Wheel of Time in the Media

[Danny Franks]

I wouldn't have been totally surprised if Amazon had cancelled it due to the pandemic, and what must be high production costs. The disruptions to filming are always going to put some executives off, and Amazon do have a LOTR show that they're also investing in.

Plus, the Wheel of Time isn't an equivalent to Game of Thrones, no matter how the show might end up being marketed. It's not as accessible due to the density of the lore and the magic system and the prophecies and even due to the narrative structure of the first book. 

The fact that Amazon instead chose to renew it suggests they're very happy with what they've seen so far. Hopefully that's reflected in the publicity campaign for the show before it's released.

[AnimeMania]

If the show is popular, it could push a ton of book sales.

[DoctorAtomic]

That's a double edged sword. Assuming the show is streamlining the more 'quieter' moments in the books, viewers may be bored to tears. 

[Danny Franks]

5 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

If the show is popular, it could push a ton of book sales.

I think it was Game of Thrones that finally pushed ASOIAF past WoT in book sales, so I do think a successful show would see it take the sales lead back. At least for the first two or three books, but once people realise how much reading is involved, a lot will probably give up.

I also find The Dragon Reborn to be a relatively dull book, as one of the few fans who isn't obsessed with Mat. He takes up a lot of that book, and I just get tired of his irreverent, 'I just want to have fun and no responsibility' personality quite quickly.

[Black Knight]

Yeah, when GoT premiered, only four books had been published, with the fifth coming out shortly after the first season ended. So it was, and still is, just a five book commitment. WoT clocking in at nine additional volumes for its main series will put off most people. But, it currently stands at 80 million sales for WoT's 14 books versus 90 million sales for ASOIAF's 5 books, so WoT doesn't have to pick up that many new readers willing to buy all 14 volumes to pass ASOIAF again in total sales. One reader who does that for WoT is worth almost three readers for ASOIAF.

[DoctorAtomic]

The Wheel of Time - Our Series is Actually Finished! 

 

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The Wheel of Time - Our Series is Actually Finished! 

 

LOL.  That is my overriding thought.  As a reader of both series I think I will look at this series differently than I do AGOT.  With WOT, the story is complete.  And even if the tv show veers wildly away from the books, the books will -- in my head -- remain original canon. 

But with AGOT, because the show is finished and there are two more books (at least) that have not yet been released and -- for me at the least  -- the tv show's canon usurps the book's canon at least post A Storm of Swords.  And I say this as a person who is a book purist and read the first three books over 20 years ago and have only casually watched the tv series.  I literally have no desire to pick up any additional books, for me the ending has already been written by the tv show.

[SnarkShark]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The Wheel of Time - Our Series is Actually Finished! 

Well, also so incredibly long that even if you planned for 10 seasons you'd still have to cut out 80% of the material from the books. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by SnarkShark

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

Well, also so incredibly long that even if you planned for 10 seasons you'd still have to cut out 80% of the material from the books. 

Come for the physics based magic! Stay for the tea pouring. With honey. And the stirring. 

[Danny Franks]

21 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

Well, also so incredibly long that even if you planned for 10 seasons you'd still have to cut out 80% of the material from the books. 

I think 80% is a little high. 70% maybe.

But seriously, the series will need some significant streamlining to be translated to screen. It's technically doable, I just fear that cutting too much might leave viewers a little cold to the characters and confused by the combination of present narrative, past and future, prophecies and foretellings that dominate much of the series.

21 hours ago, DearEvette said:

LOL.  That is my overriding thought.  As a reader of both series I think I will look at this series differently than I do AGOT.  With WOT, the story is complete.  And even if the tv show veers wildly away from the books, the books will -- in my head -- remain original canon. 

But with AGOT, because the show is finished and there are two more books (at least) that have not yet been released and -- for me at the least  -- the tv show's canon usurps the book's canon at least post A Storm of Swords.  And I say this as a person who is a book purist and read the first three books over 20 years ago and have only casually watched the tv series.  I literally have no desire to pick up any additional books, for me the ending has already been written by the tv show.

