S15.E05: Proverbs 17:3

[Jediknight]

11 hours ago, bethy said:

Even Lilith's skirt/boots/scarf seemed jarring to me. I mean, it's not like I would have expected Bender-level grime from the werewolves, but maybe a fisherman's sweater that didn't look freshly opened from an L.L. Bean delivery? Or a girl fresh out of the hospital maybe not perfectly made up and outfitted? Though I guess Lilith was supposedly going to seduce(?) Dean? I don't know.

Yep, it was because she was supposed to seduce Dean.  But she guessed it went out the window at the reveal of her being Lilith.  I think she gave up too easily, she still should have given it a shot.  What's the harm in trying?  It's the end of days, she's pretty, Dean may have went for it.

[juppschmitz]

2 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Rooting for Amara, as in the end of the world?

Actually, I was in camp Amara from the moment she showed an interest in Dean.

I was, even in the first episode she appeared, (storytelling wise) really pretty sure that there was going to be a twist where her connection with Dean was going to make her NOT destroy the world.

And when Chuck was for the first time (I think) proven to be God in the episode with the amulet I was also really pretty sure that all he was interested in was basically saving his own bacon. And his creation, but not insofar as he was compassionate, but because it was his favourite toy.

[Shannonsspirit]

6 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Actually, I was in camp Amara from the moment she showed an interest in Dean.

I was, even in the first episode she appeared, (storytelling wise) really pretty sure that there was going to be a twist where her connection with Dean was going to make her NOT destroy the world.

And when Chuck was for the first time (I think) proven to be God in the episode with the amulet I was also really pretty sure that all he was interested in was basically saving his own bacon. And his creation, but not insofar as he was compassionate, but because it was his favourite toy.

I am just in the middle of a little rewatch of Season 11, Chitters, in fact. Don't Call Me Shurley is next.

I am curious; if you explain what in this episode is explicitly said, done, or implied through words or actions that could lead to the conclusion that humanity is a "toy" favorite or otherwise? 

In the following episode, when Dean and Chuck were in the playground; but, that was in context of Dean convincing Chuck that surrendering to Amara to save humanity would not satisfy her. That she would kill him and destroy the world. "Save his own bacon."  ?!   Chuck was going to sacrifice himself and let Amara lock him away, until Dean made him realize that she was relentless and that Chuck needed to fight.

Rooting for Amara and rooting for Amara's redemption are not the same thing. Regardless of her connection to Dean, which led to her ultimately embracing family, she killed thousands upon thousands in fogs. She sucked out souls turning teenagers into muderers, wife killing husband, baby sitter slaughtering a family. People slaughtered while praying in churches and gathering in a park.

[juppschmitz]

55 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I am just in the middle of a little rewatch of Season 11, Chitters, in fact. Don't Call Me Shurley is next.

I am curious; if you explain what in this episode is explicitly said, done, or implied through words or actions that could lead to the conclusion that humanity is a "toy" favorite or otherwise? 

In the following episode, when Dean and Chuck were in the playground; but, that was in context of Dean convincing Chuck that surrendering to Amara to save humanity would not satisfy her. That she would kill him and destroy the world. "Save his own bacon."  ?!   Chuck was going to sacrifice himself and let Amara lock him away, until Dean made him realize that she was relentless and that Chuck needed to fight.

Rooting for Amara and rooting for Amara's redemption are not the same thing. Regardless of her connection to Dean, which led to her ultimately embracing family, she killed thousands upon thousands in fogs. She sucked out souls turning teenagers into muderers, wife killing husband, baby sitter slaughtering a family. People slaughtered while praying in churches and gathering in a park.

Just a hunch 🤷🏼‍♀️

Was right, though. 

[Shannonsspirit]

16 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Just a hunch 🤷🏼‍♀️

Was right, though. 

If you embrace the retcon of, well, everything; so that years of Supernatural can end as a meta joke, with a bitter showrunner as God. Ok. Enjoy.

[juppschmitz]

3 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

If you embrace the retcon of, well, everything; so that years of Supernatural can end as a meta joke, with a bitter showrunner as God. Ok. Enjoy.

I didn't say I like it, I just said I was right.

[Shannonsspirit]

2 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

I didn't say I like it, I just said I was right.

