KerleyQ

Good old Frank and Ron, the one time they really should go for the obvious ploy, they're afraid of seeming like they're going for it.

So, ME can get a half dozen or so characters, JVP can come back as a Carlos twin, but they can't correct the biggest casting mistake and turn RoHo into anyone but Franco? (Whatever anyone thinks of RoHo, he's pretty much here to stay.)

My favorite part is that he said he doesn't care if what he said affects his career. Because, you know, his career has been on fire lately.

Meanwhile, Joss, her actually still minor child, could probably plan, book, and take a trip to Australia to see Jax without Carly even noticing.

In the Media thread, there's a report that a lot of the regular, non-AYTO, cast members were declining to participate in the upcoming season. I'm wondering if that has anything to do with the information leaking out among the regulars that one member of each winning team was given the decision as to whether to split their winnings with their partner or not. I already said in here that this is going to make it harder for cast members to trust John, but really, it also damages the trust cast members have in production. They now know that it's possible to show up, compete, do everything right, and win the whole season and not get your winnings. That has to cause some of them to re-consider showing up. Even if you're someone who usually shows up just for the free vacation, you still have to be wary of the idea that, if you do rightfully win, you might not get the prize. It seems like this was such a bone-headed idea to give John his "win" over Sarah, who had "betrayed" him. Although I will say that there is a small cynical part of me who wonders if this was all fake-ish. You have Sarah, who retired and got married, coming back for a season where she just happens to be teamed up with John as rivals. They win, and, hey, look at that, John gets the chance to decide if she gets any money at all, so he keeps it all to get his revenge on Sarah for sending him in to an elimination two seasons ago. Sarah and John are both people who would play out a story if the producers gave it to them. It wouldn't surprise me to hear some time down the line that Sarah really got paid. I know John is a petulant childish asshole, but if there's one thing he's smart about, it's playing this game. So I can go either way on whether or not he'd be stupid enough to endanger his future ability to get people to trust him on Challenges just to get his "revenge" moment. Because if he was thinking strategically, "magnanimously" still splitting the pot with the partner who had "betrayed" him in the past would have made his ass golden for a while.

I can't lay even a tiny bit of blame for Ridge's dunk from the chopper at Quinn's feet. We all know Ridge was going to find a reason to go after Brooke and break up her wedding come hell or high water. Quinn's revealed romp with Bill gave him the flimsy excuse he was looking for, but he would have gone anyway. And she had zero way of knowing what would happen. That was, to me, the thing she gets blamed for where her hands are pretty clean. Is there anyone who's been on the show more than a minute who hasn't done something similar to revealing a secret to try to break up a couple?

I wonder if the answer to this is what's in the spoiler thread for this season. I can see a lot of the regulars being wary after that.

I'm pretty sure his crazy is legit, not exaggerated for the cameras. The whole smearing his feces all over his jail cell thing says it all for me. Not that I don't still appreciate him as a Challenge character, especially his disdain for John. But, he definitely has issues.

I laughed all through that one. Because that was when the rest of the guys managed to talk Wes into trying to get CT to take a swing at him (if I'm remembering correctly), and CT knew exactly what he was trying to do, so, instead of giving him the physical reaction he wanted, he just yelled at him for hours.

Could that potentially be another Exes season? Because I'm seeing a lot of rumored or known hook-ups on there. Of course, at this point the casting pool has become so incestuous that it would be impossible to not see former hook ups on any casting list, I guess. I was relieved to not see John's name on there, but his dumbass cousin is on there.

Especially since her death, as written, really didn't have any real lingering consequences. Ivy taunted Steffy over it for a little while, but Liam and Wyatt fell all over themselves trying to cover for her, and it just led to Ivy's exit.

Exactly. Cory promised Dario he wouldn't say his name. Why should it matter to him that Dario was working with Wes, too? If nothing else, the person who has said they'd help you stay having other people on their side is a good thing. Because that means that they have the ability to say to that other person "hey, Dario is working with me, so we want to keep him around." You need an alliance of more than one other team. If the alliance is too big, at some point, you might have to worry about being the odd man out, but, at some point, you also have to do something for yourself. And there are all kinds of alliances. There are alliances to help each other get to the final, and there are alliances to eliminate threats. When there is one team in the house that is the odds on favorite to win the whole damn thing, then the rest of you should absolutely be teaming up to get them out of there every single chance you get. Because you don't want them getting to the final mission. Once that's done, you can all revert to "every man for himself" or divide your loyalties up among smaller alliances, but there should be an overall alliance every single season to get John out of there ASAP, before he gets a chance to take control.

I guarantee you Bell already has that idea. He just hasn't figured out yet if he'll run it with a returning Ivy or a recast Hope. Or, if he's really lucky, he'll get a chance to do it with both. Multiple times. There will be a musical chairs thing, where, every time the dust settles, Liam will realize how desperately he loves whichever girl ended up with Wyatt, and he'll spend months staring into the sky to view another musical montage, while his current fiancee/wife snuggles up to him. And Wyatt will just sit back and wait to see who's leftover after Liam picks one of the three.

