S02.E05: I'll Stand By You

[jewel21]

The discovery of some complications with Max's pod forces Liz, Michael and Isobel to confront the possibility that they may not be able to save him. Elsewhere, Maria and Alex make amends.

Airdate: 04/13/2020

[bettername2come]

I enjoyed the Maria and Alex scenes. They were adorable together. And when she showed up and held Liz's hand at the end. Are they going to remember she's friends with them now? Who knows!

Liked the ending scene with Max and Isabel. 

[Lady Calypso]

Well, honestly, for an entire episode to save Max, it was actually one of the better episodes I've seen. They had a nice balance between the Max stuff and everyone else. 

Honestly, though, I thought this was actually a pretty good episode. The Maria/Alex stuff was not horrible...but mostly because they allowed Tyler Blackburn to actually smile, and at least Maria got to do something, even though she definitely forgave Liz quite quickly. At least I can kind of see Alex's point...but boy's been whipped with Michael for years, even when he's treated Alex like shit. Goodness knows why Alex continues to be a doormat to someone like that, and I say this as someone who did enjoy Michael's role this time around. Plus...ok, Tyler and Michael Vlamis finally showed me SOME semblance of chemistry in their flashback scene. It wasn't enough for me to ship them, but it was better than absolutely nothing that they've been giving me thus far. 

Isobel talks to Max, who (not surprisingly) tries to give a martyr speech. Although, I'm willing to bet that Max is right on the money with letting him die. I bet we'll see instances of his darkness for a while until the pacemaker decides to stop working. 

Speaking of, Michael gets to FINALLY use his intelligence that I totally forgot that he had! It's good to see him being put to good use that's not just bitching about something. 

And who else gets to save the day? Rosa, with her helping to jump start Max's heart. I'm guessing that Rosa/Max are forever connected and I'm willing to bet that she takes in some of that darkness for reasons. 

I guess I forgot how much Liz was actually into Max from last season because I can only remember the time when Max decided to frame her sister for murder because she was already dead and didn't bother to tell Liz for ten years. Again, surprised that that didn't totally tarnish their relationship. But hopefully, with Max back, Liz does NOT go back to being All About Max and she can continue to interact with characters like Michael and Maria.

The flashbacks for Michael were decent. They felt a little out of place, but also kind of needed. Plus, I continue to forever LOL at Nathan Dean's CGI teenage face. I don't know whether because it's bad or because he looks like a baby. 

Both Michael and Isobel got some nice scenes in this episode. 

Overall, really, one of the best episodes of the series. I'm not saying it was spectacular in general, but it was good in terms of this show, which has a different bar set than other shows.

[UNOSEZ]

Ppl interacted... Max was in full hero martyr mode... Max was ignored... Maria got to be mad for 3.8 seconds... Kyle is still a doormat for Liz.. Who for all her prostration will undoubtly put him on  the back burner now that max is back... All of the de-aged faces were creepy... Overall meh

[anamika]

For an episode that was about Max coming back, I thought this was the most boring of this season. Max coming back is a given so all the hand wringing that Liz, Isobel and Michael did felt pointless.  When they were using the defibrillator, I was like just get on with it.

Several weeks have passed once again. Did Liz call Jenna Cameron back?

Can't they just use younger actors for these flashback scenes? Alex looks like he is 40 and Max's plasticine face is scary.

Michael's scenes with Isobel and Max were pretty much the only enjoyable scenes this episode.

So Max is evil now?

[RachelKM]

I enjoyed this episode.  But I had a hard time with the visual effects to make everyone look younger.  They aren't that old.  

I really like Isobel and Rosa (not so much Isobel knocking her out, though).

I also really like scenes of the the three aliens together and in groups of two. The actors work well together

In general, I enjoyed the emphasis on family and friendship relationships.

Alex even smiled while with Maria. And Maria was on screen!! Their scenes reminded me that Tyler Blackburn is really good with non-romantic chemistry. 

I giggled for a minute at the beginning of the transplant scenes. Something about the pacing and the music felt way too Grey's Anatomy. 

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Rosa, with her helping to jump start Max's heart. I'm guessing that Rosa/Max are forever connected and I'm willing to bet that she takes in some of that darkness for reasons. 

I think this is a solid spec.

[steelyis]

Alex and Maria are super cute together! I loved the expression on his face when Maria sat on his lap. It was weird seeing him smile so much--nice, but weird.

So, it was de-aging CGI that made Max's skin look so unnaturally smooth?

I'm not down with Liz being let off the hook so easily. While Alex made a semi-good point about people having the right to keep their secrets, Maria had the right to know her whole body was being used to get at the squad. That's when Liz, as a friend, should've known keeping it secret from Maria was unequivocally wrong.

[Bloga]

  I actually liked this episode very much. It felt somewhat better than the standard they have us used to...as in better than CW cheesy quality. 

    The operation felt very Grey´s Anatomy lol. It was the music. 

    I speculated about this dark energy accummulating for 10 years having an effect on Max. We knew when he saved Liz he was a raging ticking bomb for what seemed like days or even more...it wasn´t until he provoked a city wide blackout that he felt better. 10 years of death have to have a much bigger effect, I really liked Isobel on this episode...all that training had a purpose, a purpose she didn´t even know until now.

        The pacemaker thing is kind of genius. It felt a bit rushed...I wished they had shown Michael working on it for a few episodes, but then urgency is lost, and they need that element.

        So Rosa is an alien heart starter now...insteresting. I mean, the handprint has stayed on for months, she´s been walking around short circuiting appliances...so again, that also has come in handy...it´s quite possible that alien element comes into play again.

[Bloga]

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well, honestly, for an entire episode to save Max, it was actually one of the better episodes I've seen. They had a nice balance between the Max stuff and everyone else. 

Honestly, though, I thought this was actually a pretty good episode. The Maria/Alex stuff was not horrible...but mostly because they allowed Tyler Blackburn to actually smile, and at least Maria got to do something, even though she definitely forgave Liz quite quickly. At least I can kind of see Alex's point...but boy's been whipped with Michael for years, even when he's treated Alex like shit. Goodness knows why Alex continues to be a doormat to someone like that, and I say this as someone who did enjoy Michael's role this time around. Plus...ok, Tyler and Michael Vlamis finally showed me SOME semblance of chemistry in their flashback scene. It wasn't enough for me to ship them, but it was better than absolutely nothing that they've been giving me thus far. 

Isobel talks to Max, who (not surprisingly) tries to give a martyr speech. Although, I'm willing to bet that Max is right on the money with letting him die. I bet we'll see instances of his darkness for a while until the pacemaker decides to stop working. 

Speaking of, Michael gets to FINALLY use his intelligence that I totally forgot that he had! It's good to see him being put to good use that's not just bitching about something. 

And who else gets to save the day? Rosa, with her helping to jump start Max's heart. I'm guessing that Rosa/Max are forever connected and I'm willing to bet that she takes in some of that darkness for reasons. 

