S02.E09: Croatoan

[DittyDotDot]

When Sam has a vision of Dean killing a young man who seems to be possessed by a demon, the two brothers head to Oregon to search for answers.

[DittyDotDot]

WARNING: The following may contain a lot of unhappy thoughts and feelings about this episode. If you are a lover of this episode, you should avoid reading the following paragraphs. These thoughts and feelings should be kept out of reach of small children and possibly also taken in small doses. Adults should consult their own conscious for proper dosage. Side effects can include: Bouts of anger in support of the episode, bouts of anger against the episode and/or could also induce mood swings because I've thoroughly changed your mind. Either way, they may not be fun to read.

 

Anyway, I've never cared for the pointless and contrived and entirely ridiculous amount of grimness and angst in this episode. It feels so out of tone and is so jarring to me that I would like to pretend it doesn't exist, but sadly they keep brining it back up and reminding me. It really struck me last night that this episode would actually fit tonally into whatever it is they seem to be doing the last couple of years. It's like Carver and Co. watched this episode and said "this is the show we want to make."  Well, Carver and Co., it's not the show I care to see. And I now understand why it is that some folks blame a lot of the current tonal shift and problems with the show on Bob Singer--he's the only one still around, but also he directed this episode and set that stupid tone.

 

First, Sam and Dean both feel out of character here. Starting with the bickering in the car (I say bickering rather than bantering because that's what it is). All season they have both been nothing but supportive of each other and the last episode had Sam seriously concerned about where Dean's head was at concerning those demon deals, but here he picks a fight with Dean that not only doesn't make sense, is tonally way off, IMO. It's just feels like conflict for the sake of conflict, IMO.  And Dean seems to be far more gung-ho to blow people away than he is about saving them and the way he bites on that bait from Sam just has me thinking it's not really Dean. This episode is also kind of an example of how they tend to get more caught up in a concept and instead of making the concept work in-universe, they bend the universe and the characters to fit the concept.  (Sorry, that actually does make sense inside this nightmare of a brain I have.)

 

Then we have the fact that I still don't really understand what Roanoke really has to do with the demon virus...was Roanoke another testing grounds for a previous Sam? If they had never brought up the Croatoan virus again, I could have wanked this all away, but what comes later makes this even more nonsensical...I don't want to have to put it all under spoiler tags and it's really not that important anyway, so I'll just move on. It also makes no sense that doctor just stands around shrugging throughout the entire episode. She doesn't seem to be concerned or trying to help them or really doing anything more than saying "I don't know". What kind of doctor doesn't at least try to find a cure before she allows some random stranger to start shooting her patients. I don't know, but it all seems so contrived to me.

 

I can't even bring myself to discuss the two scenes of talking about their feelings. I do think that Jensen and Jared both up their game and put out great performances, though. It's just that I could have lived without a lot of the angst here and is probably more due to how I think they have way overused them lately that drags these scenes down retrospectively. And again they feel a bit tonally off to me.

 

So, there are two things that I find actually are enjoyable to watch here. First, that entire scene where Dean comes up to the roadblock and finishes with Dean driving recklessly away. Very well shot action sequence and I love how Dean is sitting in the car and you can see him working out his options from the moment he stops and sees that kid that Sam failed to "ventilate." (Which brings up another thing about this episode that bugs me...some very weird language choices, it's like they were trying to talk as the young people say...) Secondly--I like the scene with the Master Sargent and Dean driving in the car pointing their weapons at each other.

 

I did try to end it on a positive, hope that helps with any of the negative side effects. ;)

[mstaken]

DittyDot, we're once again on the same proverbial page, only you said it all far more eloquently than I could have. I find this a glacially paced, mawkish, unnecessarily depressing episode that I resent more retrospectively now that the series has (IMO) become so glacially paced, mawkish and unnecessarily depressing overall. I'll readily grant that I'm not a fan of 'OMG, one of our characters may be infected with some sort of vague virus but we know they'll be okay since they aren't being written off the show yet!' episodes anyway. As myths and legends go, this just isn't a favorite of mine, and I'm totally with you on being foggy on the connection between the lost town of Roanoake (which I actually would have loved to learn more about) and the demon virus (which I had very little interest in learning about at all!) 

 

 

 

I can't even bring myself to discuss the two scenes of talking about their feelings.

 

Ha---was it really only two?! It felt like ever so many more. For me the dialogue was heavyhanded and awkward and most-guys-just-don't-talk-that-way even by SPN standards. 

 

Sadly, the 'schoolhouse rock' joke was the undisputed highlight of the entire episode for me :) 

Edited July 12, 2014 by mstaken

[DittyDotDot]

Ha---was it really only two?! It felt like ever so many more. For me the dialogue was heavyhanded and awkward and most-guys-just-don't-talk-that-way even by SPN standards. 