A few days ago, you said that season 11 serves as a finale and refuse to acknowledge Dabb. So, I'm confused as to how you now accept the 180° And when I asked you to clarify the toy reference. You wouldn't and called it a hunch. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Shannonsspirit

[juppschmitz]

1 hour ago, Shannonsspirit said:

A few days ago, you said that season 11 serves as a finale and refuse to acknowledge Dabb. So, I'm confused as to how you now accept the 180° And when I asked you to clarify the toy reference. You wouldn't and called it a hunch. 

First of all I'm flattered that you remember my post from a few days ago 😄

Just because I decided that for me SPN is complete with the ending of season 11 doesn't mean that the following seasons didn't actually happen? And while they aren't part of MY personal canon they still exist.

As to the "toy" aspect of Chuck's creation that's my interpretation of what he says to Metatron in "Don't Call  Me Shurley". He did say he wanted to show Amara there could be something more, better than them, so he created life. She kept destroying, he kept rebuilding. Just like normal siblings with a tower of building blocks. Once he'd locked her up he was free to play with his shiny new "toy" uninterruptedly. He didn't need to do this anymore FOR AMARA, but at this point it was something to keep himself amused.

And for example, turning the amulet on and off as he fancies is nothing more than amusing himself with his "toy".

Feel free to disagree.

[Shannonsspirit]

17 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

First of all I'm flattered that you remember my post from a few days ago 😄

Just because I decided that for me SPN is complete with the ending of season 11 doesn't mean that the following seasons didn't actually happen? And while they aren't part of MY personal canon they still exist.

As to the "toy" aspect of Chuck's creation that's my interpretation of what he says to Metatron in "Don't Call  Me Shurley". He did say he wanted to show Amara there could be something more, better than them, so he created life. She kept destroying, he kept rebuilding. Just like normal siblings with a tower of building blocks. Once he'd locked her up he was free to play with his shiny new "toy" uninterruptedly. He didn't need to do this anymore FOR AMARA, but at this point it was something to keep himself amused.

And for example, turning the amulet on and off as he fancies is nothing more than amusing himself with his "toy".

Feel free to disagree.

Your name stands out. I remember people who say interesting things.

Obviously, I am very unhappy with this change that I believe to be without foundation, and undermines major themes of the long, long story. I just finished Don't Call Me Shurley. I find no duplicity or insincerity.

I'm not looking to disagree. I was looking for an answer. We don't need to have the same perception.

Take care and goodnight 

[juppschmitz]

3 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Your name stands out. I remember people who say interesting things.

Obviously, I am very unhappy with this change that I believe to be without foundation, and undermines major themes of the long, long story. I just finished Don't Call Me Shurley. I find no duplicity or insincerity.

I'm not looking to disagree. I was looking for an answer. We don't need to have the same perception.

Take care and goodnight 

Even back in the early seasons, when Chuck being God was nothing more than mere speculation I hated that whole idea with a fiery passion. I've loved Chuck-the-clueless, adorable prophet. 

To make God a character in this series was a bad, bad writing decision, and look where it lead.

Thanks for your good-night wishes, but I'm only half-way through my work day 😄

You sleep tight though, and don't let the bed bugs bite 😄

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, juppschmitz said:

Even back in the early seasons, when Chuck being God was nothing more than mere speculation I hated that whole idea with a fiery passion. I've loved Chuck-the-clueless, adorable prophet. 

To make God a character in this series was a bad, bad writing decision, and look where it lead.

I love your post with the heat of a thousand suns.

[Bali]

On 11/14/2019 at 9:28 PM, Castiels Cat said:

There was a movie starring Will Farrell which I never saw in which he was the character in a book and he could hear the narration I think.

As was mentioned: Stranger Than Fiction. I don't care for Will Farrell, but I LOVE this movie. It is one of my favorites.

On 11/14/2019 at 9:16 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

The ghost pepper bit was amusing. 

I love funny Dean, so I loved the ghost pepper. I also love that Dean can still be a bit out of it do things like chow down on ghost pepper jerky then live to regret it. I know a lot of people who have underestimated the power of the ghost pepper.

On 11/14/2019 at 9:42 PM, Demian said:

Thanks!  Why does the Mark of Cain on this show look like a "7" with squiggles above it?  Or is that never explained?  And why does the Mark of Cain appear on his forearm, instead of on his forehead, as Biblical lore dictates?

I think they veered from Biblical lore when they gave God a sister. Or possibly before then when they decided that God is some writer dude named Chuck. I'm also not really sure how up on the Bible the current regime is. 

