoctorAtomic]

I know we're not supposed to like the Whitecloaks, but they never really say how they thought the last battle was going to go. Sure, they think they're going to lead the light to victory over the shadow. They also aren't idiots. They know the Forsaken can channel and will. How do they think that plays out. They were always annoying me and just in the way all the time. They're not really doing much of a job on the show either simply because there's not really any material to work with. You can't *not* include them, but there's just not much you can do. 

I think maybe they should have worked on Bornhold more in the same way the show did Liandrin because he's just whining about his manpain, and I just don't care. 

Did the collar always have 3 parts?

Very quick resolution about Egwene lying about being Aes Sedai. I guess it wasn't super important to the showrunner. I suppose it really wasn't. I did think the beating was good character development so I hope that still is an endpoint. 

It's kind of weird that they're still on Rand/Egwene because this was over and done by book 5. I'm thinking maybe they should have wrapped it up sooner because things are going to get big real fast, and this just isn't as important. I liked in the books that they didn't have a ton of drama like they're doing in the show. 

This episode (6) seems to be the first time I saw that they were using different weaves and colors. I think this is the first time anyone said 'weave'. 

The 'healing' on the show is way too easy though. There's no way the kids could have done that, no matter how powerful they are. 

oooh, and they showed fireworks too. We're definitely getting Tear. 

Was this Shackled Man business in the books?

I wonder if Aviendha channeling spears leads to Rand getting the idea of his sword on the show. 

I don't remember the Spider Compelling Ny and Elayne. I think this is a good narrative choice if they're going to still set up Ny pwning her. Which they seem to be hinting at. 

You guys notice when Rand channels really hard, the taint sort of talks?

On 4/6/2025 at 6:39 PM, Danny Franks said:

I'll be honest, I kind of hoped they do the full thing with Alsera - that Rand actually used the power to pump her heart and stand her up and move her limbs, and it was a horrifying, reanimated corpse that he was trying to will life back into. 

It looked like she moved when he pumped the power into her a second time. I think they should have went that far. I mean, how do you show the nonbookers that this guy can literally rip time and space? Take 'madness' out of it. He's untrained and even with good intentions he can literally destroy the world. 

The show hasn't done any of the Prologue, so stay away from the whole madness angle. The viewers don't really have any context. I mean, bringing down a house on Sammy isn't really anything Egwene couldn't do. She beat him back with her shield just like she did with Ish. If anything, she's the one that's been shown to be able to go mano a mano with the Forsaken. 

If they're not going to have Asmodean to train Rand, which is fine, then the show has to show how truly massive and unchecked Rand's power is. They should have had him destroy the entire village and a lot more dead. You can still focus on the girl. If they're going to do the raining lighting, then this could have been good foreshadowing. 

On 4/6/2025 at 6:39 PM, Danny Franks said:

but he does come across as incredibly dumb and easily manipulated. 

He's a virgin who can't drive. 

Seriously though, we were to assume Rand and Egwene were sexually active? Even so, they have to be their firsts. He's in his 20s. Some older woman who has been around the block and can manipulate your dreams isn't going to have much difficulty. 

 

[SueB]

LOIAL!   Nooooooooooooooooooo

I could sit here and justify that his import drops down as the books go on.   But I don’t care.  It’s just a big NO for me. 
 

I won’t throw out the series for it. But it’s on thin ice.  
 

As it was done, it was done very nicely.   I just completely object to the choice.  
 

Otherwise, I liked the battle.  I am perfectly fine with Eoman Valda getting fried by the Shining Twins.  And I thought Perrin led well.  Alana has more lives than Deadpool.  I do like her and her Warder relationship. 
 

Bain and Chiad are awesome.  Loved their role this episode.  Loved the Women’s circle and the role of the Tinkerers.  I think they do a better job in the series showing the kinship with the Tinkers and Perrin
 

I miss Tam.  
 

Finally, I LOVED the singing of Weep for Manetheran. 

[Danny Franks]

Loial is a character that it's fine to have hang around doing very little in a book. But in a TV show, when you have to ask an actor to go through hours of makeup and prosthetics every time he's on set, at some point there has to be a question of whether it's worth it. Especially if he's only going to say three lines an episode.