 

Very fine point. Much of the dialogue was just all sorts of wrong...but I was actually referring to the scene where Dean expresses his desire to commit suicide on the alter of brotherly angst and then that end scene where Dean reveals ::gasp:: that Dad told him a secret. Again, it's not a performance issue, Jared and Jensen both really play the hell out of it, just the writing and entire contrivedness of it makes me roll my eyes and possibly groan a bit rather than have those "feels" that I think the show was actually going for.

[mstaken]

. Again, it's not a performance issue, Jared and Jensen both really play the hell out of it, just the writing and entire contrivedness of it makes me roll my eyes and possibly groan a bit rather than have those "feels" that I think the show was actually going for.

 

It's so true. The funny thing is that when I think of the SPN moments I've found most genuinely poignant and effective, they tend to have surprisingly little dialogue---or at least very little explicit, anvilicious bloviating on their angst-drenched FEELINGS. This is one of so many SPN episodes where I find myself wishing the SPN writers knew that sometimes less is more and that they had enough faith in the intelligence of their audience and the competence of their actors to trust that we'll know certain things about how the boys are feeling without having them whine and whimper at painful length about it in so many freaking episodes.

 

...After this one, I'm looking to cleanse my palette with an episode that's witty, adrenaline-pumping, adventurous FUN.  Any suggestions?! 

Edited July 12, 2014 by mstaken

[DittyDotDot]

Fun and witty...Tall Tales or Hollywood Babylon are both good ones. Adrenaline pumping...Born Under A Bad Sign. I'm starting to get anxious for the second half of S2...lots of good ones, one right after the other.

 

Of course for fun, witty and adrenaline pumping, I'd probably go back to The Pilot episode. ;)

Edited July 12, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Pete Martell]

I can never get past the romantic music they play when Dean tells Sam he's going to do murder/suicide with Sam. If anything tells you where SPN went off the rails, it was that scene.

[DittyDotDot]

Is it romantic...I thought it was Dean's Family Theme that they play whenever Dean's in "serious" emotional distress. Actually, I can't remember what they play, I was barely watching the scene as it is. Just a guess on my part. 

 

Yeah, the tone of that scene is just so very wrong.

[7kstar]

Very fine point. Much of the dialogue was just all sorts of wrong...but I was actually referring to the scene where Dean expresses his desire to commit suicide on the alter of brotherly angst and then that end scene where Dean reveals ::gasp:: that Dad told him a secret. Again, it's not a performance issue, Jared and Jensen both really play the hell out of it, just the writing and entire contrivedness of it makes me roll my eyes and possibly groan a bit rather than have those "feels" that I think the show was actually going for.

the reason I like those scenes is that I jump out of audience mode and jump into director mode.  They do act the hell out of those moments but it isn't a show I watch all the way and yes it has several issues but I get distracted by the acting and I forget about how contrive it is.  So if the scene is acted well, I can't help myself, I'll like that scene even if I don't love that ep.

 

\

 

Anyway, I've never cared for the pointless and contrived and entirely ridiculous amount of grimness and angst in this episode. It feels so out of tone and is so jarring to me that I would like to pretend it doesn't exist, but sadly they keep brining it back up and reminding me. It really struck me last night that this episode would actually fit tonally into whatever it is they seem to be doing the last couple of years. It's like Carver and Co. watched this episode and said "this is the show we want to make."  Well, Carver and Co., it's not the show I care to see. And I now understand why it is that some folks blame a lot of the current tonal shift and problems with the show on Bob Singer--he's the only one still around, but also he directed this episode and set that stupid tone.

 

First, Sam and Dean both feel out of character here. Starting with the bickering in the car  - snip- has me thinking it's not really Dean. This episode is also kind of an example of how they tend to get more caught up in a concept and instead of making the concept work in-universe, they bend the universe and the characters to fit the concept.  (Sorry, that actually does make sense inside this nightmare of a brain I have.)

 

I can't even bring myself to discuss the two scenes of talking about their feelings. I do think that Jensen and Jared both up their game and put out great performances, though. It's just that I could have lived without a lot of the angst here and is probably more due to how I think they have way overused them lately that drags these scenes down retrospectively. And again they feel a bit tonally off to me.

 

So, there are two things that I find actually are enjoyable to watch here. First, that entire scene where Dean comes up to the roadblock and finishes with Dean driving recklessly away. Very well shot action sequence and I love how Dean is sitting in the car and you can see him working out his options from the moment he stops and sees that kid that Sam failed to "ventilate." (Which brings up another thing about this episode that bugs me...some very weird language choices, it's like they were trying to talk as the young people say...) Secondly--I like the scene with the Master Sargent and Dean driving in the car pointing their weapons at each other.

 

I did try to end it on a positive, hope that helps with any of the negative side effects. ;)

Maybe the problem really is that we think about these things over and over and they don't.  They write, film and edit it and go yes that works and never think about it again.  Sometimes I've even heard the actors at the con say tell me what happened I don't remember.  So if the actors can't remember and the writers don't remember isn't it a wonder it's a mess?