I care far, far more about this series than I do about ASOIAF, so I'm very nervous about this adaptation. Some of the stuff that's been released is exciting, some of has me wary and some is just really confusing. For example:

Spoiler

Elayne and her brothers not appearing in season one, which must mean no scene of Rand falling into the palace gardens and meeting them. Okay, I love that scene and the scene with him meeting Morgase, but I get why they might want to trim them for time and because it's a narrative strand that won't be picked up again until the next season. But when is Rand going to meet Elayne? In Tear? Their romance already feels incredibly abrupt, how will it be justified if they've only just met and are "canoodling in corners"?

Rafe has talked about changing Rand's harem to more of a polyamory situation, and I have an inkling that he's going to have Elayne and Min as "pillow friends" in the Tower - boarding school lesbian experimentation is something Jordan mentions in passing a few times, including with Moiraine and Siuan, so it's kind of authentic to the books. But then they have to cross the bridge from Min/Elayne to Elayne/Rand without having had Elayne meet Rand at all. 

One idea I've had is that he could meet her at Lord Barthanes party, in Cairhien. That she, Gawyn and Galad are on their way to the tower and stop off to spend a little time their father's family. Have their meeting replace the horny cougar scene. But then it throws off Egwene meeting them in the Tower.

I don't know. Like I say, it's confusing.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm kind of a hostile witness when it comes to the Wheel of Time. I did not like the last book at all. Not a knock on Sanderson. I thought his writing was seemless from Jordan. 

There's a lot of problems with these books. 

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

But seriously, the series will need some significant streamlining to be translated to screen. It's technically doable, I just fear that cutting too much might leave viewers a little cold to the characters and confused by the combination of present narrative, past and future, prophecies and foretellings that dominate much of the series

After all that, I think this will blow Game of Thrones out of the water. 

I never read the GoT books. I don't care to until the series is done. 

Streamlining is the key here. 

[Atlanta]

When it comes to time and content, a lot of book lines are taken up with long travels (before they discover skimming and true 'traveling'), baths, eating, etc. I'm a bit puzzled that there will not be a brief Elayne cameo in season one, and can't see her and Min as lovers of convenience.

[paulvdb]

The Wheel Of Time - Motion Title Treatment:

 

[Danny Franks]

As with everything about this show, people have been picking this apart and discussing whether it's trying to ape Game of Thrones or The Witcher and if it's an improvement or not.

I do like the Flame of Tar Valon and Dragon's Fang hint at the beginning, and the Old Tongue script which apparently says "The People of the Dragon are always welcome here." Stuff like that makes me think this show is a labour of love for those involved.

[Black Knight]

Those first few seconds are totally aping GoT's opening, but I get it. It's an expensive show that will need to run for many seasons if it's going to be able to tell the full story, so they're going to do whatever they have to to get people to try the show. Seeing those first few seconds practically inspires a Pavlovian response for GoT fans. This is well-produced and looks great.

They should've written "OUR book series is finished - admittedly the author died first and someone else had to write the remaining books, but still, OUR book series is finished!" in the Old Tongue script.

[DoctorAtomic]

I've said the same thing. The series has already been written. It's invariably going to be compared to GOT; they should take it head on. 

[Danny Franks]

I think people looking for more superficial similarities will be disappointed when there's no sex or nudity in the first episode... or first season. Though it wouldn't surprise me if the shared baths at Fal Dara feature in a couple of scenes late on.

The comparisons to Game of Thrones are inevitable, but I think Amazon would be wiser to compare it to Lord of the Rings although, given they also have a Lord of the Rings show in the works, it's understandable why they might not want to.

I always see the Wheel of Time as a kind of transition point, from the post-Tolkien fantasy of the 1980s that focused heavily on the Hero's Journey and a quest to defeat the great evil, to the late-90s and onwards trend towards darker, more murky stories that place more emphasis on the evil that normal humans can do. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'd say Donaldson bridged that Tolkien to GRRM/Jordan gap with Thomas Covenant. 

[Jalyn]

On 7/3/2021 at 2:43 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I'd say Donaldson bridged that Tolkien to GRRM/Jordan gap with Thomas Covenant. 

I'd never say that Jordan couldn't do dark (think the nightmares that the Aes Sedai fall into while training in dreaming as an obvious example) but Donaldson was just doing something completely different. It wasn't about making the world dark but about putting a completely irredeemable character as the protagonist. I'm not sure what that lead to (other than more Donaldson) but it didn't lead to grim dark exactly. (GRRM isn't fully grim dark, but it's headed that way)

Edited July 5, 2021 by Jalyn

[DoctorAtomic]

Well, more serious fantasy coming out post LOTR. Except for the first book. You have to throw him in there somewhere.  