On 11/14/2019 at 9:46 PM, ILoveReading said:

One other interesting thing, (but will probably go nowhere) is when Lilth said she couldn't kill Dean.   She could torture him and make him wish for death, but she needed him alive.  So Chuck might have plans for him.  But considering everything Yockey's last episode set up and took away, I can't even be sure Dabb knows he included that. 

I sort of take it that Chuck wants one of the brothers to kill the other. That is the "Glory" story that will get all of the feels. NOT! He's determined. Probably since, he couldn't off his sister, so he can play out his sibling murder story with the Winchesters. Who are finally talking to each other, so maybe this won't happen. 

Overall, I enjoyed this episode. There were some answers. And the brothers are talking- FINALLY. It always goes better when the brothers are talking. Pretty certain they are going to need Amara for the ending of this one. Lilith is one blast from the past that I could have lived without rather easily. But hey- it's one more week that Jodi, Donna and Garth are still alive, so there's that. 

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, Bali said:

I love funny Dean, so I loved the ghost pepper. I also love that Dean can still be a bit out of it do things like chow down on ghost pepper jerky then live to regret it. I know a lot of people who have underestimated the power of the ghost pepper.

I think this worked because Jensen really sold it. The slow-burn (literally) realization that he done f*cked up, but couldn't let little bro see that. I don't love most of the slapstick-like things they have him do, but this was funny to me because I've been there.

[Bali]

On 11/14/2019 at 11:15 PM, DeeDee79 said:

Probably because you actually live in the area that the story is supposedly taking place in and it’s irritating when people don’t do their research before basing their story setting in said area. Kind of like my outrage when stories that are set in NJ feature nothing but inhabitants that act like Soprano or Jersey Shore rejects as if the entire state is made up people that behave that way. 😡

Or my irritation when they show snow covered mountains in Indiana. That happens a lot. 

On 11/15/2019 at 7:10 AM, Shannonsspirit said:

When this retcon of Chuck occurred, I despised it for all reasons, I tire of even mentioning anymore. But I'll be damned if I'm going to spend another minute on, "I'm sitting in a laundry room, reading about myself, sitting in a laundry room." It was funny then, Chuck was a helpful drunken phrophet, who became a God who genuinely cared about humanity and Sam and Dean. He just wanted everyone to grow. Now, he is a mustache twirling super villain. I don't want to watch a Marvel movie.

Please don't insult Marvel movies like that.

[Castiels Cat]

14 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Response to Castiel's Cat:

Rooting for Amara, as in the end of the world?

Chuck stepped aside to let his baby grow and mature into responsible guardians of the Earth and each other, when repeated teaching and punishing proved ineffective. The creator of souls, the moral compass that combines compassion, conscience, empathy and remorse to balance free will is an evil, bored, egotistical, manipulative psychopath!? And you saw and believed that, all along while rooting for the Darkness, who wished only to destroy?

That wasn't the story that I saw.  That was the cover story that was planted. Chuck and Amara did not get along. I am going with... because he was a selfish, self absorbed jerk only interested in self aggrandizement which is more or less what she said all along. He got mad at her and locked her up with the help of his creations and spread a story about how horrible she was so no one would let her out and crestex a plague that would be released when she was released so everyone would know she was bad. It worked.

Yes. She was powerful and extremely angry when she was released and there was some collateral damage however all she wanted was for Chuck to talk to her and apologize.

This was always my interpretation of the season. All of the notes were there. The finale made sense and the dialogue in episode 15:2 made sense. 

13 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Yep, it was because she was supposed to seduce Dean.  But she guessed it went out the window at the reveal of her being Lilith.  I think she gave up too easily, she still should have given it a shot.  What's the harm in trying?  It's the end of days, she's pretty, Dean may have went for it.

He looked like it was still a go.

[Castiels Cat]

12 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Actually, I was in camp Amara from the moment she showed an interest in Dean.

I was, even in the first episode she appeared, (storytelling wise) really pretty sure that there was going to be a twist where her connection with Dean was going to make her NOT destroy the world.

And when Chuck was for the first time (I think) proven to be God in the episode with the amulet I was also really pretty sure that all he was interested in was basically saving his own bacon. And his creation, but not insofar as he was compassionate, but because it was his favourite toy.

I knew Amara was not bad all season. Her backstory was propaganda by God. She was locked up for standing up to him. Dean knew it in his gut. The writing was pretty clear if you bothered to look for it but then I was not hung up on Sam getting revenge so perhaps it was easier for me to see. It was obvious to me in the premier where it was going.

Was she angry. Yes. Did she need to understand humanity and gain perspective. Yes.