If it was my decision, I'd have sent him back to a Stedding because the Longing was hitting him, but I can see why they wanted to raise the stakes by killing a character. It should have been Maksim, of course, to further unhinge Alanna.

[SueB]

I still would have preferred a stedding.  

[DoctorAtomic]

I feel like Perrin leading the Two Rivers happened way further on than it did on the show, so it threw me off. I get why the show is accelerating his rise. I don't have a problem with it. I don't remember any of this with Lolial being sent to destroy the waygate.

Is Faile being helpful? I'm continually shocked. 

I noticed Alanna talked about weaves again. I'm hoping they get more into the physics of channeling. I know it's hard to do on tv, but I think it would be helpful. 

I wonder if Bucceri was privy to how dreary Faile is. Clearly, the writing is better. Or maybe they told her not to read the books. 

They're ripping it up with Alanna shooting ice out of the sky. I better be knocked out of my entire living room if they're going to show Rand raining the lightning down. 

I think they did a good job with Aram to parallel the first time the Aiel killed. I never really cared for the plot. It doesn't bother me that he's in the show, but I'm not sure he was needed. 

I did like Perrin picking up hammer. Much better than the books. 

Was that how Valda died? I thought he was around for a long time? Have we even seen Niall yet?

Are they going to Gandalf Loial? You guys think he's actually dead? He was on a bridge. He destroyed the bridge and fell into an abyss. That was shot too deliberately. He's the one who convinces his people to fight in the last battle. 

I would agree that all that makeup for three lines is a lot. Sidelining him makes sense because there's not a lot for him to do for a while. But the showrunner has a solid handle on the material. Killing him off outright seems way off. 

The books had Lolial's writings surviving to the fourth age. My hot take from 20 whatever years ago - Loial actually is writing the prophecies of the Dragon. 

Are they doing something different with Bornhold too? I don't remember any of this. Are they flipping it to have Faile rescue Perrin? Bornhold actually looked apologetic to Perrin when he said he didn't know Fain. It was work to get through the Whitecloak chapters, so if they're trying something different here, I'm all for it. 

Edited April 13 by DoctorAtomic

[Danny Franks]

5 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I feel like Perrin leading the Two Rivers happened way further on than it did on the show, so it threw me off. I get why the show is accelerating his rise. I don't have a problem with it. I don't remember any of this with Lolial being sent to destroy the waygate.

Loial snuck off with Gaul to destroy the Waygate, but all it took in the books was removing the leaves from both the inside and outside. Bain and Chiad stayed in the village and fought alongside the rest of them.

5 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I wonder if Bucceri was privy to how dreary Faile is. Clearly, the writing is better. Or maybe they told her not to read the books. 

I think Isabella Bucceri has an interesting task on her hands, in making one of the most irritating characters in the books more likeable on screen. But it's also a task that comes without too many expectations to live up to.

I don't think it was even Faile that was the problem, but the way her relationship with Perrin was written - constant jealousy and completely weird cultural tics, like Saldaeans thinking that relationships should be based on abusive behaviour - shouting and arguing and spanking, mostly. It was very strange to read.

If the show cuts all that out, they'll be golden, because Bucceri is fantastic so far.

5 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 I think they did a good job with Aram to parallel the first time the Aiel killed. I never really cared for the plot. It doesn't bother me that he's in the show, but I'm not sure he was needed. 

I like the parallel with Lewin, but I think I liked it more in the books, when Aram made a considered, deliberate choice  - he saw his people killed, he felt impotent and full of anger, and decided he wanted to abandon the Way of the Leaf.

5 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Was that how Valda died? I thought he was around for a long time? Have we even seen Niall yet?

In the books, Valda is killed in a duel with Galad. Because Galad learns that Valda raped Morgase. So... I'm glad this is the way it went down in the show. I don't need rape as a plot device.

5 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Are they doing something different with Bornhold too? I don't remember any of this. Are they flipping it to have Faile rescue Perrin? Bornhold actually looked apologetic to Perrin when he said he didn't know Fain. It was work to get through the Whitecloak chapters, so if they're trying something different here, I'm all for it. 

Dain does get an eventual redemption in the books, when Perrin is tried and Morgase gives him clemency, then Galad makes peace with him. Perrin is able to explain about the unnamed Whitecloaks from TEOTW, but also that it was the Seanchan who killed Geofram Bornhald. Byar tries to stab Perrin from behind and Dain kills him to show he's no longer listening to all of the anti-Perrin poison that Byar had been telling him since book four.