Edited July 5, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[Danny Franks]

So the show is going to have a Comicon presence this year - still online only, so I don't think it's going to generate much buzz - and it seems likely that we'll get a teaser trailer, at the very least. Maybe some casting announcements for season two. I can't wait to see who they've found to play Elayne and Lanfear.

[Black Knight]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

So the show is going to have a Comicon presence this year - still online only, so I don't think it's going to generate much buzz

I don't think lack of Comicon buzz will negatively affect WoT's chances of success. Game of Thrones was at Wondercon (and probably Comicon, but I wasn't there) before its premiere, and there was no line to sit on the Iron Throne.

The reality is that except for the Harry Potter series, no modern fantasy/SF book series has truly been a pop culture phenomenon before the movie/TV adaptation came along to elevate it in awareness. It didn't stop the Hunger Games film franchise from being huge, or GoT from being the television juggernaut it became. I'm not saying there weren't passionate readers/fans prior - of course there were - but the readership even for a best-selling book typically pales in comparison to the numbers for a hit TV show or film.

[AnimeMania]

They just starting filming Season 2.

[Anduin]

Rafe Judkins says there should be a trailer by the end of the summer. Should be. Grain of salt there. However, when does American summer actually end? I know it doesn't mirror Aussie winter.

[DoctorAtomic]

Traditionally, Labor Day is the end of summer. 

[Black Knight]

The last day of summer this year in the northern hemisphere is September 21st. September 22nd is the fall equinox. Much advertising uses the fall equinox as the cut-off point where their copy will stop referencing summer and start referencing fall.

Labor Day has fallen off in consciousness as the end of summer because many schools start in August now.

[DoctorAtomic]

. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[Anduin]

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Traditionally, Labor Day is the end of summer. 

I don't even know when Aussie Labour Day is, let alone American.

7 hours ago, Black Knight said:

The last day of summer this year in the northern hemisphere is September 21st. September 22nd is the fall equinox. Much advertising uses the fall equinox as the cut-off point where their copy will stop referencing summer and start referencing fall.

Labor Day has fallen off in consciousness as the end of summer because many schools start in August now.

Thank you!

[Starla]

Show releasing in November!

 

[Danny Franks]

I know it's only one image, and I know it's slightly reminiscent of some low quality fantasy shows but... That's Moiraine Sedai!

November feels like it's a long way away.

 

[Black Knight]

I wonder if they're planning on Thanksgiving weekend so more people can binge immediately?

[AnimeMania]

Welcome to The Wheel of Time: Take a magical first look at Amazon's new fantasy adaptation

The article has a detailed look at all aspects of "The Wheel of Time".

'The Wheel of Time' characters Egwene al'Vere (Madeleine Madden) and Rand al'Thor (Josha Stradowski) have known each other their whole lives in the village of Two Rivers, but now find themselves bound together on a globe-trotting quest.

Logain (Álvaro Morte) is a man capable of using magic and thinks that makes him a king. The Aes Sedai, a female-only mystic order, disagree.

Lan (Daniel Henney) protects Moiraine (Rosamund Pike) from the darkness of Shadar Logoth in Amazon's 'The Wheel of Time' series.

[DoctorAtomic]

I just read it. They did the best they could for an overview to draw in non book readers. I mean, there's way too much to just give 1000 words on it. 

Shadar Logoth looks great. If anything bringing that map in the beginning of the book to life will be worth it. 

Logain and Egwene actually look like I thought in my head. Whether anyone does or not isn't going to have any bearing on anything. I was surprised. 

[DearEvette]

I think the article did a good job of trying to whet the appetite of non-readers.  It is also trying to differentiate itself from GOT and Tolkein world  by emphasizing the Aes Sedai and the importance of the women.  Even though I am a reader of he series, I think between the article and the pictures it did a good job of piquing interest and carving out a place.

The picture of Shadar Logoth!!  It looks like I imagined it to look in my head.  That make me excited even more.

Oh and Lan.  Sigh.  I love the casting for Lan.

Admittedly not the best picture of Logain. I think that is the first picture I've seen of the actor in his Logain-wear.  It doesn't do him justice, imo.  It ages him a bit.  But again that picture feels like it came out of the book.