To be clear, I wasn't speaking about stability behind the scenes, but that they likely pay their bills on time, aren't shafting buyers or vendors. And I just don't see this "controversy" as a deal breaker for most consumers, especially if they get a sanitized version of the truth (which is, at most, all anyone outside the family is entitled to). And for Rick, specifically, to moan and bitch about the "controversy" being a danger to the company is rich. It wasn't exactly long ago that he was the CEO, wandering the halls with a gun, taking shots at his estranged wife and his brother. And he had already moved a new woman into his bedroom. As a consumer, I wouldn't give a shit over the romantic entanglements of the company or a paternity mess, but I'd definitely have to reconsider continuing to buy products from a CEO who was recklessly discharging a firearm because he's pissed over the demise of his marriage. As for them lying to the media, nobody outside the family is entitled to any information about how Douglas was conceived. Unless Ridge held a press conference to declare the wonders of a new Forrester product, guaranteed to reverse the effects of a vasectomy, touting his fathering Douglas as proof it works, what's the lie? He is Douglas's father. Thomas is his biological father, but Ridge is also his father, as the man who was married to Caroline when Douglas was born. And he intended right from the start to raise him. Any buyers, vendors, or consumers who expect that Ridge should have volunteered the information behind the conception, publicly shaming his wife and son and leaving an innocent child open to the level of scrutiny that story being public would involve is just being ridiculous.

Other than the Johnny Bananas Backpack clip (which is always going to be my favorite Challenge clip ever), TJ's glee during trivia missions was my favorite thing about this special. I am right there with him on his love for the trivia missions. I loved his inability to get back to the next question for a few moments after John's "Dutch" answer.

So far I kind of like Devin. I don't watch AYTO, so I don't know how much of an asshole he was there, but I like him here. He definitely comes across as another Wes, with his perfectly understandable "why are all of you people so fucking stupid that you keep trusting John when you know he's only looking out for himself and won't hesitate to squash you" irritation with the stupid that's permeating the rest of the house. And I like it. That and I liked him talking to Tony after the Tony/Camilla meltdown, telling him how you don't act like that towards a woman. It's a breath of fresh air, especially when you contrast it with the fact that John went and woke Tony up, specifically to generate a big old mess for his own personal entertainment.

Is their tour sponsored by MonaVie? And would it be too much to ask if, for their opening act, they have BryDog perform a monologue on his deep thoughts about the world around him? He could shill his toxic skin cream right along side the juice in the lobby.

And this will show the depth of my hatred for Niz - I'd rather deal with her with Franco. Niz was the worst, and, romantically, BH and TC had anti-chemistry. God do I wish they'd kill Franco and bring RoHo back as someone, anyone else to pair her with. Because, dammit, they have chemistry, and I hate that they do. Just reveal he's not really Franco, show. Come on, work with me here. Now, if they're really going to go with Jax stealing a kidney for Joss, wouldn't that mean that he knew Jake wasn't dead? Because why would he be out trying to find a black market kidney when they thought they had one for her? If Jax knew Jake didn't die, then we know where the AJ Express Bus headed after it got done driving back and forth over Liz to prop the Holy Hitman and his Kidnapping Accomplice* wife. It had to swing around and take out Jax to prop up the Moobster and that Cujo Beast Jax should have never married or reproduced with. *And this is why Franco kidnapping Aidan isn't a deal breaker for a Liz/Franco pairing. On this show, that shit isn't a romantic deal breaker. I assume the attitude in the writers' room is "well, every kid in this town gets kidnapped, it's just a right of passage. No need to hold a grudge unless the kidnapper is AJ, because fuck that fat bastard."

From what I remember, Jenna was ready to go the distance with it, but once it became clear that Jay was wimping out, she decided "I'm not going to sit here and keep drinking this crap if he's just going to quit." So I think all the scorn should be heaped on Jay.