 

Those two fun scenes are why I do like parts of this ep but it is one you can easily ignore and one I don't really rewatch that often.

[AwesomO4000]

...After this one, I'm looking to cleanse my palette with an episode that's witty, adrenaline-pumping, adventurous FUN.  Any suggestions?!

 

If you don't mind skipping ahead before going back to season 2 rewatch... "Slash Fiction" or "Plucky Pennywhistle..." would do it for me. Or "Changing Channels" or maybe even "Clap Your Hands..." (the "Major Tom" scene and crazy fairy lady never fail to amuse me. That actress played the hell out of that part in my opinion.)

 

I haven't rewatched this yet, but mostly I remember that  I thought it was interesting that Sam was wiling to let Dean commit suicide - rather than clocking him one and throwing him out of the room - when every other time in this series they're doing all sorts of shit to keep each other alive no matter what. That just seems so weird in retrospect.

 

Also the mixed messages I remember from this episode make my head hurt. So was it a good thing or a bad thing that Sam didn't "ventilate" that kid and talked Dean out of shooting the other kid? It appeared bad that Sam didn't kill the first kid, but then the second kid wasn't infected, so it was at first good that Dean didn't kill him, but then it turned out he was a demon after all so what the hell? Does that mean "shoot first and ask questions later" was supposed to be a good thing? So Sam is supposed to be less sentimental and more like John? Until later anyway when it's shown to be a bad thing, I guess. I was just so confused.

[catrox14]

I liked this episode. But then I'm a sucker for in-media-res so that really hooked me. I thought the doctor being a small town doctor was just flummoxed about what to do. She used the tools she had to figure out what she could. For some reason I thought she called the CDC for help, but I can't remember exactly. She has the issue of who to believe and who not to believe.  I thought it was just a one off so I can forgive some of peculiarities. However, once we get to

THE END I forgive all the contrivances because they paid it off in spades.

[7kstar]

The one thing I liked about Sam is that he didn't try to force his wishes on his brother.  Yes he tried to get him to leave but he also allowed Dean's being weary of going it alone to decide his own fate.

 

I don't think it was suicide as much as it was if you're going down then I'm going down with you.

this seems to be Dean's trademark and he showed it in the season 5 finale. He showed up willing to die so that Sam wasn't alone. He didn't care about the consequences for him just so much that his brother didn't face the situation alone.

 

I think it has been shown in prior eps that Dean puts Sammy over him anytime.  I think in faith he knew that Sam could return to the normal life but Dean always expected to go out hunting.  As long as he had a good run, he didn't mind how it ended. 

 

Still not my favorite ep, but it has a few good moments.  The doctor bit is almost like showing the stereotype that small town doctors just don't know how to deal with a major crisis.  At least that is how I took it.  But then again, I'm from a small town and the doctors usually aren't the best in a small town.  But sometimes you do get lucky.

[mertensia]

This is a pretty good episode even if I do keep thinking the dad was played by the guy who plays Hodges on CSI. 

 

Yeah, the doctor- limited resources: she is in a small town, after all- is doing the best she can. 

 

The whole town and townspeople creepiness was well-played here. The men blocking the road out of town. That scene of Dean driving right before he meets ex-master sergeant dude. The abandoned cars. 

 

And you can see Dean's breakdown continuing. He couldn't even save Sam inside a controlled environment; it's only right to die with him. 

[DittyDotDot]

I thought the doctor being a small town doctor was just flummoxed about what to do. She used the tools she had to figure out what she could. For some reason I thought she called the CDC for help, but I can't remember exactly. She has the issue of who to believe and who not to believe.  I thought it was just a one off so I can forgive some of peculiarities. However, once we get to

THE END I forgive all the contrivances because they paid it off in spades.

 

Well, she says that they should call the CDC, but the phone lines were down. Why the doctor bugs me isn't because she's a small town doctor with limited resources and doesn't know the answers...she let Dean shoot one of her patients without even looking for an answer. And then she just stood there and shrugged when Dean was about to shoot that kid. Yes, I realize he turned out to be a demon, but the doctor didn't know that nor did anyone else other than the audience ever learn that. It just seems like rather weird behavior for a doctor. I grew up in a small town, lived in a city and currently live in a small town again, I have never known a doctor to just stand by and shrug in the face of a problem. We will have to agree to disagree on what's under that spoiler tag because I think what comes later makes this episode even more nonsensical, but we can talk about that more when we get there.

 

 

 

I don't think it was suicide as much as it was if you're going down then I'm going down with you.

 

I understood that Dean's motivations were that if Sam's going down, he's going down with him--suicide was probably too strong a word--and I can respect that point of view. I just didn't like the way the scene was written for the melodrama. I don't like it when the show (or any show really) is trying to get me to cry on cue (same reason I don't like laugh tracks in sitcoms) that's how I feel when I watch that scene--they want me to cry in 3, 2, 1, now. And funnily enough, it's mostly how I feel when watching the show the last two seasons.