Chuck has always been a manipulative, lying jerk and they had it down in season 11. I don't think it's a retcon.

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think this worked because Jensen really sold it. The slow-burn (literally) realization that he done f*cked up, but couldn't let little bro see that. I don't love most of the slapstick-like things they have him do, but this was funny to me because I've been there.

For better or worse Dean and food is a thing. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it's tiresome. Sometimes it's irksome.

Maybe fans need to do a contest for worst writing on the CW and just let them know they are best at something.

2 hours ago, Bali said:

Or my irritation when they show snow covered mountains in Indiana. That happens a lot. 

Please don't insult Marvel movies like that.

I also live in flat Indiana!

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, Bali said:

As was mentioned: Stranger Than Fiction. I don't care for Will Farrell, but I LOVE this movie. It is one of my favorites.

I love funny Dean, so I loved the ghost pepper. I also love that Dean can still be a bit out of it do things like chow down on ghost pepper jerky then live to regret it. I know a lot of people who have underestimated the power of the ghost pepper.

I think they veered from Biblical lore when they gave God a sister. Or possibly before then when they decided that God is some writer dude named Chuck. I'm also not really sure how up on the Bible the current regime is. 

I sort of take it that Chuck wants one of the brothers to kill the other. That is the "Glory" story that will get all of the feels. NOT! He's determined. Probably since, he couldn't off his sister, so he can play out his sibling murder story with the Winchesters. Who are finally talking to each other, so maybe this won't happen. 

Overall, I enjoyed this episode. There were some answers. And the brothers are talking- FINALLY. It always goes better when the brothers are talking. Pretty certain they are going to need Amara for the ending of this one. Lilith is one blast from the past that I could have lived without rather easily. But hey- it's one more week that Jodi, Donna and Garth are still alive, so there's that. 

I think Lilith is just a clue that Chuck is reworking season 5 which was the ending that was changed when the Apocalypse didn't happen and one brother did not kill the other and also changed because the show didn't end.

The MoC looks like the jaw of an ass I believe which is the first blade weapon...  also I think what Cain used to murder Abel at least in the show. It's been a while... As someone else pointed out Abel was consorting with Lucifer so Cain was saving him...

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

First of all I'm flattered that you remember my post from a few days ago 😄

Just because I decided that for me SPN is complete with the ending of season 11 doesn't mean that the following seasons didn't actually happen? And while they aren't part of MY personal canon they still exist.

As to the "toy" aspect of Chuck's creation that's my interpretation of what he says to Metatron in "Don't Call  Me Shurley". He did say he wanted to show Amara there could be something more, better than them, so he created life. She kept destroying, he kept rebuilding. Just like normal siblings with a tower of building blocks. Once he'd locked her up he was free to play with his shiny new "toy" uninterruptedly. He didn't need to do this anymore FOR AMARA, but at this point it was something to keep himself amused.

And for example, turning the amulet on and off as he fancies is nothing more than amusing himself with his "toy".

Feel free to disagree.

Chuck lies.

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Just a hunch 🤷🏼‍♀️

Was right, though. 

Bravo. My "hunches" tend to be right too. Amara's speech in 15:2 completely supports my interpretation of s 11 and I predicted that they were setting Dean up to say yes to Michael in s 12 and knew it by s 13.

I also never liked Chuck once it was Clear he was God. As soon as he showed up in Fan Fiction I thought ...fck...  he's God and that makes him the biggest dick.

Most people disagree with my interpretations however.

[Bali]

6 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I think Lilith is just a clue that Chuck is reworking season 5 which was the ending that was changed when the Apocalypse didn't happen and one brother did not kill the other and also changed because the show didn't end.

The MoC looks like the jaw of an ass I believe which is the first blade weapon...  also I think what Cain used to murder Abel at least in the show. It's been a while... As someone else pointed out Abel was consorting with Lucifer so Cain was saving him...

My random thoughts are jumping around too much today.  Demian asked a question about the Mark of Cain on the show not being the same as Biblical Lore. My thought is that the show went off Biblical Lore when they gave God a sister. Or made God a wimpy writer dude named Chuck.

I understand that Chuck is reworking Season 5. I just could live without Lilith or basically the rework of Season 5. And the rework is a bit deeper than that. Chuck the writer thinks people love angst. It isn't true. People, especially people who read, enjoy character driven books, not just action driven books. Look at the number of comments of like:

1. Oh Joy- Sam's all sad.
2.  Oh goodie- Dean's sad this week.
3.  Who will be sad next week?
4.  The flipflopping of anger.