But in the show it's different, because Dain saw Perrin kill his father. There's no reasonable expectation that he could ever be expected to be impartial or fair-minded, or that he would give clemency.

[MissLucas]

11 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I wonder if Bucceri was privy to how dreary Faile is. Clearly, the writing is better. Or maybe they told her not to read the books. 

I saw an interview with her and she said that she did a deep dive  and realized that the character was polarizing which she found exciting. But then she refrained from looking too hard because she wanted to keep her take on Faile. I took that to mean that she did some googling but then decided to let her instinct and the script guide her. And it seems to me that the writing so far has been very good for Faile. I did not dislike the character when reading the books but found her occasionally exasperating - like many other female characters but that's another story.

[DoctorAtomic]

7 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

If the show cuts all that out, they'll be golden, because Bucceri is fantastic so far.

They're giving her far more agency on the show with her mad stabbing skillz. We know Faile knows what leadership is, and really impressing that on Perrin in a way we didn't see in the books. Also, 'get behind me and kill the ones that get through' was several degrees of awesome. 

 

[Megras]

It seems the writers have forgotten that Aes Sedai take binding oaths one of which being "Never to use the One Power as a weapon, except in the last extreme defense of her own life, or the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai."

As much as I appreciate changes have to be made when adapting media, if the wanted to execute Siuan, they should have used a "normal" weapon or had a warder do it. How could executing a prisoner be in the last extreme defense of anything.

If they needed Siuan to be executed have a Warder do it. Using the One Power like that means that the Keeper has broken her Oaths and doesn't care who in that room knows. I can kind of forgive the fight before hand, but once Siuan was stilled...

I started this as a general complaint about the use of the One Power as a weapon but on further reflection most of the times I can recall it being used are not by full Aes Sedai or by Black Ajah. However as I have typed this all up I am going to leave it anyway.

On the whole I am enjoying the series its just every now and then a thing jumps at me and makes me go Huh?! and you know who doesn't like complaining on the internet :)

 

 

[NeenerNeener]

3 hours ago, Megras said:

if the wanted to execute Siuan,

I have a problem with that being a major departure from the books. The character  played a reasonably important role in the books even after she was stilled, so they threw all that away. The only thing they accomplished this way was not having to do special effects to de-age the character for the show, since stilling supposedly made them look about 20 years old.

[SueB]

I love Siuan in the books.  But I can’t argue about the manner of her death.  That was an epic speech of defiance.   And Sophie Okenedo pulled it off magnificently.  
 

I am so grateful Nynaeve lost her block.  
 

I’m glad Mat went thru the arch but there’s no Daughter of the Nine Moons or (potentially the Ashendari).  I want those elements.  
 

Sameul’s death was gruesome. 
 

Interesting moment: It wasn’t until Alviarin stood that Siuan was elected.   So I’m thinking those who stood after were Black Ajah.  Which makes Siuan’s rise to power a manipulation by the Shadow - possibly to cause harm.   Even tho Siuan was a person of the light. 
 

So Moraine didn’t die.   Sow that mean Rand will fail?   Or her vision was wrong. 
 

Rand and Egwene taking on Lanfear at episode start was a good team up.  I felt healing there.  

Bottom line: They are REALLY modifying the plot.  But if this is ‘the end’, it was hopeful based on Siuan’s speech, Nynaeve losing her block, and Rand bringing the rain.  
 

Still, I hope we get more seasons.  

[Danny Franks]

So are we meant to think that the rumour of Siuan being a Darkfriend is the pretext for Alviarin being able to execute her with the One Power? I guess this is where the subjective nature of the Three Oaths comes in.

I don't mind her being killed, because I think it fits the version of the story the show is telling, and I do think RJ was too reluctant to kill prominent characters. This will have more of an impact than her surviving and becoming a mentor to Egwene (in between doing Gareth Bryne's laundry, of course).

I was genuinely disappointed with the scene at Alcair Dal. The show didn't make it at all clear that Rand revealed the truth of the Aiel to prove to the chiefs he was the Car'a'carn. He didn't do it because he thought the Aiel had to know, or to prove himself to them, it was to demonstrate that Couladin was a liar because he didn't know that truth.