 

 

I'll readily grant that I'm not a fan of 'OMG, one of our characters may be infected with some sort of vague virus but we know they'll be okay since they aren't being written off the show yet!' episodes anyway.

 

I forgot I had a response to this earlier...one of my most hated tropes that many shows go to over and over and over again. Same reason I don't care for a certain episode in S6 with vampires. It's just a bunch of ridiculousness that is set up for that emotional manipulation I was referring to earlier. If they want to get an emotional response from me, they need to work harder, I've watched far too much genre television to fall for these simple little tricks.

Edited July 14, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Pete Martell]

I thought Dean's actions were true to the character, but I was upset that they were romanticized. This was the first time I felt the show romanticized his belief that his life was of no value so he had to die for/with Sam. 

 

I agree that the episode sent out mixed messages. All the time spent on Sam's way being the best and then it turns out he was also wrong. The whole thing was just miserable fatalism.

 

Other than that scene about murder/suicide, the ending, and the awful scene where Dean didn't know what Roanoke was, I did think there were some strong moments. 

[catrox14]

To be fair, I am old and I didn't know what Roanoke was until it was mentioned in another show I watch...

[7kstar]

I thought Dean's actions were true to the character, but I was upset that they were romanticized. This was the first time I felt the show romanticized his belief that his life was of no value so he had to die for/with Sam. 

 

I agree that the episode sent out mixed messages. All the time spent on Sam's way being the best and then it turns out he was also wrong. The whole thing was just miserable fatalism.

 

Other than that scene about murder/suicide, the ending, and the awful scene where Dean didn't know what Roanoke was, I did think there were some strong moments. 

I didn't know what Roanoke was and I'm sure there are many that don't remember that part of history.  Dean not knowing was to make sure that the audience would know.  So although you might have found it stupid, there are people out there that don't know or didn't find it fascinating to remember it.

 

I see Dean willing to die as planting the seed so the finale will make sense.  If Dean was all about doing it on his own, why would he feel the need to go and get Sam back in the pilot. But I've grown up with some really stupid shows and most shows have some not so good parts so I give this a pass.

 

It isn't my favorite, nor is it the worst one for me in the season.

[Pete Martell]

I didn't know what Roanoke was and I'm sure there are many that don't remember that part of history.  Dean not knowing was to make sure that the audience would know.  So although you might have found it stupid, there are people out there that don't know or didn't find it fascinating to remember it.

 

I think there were better ways to explain it to viewers. Dean mainloads that type of interesting, weird history, and I always thought something like that would be hunter lore 101, because how often do entire towns disappear?

 

I cut the show some slack for these "dumb Dean has to learn things to advance the plot" sometimes, but this one just seemed so OOC to me. 

[7kstar]

I think there were better ways to explain it to viewers. Dean mainloads that type of interesting, weird history, and I always thought something like that would be hunter lore 101, because how often do entire towns disappear?

 

I cut the show some slack for these "dumb Dean has to learn things to advance the plot" sometimes, but this one just seemed so OOC to me. 

I agree they could have done Dean talking about how much he loved the mystery and figured it had to be tied into hunting and wondering what type of evil monster was it.  Something to that effect. 

 

It just didn't throw me out during the watching of it because I got it was another Sam showing off just how smart he was since he had the better education.

[sarthaz]

Anyway, I've never cared for the pointless and contrived and entirely ridiculous amount of grimness and angst in this episode. It feels so out of tone and is so jarring to me that I would like to pretend it doesn't exist, but sadly they keep brining it back up and reminding me. It really struck me last night that this episode would actually fit tonally into whatever it is they seem to be doing the last couple of years. It's like Carver and Co. watched this episode and said "this is the show we want to make."  Well, Carver and Co., it's not the show I care to see. And I now understand why it is that some folks blame a lot of the current tonal shift and problems with the show on Bob Singer--he's the only one still around, but also he directed this episode and set that stupid tone.

 

First, Sam and Dean both feel out of character here. Starting with the bickering in the car (I say bickering rather than bantering because that's what it is). All season they have both been nothing but supportive of each other and the last episode had Sam seriously concerned about where Dean's head was at concerning those demon deals, but here he picks a fight with Dean that not only doesn't make sense, is tonally way off, IMO. It's just feels like conflict for the sake of conflict, IMO.  And Dean seems to be far more gung-ho to blow people away than he is about saving them and the way he bites on that bait from Sam just has me thinking it's not really Dean. This episode is also kind of an example of how they tend to get more caught up in a concept and instead of making the concept work in-universe, they bend the universe and the characters to fit the concept.  (Sorry, that actually does make sense inside this nightmare of a brain I have.)