I guess I forgot how much Liz was actually into Max from last season because I can only remember the time when Max decided to frame her sister for murder because she was already dead and didn't bother to tell Liz for ten years. Again, surprised that that didn't totally tarnish their relationship. But hopefully, with Max back, Liz does NOT go back to being All About Max and she can continue to interact with characters like Michael and Maria.

The flashbacks for Michael were decent. They felt a little out of place, but also kind of needed. Plus, I continue to forever LOL at Nathan Dean's CGI teenage face. I don't know whether because it's bad or because he looks like a baby. 

Both Michael and Isobel got some nice scenes in this episode. 

Overall, really, one of the best episodes of the series. I'm not saying it was spectacular in general, but it was good in terms of this show, which has a different bar set than other shows.

       I liked the flashbacks as well, getting to see Michael pretty much ruin his life during that summer was necessary in a way, I felt like we needed to see a progression. I assumed Michael and Alex broke up when Alex´s dad attacked Michael and broke his hand, but they actually stayed together a bit longer. 

[Cristofle]

I mostly enjoyed this episode, because I always am invested in the relationships between the "Pod Squad", AKA Max, Michael, and Isobel. And I feel like the show has not done enough to explore Max and Michael's relationship, so it was nice to see some of that turn around in this episode. It was interesting that little Max appeared more capable of feeling Michael than little Isobel. 

That said, I agree that a lot of the drama in the heart surgery felt unnecessary, because it was Max and obviously he was going to come back. This felt a lot like Game of Thrones when there was so much drama over whether Jon would be able to come back - of course he will, so let's get on with that. That's the thing about "killing the hero" - a lot of the bringing them back feels like a waste of time. 

I think Max may have been more on point than he knew with the whole "It has to be three" thing - I think that was a hint as to whatever importance they have to their home planet. 

I liked Alex and Maria's scenes - it was nice to actually see an indication that they do seem to be very close. That said, I kind of respect Maria's attempt to maintain her mother's privacy in an episode that was otherwise about everyone crossing everyone else's boundaries, but at the same time, Mimi is mentally unstable and pulling up her history could help figure out who might be manipulating her and leading to her getting "abducted", so for me that would definitely trump privacy. 

Also, it was odd to hear Alex say he and Kyle aren't friends, because I feel like they are, including in the scene where Alex gave Kyle the flask.

 

 

ETA for two things I forgot: #1, Max not being into science is another way Carina is more influenced by the OG show, because Book Max was every bit as much a science nerd as Liz. #2, did anyone get the vibe that Michael's boss is an alien, that he was deliberately prodding Michael into some realization, and that he kind of smiled when he succeeded for a second?

Edited April 14, 2020 by Cristofle

[backhometome]

This Max story is so cheesy. And not in a good way. The dream stuff with Rosa/Isobel and Max was bad.

I wish for more good things for Kyle. He doesn't get nearly enough for all he does. 

I hate that I found Maria/Alex cute. Because I still think she was a shitty friend to him. The Alien thing wasn't his secret to tell. That was on Liz and Michael. Plus he found out on his own. So I dont really think its even that she is now dating his ex. 

Baby Malex were adorable. 

[Bloga]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I mostly enjoyed this episode, because I always am invested in the relationships between the "Pod Squad", AKA Max, Michael, and Isobel. And I feel like the show has not done enough to explore Max and Michael's relationship, so it was nice to see some of that turn around in this episode. It was interesting that little Max appeared more capable of feeling Michael than little Isobel. 

That said, I agree that a lot of the drama in the heart surgery felt unnecessary, because it was Max and obviously he was going to come back. This felt a lot like Game of Thrones when there was so much drama over whether Jon would be able to come back - of course he will, so let's get on with that. That's the thing about "killing the hero" - a lot of the bringing them back feels like a waste of time. 

I think Max may have been more on point than he knew with the whole "It has to be three" thing - I think that was a hint as to whatever importance they have to their home planet. 

I liked Alex and Maria's scenes - it was nice to actually see an indication that they do seem to be very close. That said, I kind of respect Maria's attempt to maintain her mother's privacy in an episode that was otherwise about everyone crossing everyone else's boundaries, but at the same time, Mimi is mentally unstable and pulling up her history could help figure out who might be manipulating her and leading to her getting "abducted", so for me that would definitely trump privacy. 

Also, it was odd to hear Alex say he and Kyle aren't friends, because I feel like they are, including in the scene where Alex gave Kyle the flask.

 

 

ETA for two things I forgot: #1, Max not being into science is another way Carina is more influenced by the OG show, because Book Max was every bit as much a science nerd as Liz. #2, did anyone get the vibe that Michael's boss is an alien, that he was deliberately prodding Michael into some realization, and that he kind of smiled when he succeeded for a second?

        Hopefully there will be more flashbacks that shed light on Max and Michael´s relationship...Michael has serious abandonment issues, and rightly so, but Isobel and Max have always been there, kind of waiting in the sidelines for Michael to come around. There was a lot of resentment that this whole bringing Max back to life has done away with...now Max is the one pulling away from everyone, it will be interesting to see how Michael deals with that.

   The surgery scene felt very Grey´s Anatomy, which is very on the nose, since Jeanine was on that show. I would have made that scene shorter, to make way for other things...more Maria for starters...she was only on two scenes. I also didn´t understand Maria´s attitude regarding her mom´s privacy. Her mom is mentally ill, and was gone for a month, I think those two things warrant looking into her search history, for starters. Maria´ll probably change her mind and will really investigate what´s going on with her mom, I think we´ll see some of that. 

    Interesting theory Michael´s boss being an alien. If I remember correctly, they´ve known each other since Michael was in high school, and he looked out for him when Michael was being abused by his foster parent. His boss has been talked about quite a bit, but it´s the first time we see him, so that could be indicative of him making more appearances in future episodes. Who knows. 

[Cristofle]

Two things from Max's hellscape version of the Crashdown: one, nice small touch that the "special of the day" was Max's favorite shake, The Little Green Man. Two, I'm back to believing that Max's nightmares of being chained to the floor are his own memories prior to being put in the pod as a child, not any connection he had to the tortured aliens. That he was still chained to the floor in his mind is very specific and vivid, and while it's likely the aliens who were captured were in chains at some point, none of them were chained to the floor that we saw. 

If Michael is resentful of Alex because he felt abandoned when Alex went off to war without saying goodbye, that actually makes more sense than the resentment I've gotten from Michael to Alex in the past (he resents that Alex was kind to him and made him think humans could be good, he's resentful that he's Jesse Manes' son). Not entirely fair, but it's psychologically understandable. I still think Alex would be better off dating a guy who doesn't resent him so much, but then again, both Maria and Alex deserve better than how Michael treats them at the end of the day, heh. 

Lily and Amber continue to have solid chemistry as Isobel and Rosa, and I'm kind of sorry there's such an age gap between them now. 