Now I am even more pumped!

[DoctorAtomic]

Isn't the Logain a flashback? Or really early when the kids see it before they really know what's going on? iirc, he's supposed to be shielded, no? That looks right with the two of them staring him down. 

 

[Danny Franks]

I think it all looks great. Is it exactly as I saw it in my head? No, but I knew it wouldn't be, and I'm fine with that.

The actors look great, their costumes are very solid looking and the rough nature is perfect for the first book. 

Egwene, in particular, I love. She has the perfect, stubborn and determined face and I can see her being loved by many and Ioathed by almost as many (because that's what happens with strong, female characters in TV shows).

The second shot of Rand is as close to my headcanon as any image I've ever seen of him.

Lan's casting makes me smile because there are still people who try to claim his character isn't inspired by the noble Samurai trope and that he shouldn't be Asian. 

[DoctorAtomic]

4 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Lan's casting makes me smile because there are still people who try to claim his character isn't inspired by the noble Samurai trope and that he shouldn't be Asian. 

I'm going to love all the dudeflake whining about this. 

My head Rand is much more slight than the actor. Not weak or thin per se, but I guess more lithe? Like a cyclist or swimmer. 

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

My head Rand is much more slight than the actor. Not weak or thin per se, but I guess more lithe? Like a cyclist or swimmer. 

Heh. You know how big Rand looks on those covers from the original printing runs? Jordan said that in his mind, Rand was even bigger than that. Of course. (eyeroll)

The Rand actor to me looks like a reasonable version of Rand rather than the mythical demigod giant of Jordan's imaginings. I like the looks of all the actors I see in these photos - if they can all act, too, then casting's hit a home run here.

[DoctorAtomic]

I first bought The Dragon Reborn in London, and I don't recall Rand being jacked in the cover art. 

I don't object to the actor at all, and I'm rooting for the entire cast. 

It stands to reason that Rand would be built because he grew up on a farm though. 

I guess because of him naturally taking to the swordfighting and archery that I thought he'd be more lithe than jacked. 

No big deal though. 

 

[DearEvette]

This is the US Lord Of Chaos cover with Rand looking extra jacked and about 40 years old.  LOL.

 

I like the newer covers.  They speak to me:

 

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

This is the US Lord Of Chaos cover with Rand looking extra jacked and about 40 years old.  LOL.

Exactly the cover I was thinking most about! It's a good thing that wasn't the cover of the first book, or I would never have started the series at all. Only Jordan would look at that cover and go, "Eh, Rand's too small."

The newer covers are so much better. The one you posted really does a lovely job of capturing Rand's psychological complexity.

[Danny Franks]

15 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Heh. You know how big Rand looks on those covers from the original printing runs? Jordan said that in his mind, Rand was even bigger than that. Of course. (eyeroll)

The Rand actor to me looks like a reasonable version of Rand rather than the mythical demigod giant of Jordan's imaginings. I like the looks of all the actors I see in these photos - if they can all act, too, then casting's hit a home run here.

I got tired of explaining to people on Reddit that it was impractical, unrealistic and very unnecessary to stick to RJ's descriptions of character size.

Having a 6'6 Rand next to a 5'2 Egwene or Min would look frankly comical and be incredibly difficult to film. Never mind the challenge of finding actors who are the right size and colouring but can also actually act.

Rand was never going to be the same size as RJ wrote him, but I think Josha Stradowski is a great fit. He's not as big as he looks in that coat, and does have more of a lean, muscular physique in some of his Instagram pics. 

13 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Exactly the cover I was thinking most about! It's a good thing that wasn't the cover of the first book, or I would never have started the series at all. Only Jordan would look at that cover and go, "Eh, Rand's too small."

The newer covers are so much better. The one you posted really does a lovely job of capturing Rand's psychological complexity.

Older fantasy covers are notoriously bad. The art style seemed almost deliberately off-putting so that the books stayed within their niche genre and didn't attract wider attention.

The Wheel of Time ones rarely bear any resemblance to anything in the actual book, but Darrell K. Sweet was a popular fantasy cover artist for a long time.

[AnimeMania]

Wheel of Time's Main Characters Will Be Older Than Their Book Counterparts

"We aged up the Emond's Field Five from the books because sometimes TV shows with a bunch of 17 year olds as leads feel more like YA and Wheel of Time isn't YA," wrote the showrunner, Rafe Judkins.