 

I don't love this episode, but I don't think it's as bad as you've described. :)  I think the tone they're going for here is that the Crossroads Demon really f'd with Dean's head talking about John's deal and how much he's suffering in Hell.  So some of it plays for me.  I do think it's poor writing/editing how quickly Sam gives up after getting cut.  I suspect it's because of time constraints but they needed to edit that better.  Also, not a big fan of how Dean blasts that lady in the utility closet.  I get that he's reckless and freaked out right now, but that was a little much.

 

What I really hate about this episode, though, is how Dean draws on the Sergeant. It makes no sense. Sarge is trained military and has a gun pointed at him and is either a cold-blooded killer or scared out of his mind that Dean is a cold-blooded killer, so Dean draws on him? Sarge would have shot him immediately, and Dean would have known that.  Just stupid writing.

 

Maybe you're right that this episode sucks. :)

[DittyDotDot]

Maybe you're right that this episode sucks. :)

 

I do believe that was one of the possible side-effects listed on the warning label. ;)

[sarthaz]

Just suffered through this one again, and I'm fully on-board with your opinion now.  It's the music and the editing that send it over the edge for me.  It's just so poorly made.  I can't stand it.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

Just suffered through this one again, and I'm fully on-board with your opinion now.  It's the music and the editing that send it over the edge for me.  It's just so poorly made.  I can't stand it.

Heh. Welcome to the dark side @sarthaz! It's much nicer to have company when sitting in the dark. ;)

[AwesomO4000]

Well, it does have one of the rare "Bitch" / "Jerk" moments from the series, so I at least liked that part. And the Dean action sequence. And as DittyDotDot said, how Jared and Jensen play the crap out of it.

But the damn mixed messages still bug the crap out of me. For an episode that seemed like it wanted to be anvilicious, the anvils weren't hitting me on the head, but falling off a cliff. Maybe one winged me, but it just made me say "huh?  What the hell message are you trying to give me, here?"

And then by the time we get to the opening sequence of the next episode, I've forgotten, because that's one of my favorite opening sequences. That's how you use music on this show... not whatever the heck it was they did here in this episode.

[catrox14]

Well now I have to rewatch it. But I guess being stuck at home sick a as dog is as good a reason as any

[catrox14]

I dunno. I like the episode myself.

I think it since it came right after the Crossroads Blues when Dean realizes John sold his soul for Dean and that's got him all fucked up. Dean doesn't know whether to trust Sam's visions and he's freaked out about Sam and Sam is freaked about himself and Dean. I didn't have a problem with the Master Sargeant not shooting Dean because Dean bonded with him about John being a Marine. That puts Dean and Sam on the last to kill list for the Master Sargeant.

I can't really blame Dean for thinking they need to be killed because it might affect everyone else. I think Dean was hardcore but couldn't kill  Dwayne because somewhere in his mind he's thinking about having to kill Sam because John gave him that directive and IMO he saw Sam there more than Dwayne.

 Dean just can't tell Sam what John told him. I mean I don't know if I could tell my sibling that our father said I'd have to kill them or save them.

I think the ending was just a setup for s5.

Edited April 29, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I didn't have a problem with any of that either, catrox. And I didn't hate the episode. As I think I said above, I kind of liked that here Sam seemed to be respecting Dean's choice, I just wasn't sure - especially in regards to later on in the series - whether that was supposed to be a good thing or not. And similarly, the mixed messages thing mostly bothers me more now due to the Carver era, because in some ways he took that kind of thing to another level even in the past few years, so looking back on this it bothers me more now than it did back then. There was just a lot of confusing stuff going on here with the "should we or shouldn't we" in terms of killing the bad guys and the answer seemed to be "both?" (Even though that makes no sense, since it's not very practical to unring that bell once they've killed someone.)

In terms of John Shiban episodes though, not one of my favorites from him (he wrote a bunch of good ones though, so tough competition.)

Edited April 30, 2016 by AwesomO4000
Doh - spelled Shiban's name incorrectly. Not cool.

[catrox14]

Saving everyone if you can, killing if you have no other choice. Not wanting to kill if it can be avoided. I don't see Carver era as being much different. That's just me though

[AwesomO4000]

When I said above that the Carver era was what made me look retroactively at this episode as a bit more annoying for being confusing,  I meant confusing messages in general in terms of the Carver era*, not the what to do in terms of the bad guys aspect so much**. Sorry about that, I should've made that more clear, but I've complained about it enough that I forget that it's only in my mind that that is a thing for me concerning Carver. But I also realize that I seem to be more bothered by the mixed messages in recent seasons than other viewers are, and that not everyone sees the same thing in terms of that, so there is that also.