 

[Bloga]

1 hour ago, Cristofle said:

Two things from Max's hellscape version of the Crashdown: one, nice small touch that the "special of the day" was Max's favorite shake, The Little Green Man. Two, I'm back to believing that Max's nightmares of being chained to the floor are his own memories prior to being put in the pod as a child, not any connection he had to the tortured aliens. That he was still chained to the floor in his mind is very specific and vivid, and while it's likely the aliens who were captured were in chains at some point, none of them were chained to the floor that we saw. 

 

 

         I think Max, Isobel, and Michael don´t remember anything about their lives prior to the crash because their minds were erased, to protect them from the trauma. If they were prisoners during the war in their home planet, it´s possible their mothers considered it was best for them not to remember anything, to give them a fresh start, or to protect them from whomever is after them. 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Bloga

[Bloga]

1 hour ago, Cristofle said:

I still think Alex would be better off dating a guy who doesn't resent him so much, but then again, both Maria and Alex deserve better than how Michael treats them at the end of the day, heh. 

           Michael gets a pass because he´s experienced a lot of trauma, and he has abandonment issues, but at some point he needs to own up his shitty behavior. Just in this episode he seemed to realize Max and Isobel have always been there for him, no matter how hard he pushed them away. Hopefully this is a point of inflection in his character development, as in he starts letting people in, he stops keeping people at an arms´ length, he´s a bit of a user...at least he´s self aware and knows he sees affection as currency...hopefully he stops going back and forth between Alex and Maria. In a perfect world, Alex and Maria would ditch his ass, I say this with love, Michael needs to work on his issues.

[Cristofle]

17 minutes ago, Bloga said:

         I think Max, Isobel, and Michael don´t remember anything about their lives prior to the crash because their minds were erased, to protect them from the trauma. If they were prisoners during the war in their home planet, it´s possible their mothers considered it was best for them not to remember anything, to give them a fresh start, or to protect them from whomever is after them. 

 

I don't think their minds were completely wiped, because Michael remembered how his mother looked when she was young right before she died. But I do think their minds were altered in some sort of attempt to protect them. Still, I think some things have broken through - the symbol, Max's nightmares of being chained to the floor, etc. I also think it's likely Max and Isobel knew Michael before the pods, because their mothers seemed so close in the aftermath of the crash. Also, Nora seemed to risk herself to get Max and Isobel and put them in the truck, not just Michael. Louise didn't appear until after the pods were in the truck. 

Michael needs to get himself together before he can be in a healthy adult relationship, because his knee-jerk reactions are not simply self-destructive - he hurts others in the process. He's deliberately hurtful to chase people off. As a child, he legit pulled a knife on Max to scare him off. I HOPE his talk with Coma!Max was the beginning of trying to find another way, but until he finds it, both Alex and Maria deserve better. 

The CGI to remove Vlamis and Nathan's facial hair in flashbacks is weird, but I still did enjoy the flashback to the 21st birthday. Max's smile when he woke up and saw Michael was cute, and the three of them came off as very natural with each other. 

I had to groan when Isobel FINALLY mentioned that Noah's pod is defective in the beginning. Max has been in there for months, y'all! 

I am not of the mind that Max has absorbed some part of Noah through the heart. Mostly because even in a sci-fi show I have trouble believing the heart has magical personality qualities, but also, Noah has been in Max's head since the premiere. Noah was never really stalking Rosa, he was stalking Max. I think maybe part of the darkness in Max after saving Rosa is the energy Noah put in her when he killed her. 

[peachmangosteen]

It legit looks like in order to make Max, Isobel, and Michael look younger they just put the snapchat baby filter over the bottom half of their faces, which both creeps me out and cracks me up. It's even funnier that they don't seem to really do it for Alex when he actually looks the oldest of all of them anyway.

I am massively over Michael and his issues. You're like 30, move on already, buddy!I thought his boss finally appearing was weird and he was definitely trying to get Michael to come to some realization so whoever specced that he might be an alien might be onto something.

Kyle finally admits he's Liz's doormat and then he just continues to be her doormat lol.

I loved the Alex/Maria scenes. Alex works better in friend mode imo. And Maria looked stunning so I enjoyed that. I get what's she's saying with the privacy thing, but come on now! Your mom is not well and was missing for a month, maybe worry more about finding out what's wrong with her than her privacy at this point!

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

still think Alex would be better off dating a guy who doesn't resent him so much, but then again, both Maria and Alex deserve better than how Michael treats them at the end of the day, heh. 

I agree that Michael treated Maria pretty badly in 2x01 but I don't see how he treats Alex badly? If anything it's the other way around in season one, where Alex treats Michael like his dirty secret, sleeps with him, breaks up, sleeps with him, breaks up etc. The only think Michael did was basically move on and say no after Alex now decided that he is ready for a relationship. Michael is under no obligation to dance to Alex's whims on this.

I also do not see any resentment towards Alex? Michael resents what the Manes family has done to his, but as we saw last episode, he does not blame Alex for any it. He also thanks Alex for all his help and it was Alex who wanted to help out - Michael did not ask for it. They seem to be getting along great.

As for Michael and Maria, Michael did apologize and make Maria some nice omelette with hot sauce and she seemed to enjoy it so maybe the apology was accepted. But now Michael has to apologize for all the secrets.

6 hours ago, Cristofle said:

That said, I kind of respect Maria's attempt to maintain her mother's privacy in an episode that was otherwise about everyone crossing everyone else's boundaries, but at the same time, Mimi is mentally unstable and pulling up her history could help figure out who might be manipulating her and leading to her getting "abducted", so for me that would definitely trump privacy. 

I am not sure how Maria was attempting to maintain her mother's privacy given she was at Alex's place to hack into her mother's personal laptop. I am also not sure how looking at her mother's search history was going to help in any way. Did Maria say her mother was getting manipulated? I must have missed that... But then this whole Mimi Deluca plot is badly written that I find it hard to care.

[Cristofle]

In terms of Michael resenting Alex, it comes a lot from how he acted in the finale and then again in the premiere. He called Alex, or loving Alex, the worst thing that ever happened to him, and he mentioned how his family is tangled in the conspiracy (which is flat-out just not Alex's fault and not a reason to be angry at him). And there have been other things here and there, like Michael telling Max that "just Alex screws him up" and then later seeming resentful that Alex gave him hope that people could be better, hence him refusing to have his hand healed so he could remember humans are awful. The vibe I get from their scenes, albeit it's been better in the most recent two episodes, is that Michael is constantly low-key angry at Alex. It wasn't like that early last season, but it got to be that way by the end and was still like that in the first couple episodes this season (although again, he's been nicer to Alex in the last two episodes). It just wasn't until this episode that it clicked that maybe he gives off that vibe because he feels like Alex abandoned him, rather than just being mad at Alex for happening to be born a Manes or for loving him.