It's really frustrating that they muddled that scene so much.

[Megras]

Even if she was a darkfriend the oaths shouldn't let them use the One Power on her when she was captured and stilled. No one in that room had the excuse of "in the last extreme defense of her own life, or the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai."

Maybe if she had been killed while fighting but once she was subdued.

 

Its odd how the smallest things can annoy one person but others are fine with it.

 

[quarks]

Siuan does have a role in later books, primarily as Egwene's mentor. But that role can be taken over by others in the show - Leane, Verin, possibly even Alanna or Tsutama.  Tsutama would even be a nice nod to the way Egwene reaches out to the Red Ajah in the books. Seaine might have been one of the non-speaking White Sitters in the flashback scene, so that's another possible mentor.  

Killing her off now also allows the show to avoid Siuan's other role in later books - the once great world leader now greatly weakened and doing laundry for a male general before falling in love with said general. It's....well, I don't think it's the worst romance in the books, but that's an incredibly low bar. It left a not great taste in my mouth, and her anticlimactic death didn't help. I think the show gave her a better ending.

But speaking of Siuan, I kinda want to go back to my mini-obsession: what the show is or isn't doing with Min.

Up until book 6, Min basically a) carries some messages around in books 2, 4 and 6; b) post-coup, frees Siuan and Leane, with the help of Gawyn and the cook, and c) gets caught up in the plotlines of other characters and sometimes sorta gets involved with them (see, traveling to Falme with everyone and making regular visits to cheer up Egwene post-damane capture, which didn't happen on the show) though never doing anything that changes the plot.

Unless season four starts with Min heading back to the White Tower and freeing Liane, the show has pretty much eliminated most of this.

From the end of book 6 until about midway through book 14, Min's plotline is entirely tied up with Rand's, to the point where midway through book 14, her internal monologue notes that she's not doing anything. (Even though, for once, she IS - she's going through accounts and organizing paperwork.) She only gets a sorta standalone plot later, when she ends up as the main advisor to Tuon. At the very end, she's right back to being part of Rand's plot, almost always acted on, instead of acting. 

There's also some weirdness where Min meets Birgitte again in books five and six, but doesn't recognize Birgitte until book 10, when she's all like, "I KNOW YOU I SAW YOU AT FALME" and like, ok, sure, but why didn't this happen in book five or six?

But mostly, Min functions as Rand's third love interest - something that so far, is almost entirely absent from the show, in striking contrast to the books, where this first comes up in book two and then gets mentioned in literally every single later book. 

Not here.

Rand has had a couple of scenes with Elayne and has been hanging out with Aviendha all season, and of course Elayne and Aviendha hooked up, so the setup for those three is there.

Min and Rand? Well. They interacted twice in season one - once with the overall group, once alone, and....that's been it. I had assumed that she and Elayne would have some scenes together in Tanchico, to set up the deep friendship they develop in the books, and...no.  She's yet to interact with Aviendha at all (which, ok, is close to the books).

I don't think the show is dropping this, but I did find it odd that Min didn't at least interact more with Elayne.

Especially since, as noted, going forward, Min has no other plot that isn't tightly tied to Rand until the last couple of episodes of the show.

Hmm.

[DoctorAtomic]

Well, I have many things to say. 

Did Elaida go through the doorway in the books? I actually like this better, knowing the price she's going to pay for the Seat. 

I don't remember Moiraine shielding Sammael either. I guess they're merging him with Asmodean? I GUESS NOT! YIKES!

Isn't Sammael supposed to be King of Illian? Or are they going to skip all the politics? I'm not going to be too mad because it did get tedious, but Rand being able to unite the continent is important. 

iirc, the Dragon was supposed to be crowned King of Illian before the Last Battle, so I figure you get to that same endpoint, then it doesn't matter. 

And our first mention of balefire! "Could you please stop playing with the nuclear weapon?" That was some weak looking balefire if that what it was supposed to be. Although the actual balefire effect was cool. They got across that it burns your thread. Also looks like Rand won't balefire Rahvin if Elayne is taking over the plot and has the stick. I still want to see balefire woven.

They still haven't mentioned Lews Therin's wife yet or the Prologue. I'm wondering if they're just going to bypass it. 