But I also didn't see the saving vs killing message as so cut and dried in this episode. First, we had Sam hesitating to kill the kid because he was a teenager, and despite what the previous discussion in the car concerning Sam's visions seemed to be hinting at, hesitating turned out to be the wrong choice, because the kid turned up later, potentially having infected someone(s) else. So not hesitating would seem to have been the correct choice there. Then we had the other kid in Sam's vision who Sam saw Dean shoot, and the message there was potentially that yes, they should've waited, because it turned out that he wasn't infected, so that would've been a case for waiting was a good idea... But it then turned out that even though he wasn't infected, he was a demon, so actually shooting him would have been a good idea after all, because even if it hadn't killed him - because demon - it might've potentially saved Sarge from being killed by exposing the kid as a demon, so does that mean that the message was that Dean should've shot the kid after all? That is where I get a confusing message from this episode.

That the episode showed that the kid from Sam's vision likely should've been shot not only makes it look like Sam was potentially dangerously wrong, but it made him look rather jerky for questioning Dean in the first place, because Dean's instincts in both cases were correct. Also the almost "shoot first, ask questions later" tactic being in the end the correct choice in both cases - and that it potentially could've saved lives - seemed to be a bit more harsh of a message than we'd seen in the past at this point on this show, but I could be missing something.

* Especially in terms of Carver's - in my opinion - unwillingness to commit to whether or not Sam and Dean's willingness to save each other over everyone else is a good thing or a bad thing, and the continuing - to me - flip-flopping and mixed messages he sends concerning that. I won't go into the examples, because they are too numerous to mention and I've likely covered it all before over in the bitterness thread.
** Which generally what to do concerning the bad guys actually seems to be one of the few not so confusing things in the Carver era.

Edited April 30, 2016 by AwesomO4000
clarification

[sarthaz]

Since I bumped this thread, I'll clarify that I also don't have a problem with Sam and Dean's mindsets in this episode.  At its core, it's the right idea for an episode.  I think I'm just bothered by how poorly written it is, the terrible music, and all the quick-cut editing.  It's all so damn cheesy.

[sarthaz]

Le sigh ... come home from a really rough day, turn on TNT for some comfort SPN, and this shit is on.

[Katy M]

Huh.  I had no idea this episode was so hated.  It was one of my favorites.  My only complaint about it is when "Dwayne" and Sarge are in the truck and he tells whoever he's talking to that there are no loose ends or whatever.  What about the doctor?  Does that mean she was a demon or a Croat the whole time?  Or was the demon just being lazy?  Or did he go back and kill her later?  Inquiring minds like mine want to know.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Huh.  I had no idea this episode was so hated.  It was one of my favorites.  My only complaint about it is when "Dwayne" and Sarge are in the truck and he tells whoever he's talking to that there are no loose ends or whatever.  What about the doctor?  Does that mean she was a demon or a Croat the whole time?  Or was the demon just being lazy?  Or did he go back and kill her later?  Inquiring minds like mine want to know.

I don't think the doctor was a Croat nor a demon. Even though demons are powerful they aren't always the sharpest tools in the shed. IMO, she wasn't considered a threat because she didn't really know what caused the virus, why it did what it did and it went away on it's own. My head canon is she was so tripped out by the whole thing she took another job in a hospital on the other side of the country after all the shenanigans.

[Iju]

Quote

Dean, I'm sick. It's over for me. It doesn't have to be for you. 
DEAN
No?
SAM
No, you can keep going.
DEAN
Who says I want to?
SAM
What?
DEAN crosses to the other wall and pulls a handgun out of his waistband before sitting on the file cabinet.
DEAN
I'm tired, Sam. I'm tired of this job, this life . . . this weight on my shoulders, man. I'm tired of it. 
SAM
So what, so you're just going to give up? You're just gonna lay down and die? Look, Dean, I know this stuff with Dad has —
DEAN
You're wrong. It's not about Dad. I mean, part of it is, sure, but . . 

i just wanna say that i felt i knew this was coming. not this scene but what i predicted about sam and dean, and what would happen if one of them got hurt. there is a small way for sam to live without dean, but there is no way dean is living without sam. it's just impossible, it's not happening. 

and i noticed duane is agent restler from the blacklist! he looked so young omg lmao, i almost completely overlooked him haha.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Iju

[Zipper]

I get some of the dislike about this episode, but overall, I didn't hate it. Totally see how it could be seen as unnecessarily heavier handed than previous brother-angst, but it seems like this has to build to some point. A clarity for both of them. My recall of what comes next in the season is crap (probably too much whiskey the first time around). So if I'm wrong and this step toward understanding their own private terrors and fears wasn't necessary, I'll take it back. 

The Schoolhouse Rock joke had me giggle. Dean's line, "You are a handsome devil," delivered with a perfect twinkle. The "You don't shut your pie hole, I just might" line. And I really enjoyed the set, the grey, damp look of it all, with fog blowing through. The only time the sun seemed to peep through was as Dean drove toward the roadblock at the edge of town, but there was still a bit of mist/fog.  It was very eery, and I appreciate that given the actual, blood curdling horror of a virus that causes an entire town to wipe itself out by killing each other. 