19 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am not sure how Maria was attempting to maintain her mother's privacy given she was at Alex's place to hack into her mother's personal laptop. I am also not sure how looking at her mother's search history was going to help in any way. Did Maria say her mother was getting manipulated?

Maria had Alex hack into the laptop to bring up her mother's search history, and she told Alex she thought it might clue her in to who might have taken her, which made me think she suspected Mimi was being manipulated online. But when she saw that the search history was cleared, she told Alex not to get it back because she wanted to respect her mother's privacy. That was the part where I was thinking it was probably too late and if somehow, there was a clue in her search history as to what happened to her, it was worth going the extra step to bring it back since they'd already hacked the computer, lol. 

[Bloga]

49 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

am not of the mind that Max has absorbed some part of Noah through the heart. Mostly because even in a sci-fi show I have trouble believing the heart has magical personality qualities, but also, Noah has been in Max's head since the premiere. Noah was never really stalking Rosa, he was stalking Max. I think maybe part of the darkness in Max after saving Rosa is the energy Noah put in her when he killed her. 

            I think the darkness Max feels is produced by the act of healing itself. When he saved Liz, the entired town blacked out for days, now it´s 10 years´ worth of death he is carrying, so who knows what will take for Max to go back to normal. All that training Isobel has been doing is going to have a purpose now, that´s for sure. Now that I remember, Noah told him killing makes them stronger, healing makes them weak, resurrecting someone sends aliens to the dark side, it seems like

[Cristofle]

1 minute ago, Bloga said:

            I think the darkness Max feels is produced by the act of healing itself. When he saved Liz, the entired town blacked out for days, now it´s 10 years´ worth of death he is carrying, so who knows what will take for Max to go back to normal. All that training Isobel has been doing is going to have a purpose now, that´s for sure. Now that I remember, Noah told him killing makes them stronger, healing makes them weak, resurrecting someone sends aliens to the dark side, it seems like

There are indications that is not entirely true though, namely that Michael believed Max damaged his heart by harnessing the lightning to kill Noah. Also, Isobel has gotten sick at mindwarping in the past, and like she said, she's never done it to be altruistic. It's possible that destruction causes a kind of high; I think Max was more or less high on his playing Thor throughout the rest of the finale until he healed Rosa, and so he didn't notice that he'd been weakened by the battle with Noah. But I don't think it's as clear-cut as destruction makes them strong and healing makes them weak. I think they don't know how to use their powers, and that's closer to what makes them sick.

It isn't surprising that any time he heals because of a violent death or injury, it could end up meaning Max absorbs some of the darkness of that violence. Liz got shot. Michael got stabbed in the neck. Rosa was murdered. Those are all violent acts with violent and angry people behind them, and it seems Max absorbs some of that darkness and violence whenever he heals. And Rosa was the worst because she'd been dead for ten years, and she was killed using alien powers. (also, God only knows how Noah even took her body and got her in that pod, ugh)

 

[anamika]

29 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

In terms of Michael resenting Alex, it comes a lot from how he acted in the finale and then again in the premiere. He called Alex, or loving Alex, the worst thing that ever happened to him, and he mentioned how his family is tangled in the conspiracy (which is flat-out just not Alex's fault and not a reason to be angry at him).

Again, he is not wrong here? Alex did hurt him pretty badly in season one. Michael is to blame as well considering he went running anytime Alex wanted to be together. Michael should have said no right from the end of episode two when Alex once again sought him out after dumping him at the beginning of episode two. Alex did keep giving him hope that they could be a thing, then Jesse Manes gets into Alex's head and he dumps Michael for not being good enough. And this then feeds into Michael's abandonment issues.

And Alex's entire family is involved in a project against aliens. Again, not wrong? But I don't see where Michael ever holds that against Alex personally or is angry at him? He straight out tells Alex that he is not to blame in the last episode. If we are talking about 2x01 then I think Alex should have known better than to hand over to a grieving man a mugshot of his naked, bruised mother. Anyone would have gotten angry seeing that picture.

29 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

And there have been other things here and there, like Michael telling Max that "just Alex screws him up" and then later seeming resentful that Alex gave him hope that people could be better, hence him refusing to have his hand healed so he could remember humans are awful

Again, I don't see how these things are in supposed to be taken as negatives. Alex 'screws him up' is meant to be taken as Alex personally affects him a lot emotionally. Meaning he cares about Alex a lot. And yeah, Alex gave him hope and then that night everything changed and he keeps his mangled hand as a sign that hope is bad.

Michael is allowed to be angry at the way Alex treated him in season one. I don't see anything wrong with that. We criticize Kyle for being Liz's doormat and then expect Michael to just run into Alex's arms once again. Michael does not know if he can trust Alex to stay this time or if he is going to get dumped again like all the other times. That's why we have all this business about hope. Michael needs to deal with his trust issues and Alex needs to show that he intends to stay this time. That's the only way their relationship is happening again.

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by anamika

[Cristofle]

I actually don't think Michael should run into Alex's arms, because I'm not sure they're good for each other. But some of the resentment I got towards Alex from Michael at the end of last season and beginning of this season wasn't really about Alex's behavior in the first couple episodes of last season - it was that Alex and his family were "part of the alien conspiracy" (which thankfully, last week he said was not Alex's fault, but prior to that, that was not the vibe he was giving off, especially in his speech to Isobel in the finale) and that Alex had somehow given him hope when they were kids that people could be good. Alex ISN'T a bad person and shouldn't be the fixation of Michael's resentment that a lot of humans suck. 

But to be clear, I am not of the mind that Michael should go running back to Alex. If anything, I think Alex should date a guy where there isn't so much baggage between them, because I'm honestly not sure he ever has? Michael was definitely the first guy he had sex with because he said so, and I doubt he would have felt comfortable in a long-term relationship in the military, especially given his father. 

[RachelKM]

On 4/14/2020 at 9:19 AM, anamika said:

Again, he is not wrong here? Alex did hurt him pretty badly in season one. Michael is to blame as well considering he went running anytime Alex wanted to be together. Michael should have said no right from the end of episode two when Alex once again sought him out after dumping him at the beginning of episode two. Alex did keep giving him hope that they could be a thing, then Jesse Manes gets into Alex's head and he dumps Michael for not being good enough. And this then feeds into Michael's abandonment issues.

And Alex's entire family is involved in a project against aliens. Again, not wrong? But I don't see where Michael ever holds that against Alex personally or is angry at him? He straight out tells Alex that he is not to blame in the last episode. If we are talking about 2x01 then I think Alex should have known better than to hand over to a grieving man a mugshot of his naked, bruised mother. Anyone would have gotten angry seeing that picture.

Thank you.  Michael is no saint by any means, in that relationship or generally.  But I was starting to feel like maybe there was something wrong with me that I saw Alex as at least as toxic and hurtful as Michael.  