I didn't think we were getting Mat all Odin-ed up already! I thought being hanged plugged the holes in Mat's mind so he had *all* the memories, no? They're replacing Rand with Min too. Mat needs to have those memories. 

I'm saying a lot of "I guess they're not going to ______" tonight! No doorway either for Moiraine! Please tell me they're having Moiraine sheathe the sword to bookend Lan. I am surprised they didn't take her off the board though. Maybe they will be going for the doorway.  

tbh, I don't think it would have been earned if Moiraine killed a Forsaken already. She barely held on to a stalemate, and that is a fair comparison. Right now, only Ny really has the raw strength.

They actually killed Siuan for real?! I'm kind of relieved because I didn't want to see all the spankings. 

They had to have Rand reveal the truth of the Aiel though. That's too huge.

Wow there's a ton of reshuffling from the books. I feel like I have holes in my memories. 

On 4/17/2025 at 6:21 AM, Megras said:

As much as I appreciate changes have to be made when adapting media, if the wanted to execute Siuan, they should have used a "normal" weapon or had a warder do it. How could executing a prisoner be in the last extreme defense of anything.

Alviran is Messeana, no? Or at least a Darkfriend. I take your point, but technically the oaths weren't broken. We know Eliada isn't a darkfriend, but you could see her rationalizing her way out of it. I mean, everything from now with the Tower is down hill because of her. Once you take the dark oaths, you can do whatever you want with the power. 

 

Oh, they did a quick shot of the medallion. Mat a least has that. He'd better find that spear though. 

[quarks]

I don't think Mesaana is in the show. 

Until/unless Liandrin gets her wish, the show only has eight Forsaken. We know who seven of them are:

1. Ishamael (at least temporarily dead)

2. Lanfear

3. Moggy

4. Rahvin

5. Sammael (I think dead dead dead)

6. Semirhage (name dropped)

7. Graendal (name dropped)

That leaves just one more, and I am assuming the eighth one is a man - presumably either Asmodeon or Demandred - to ensure equal numbers of four men, four women.

I suppose the show could surprise us (well, me) by having Mesaana as the eighth, but honestly, the White Tower is doing a decent enough job destroying itself from within (presumably thanks to Ishamael recruiting the Black Ajah through dreams) that I don't think she's needed in the show. Pity, because ARE YOU KIDDING ME YOU'RE DENYING ME MY GRANT MONEY AND MAKING ME TEACH is one of my favorite Forsaken motivations.

She's not Alviarin; while in the Tower, she masquerades as a minor Brown Ajah member, Danelle.

Alviarin is Black Ajah in the books, though, and not just Black Ajah, but one of the single most competent villains in the books. It seems the show is keeping that character trait.

[DoctorAtomic]

9 minutes ago, quarks said:

Alviarin is Black Ajah in the books, though, and not just Black Ajah, but one of the single most competent villains in the books. It seems the show is keeping that character trait.

If she was  Mesaana, fine. That's good enough too though. Our main point that she's calculating enough to convince Eliada that killing Suiane is justified. Rotting the Tower from within, as we know happens. Alviarin isn't bound by the Three Oaths, so she can kill whenever. But the Three Oaths physically prevents an Aes Sedai from all that, so she had to trick Elaida into thinking it worked. Probably nuance lost on nonbookers. 

The 8th has to be Demandred if only for Lan at the end. If this showrunner really has a spine. Demandred = Taim. When that didn't happen, Taim was just so watered down to me. 

And it makes sense that the 8th would be him because he was always off doing his own thing all the time. The Forsaken were always gossiping what he was up to. I couldn't stand how 'Bao' just showed up at the end. It was so shoehorned in and clumsy. 

Blink if you miss it, when Thom makes the crack how Elayne took apart all the clocks in the palace; great little seed planted for Elyane's talent for making ter'angreal. 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Is the balefire stick Elayne used supposed to be the same one Demandred had?

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Pity, because ARE YOU KIDDING ME YOU'RE DENYING ME MY GRANT MONEY AND MAKING ME TEACH is one of my favorite Forsaken motivations.

Quote

Her road to the Great Lord began when she was denied a place in the Collam Daan all those years ago. Unsuited for research, they had told her, but she could still teach. Well, she had taught, until she found how to teach them all!