I could go on, but you get me. People didn't start watching this show to watch anyone be full on sad/depressed/angry all of the time. They started because of Hunting things and the relationship between the brothers. It isn't about what Dabb/Chuck seems to think it's about. 

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, Bali said:

My random thoughts are jumping around too much today.  Demian asked a question about the Mark of Cain on the show not being the same as Biblical Lore. My thought is that the show went off Biblical Lore when they gave God a sister. Or made God a wimpy writer dude named Chuck.

I understand that Chuck is reworking Season 5. I just could live without Lilith or basically the rework of Season 5. And the rework is a bit deeper than that. Chuck the writer thinks people love angst. It isn't true. People, especially people who read, enjoy character driven books, not just action driven books. Look at the number of comments of like:

1. Oh Joy- Sam's all sad.
2.  Oh goodie- Dean's sad this week.
3.  Who will be sad next week?
4.  The flipflopping of anger.

I could go on, but you get me. People didn't start watching this show to watch anyone be full on sad/depressed/angry all of the time. They started because of Hunting things and the relationship between the brothers. It isn't about what Dabb/Chuck seems to think it's about. 

Chuck is writing very special motw with lessons plus the endgame drafts. The brothers are freaking because they do not have a plan and two people died and Cas is in the wind. It's realistic to be freaked. They have completely lost their A team in the last couple of years.

The real writers are not really good enough to carry this meta story within a story overcthe longterm let alone one episode. Previously they did this for standalone episodes here and there. They are not as talented as the earlier writers either. And Chuck has lost it apparently. That's what we learned in episode 4.

It's a sad way to end the series. 

[Bali]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Chuck is writing very special motw with lessons plus the endgame drafts. The brothers are freaking because they do not have a plan and two people died and Cas is in the wind. It's realistic to be freaked. They have completely lost their A team in the last couple of years.

The real writers are not really good enough to carry this meta story within a story overcthe longterm let alone one episode. Previously they did this for standalone episodes here and there. They are not as talented as the earlier writers either. And Chuck has lost it apparently. That's what we learned in episode 4.

It's a sad way to end the series. 

I agree it is a very sad way to end the series. The real writers don't seem to have a clue about what made people start watching in the first place. There is so much more to it than, "Season 5 was good." The first five seasons lead to one place. There were arcs inside arcs. There were coherent stories. We stayed because that continued. We're here now, basically because the good old days were so good we want to see it to the end. Kind of like how sometimes, you start a movie, realize it isn't very good, but keep going because, "I've made it this far, I can finish." (And NO- I did NOT think that way about this show until the British Men of Letters appeared.)

[Castiels Cat]

7 minutes ago, Bali said:

I agree it is a very sad way to end the series. The real writers don't seem to have a clue about what made people start watching in the first place. There is so much more to it than, "Season 5 was good." The first five seasons lead to one place. There were arcs inside arcs. There were coherent stories. We stayed because that continued. We're here now, basically because the good old days were so good we want to see it to the end. Kind of like how sometimes, you start a movie, realize it isn't very good, but keep going because, "I've made it this far, I can finish." (And NO- I did NOT think that way about this show until the British Men of Letters appeared.)

S 12 was a slog. S 13 was better for me because it was a tragic heroic arc for Dean resulting in a tragic fall when he chose to say yes to Michael and when he chose to travel worlds to save Mary. Both acts had him prioritize family over the greater Good. It was his going dark. Sympathetic to be sure but not great decisions. Of course they blew it in s 14 by turning Michael into a nothing burger when he had the potential to be the biggest big bad ever. His dialogue in Nihilism was disturbing, chilling and frightening.  Weaponized monsters that could easily multiple were a great army.

These writers are idiots. No wonder Jensen pulled the plug.

[takalotti]

3 hours ago, Bali said:

Overall, I enjoyed this episode. There were some answers. And the brothers are talking- FINALLY. It always goes better when the brothers are talking. Pretty certain they are going to need Amara for the ending of this one. Lilith is one blast from the past that I could have lived without rather easily. But hey- it's one more week that Jodi, Donna and Garth are still alive, so there's that. 

Wait a tick. Where IS Garth? Last I remember, he was in Baby’s trunk. I don’t remember them saying what they did with him while suped up on Michael’s concoction, or confirmation that his rabidness disappeared once Michael went poof such that he could be freed. 