And yeah, Alex handed a man who spent his entire life feeling alone and abandoned, found his mother for 10 seconds, then watched her die evidence that his whole family line participated in her torture for 70 years evidence of said torture.  I'm not going to fault him for taking a couple of episodes to process.  Alex was, unfortunately, the face of the Manes family for a few weeks while Michael grieved.  He clearly got past it. 

And Michael didn't even brain him with the piece of the ship Alex handed him and admitted to hiding "because he was afraid Michael would leave."  That wasn't romantic.  It was creepy and manipulative as Hell.  Michael should be pissed about that.  Alex couldn't bring himself to commit in Season 1, but he flipping stole a piece of Michael's ship, something that Michael has pinned all of his (possibly overly optimistic and romanticized) hopes on to keep him from leaving.

Michael was WAY more chill about that than I would have been. 

 

On 4/14/2020 at 9:29 AM, Cristofle said:

But some of the resentment I got towards Alex from Michael at the end of last season and beginning of this season wasn't really about Alex's behavior in the first couple episodes of last season - it was that Alex and his family were "part of the alien conspiracy" (which thankfully, last week he said was not Alex's fault, but prior to that, that was not the vibe he was giving off, especially in his speech to Isobel in the finale) and that Alex had somehow given him hope when they were kids that people could be good.

As I said, I think a person grieving and misdirecting anger is understandable.  Give the guy some time to process his mother's death after 70 years of torture less than 50 miles from where he grew up feeling abandoned. 

And we learned in this episode that Alex apparently left for the military without warning or goodbye.  An 18 year old Alex was entitled to protect himself emotionally from what he saw was Michael spinning out of control.  He's even entitled to do that without saying goodbye or telling Michael what he'd decided.  But if he does those things, Michael is entitled to have feelings about it. 

On 4/14/2020 at 9:19 AM, anamika said:

Again, I don't see how these things are in supposed to be taken as negatives. Alex 'screws him up' is meant to be taken as Alex personally affects him a lot emotionally. Meaning he cares about Alex a lot. And yeah, Alex gave him hope and then that night everything changed and he keeps his mangled hand as a sign that hope is bad.

I read that scene the same way. In fact, it was one of the first times I saw that Michael really cared about and was deeply hurt by Alex.  He'd been presented as a cliche broody type who keeps everyone at an emotional distance.  But that scene showed that he didn't keep them at a distance at all and his behavior was more from hurt than indifference or aloofness. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by RachelKM

[Cristofle]

9 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

But if he does those things, Michael is entitled to have feelings about it. 

That I agree with, which was the point of my original comment about it. I understand if Michael feels abandoned by Alex not saying good-bye, more than I understood some of his other behavior towards Alex. 

I also agree that Michael was surprisingly calm about Alex keeping part of the ship. Maybe it's because Alex DID ultimately give it to him freely after a couple months, and given that Noah went on a rampage and Max died during that time span it's unlikely he could have tried to build a spaceship anyway, but that was something Alex did that I would have seen why Michael would have gotten angry. Given this episode, maybe Michael wasn't as angry as he's gotten about other things because he understands wanting to keep people from leaving. 

12 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I read that scene the same way. In fact, it was one of the first times I saw that Michael really cared about and was deeply hurt by Alex.  He'd been presented as a cliche broody type who keeps everyone at an emotional distance.  But that scene showed that he didn't keep them at a distance at all and his behavior was more from hurt than indifference or aloofness. 

I may be colored by Carina's commentary on this scene, because it wasn't super positive and she indicated Michael's "he screws me up" was an attempt to brush off his feelings for Alex in front of Max and a way of saying Alex is the only man he's ever been attracted to. But between her take on that scene and Michael's speech in the finale, I just didn't come away feeling like Michael had...healthy feelings towards Alex. And that wouldn't be surprising, because their relationship has had trauma, and was built on two traumatized and abused teenagers. That just doesn't mean they're good for each other. 

[anamika]

27 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

And Michael didn't even brain him with the piece of the ship Alex handed him and admitted to hiding "because he was afraid Michael would leave."  That wasn't romantic.  It was creepy and manipulative as Hell.  Michael should be pissed about that.  Alex couldn't bring himself to commit in Season 1, but he flipping stole a piece of Michael's ship, something that Michael has pinned all of his (possibly overly optimistic and romanticized) hopes on to keep him from leaving.

Alex does come across as pretty manipulative and possessive. He never acknowledges Michael in public, never tells his friends about Michael and then dumps him - twice - for stealing copper wire. But the minute he figures out that Michael and Maria slept together he makes a beeline to Maria's pub and outs Michael letting her know he was museum guy. It's like being the dog in the manger. He did not want to be with Michael but he did not want Michael to be with anyone else either. Like Michael has to be lonely and single despite Alex dumping him. That's pretty selfish and possessive.

That's why I don't have much of an issue with Michael and Maria and don't get all these 'poor Alex' comments. Michael seemingly cares for and loves Maria. Why is he expected to not be with the person he loves because Alex has a problem with it? Alex and Michael were no longer in a relationship when Maria and Michael started one.

Anyways lets see how these relationships progress in the back half of the season.

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by anamika

[Cristofle]

I don't think Michael or Maria are doing anything to Alex by getting together; that's not my issue with Michael and Alex. If Michael doesn't want to be with Alex, that's fine (and honestly may be for the best for both of them at this point). I don't know if I agree that Alex is overly possessive based on his reaction to Maria; he is clearly hurt by Michael having feelings for Maria, and that's okay because generally I haven't seen him take it much further than acknowledging it hurts but he can't really do anything about it. He's human  - - no one would have no reaction to the first person they ever fell for getting involved with their best friend. He hasn't vowed to cut Michael out of his life, he hasn't asked Maria to stay away from Michael (in this episode, he actually asked her not to write Michael off yet). The keeping the piece of the console is the most possessive thing Alex has done.

Now, Alex's FANS have NOT been good on other platforms about Maria, heh. That's been an absolute mess. But Alex himself has handled it more or less as best as he could. He has admitted he still has feelings for Michael and wishes there could be more between them, but he has accepted Michael telling him he doesn't want that. Yeah, he told Maria who Michael was to him when he found out they slept together and made it clear he wasn't thrilled it happened, but since Michael made it clear his feelings go deeper than a booty call, Alex has pretty much accepted that. Alex has never said and never indicated "I don't want to be with Michael, I just don't want Maria to have him." By the time he found out about Maria, he had already changed his tune and was asking for more of a relationship with Michael.

[jewel21]

So last night's episode left me a bit confused. 

Max is alive and in a coma but the next scene showed Isobel and Max fighting. Was that Isobel entering Max's head? Was there a time jump and now Max is awake? I'm so confuzzled. 

Secondly, wasn't Michael's hand healed last season? Why is he still wearing a bandanna rapped around it? Or is that just so people won't notice his healed hand?