 

[iarwain]

Is Moiraine lesbian in the books?

[Danny Franks]

5 hours ago, quarks said:

Killing her off now also allows the show to avoid Siuan's other role in later books - the once great world leader now greatly weakened and doing laundry for a male general before falling in love with said general. It's....well, I don't think it's the worst romance in the books, but that's an incredibly low bar. It left a not great taste in my mouth, and her anticlimactic death didn't help. I think the show gave her a better ending.

Yeah, I absolutely will not miss that storyline. I've no idea what RJ was trying to achieve with it but it just didn't work for me. It read like he felt an obligation to pair up as many characters as possible.

Same with Moiraine and Thom, which surely won't happen in the show. It's all completely off the page, with a couple of very mild suggestions that they admire one another. Then, after the Tower of Ghenjei they're just in love. It's weird.

5 hours ago, quarks said:

But mostly, Min functions as Rand's third love interest - something that so far, is almost entirely absent from the show, in striking contrast to the books, where this first comes up in book two and then gets mentioned in literally every single later book. 

Not here.

Rand has had a couple of scenes with Elayne and has been hanging out with Aviendha all season, and of course Elayne and Aviendha hooked up, so the setup for those three is there.

Min and Rand? Well. They interacted twice in season one - once with the overall group, once alone, and....that's been it. I had assumed that she and Elayne would have some scenes together in Tanchico, to set up the deep friendship they develop in the books, and...no.  She's yet to interact with Aviendha at all (which, ok, is close to the books).

I don't think the show is dropping this, but I did find it odd that Min didn't at least interact more with Elayne.

Especially since, as noted, going forward, Min has no other plot that isn't tightly tied to Rand until the last couple of episodes of the show.

Hmm.

As I get older, I like Min less and less. Because, as you say, she exists to be Rand's love interest and to dispense viewings. Those viewings become less and less important as the series goes on, and she takes on the role of Rand's emotional support pillow. She has no life outside of him, and freely admits that to herself.

A lot of the fandom loves her because she gives off the image of "not like other girls," with her tomboy hair and trousers but turns into a tradwife who gives up any ambitions of her own to support her man (and in the process, grows her hair and changes her clothes to tighter trousers with flowers embroidered on them. Because she thinks that's what Rand will like.)

I can safely say we're not going to get that Min in the show, because it would be frankly unbelievable for her to become that after how she's been written so far.

I've said before that if it was up to me, I would not write Min to be Rand's romantic interest in the show, but keep her as Mat's buddy and maybe let her take on Juilin's role as the third spoke of the wheel with him and Thom.

I thought we'd see Min interact with Elayne in some fashion, and maybe have a viewing of her romantic future, but they've not even looked at each other twice. And I know that the show is so packed it's hard to fit those scenes in, but they definitely could have done it during their night out in Tanchico.

Then again, I also hoped we'd see a few more scenes between Rand and Aviendha, to suggest that there is something going on. I did like Aviendha telling Egwene that "yours is a future you can choose," when talking about whether she should be with Rand. I felt like there was a hint there that Aviendha does not like the future she now knows is in store for her.

[Megras]

9 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Alviran is Messeana, no? Or at least a Darkfriend. I take your point, but technically the oaths weren't broken. We know Eliada isn't a darkfriend, but you could see her rationalizing her way out of it. I mean, everything from now with the Tower is down hill because of her. Once you take the dark oaths, you can do whatever you want with the power.

 

Half of my point was unless everyone in that room was a darkfriend Alviran just outed herself as one. No?

[quarks]

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Is the balefire stick Elayne used supposed to be the same one Demandred had?

No. Demandred had Sakarnen, the item Moiraine was using in this episode in her fight against Lanfear. 

This appears to be another change made for budget reasons - they've dropped the entire idea of the Choeden Kal (the two huge statues that Rand and Nynaeve later use to remove the taint from the One Power) and are instead using Callandor (for men) and Sakarnen (now for women!), presumably on the basis that these are smallish items that can be held by a single person AND don't require additional CGI to show them activating huge statues and THEN using the power. At least, that's my guess.

8 hours ago, iarwain said:

Is Moiraine lesbian in the books?