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, takalotti said:

Wait a tick. Where IS Garth? Last I remember, he was in Baby’s trunk. I don’t remember them saying what they did with him while suped up on Michael’s concoction, or confirmation that his rabidness disappeared once Michael went poof such that he could be freed. 

I think that storyline went pouf with Michael. They sent their favorite hunter to check on him... the one Michael!Rowena smited in slo-mo... Maggie?... to check on him and presumably release him.

[Bali]

20 minutes ago, takalotti said:

Wait a tick. Where IS Garth? Last I remember, he was in Baby’s trunk. I don’t remember them saying what they did with him while suped up on Michael’s concoction, or confirmation that his rabidness disappeared once Michael went poof such that he could be freed. 

There is no Garth. There is only Zuul.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, Bali said:

Or my irritation when they show snow covered mountains in Indiana. That happens a lot. 

Please don't insult Marvel movies like that.

I forgot to ask... where in Indiana?

37 minutes ago, Bali said:

There is no Garth. There is only Zuul.

Dean is my keymaster... just saying. 

And yes there is nothing that time travel cannot fix or mess up... but Loki and a tesseract are running around somewhere so all is good with the world and I knew Ant Man in the quantum realm would save the day! 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Bali]

Hamilton County.

[Castiels Cat]

8 minutes ago, Bali said:

Hamilton County.

Indy. Practically neighbors.

[Shannonsspirit]

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

That wasn't the story that I saw.  That was the cover story that was planted. Chuck and Amara did not get along. I am going with... because he was a selfish, self absorbed jerk only interested in self aggrandizement which is more or less what she said all along. He got mad at her and locked her up with the help of his creations and spread a story about how horrible she was so no one would let her out and crestex a plague that would be released when she was released so everyone would know she was bad. It worked.

Yes. She was powerful and extremely angry when she was released and there was some collateral damage however all she wanted was for Chuck to talk to her and apologize.

This was always my interpretation of the season. All of the notes were there. The finale made sense and the dialogue in episode 15:2 made sense. 

He looked like it was still a go.

11 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Even back in the early seasons, when Chuck being God was nothing more than mere speculation I hated that whole idea with a fiery passion. I've loved Chuck-the-clueless, adorable prophet. 

To make God a character in this series was a bad, bad writing decision, and look where it lead.

Thanks for your good-night wishes, but I'm only half-way through my work day 😄

You sleep tight though, and don't let the bed bugs bite 😄

You are very gracious.

[juppschmitz]

(@Shannonsspirit - taking this to All episodes...)

[Commando Cody]

15 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Even back in the early seasons, when Chuck being God was nothing more than mere speculation I hated that whole idea with a fiery passion. I've loved Chuck-the-clueless, adorable prophet. 

To make God a character in this series was a bad, bad writing decision, and look where it lead.

I never liked the idea of Chuck as God either.  I was willing to accept that he was God, but I will not believe that he was God the whole time.  I could see Chuck being taken over later on, but I want to believe he was still Chuck the prophet in the early episodes. 

The only part of this episode I liked was the ghost pepper jerky.  Is that something Sam likes? Why would he buy it?  The age jokes didn't work as Dean hasn't changed back into Chad Everett in any way at all. 

I found Lilith's return as disappointing.  I didn't like the actress either.  She was kind of run of the mill to me.  Can God not touch the gun?  Why did he have to send a lackey to retrieve it for him?  What was it doing in the glove compartment?  They keep everything else in the warded trunk, but they put something that valuable in the glove compartment?  If it was that easy to reach into the car, anyone could have taken it.  Lilith was an evil slice and dicer.  New Lilith doesn't seem to have this same temperament.  

That slow draw back of the camera, in the end scene of the curtains - making it look like Sam and Dean are in a play - was pretty telling.  

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Commando Cody said:

I never liked the idea of Chuck as God either.  I was willing to accept that he was God, but I will not believe that he was God the whole time.  I could see Chuck being taken over later on, but I want to believe he was still Chuck the prophet in the early episodes. 

The only part of this episode I liked was the ghost pepper jerky.  Is that something Sam likes? Why would he buy it?  The age jokes didn't work as Dean hasn't changed back into Chad Everett in any way at all. 

I found Lilith's return as disappointing.  I didn't like the actress either.  She was kind of run of the mill to me.  Can God not touch the gun?  Why did he have to send a lackey to retrieve it for him?  What was it doing in the glove compartment?  They keep everything else in the warded trunk, but they put something that valuable in the glove compartment?  If it was that easy to reach into the car, anyone could have taken it.  Lilith was an evil slice and dicer.  New Lilith doesn't seem to have this same temperament.  