[bettername2come]

5 minutes ago, jewel21 said:

Max is alive and in a coma but the next scene showed Isobel and Max fighting. Was that Isobel entering Max's head? Was there a time jump and now Max is awake? I'm so confuzzled. 

Didn't they show a "three weeks later" heading and Isobel saying he's been in a coma 12 years before he walks out and the fight starts?

Also, I'm just realizing I've been spelling Isobel wrong.

[Cristofle]

5 minutes ago, jewel21 said:

Max is alive and in a coma but the next scene showed Isobel and Max fighting. Was that Isobel entering Max's head? Was there a time jump and now Max is awake? I'm so confuzzled. 

There was a time jump in the very last scene. It said it was three weeks later. Max woke up alone with Isobel at the...whatever complex Alex set up for them, I already forgot the origins of that place, lol. And Isobel had arguably the line of the night when she snarkily joked that it was twelve years later and Taylor Swift is President now, but in the shot of the complex it said "three weeks later"

[jewel21]

Thank you! I must have looked away for a second because I did not see the 'three weeks later' and only heard Isobel say it was 12 years later and Taylor Swift was President and I had no idea wtf was happening, lol. I'm glad there wasn't a 12 year time jump, heh. 

[anamika]

6 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

By the time he found out about Maria, he had already changed his tune and was asking for more of a relationship with Michael.

No he wasn't. He told Michael that he wanted them to be friends and then went to Maria and spilled the beans. Why did he not bring up Maria to Michael if wanted more of a relationship with Michael? Later, when Michael goes to meet Maria, she shuts him down and sends him off because of what Alex told her. So Alex basically cuts off Michael's source of companionship despite not wanting a relationship with him. That's pretty selfish. 

In the next episode, Michael tells Maria that things have been over for a while between him and Alex. He had to tell her this because Alex gives Maria the impression that he and Michael were still a thing. 

And it's Michael who basically brings up the topic of Maria this season and lets Alex know what's what. And yeah, Alex has accepted it and that's good. Like he gave back the piece of ship. So Alex is moving on as well.

But that's the thing - all these characters make mistakes and are selfish and possessive and angry and hit out at others. I commented because I kept seeing only Michael getting blamed for 'treating others badly'. When they all have their share of the blame.

 

[Cristofle]

Just now, anamika said:

No he wasn't. He told Michael that he wanted them to be friends and then went to Maria and spilled the beans.

He didn't exactly say he only wanted them to be JUST friends. He said he wanted to start over and for them to be friends because he felt they'd skipped over that step, but also that he wanted to "know who Michael was" (and then he agreed that he also wanted to know what Michael was) and he acknowledged he'd been in love with Michael and felt a kind of 'cosmic' connection to him (which I have been skeptical of elsewhere, heh). I would not have walked away from that encounter if I were Michael feeling like Alex only wanted a platonic relationship with me. I thought Alex was being pretty clear he wanted more of a relationship with Michael. He certainly wasn't pushing him away anymore by that point.

My issue with Michael from late last season up to around this episode was more or less voiced by this episode, which is what I appreciated - Michael is angry at the world and often takes it out on those closest to him, and he's deliberately hurtful when he's pushing people away. And he admits he's doing it, which is a good sign because hopefully that means he's willing to change with whoever that may be (at this point it seems to be Max as "his family", but hey, it's a step in the right direction). Alex has not struck me as nearly as angry or resentful since maybe like...the third episode of last season. Alex has evolved since then, and it finally appears that Michael is as well. I'm still skeptical they are capable of being in a healthy relationship with each other, and leaning on the side of maybe they shouldn't be more than friends, but I am hopeful Michael is evolving past lashing out at the people closest to him every time he's upset or hurt. 

[Bloga]

 On second viewing, I have to say,  How the tables have turned!!!, Max saved Rosa, now Rosa saves Max...I wonder if Rosa´s newfound powers will come into play as this whole situation with Max going dark unfolds...Isobel is being featured as the one to fight his brother back to normal, but maybe she´ll need some assistance. 

 Did anyone chuckle at the "twincest" comment? I mean, they feel a bit too intense sometimes, those too. This whole I wouldn´t choose anyone over you, it´s a bit extreme. Thankfully it hasn´t veered into super creepy behavior, yet.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Bloga

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, jewel21 said:

Secondly, wasn't Michael's hand healed last season? Why is he still wearing a bandanna rapped around it? Or is that just so people won't notice his healed hand?

The only time I recall seeing Michael's hand bandaged was during the flashback with scenes. I didn't notice him wearing anything on it it the present day. It makes sense that he would, though.  Otherwise he'd have to explain the sudden healing.

He showed Maria a few episodes back.  He came in and played his guitar with his formerly damaged hand.  She looked stunned and moved.  Interestingly, it appears he was in the process of telling her the truth, though indirectly.  I got the impression he also intended to do so in the scene right after Rosa told her.  

41 minutes ago, Bloga said:

Did anyone chuckle at the "twincest" comment?

I absolutely did. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by RachelKM

[Cristofle]

I mentioned the milkshake earlier and more points about Max's mindscape in another thread, but this post goes into a lot more detail (note: the text has mild spoilers for next week's promo only, and beyond that is speculation) about how every bit of Max's mindscape was connected to Liz. Her antenna, his favorite shake that she makes for him, their lab table, the yearbook, the Jeep playing Bright Eyes. I rag on this show for having ridiculous plot points, lol, but I do really like attention to detail and callbacks of small things and this scene had quite a bit of it and I appreciate that.

Also, I feel like Michael fixing the Jeep and Rosa seeing the yearbook and being reminded of them being lab partners was probably deliberate, given the attention to the details in that scene, and so I spec that both those things came into play for a reason and will make a reappearance later. 

[tennisgurl]

We finally get some Maria! Its been so long since we saw her and Alex together I kind of forgot that they were even friends, but it was really nice to see them reconnecting. Alex even got to smile a few times! I am just really relieved that Maria knows, and I really hope she gets more to do now, especially with her mom still missing. You know Maria, I totally get wanting to respect your moms privacy, but she was also mentally unwell and is now missing, its possible that her search history could tell you something about where she went or what she was doing and/or interested in right before she disappeared. 

So five episodes in, and Max finally returns! As weird as the anti aging flashback CGI stuff was, I did like the flashbacks, and I think they did a pretty good job at showing more of Michael's relationships with the people in his life. I guess I assumed that Alex and Michael split after Daddy Manes broke his hand, and Alex left right after, so I was surprised that they were together for a bit after that. I think that all does explain a bit more about the resentment that is so present in their relationship, and that they did try to move past what happened, but there was too much going on, and what happened was too raw. I find the relationship between Michael and Alex to be really interesting, but they really shouldn't be a couple any time soon. They might be doing better now, but they have way too much baggage to get close to being together again yet. Maybe at some point, when they've hashed out their stuff more, but right now, being around each other just seems to be so mutually painful. 