She's bisexual. In the books, she and Siuan have a mostly offscreen romantic/sexual relationship that pretty much ends once Moiraine leaves the Tower to go hunt for the Dragon Reborn. Moiraine's happy romantic endgame in the books is with a guy. 

As far as I can tell, the show is completely on the Moiraine/Siuan SOULMATES FOREVER train, and will not be showing this second relationship/romance. 

For the record, I was ok with that second romance in the books - but I'm equally ok with dropping it. It wasn't particularly important to the plot for either character.

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I thought we'd see Min interact with Elayne in some fashion, and maybe have a viewing of her romantic future, but they've not even looked at each other twice. And I know that the show is so packed it's hard to fit those scenes in, but they definitely could have done it during their night out in Tanchico.

Yeah. I honestly was expecting something - especially since most of Min's visions were/are pretty brief. And yet, nothing. We had a brief - a very brief - moment where Min looked up on the stage where Elayne was singing, and laughed and seemed to be having fun. We also had a brief - a VERY brief moment in the finale when the group entered the Tanchico Palace and Elayne and Min were framed together. But that's it - and although yes, this episode was packed, it might not have been a bad idea to shorten that scene between Sammael and Moiraine by about twenty seconds just to give something between Elayne and Min this episode. And yet, nothing.

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Then again, I also hoped we'd see a few more scenes between Rand and Aviendha, to suggest that there is something going on. I did like Aviendha telling Egwene that "yours is a future you can choose," when talking about whether she should be with Rand. I felt like there was a hint there that Aviendha does not like the future she now knows is in store for her.

I do think we've had some of this, though - not in this episode, admittedly, but Rand and Aviendha did at least appear to be attracted to each other in the first episode; exchanged some significant looks in Rhuidean; and had a few scenes together in the sixth episode, including the bit where Aviendha watched Rand interacting with the girl - and smiled, apparently getting fonder of Rand. And of course that whole "yours is a future you can choose" strongly suggests that Aviendha is upset that she can't choose.

And I'm guessing that in many of those futures, Aviendha either did not see Egwene - or saw that Egwene continuing to try to hold on to Rand would go poorly for everyone involved.

In any case, though, these Rand/Aviendha moments happened after Aviendha entered an explicitly romantic/sexual relationship with Elayne and while Rand was still kinda/sorta/maybe with Egwene and also sleeping with Lanfear, so I can understand why that wasn't developed. And Aviendha clearly was/is less than enthusiastic by the "HE SLEPT WITH LANFEAR? WHAT?" so she's going to need some time to process that, too.

All this said - I was also expecting a bit more between Rand and Aviendha THIS episode, especially since this episode also included Rand breaking up with Lanfear and - at least to me - seemed to clarify that Rand and Egwene are very, very definitely over, at least, right up until that conversation with Egwene and Aveindha, where Aviendha, at least, seemed to think that Egwene and Rand weren't completely over, a scene followed by having Aviendha kneel in front of Rand and having Egwene reach out to Rand with, "Stop."

As I said on the episode thread, I get that having Egwene say this helps set up the future Rand/Egwene confrontations. I also get that Aviendha kneeling sets her up as a direct contrast to Lanfear, who claimed that she was the only person who never bowed to Lews Therin. I also liked the way Aviendha reacted to the whole HI WAY OF THE LEAF FOLKS by turning on the Wise Ones with "You knew about this?"

But something about that end with Aviendha felt off. The kneeling, certainly, but also the way she apparently didn't expect this, even though the scenes right before this showed that she must have seen something like this in at least one or more visions. Also the way that she didn't try to reach out to Rand, even though, as said, we've seen indications on the show that she is attracted to him and is starting to really like him, and apparently knows that she's destined to marry him.

I don't know what, precisely, the show could have done here. But I feel that they could have done something. Or at least something else.

[DoctorAtomic]

9 hours ago, iarwain said:

Is Moiraine lesbian in the books?

This flew way over my head when I read the books, but there's passing mentions of 'pillow friends', which I guess meant the girls fooled around when they were novices, and then that was it. 

There wasn't any out and out bi or queer representation in the books iirc. Really though, the relationships between men and women were terribly characterized. Just the relationships between the Aes and Warders on the show is much more richer and well developed. I think Bain said that they play Maiden's Kiss with girls too, so even just adult sex is more, uh, adult on the show. 