That slow draw back of the camera, in the end scene of the curtains - making it look like Sam and Dean are in a play - was pretty telling.  

God can be killed with the gun... that's why he didn't come for it although that would end everything per the end of s 11.

[AwesomO4000]

On 11/16/2019 at 4:06 PM, Castiels Cat said:

The world ends if God dies. This was a plot point in a 11. They went to a bar to drink away their depression.  Killing Amara by exploding Dean whilst Chick faded away meant the end of everything. Dean saved the world with his beautiful speech and family therapy.

Per s 11, killing God ends everything. They can lock him away.

Taken to the All episodes thread...

[Demian]

On 11/17/2019 at 3:18 PM, Castiels Cat said:

On 11/15/2019 at 11:23 PM, Demian said:

Understood.  But I feel some sort of bizarre need to see it through its conclusion, nevertheless. So, please forgive my absolutely stupid questions in advance.

No thanks.

TNT has a 3 hour block weekday mornings.

I don't turn my TV on until about 3 in the afternoon, but thanks for the suggestion!

Also, I'm aware of the fact that all seasons are currently available on Netflix, so there's that, as well.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Demian

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Demian said:

I don't turn my TV on until about 3 in the afternoon, but thanks for the suggestion!

Also, I'm aware of the fact that all seasons are currently available on Netflix, so there's that, as well.

I think Netflix has through s 11. Watching at least 1-5 would be exciting and helpful.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I think Netflix has through s 11. Watching at least 1-5 would be exciting and helpful.

Netflix actually has seasons 1-14.

[Castiels Cat]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Netflix actually has seasons 1-14.

Oh good! I don't know why I thought it was only 11... maybe I haven't checked in a while?

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Oh good! I don't know why I thought it was only 11... maybe I haven't checked in a while?

They add the latest season almost immediately after it wraps up on The CW.

Edited November 21, 2019 by DeeDee79

[Casseiopeia]

Okay this girl got a signed script (Proverbs) from Misha...don't know why and she came across this deleted scene.  I don't know if this would have added to the episode or not but it might have explained Sam looking at messages from Cas at the beginning and Dean talking about it at the end of the episode.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

35 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Okay this girl got a signed script (Proverbs) from Misha...don't know why and she came across this deleted scene.  I don't know if this would have added to the episode or not but it might have explained Sam looking at messages from Cas at the beginning and Dean talking about it at the end of the episode.

 

I always wonder how to take these cut scenes. Obviously it was the writer's intention that they be part of the story, so things that happen outside these scenes are, theoretically,  still known by the characters but not by the viewer. So are we to assume that Sam does know about Dean and Cas's last words, even though we never saw the conversation on screen? 

Without the script we woukd never know it was even intended. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I always wonder how to take these cut scenes. Obviously it was the writer's intention that they be part of the story, so things that happen outside these scenes are, theoretically,  still known by the characters but not by the viewer. So are we to assume that Sam does know about Dean and Cas's last words, even though we never saw the conversation on screen? 

Without the script we woukd never know it was even intended. 

My take is that if it doesn't hit the final product, it's not canon, but a possibility.  Just my opinion on the matter.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

My take is that if it doesn't hit the final product, it's not canon, but a possibility.  Just my opinion on the matter.

I don't know. This isn't fan interpretation or even writer/director commentary on their intentions, etc. This is actual script, probably even filmed? before being cut. I'm imagining the actors performing these scenes, and that informing the rest of their portrayal, yet we're not getting these missing pieces of the story. It's a conundrum. 

[ILoveReading]

I have mixed feelings on this scene.  On one hand I love that Dean refuses to take responsibility for Cas's actions.   I liked Dean's attitude.  (It's one of the very few things I like this season).

Cas is responsible for how actions, Sam.  I mean how many times did he tell Dean he has to let him go his own way. 

But on the other, why is Sam putting this on Dean.  Its not on Dean to make him stay or go.  Also Sam looks like he doesn't care about Mary when he defends Cas's grief over Jack.  Jack also messed Dean up.  

Dean really has no one in his corner or even remotely cares what he's going through.

 

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I have mixed feelings on this scene.  On one hand I love that Dean refuses to take responsibility for Cas's actions.   I liked Dean's attitude.  (It's one of the very few things I like this season).