I also liked seeing more of Michael's history with Max and Isobel, especially Michael's history of pushing them away, no matter how hard Max tries to be there for him. I can imagine how much it would suck, the other two kids your found with get adopted by a nice family and you get stuck with a series of crappy foster parents, I can see how that would make someone bitter. Plus, Michael actually got to do some science stuff! I also liked the interaction between Liz and Michael a lot, I feel like we hardly ever saw them interact last season, but I like their dynamic a lot. You know, I am ready for Max to be back in the main story, but him not being around has given a lot of the other characters a chance to really interact where they didn't before.

I also like Rosa and Isobel as three way call buds, but Isobel really needs to stop screwing with peoples heads and knocking them out! Seriously, I would think that she would have learned better after the Noah disaster! 

Going to have to re-watch Max's dreamscape, there was clearly a lot going on, and a lot of foreshadowing. I like the idea that he and Rosa are now connected, and that this could tie into some childhood trauma that was erased from his memory. I mean, the aliens certainly had to have some reason to have been speeding around the galaxy when they crashed on Earth, right?

I also love that when Max was trying to do his big heroic self sacrificial martyr "I must die I cant risk anyone being hurt because of me and my angst" bit, everyone just told him to stop with the drama and come back.

[Bloga]

22 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I mentioned the milkshake earlier and more points about Max's mindscape in another thread, but this post goes into a lot more detail (note: the text has mild spoilers for next week's promo only, and beyond that is speculation) about how every bit of Max's mindscape was connected to Liz. Her antenna, his favorite shake that she makes for him, their lab table, the yearbook, the Jeep playing Bright Eyes. I rag on this show for having ridiculous plot points, lol, but I do really like attention to detail and callbacks of small things and this scene had quite a bit of it and I appreciate that.

Also, I feel like Michael fixing the Jeep and Rosa seeing the yearbook and being reminded of them being lab partners was probably deliberate, given the attention to the details in that scene, and so I spec that both those things came into play for a reason and will make a reappearance later. 

         More specifically, Max´s mindscape is connected to high school Liz, and by extension, high school Max...his memories of Liz were  his happy place for so many years before she came back, so I guess it was easy for him to recall those things when he was in limbo...The only thing that represented adult Max was his uniform...

[Cristofle]

2 minutes ago, Bloga said:

         More specifically, Max´s mindscape is connected to high school Liz, and by extension, high school Max...his memories of Liz were  his happy place for so many years before she came back, so I guess it was easy for him to recall those things when he was in limbo...The only thing that represented adult Max was his uniform...

And the uniform is also connected to a happy memory of Liz - she was teasing him that "it was the uniform" that made her want to get into his pants after they made love. 

I noticed on a second watch of the scene that the pieces kept disappearing, like the antenna vanished in Isobel's hands. (referencing the promo)

Spoiler

So I now speculate that Max is being serious in the promo - he doesn't remember Liz. Those fragments were what he was desperately trying to cling to as he died, so he could still be "Max", and the dark energy was absorbing them and is blocking her memory from him. But I think Rosa saw the yearbook and remembered they were lab partners for a reason - she is going to remember what she saw in his mind and it'll help her know how to get his memories back. 

 

[Bloga]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

We finally get some Maria! Its been so long since we saw her and Alex together I kind of forgot that they were even friends, but it was really nice to see them reconnecting. Alex even got to smile a few times! I am just really relieved that Maria knows, and I really hope she gets more to do now, especially with her mom still missing. You know Maria, I totally get wanting to respect your moms privacy, but she was also mentally unwell and is now missing, its possible that her search history could tell you something about where she went or what she was doing and/or interested in right before she disappeared. 

So five episodes in, and Max finally returns! As weird as the anti aging flashback CGI stuff was, I did like the flashbacks, and I think they did a pretty good job at showing more of Michael's relationships with the people in his life. I guess I assumed that Alex and Michael split after Daddy Manes broke his hand, and Alex left right after, so I was surprised that they were together for a bit after that. I think that all does explain a bit more about the resentment that is so present in their relationship, and that they did try to move past what happened, but there was too much going on, and what happened was too raw. I find the relationship between Michael and Alex to be really interesting, but they really shouldn't be a couple any time soon. They might be doing better now, but they have way too much baggage to get close to being together again yet. Maybe at some point, when they've hashed out their stuff more, but right now, being around each other just seems to be so mutually painful. 

I also liked seeing more of Michael's history with Max and Isobel, especially Michael's history of pushing them away, no matter how hard Max tries to be there for him. I can imagine how much it would suck, the other two kids your found with get adopted by a nice family and you get stuck with a series of crappy foster parents, I can see how that would make someone bitter. Plus, Michael actually got to do some science stuff! I also liked the interaction between Liz and Michael a lot, I feel like we hardly ever saw them interact last season, but I like their dynamic a lot. You know, I am ready for Max to be back in the main story, but him not being around has given a lot of the other characters a chance to really interact where they didn't before.

I also like Rosa and Isobel as three way call buds, but Isobel really needs to stop screwing with peoples heads and knocking them out! Seriously, I would think that she would have learned better after the Noah disaster! 

Going to have to re-watch Max's dreamscape, there was clearly a lot going on, and a lot of foreshadowing. I like the idea that he and Rosa are now connected, and that this could tie into some childhood trauma that was erased from his memory. I mean, the aliens certainly had to have some reason to have been speeding around the galaxy when they crashed on Earth, right?

I also love that when Max was trying to do his big heroic self sacrificial martyr "I must die I cant risk anyone being hurt because of me and my angst" bit, everyone just told him to stop with the drama and come back.

       I was also surprised Alex and Michael were still together after the incident, it feels like they tried, but Michael was spiraling because of what happened with Rosa, they were super young, a lot of s&5t went down on both sides...

   omg the cgi was specially bad on that scene at the Crashdown cafe. Max´s face looked off-center as well, it was like one of those instagram filters, holy cow.

  This martyr act has everybody groaning, aliens and humans alike, they are all like: Yeah yeah yeah, ok Max, you´ll die for us, keeping with the Easter spirit lol

[Bloga]

3 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

And the uniform is also connected to a happy memory of Liz - she was teasing him that "it was the uniform" that made her want to get into his pants after they made love. 

I noticed on a second watch of the scene that the pieces kept disappearing, like the antenna vanished in Isobel's hands. (referencing the promo)

  Hide contents

So I now speculate that Max is being serious in the promo - he doesn't remember Liz. Those fragments were what he was desperately trying to cling to as he died, so he could still be "Max", and the dark energy was absorbing them and is blocking her memory from him. But I think Rosa saw the yearbook and remembered they were lab partners for a reason - she is going to remember what she saw in his mind and it'll help her know how to get his memories back. 

 

              Yeah, everything kept disappearing, when he was dying, all that was left was the Jeep and the song...he´s an empty shell now...time to fill him up with love, I guess, once he gets past the fighting to the death with Iz. 