The insight to Dean's exhaustion, now that he has more reason to believe his suspicion about John's sacrifice, and the possibility that he sees he and Sam winding up in similar places, having to make life/death choices for each other, thus leaving one of them alone... I liked that moment, except to the extent to which it suggests that in the VERY short time we've been with the brothers, Dean is ready to cash it in over a virus, when they have some bombs to get out of town, he's got 3+ hours until Sam turns, they have all kinds of possible resources once they hit cell phone coverage 40 miles away, and NEITHER brother thought about the possibility of Sam being immune, given he was immune to Andy the mind-controller. That was where it rang a bit falsely desperate to me.

[Katy M]

38 minutes ago, Zipper said:

Dean is ready to cash it in over a virus, when they have some bombs to get out of town, he's got 3+ hours until Sam turns, they have all kinds of possible resources once they hit cell phone coverage 40 miles away, and NEITHER brother thought about the possibility of Sam being immune, given he was immune to Andy the mind-controller. That was where it rang a bit falsely desperate to me.

TBH, it would have never occurred to me to think that Sam was immune.  He was immune to Andy's mind thing because Andy's mind thing was psychic and Sam was psychic, so that made sense.  Nothing of that would translate to Sam being immune to a demonic virus.  Especially since they did not yet know what they find out at the end of the season.  And, since this was a virus that nobody had ever heard of before, they wouldn't have had all kinds of resources. Regular hospitals couldn't help.  They were in Oregon, I doubt Bobby could have been any help before Sam turned.  They dripped blood into Beverly right before Sam and Dean rescued her and she had turned before Dean got back from his attempt to leave town.  And, is Sam coming with them?  That would be stupid to impose him on the rest of the world when the threat was contained to this one town for the time being.  If he's left behind, he's really toast, with the Croats that are already there (since at the time it wasn't known they had disappeared) and the fact that they would have to get back through them with some kind of cure.  Time would be out way before any of that happened. 

[Zipper]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

They were in Oregon, I doubt Bobby could have been any help before Sam turned.  They dripped blood into Beverly right before Sam and Dean rescued her and she had turned before Dean got back from his attempt to leave town.  And, is Sam coming with them?  That would be stupid to impose him on the rest of the world when the threat was contained to this one town for the time being. 

Thanks for that perspective. I hear you. The time jumps in this episode felt significant to me. The doc said it took a few hours for the virus to mutate. IIRC, they cleared Dwayne about 3 hours after his alleged exposure, which seemed to occur during the one-hour show (small town, he's supposed to be running for his life, etc.). Then, they come back one scene after discovering the town was empty, and it's been 5 hours since Sam's exposure. All they really needed to do was get to cell service, 40 miles away, with Sam, to have a chance. There's more than one working car in the town, so they stick Sam in a car, tie him up, and put a gun on him. He freaks, he dies. With Dean and a Marine Corps Master Sergeant, I think they could come up with a plan of attack involving two cars, lots of ammo, and a pile of bombs. They don't even have to film that getaway, because all the Croatoans are gone. 

I'm probably having a pragmatic reaction to the emotional stuff, but I question why there seemed to be no options available, given my read on the timing the show gave us about the virus. Without acknowledging any potential option, Dean made his way to the very real risk of mutual destruction, and that seemed like a pretty big jump in terms of his mental state.  Even with his renewed belief that John sacrificed for him-- unless maybe that's the point, he has internalized that sacrifice to the point that he doesn't see any way out and he doesn't want he or Sam to be alone at the end. 

Also, Sam has only had visions where Yellow Eyes is the mixmaster, that's why I thought about immunity the moment the doc said she thought it was sulphur in the blood sample.

[ILoveReading]

I really liked Sarge.  I wouldn't have minded seeing more of him.

"You have a neighbor named Mr. Rogers."

"Not anymore."

Makes me laugh every time.

[Katy M]

56 minutes ago, Zipper said:

Thanks for that perspective. I hear you. The time jumps in this episode felt significant to me. The doc said it took a few hours for the virus to mutate. IIRC, they cleared Dwayne about 3 hours after his alleged exposure, which seemed to occur during the one-hour show (small town, he's supposed to be running for his life, etc.). Then, they come back one scene after discovering the town was empty, and it's been 5 hours since Sam's exposure. All they really needed to do was get to cell service, 40 miles away, with Sam, to have a chance. There's more than one working car in the town, so they stick Sam in a car, tie him up, and put a gun on him. He freaks, he dies. With Dean and a Marine Corps Master Sergeant, I think they could come up with a plan of attack involving two cars, lots of ammo, and a pile of bombs. They don't even have to film that getaway, because all the Croatoans are gone. 