Those five from Emond's Field that Judkins is referring to are Rand al'Thor, Perrin Aybara, Matrim Cauthon, Egwene al'Vere and Nynaeve al'Meara. The three men all start out around age 19, Egwene is 17 or so and Nynaeve, the oldest of the group, is in her early twenties.

The casting for the show holds true to the way the character's ages are spread out but noticeably aged up. Josha Stradowski (Rand), Marcus Rutherford (Perrin) and Barney Harris (Mat) are each in their mid-20s. Madeleine Madden (Egwene) is just a year or two behind them at 24. Zoë Robins (Nynaeve), as the village wise woman, is 28.

[DoctorAtomic]

I didn't realize they were that young in the actual books anyway. 

That Dragon Reborn is kind of how I thought of Rand. It's a cool artwork. 

The other TV problem is if you cast 6'6" Rand, and he's half Aiel, then you need a boatload of giant actors when you get to Rhudien. Lots easier to do a casting call just 6' and up. 

I'm surprised the Perrin actor is as tall as the Rand. I always thought him like short and stocky. 

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Wheel of Time's Main Characters Will Be Older Than Their Book Counterparts

"We aged up the Emond's Field Five from the books because sometimes TV shows with a bunch of 17 year olds as leads feel more like YA and Wheel of Time isn't YA," wrote the showrunner, Rafe Judkins.

Those five from Emond's Field that Judkins is referring to are Rand al'Thor, Perrin Aybara, Matrim Cauthon, Egwene al'Vere and Nynaeve al'Meara. The three men all start out around age 19, Egwene is 17 or so and Nynaeve, the oldest of the group, is in her early twenties.

The casting for the show holds true to the way the character's ages are spread out but noticeably aged up. Josha Stradowski (Rand), Marcus Rutherford (Perrin) and Barney Harris (Mat) are each in their mid-20s. Madeleine Madden (Egwene) is just a year or two behind them at 24. Zoë Robins (Nynaeve), as the village wise woman, is 28.

I doubt they'll ever explicitly give us their ages, because they're not really relevant to the story. But there are character beats in the books that really only make sense for teenagers -

Egwene 'coming of age' and Rand having to think about the prospect of marriage. Elayne not having any kind of suitor despite being heir to the Andoran throne, all the characters being very inexperienced with romance and sex etc.

I don't mind the aging up, but I hope they'll age up the relationship dynamics too. If Rand and Egwene are in their late teens/early twenties then they shouldn't be so unsure of where they stand in regard to one another.

[DoctorAtomic]

That's fair, but I think you can split that down the middle. It's really about people in a far off rural place thrust into world politics and a world war. 

You can chalk some of it up to naiveity and kind of write around the rest.

Maybe Elayne has turned down a lot of suitors. Maybe the queen is being overly protective. Something like that. 

[Black Knight]

On 8/21/2021 at 7:58 AM, Danny Franks said:

The Wheel of Time ones rarely bear any resemblance to anything in the actual book, but Darrell K. Sweet was a popular fantasy cover artist for a long time.

His style was certainly immediately identifiable, but good lord. I don't know anyone who ever liked his artwork. Even back in the day he was regularly trashed amongst serious fans, justifiably. Even back then there were good artists willing to draw artwork for SFF, and sure, the stereotypical teen boy fandom liked big guys and boobs, but they can still be drawn better. Heh.

Most of the teenage immaturity of the WoT characters came from the way they approached romance (example A: the repeated instances where Male 1 would bemoan how hopeless he was with the opposite sex and why he couldn't be good at it like the other two guys, incredibly laughworthy considering one dude had a harem, the second was a big womanizer, and the third had no problem pulling a noblewoman who wanted to marry him not long into the relationship), and it sounds like the show is dumping all of that nonsense (it wasn't realistic even for teenagers) and writing them more realistically, so it's easy to age them up.

Perrin always struck me as a big guy - the big, strong, silent type. Bigger than Rand, really, except of course Jordan's lead hero had to be the biggest most jacked dude of all.

[AnimeMania]

More photos. This one is from the a print version of TV Guide magazine.

[DoctorAtomic]

Huge laugh for Bela. 

[AnimeMania]

Edited September 1, 2021 by AnimeMania