Spoiler

  So if he doesn´t remember Liz, what about everyone else? Is everything gone from his memory except for Isobel? He does remember he told them not to bring him back, but he doesn´t remember telling Rosa to tell Liz not to bring him back....or does he? Does he remember Rosa? They have been connected for a long time, I don´t know if the handprint is completely gone by now.

 

[peachmangosteen]

 

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

The only time I recall seeing Michael's hand bandaged was during the flashback with scenes. I didn't notice him wearing anything on it it the present day. It makes sense that he would, though.  Otherwise he'd have to explain the sudden healing.

I'm pretty sure he's been covering it with a bandage all season so far and yea, I just assumed it was so no one would notice it'd been healed.

2 hours ago, Bloga said:

         More specifically, Max´s mindscape is connected to high school Liz, and by extension, high school Max...his memories of Liz were  his happy place for so many years before she came back, so I guess it was easy for him to recall those things when he was in limbo...The only thing that represented adult Max was his uniform...

That is ... not healthy lol. All of these people really need to grow up!

All of this talk about Michael and Alex just really highlights imo how obviously bad they are for each other. Great job with your fave couple, Carina!

[Cristofle]

Even though I've defended Alex in this thread, and even though I like him, one thing that grates is that I feel like Carina is...more concerned with protecting him as a character than Michael, even though she clearly loves Vlamis. And sorry, but Michael will be more important to Roswell lore every day of the week.

[UNOSEZ]

Maybe I'm finally becoming a real adult.. But I'm sooooooo tired of characters acting like D-Bags and then explaining it away with trite terms like putting up walls and pushing ppl away when it's obvious you need them.. I'm of the belief that we can get compelling drama.. And ppl can still be somewhat emotionally mature

[backhometome]

19 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Even though I've defended Alex in this thread, and even though I like him, one thing that grates is that I feel like Carina is...more concerned with protecting him as a character than Michael, even though she clearly loves Vlamis. And sorry, but Michael will be more important to Roswell lore every day of the week.

Carina is obsessed with MV. In a cringe way. It kinda makes me roll my eyes at Michael on screen. 

I dont see how Alex is protected my her at all. She only sees him as an extension to Michael and how it serves his arc. He follows Michael around after the crap he gave him at the start of the season. and now he has to encourage Maria to fix it with Michael. After Maria couldn't even be honest with him for how long.

[peachmangosteen]

Just now, backhometome said:

Carina is obsessed with MV. In a cringe way. It kinda makes me roll my eyes at Michael on screen. 

Yea, I'm starting to wonder if I'm being negatively impacted by Carina's obsession with MV and Michael/Alex and letting that cause me to actively hate Michael and their relationship on screen as opposed to them actually being hateable. I don't know if that makes sense lol.

[Cristofle]

I don't like how she goes on about Vlamis either; it reminds me of that one time Shonda Rhimes said she pressed herself against the screen and pretended Patrick Dempsey was talking to her.

It's mostly that she seems to take such care in making sure Alex is the wounded one. It's not that she is putting a ton of thought into Alex as his own person, it's more how she writes the pairing. This is the first episode in ages where I felt like she gave Michael a legitimate reason for having abandonment issues where Alex is concerned. Michael frequently is written as angrier and more of a jerk in their scenes, while Alex goes out of his way to help him. 

[backhometome]

22 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Yea, I'm starting to wonder if I'm being negatively impacted by Carina's obsession with MV and Michael/Alex and letting that cause me to actively hate Michael and their relationship on screen as opposed to them actually being hateable. I don't know if that makes sense lol.

 Sometimes I wonder if she remembers she has a full cast and not just him. I am def. being impacted  on screen by her obsession with him. Its so hard not too. lol. 

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Yea, I'm starting to wonder if I'm being negatively impacted by Carina's obsession with MV and Michael/Alex and letting that cause me to actively hate Michael and their relationship on screen as opposed to them actually being hateable. I don't know if that makes sense lol.

I'll say, MV's comments about Michael/Maria vs Michael/Alex at the end of last season certainly didn't help my perception on Michael/Alex or MV as an actor (in which he could barely muster up comments about Michael/Maria past "Maria's a good character" and then went nonstop praising on Michael/Alex for several interviews). That being said, Carina and Michael seem to have gotten better PR reps this season who are able to reign in their biases within their answers in interviews. They still have a lot of work to do, but those two clearly show how they are rookies at their jobs. Carina in her being a new showrunner and actually having to give interviews, and Michael with being a relatively new actor compared to everyone else on the show.

But I do think that Michael's trauma and asshole behaviour can shadow Alex's issues as well. They're both clearly terrible for each other. It's just that Michael's treatment of Alex seems to appear worse in ways because we hear a lot more of how Michael pushed Alex away for a long time, and we see Michael being more upfront about his assholeness. 

Not that I remember much about what happened last season, especially when it comes to Alex because he's such a boring character. Which is why I appreciated his scenes with Maria this episode and his recent scenes with Kyle. Tyler Blackburn seems to actually come alive more in these scenes, so I notice him more. 

But...I do tend to agree that, although Carina clearly loves MV and Michael, she also has protected Alex as a character way more. She's not afraid to showcase Michael as an asshole because they've very clearly set his character as one. But, with Alex, I think we are supposed to see him as the character who is good and is supportive and, in a way, also a victim of circumstance. I think Carina protects Alex by writing as little for him as possible. If he's not a fully fledged character, he can't possibly be an asshole because that means you'd have to root for or against him as an individual character, instead of just rooting for him with Michael. 

But, no matter where everyone falls on the love triangle stuff, I think we can agree that 100% of romantic relationships on this show are....questionable, at best. I think there is either a layer of secrecy or there's a straight up issue with consent. I can't name one romantic relationship on this show that is healthy and that I would recommend anyone to root for, in all honesty. 

Like...I'd rather root for Maria/Rosa to get together and run away from this town. 

But genuinely, either it's because I can't remember 80% of what happened in season 1 or the show came at a better time in my life, but this season does seem to be better at character interactions. It feels like characters are finally taking responsibility over the mess of the last ten years of their lives, and I really hope that it continues, because they ALL have some things to make amends for. This episode had Michael figuring that out with Max and Isobel, we had Maria/Alex make amends, and we're seeing Kyle kind of deal with his own issues, especially when it comes to Liz.

[Chick2Chic]

30 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Yea, I'm starting to wonder if I'm being negatively impacted by Carina's obsession with MV and Michael/Alex and letting that cause me to actively hate Michael and their relationship on screen as opposed to them actually being hateable. I don't know if that makes sense lol.

I get it cause I have been there with fandoms that make me dislike a character or ship more than anything the character / ship has done or said.

Personally my issues with Carina are still about how poorly she treats Maria overall with regard to story + screentime and how much Carina has robbed that character she "fought so hard to be a Black woman" of pretty much everything in order to give it to others, namely Alex.