But, that would mean it took Dean a few hours to get to the edge of town and get turned back.  Plus, I still don't know what good a phone call would have done.  Ellen nor Bobby (really their only contacts at this point) would have a cure off the top of their heads.  This would take days of research.  Not hours.  

I think this is one of those things that isn't really all that important, though. It was more that Dean couldn't handle what was going on re: the aftermath of John's death.

[OOO]

On 7/12/2014 at 7:52 AM, DittyDotDot said:

WARNING: The following may contain a lot of unhappy thoughts and feelings about this episode. If you are a lover of this episode, you should avoid reading the following paragraphs. These thoughts and feelings should be kept out of reach of small children and possibly also taken in small doses. Adults should consult their own conscious for proper dosage. Side effects can include: Bouts of anger in support of the episode, bouts of anger against the episode and/or could also induce mood swings because I've thoroughly changed your mind. Either way, they may not be fun to read.

Anyway, I've never cared for the pointless and contrived and entirely ridiculous amount of grimness and angst in this episode. It feels so out of tone and is so jarring to me that I would like to pretend it doesn't exist, but sadly they keep brining it back up and reminding me. It really struck me last night that this episode would actually fit tonally into whatever it is they seem to be doing the last couple of years. It's like Carver and Co. watched this episode and said "this is the show we want to make."  Well, Carver and Co., it's not the show I care to see. And I now understand why it is that some folks blame a lot of the current tonal shift and problems with the show on Bob Singer--he's the only one still around, but also he directed this episode and set that stupid tone.

First, Sam and Dean both feel out of character here. Starting with the bickering in the car (I say bickering rather than bantering because that's what it is). All season they have both been nothing but supportive of each other and the last episode had Sam seriously concerned about where Dean's head was at concerning those demon deals, but here he picks a fight with Dean that not only doesn't make sense, is tonally way off, IMO. It's just feels like conflict for the sake of conflict, IMO.  And Dean seems to be far more gung-ho to blow people away than he is about saving them and the way he bites on that bait from Sam just has me thinking it's not really Dean. This episode is also kind of an example of how they tend to get more caught up in a concept and instead of making the concept work in-universe, they bend the universe and the characters to fit the concept.  (Sorry, that actually does make sense inside this nightmare of a brain I have.)

Then we have the fact that I still don't really understand what Roanoke really has to do with the demon virus...was Roanoke another testing grounds for a previous Sam? If they had never brought up the Croatoan virus again, I could have wanked this all away, but what comes later makes this even more nonsensical...I don't want to have to put it all under spoiler tags and it's really not that important anyway, so I'll just move on. It also makes no sense that doctor just stands around shrugging throughout the entire episode. She doesn't seem to be concerned or trying to help them or really doing anything more than saying "I don't know". What kind of doctor doesn't at least try to find a cure before she allows some random stranger to start shooting her patients. I don't know, but it all seems so contrived to me.

I can't even bring myself to discuss the two scenes of talking about their feelings. I do think that Jensen and Jared both up their game and put out great performances, though. It's just that I could have lived without a lot of the angst here and is probably more due to how I think they have way overused them lately that drags these scenes down retrospectively. And again they feel a bit tonally off to me.

So, there are two things that I find actually are enjoyable to watch here. First, that entire scene where Dean comes up to the roadblock and finishes with Dean driving recklessly away. Very well shot action sequence and I love how Dean is sitting in the car and you can see him working out his options from the moment he stops and sees that kid that Sam failed to "ventilate." (Which brings up another thing about this episode that bugs me...some very weird language choices, it's like they were trying to talk as the young people say...) Secondly--I like the scene with the Master Sargent and Dean driving in the car pointing their weapons at each other.

I did try to end it on a positive, hope that helps with any of the negative side effects. 😉

How has no one on the internet (in quite a few search attempts with synonymous words for cheesy and dramatic) to this day, never commented on how all of a sudden, halfway through the episode, when the scene Sam predicted happens for real, they start doing novella/soap opera lighting and slow-zoom ins on the doctor and Sargent and nurse's faces when Dean is going to shoot? And all that soap opera filmed scene at the end when they are insanely dramatic, romantic, and Dean doing the slow reveal of the secret he JUST got through saying he wouldn't tell, of course then giving every obvious teaser that would make Sam bug him until he talked. So wierd and not like any episode before it!

[The Companion]

I don't understand how a pseudo zombie/virus outbreak episode was so boring, but there you go. Part of it was that the infected just sort of walked around. They tried to infect others and did so violently, but then they just went about their business. It wasn't clear how much of them was even lost when not in infect mode. They had their memories and could carry on conversations. So becoming one wasn't as terrifying as most variations of this story are. They could have at least done us a solid and used the molotov cocktails. A little Jason Mendoza problem solving.

Prior posters nailed most of my feelings but I do want to make fun of recently arrested Dean for coming upon a bloody car and immediately picking up the potential murder weapon. 

I did enjoy "Have you seen my parents?" "Awkward."