That's one of my big sticking points with the "they didn't do anything wrong" crowd. If what they did wasn't even close to a sexual assault, if it was just some stupid prank, why not just show the video to Tonya and say "look, nothing like what you think happened, happened"? Not only does it clear two people from serious allegations, but it eases the mind of a woman who thinks she was sexually assaulted in some manner. Instead, they settle the case and never again allow the two accused cast members on the show - two cast members who, prior to that, they loved having on. They were among their lead "stars" in the franchise (for whatever reasons). If they had footage that shows that all that happened was a prank, and not anything on the level of sexual assault, they could easily have cleared the decks for Kenny and Evan to return at any time. Think back to the CT/Adam fight. CT literally could have killed someone that night. It was a violent, angry, out of control storm on his part. Did they ban CT from ever appearing again? Nope. Did they bury that footage and quietly pay off Adam? Nope. They show flashbacks of it with some regularity and paired Adam up with CT in a later season of the show. Think of all the nasty stuff people have said and done to Tonya over various seasons. The people in charge invited Tonya back various times precisely because they knew they'd get footage of other cast members laughing at unstable Tonya, and other cast members being cruel to unstable Tonya. Yet this instance remains hidden. If it was just some prank, they would have shown it. Because that was what Tonya was there for. It would be like not showing a "Camillanator" moment. They invite Camilla back time after time because they know she's good for at least one good drunken angry tear through the house. They just showed us footage again on last night's clip show of Camilla, topless, ranting and raving through the house as Paula tried to get her to calm down and cover up. And even given all of that, BMP doesn't need to show us the tape, but they damn well should have shown Tonya the tape. She has the right to know exactly what happened to her that night. That they won't show it to her or us, though, speaks volumes, given what they will show. And that they won't ever have Kenny and Evan back on their show also speaks volumes, given the returns they've allowed of other cast members after bad behavior. As for the potential for a lie from Sarah/Susie vs. Wes/Katie/Veronica, here's my take: Of the two scenarios you laid out, it just seems far more plausible to me that Sarah and Susie witnessed something happening and didn't stop it or speak up because they were maybe drunk, and they were caught up in the mob mentality, and it was being done by two people the liked to a girl they did not like at all, who was frequently the butt of people's jokes. Since that night, they've pretty much had to keep telling themselves that what happened wasn't sexual assault, otherwise, what kind of people does it make them that they sat by and watched and never spoke up? Either scenario would be bad, of course, but I feel like this scenario is more in line with human nature and, while disgusting, isn't born from a place of outright evil. (Which is what I could consider the alternative of someone falsely accusing someone of sexual assault, causing emotional and mental anguish to a woman who already has so many emotional issues, just to get back at someone.) And, honestly, Wes doesn't seem to me like a guy who spends much time obsessing over these seasons once they're over. He seems to have a pretty full, successful life, and he seems to know that, when he shows up for these seasons, he's playing a role. I can't see him being so angry, months after a season ends, and he's ensconced back in his real life, deciding that he needs to nurture some for the cameras grudge with something that nasty. I believe that, by that point, Kenny and Johanna were long over, so any legitimate reason for a real life issue had passed. It just doesn't make sense.

If she did hook up with him, I'm betting it was ill-advised rebound sex when she was feeling crappy over that douchetool Zach. Jenna has such tragic taste in men. Someone needs to do an intervention and get her into some therapy to develop her self-esteem. Speaking of tragic taste in men, I just want to shake some sense into Nicole. Every time she's gushing about Nate, I just keep looking at him and saying "him? Really??" That's the guy she wants to throw her own cousin over for after knowing him for five minutes? I'm definitely not getting that at all. Sarah's speech to Wes made me hate her all over again. My previous low point with Sarah was her and Laurel bullying Cara Maria back on...crap...what season was that? She's managed to wildly surpass that low point now, though. How can she talk with her head stuck so far up John's ass? The only John moment I'm looking forward to this season is when he ultimately (I assume) shows Dario exactly what kind of loyalty one gets in return for screwing over their friends to prop John. I'd love to pop some corn and kick back with Corey and Ashley to watch that inevitable moment on replay over and over again. Dario is just so damn proud of himself for his "smart" choice.

The funny part is that you know she probably came back from her self-imposed retirement because she had some idea this was going to be a Rivals thing where she'd get paired up with John. She probably figured the two of them together would win, so she went for it. And, well, they did win. I'm annoyed with her, but I do hope that she decides to come back for another season hell bent on beating him. She's a strong enough competitor and has sucked up to enough people that she could mount a serious anti-Bananas faction.

Part of the reason I'm not watching very often lately is because I fear that, if I watched, BH (and, to a lesser extent, RoHo) would sell me on this damn pairing. It would be too easy for me to say "well, this is the only pairing they're going to give Liz, and Becky's acting the hell out of it." I don't want that. From the little bit I've seen, I can tell the two of them have chemistry, and Roger has actually been trying (again, in the little I've seen). I can't let myself get sucked in. And Alexis is really pregnant? Are they fucking kidding me?

Agreed. Something happened. For Sarah and Susie to term it "sexual misconduct" means it's more than an acceptable level of silly practical jokes (which is what I think they're trying to allude to with their "frat house hijinks" label). Once you throw the term "sexual" on to something that happened to a woman who was passed out (or so drunk that she may as well have been passed out), it's a form of sexual assault. Unfortunately, the Challenge houses aren't a place where you're likely to encounter a very enlightened view as to what constitutes sexual assault. I think that, unfortunately, Sarah and Susie view what happened to Tonya as something somehow "less than" what they've each encountered in their own past assaults. Add in their negative view of Tonya and their friendships with Kenny and Evan, and they're looking at this as a silly joke, that wouldn't have happened if Tonya wasn't such a messy drunk. Do any of us really expect to get an honest evaluation about something that happened to Tonya from one of the ring leaders of the "We Hate Tonya" game? It's sad that two women who have experienced sexual assault themselves would take such a hard line stance against another victim, but it does happen. And I hate the implication (from John, I think?) that since they were victims of assault in the past themselves, they're the definitive word on what happened now, to someone they don't like at the hands of men they do like.

If the rest of the Challenge universe has any brains at all, he has just thrown away anyone ever trusting him again (other than Vince). And I've always suspected that Wes and John are friendly outside of the competition. They're both smart enough to know that them feuding is worth more to the show than them getting along.