That's one of the things of many towards the end of the books that really bothered me at how tepid the end of the age was. All we heard was how great the Age of Legends was because men and women worked together. So then you get the Black Tower, and what? No men and women working together. The Aes bonded some of the guys *without consent* and that all blew up in their faces. Taim forced some of them basically subjugate to the men. 

I was really hoping Rand and Egwene at the end would come back together with Mat and Ny like 'Let's show the Shadow what the Two Rivers can do'. Which they kind of did, but separately. 

7 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Yeah, I absolutely will not miss that storyline. I've no idea what RJ was trying to achieve with it but it just didn't work for me. It read like he felt an obligation to pair up as many characters as possible.

That whole point on was really just a jumble and not tightly plotted at all. 

4 hours ago, Megras said:

Half of my point was unless everyone in that room was a darkfriend Alviran just outed herself as one. No?

I don't think so. There's two things going on here. Alviran deftly manipulated Elaida into thinking Siuan was really a Darkfriend so that as the new Seat, she could issue the execution. However, not really being a Darkfriend, if Elaida tried to execute Siuan herself, the Oaths may have physically prevented her. We know they can do that. Which would have called her rule as Seat into question. Alviran instead is like, 'I will carry out your order as your Keeper to show my support for you' and then *can* do it because she's free of the Oaths. So then everyone else sees her do it and is like, 'Oh I guess she was a Darkfriend because Alviran wouldn't have been able to kill her Elaida was right'. So that further cements her rule at the new Seat.

4 minutes ago, quarks said:

No. Demandred had Sakarnen, the item Moiraine was using in this episode in her fight against Lanfear. 

The Sakarnen had two parts - a staff and cup. 

6 minutes ago, quarks said:

As I said on the episode thread, I get that having Egwene say this helps set up the future Rand/Egwene confrontations.

I never liked these because they were so childish. These two grew up together. I really wanted a more 'wow look at us, this is too much, how are we going to actually save the world?' and then have a bitch fest about how hard it is to get anyone to do even the slightest task. 

And really, Rand having a very adult conversation with a very surprised Moiraine was excellent writing and character development. All Rand needs to do is just apologize to Egwene. 'Where do we go from here?' 'You're the Dragon now and I have to understand who I'm supposed to be with all this power'. 'I'll always love you'. 'I love you too, but the world just got really big and we're going to have to figure out what we're supposed to do'. 'Let's figure it out together'. Easy and nice. 

Egwene asking Rand to stop at the end was a poor narrative choice. She had to have grasped that Rand needed to show ALL AIEL that he was the One Who Comes With The Dawn. Not show them he was Rand. That requires a big show. That's why Rand was quoting their prophecies. 

Egwene didn't seem to grasp how powerful she's becoming with the dreamwalking talent either. Sure, she should be worried Rand is going to go bonkers from the taint, but at this point, I would have preferred something from her like really getting what the 'Dragon Reborn' is and coming to terms with the world fundamentally changed. 

 

[Megras]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't think so. There's two things going on here. Alviran deftly manipulated Elaida into thinking Siuan was really a Darkfriend so that as the new Seat, she could issue the execution. However, not really being a Darkfriend, if Elaida tried to execute Siuan herself, the Oaths may have physically prevented her. We know they can do that. Which would have called her rule as Seat into question. Alviran instead is like, 'I will carry out your order as your Keeper to show my support for you' and then *can* do it because she's free of the Oaths. So then everyone else sees her do it and is like, 'Oh I guess she was a Darkfriend because Alviran wouldn't have been able to kill her Elaida was right'. So that further cements her rule at the new Seat.

 

It looks like my google-fu & memory was failing me on the exact wording of the Oaths. Some definitions online omit the darkfriend exception from the weapon use clause. Given that I withdraw my objections.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Egwene asking Rand to stop at the end was a poor narrative choice.

I think she's still freaked out by what she saw in her trial visions. She also had the strongest reaction to him channeling to bring back Alsera. In her mind every time he channels he gets a step closer to the Rand she saw in her vision who had killed Mat and Perrin (and countless others I guess). She's still struggling with that image - some therapy would help. I don't see her asking him to stop so much as foreshadowing confrontation or outright defiance but more as denial - maybe a bit of both.