Cas is responsible for how actions, Sam.  I mean how many times did he tell Dean he has to let him go his own way. 

But on the other, why is Sam putting this on Dean.  Its not on Dean to make him stay or go.  Also Sam looks like he doesn't care about Mary when he defends Cas's grief over Jack.  Jack also messed Dean up.  

Dean really has no one in his corner or even remotely cares what he's going through.

 

Maybe that is why the scene was cut. They wanted the tiff between Dean and Castiel to be resolved between those two characters and not have Dean explain it to the audience through Sam. But it was kind of an odd bookend to the episode as shown on screen.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Maybe that is why the scene was cut. They wanted the tiff between Dean and Castiel to be resolved between those two characters and not have Dean explain it to the audience through Sam. But it was kind of an odd bookend to the episode as shown on screen.

It is odd. To me, the whole  thing only serves to emphasize the woobification of Castiel. Sam texted him a dozen times. It's clear the conflict is only with Dean (mean ol' Dean) and yet he also abandons and ignores Sam. And even that is somehow still on Dean, not wooby Cas.

[Myrelle]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It is odd. To me, the whole  thing only serves to emphasize the woobification of Castiel. Sam texted him a dozen times. It's clear the conflict is only with Dean (mean ol' Dean) and yet he also abandons and ignores Sam. And even that is somehow still on Dean, not wooby Cas.

I'm glad it was cut. 

The whole we don't need him bit would have just incited the Dean haters on tumblr and Twitter some more, and I've had enough of their crap to last me a lifetime at this point.

And Sam asking why Dean "let" him leave was wrong, IMO too, but we all know that Dean standing up for himself never lasts past the next episode(or in some cases, even the next scene) on Dabbernatural.

 

[The Companion]

On 11/14/2019 at 10:03 PM, ahrtee said:

I do feel obliged to point out (sorry!) that Black Forest, Colorado is not actually a forest--at least, not a wilderness area.  It's a wooded community a little north of Colorado Springs (with a lot fewer trees since the forest fire a few years ago); and no one would camp there unless it's in someone's back yard (or back of a lot where the horses are kept).  Plus the entire area (including downtown Colorado Springs) has bears, mountain lions and bobcats all over--so many bears, in fact, that they just passed an ordinance that everyone living on the west side of town has to buy bear-proof trash cans because so many bears were knocking them over.  

And of course there's the stupidity of the campers trying to zip up their tent, no matter what was outside--as if a zipper would stop a bear or mountain lion, much less a werewolf.

Sorry, I don't know why that bothered me more than the stupidity of the script.   I've got friends who live in Black Forest and a lot of bear poop in my yard in town, and *shrugs*  just want to set the record straight.  OTOH, Monument (the scene of Jus in Bello) is just about 15 miles north of here and nothing like it was in the show either. 

Zipping up thr tent and those camping outfits were both ridiculous.

As a New Orleanian, I sympathize with people getting your local area completely and totally wrong.

 

On 11/14/2019 at 10:34 PM, Cambion said:

 

And forgot to mention in my comments above that we predicted the gun in the glovebox was going to come back to bite them in the ass. 

I have been waiting for it. You have this powerful weapon and you leave it in the glovebox? Come on.

On 11/15/2019 at 6:10 AM, Shannonsspirit said:

The fact that the writers call attention to bad writing, boring stories, is the disturbing defeat for everyone. That it isn't even interesting enough or fun enough to even bother determining what characters are real.

 

I think the most disheartening thing for me is that I can't tell the difference between the recent episodes that weren't supposed to be hacky writing and the episodes where that was in play. That is depressing. 

I guess the only good news was that the twist explained the stupidity of the women at the beginning, the fact that Lilith was willing to stay in a random hotel room with someone she just met while drugged, and the terrible faux girl scout outfits or whatever was happening with the clothes. 

I agree that the actress playing Lilith made an otherwise lackluster episode moderately entertaining, so there is that.

 

[Katy M]

12 hours ago, The Companion said:

I guess the only good news was that the twist explained the stupidity of the women at the beginning, the fact that Lilith was willing to stay in a random hotel room with someone she just met while drugged, and the terrible faux girl scout outfits or whatever was happening with the clothes. 

I agree that the actress playing Lilith made an otherwise lackluster episode moderately entertaining, so there is that.

Not to discourage you, I only liked 2 1/2 epis this season and this was one of them.  How said is it that this was my second favorite episode of the season thus far?  Pretty said, probably.