apinknightmare

The show has never once ever implied that only costumed people are heroes, and I'd be shocked if the season ended that way. In fact, it's gone out of the way to show that people who don't wear costumes are incredibly brave and heroic - especially where Felicity is concerned. How many times has she saved the day? She's brains and not braun, and the fact that people underestimate her has worked to her advantage on more than one occasion. Generally speaking, Felicity is support, but the show has never implied that she's just support. Look, people are going to use "hero" and "superhero" interchangeably, and the interpretation of interviews and whatnot is all subjective. Fact is, I care what I'm being shown. Arrow has a lot of faults. It's got too much going on (as per usual), and Diggle and Felicity oftentimes are on the short end of the stick when it comes to cast bloat, but it has always shown both of them as extremely capable and heroic. I don't care what words anyone uses to describe them when they're talking off the cuff in interviews outside of the show- I care that Diggle can handle himself, and that he keeps his moral code when dealing with the Deadshots of the world, and that he continues to fight the good fight. I care that Felicity isn't damseled, and that she keeps using her brains to get herself and her team out of trouble, and that she keeps putting herself out there without regard to her personal safety. Support or not, costume or not, title or not, Arrow has always shown these two as being heroes, and it's in bigger trouble than we thought if that changes.

The problem is that you're assuming that because people thought that DR was referring to costumed superheroes when he said "legit heroes" that they're somehow discounting Diggle and Felicity's bravery or value, when they're not. No one ever said they weren't heroes. When discussing a superhero show, generally people think the word "hero" is synonymous with "superhero." So, when I listen to DR's interview - even though he said "legit heroes" instead of "superheroes", I would assume he was talking superheroes as I interpret them in this medium aka a costumed, known comics person. It's not an indictment on Diggle or Felicity or how important or heroic they are. It's got everything to do with the reader/watcher/listener's expectation and interpretation. For example,

Except

That article has clickbait written all over it, and it's made me so angry that I can't even formulate a coherent response. I mean... Just...get out of here with that nonsensical logic. All interesting characters have to be spun off into their own show or not exist at all! Be careful - your story gets too complicated and you need to make room for the Laurel Lances and Roy Harpers of the world. I like Roy, but no thanks.

Unfortunately, the EPs have already let us know that she's not going to be a good fighter, so if she's going to be a badass, she's going to have to find another way. And yeah, the backpacking lie was only for Dinah - Quentin knows Sara's in the LoA and there might be a reason Sara isn't answering her phone. Dinah, for some stupid reason, was still in the dark about that despite the fact that a couple of assassins kidnapped her last season. Wonder what the explanation for that was. I don't think Laurel dressing up to deceive Quentin (IF she does) would make her keeping Sara's death from him more awful - she's proven that she's selfish in that regard. But it does suck her down neck-deep into the quicksand of assholery she continues to sink into. Hopefully those tweets about Quentin and Laurel indicate that she comes clean about Sara's death in 3x10 or 3x11. I hope she comes clean about it on her own and isn't forced into it because Quentin sees her all buckled in and ready for takeoff in her big girl vigilante suit. I especially hope he doesn't see her in it after getting her ass kicked. Because if she's so worried about him having a heart attack and dying? Dressing up and going out and fighting crime when she isn't ready (and even when she is) isn't going to help that. And no, I'm not suggesting that she not do something she wants to do because she needs to consider her father's feelings, but I am suggesting that her character's contradictory reasoning continues to suck.

Tweeting praise about two of the more unpopular characters. Bless her, she's doing her job.

What @ban10 posted - MG replied to a tweet. There's nothing that suggests whoever it is actually goes looking for him or anything.

I didn't write that she didn't know how dangerous the League was, just that she probably hadn't heard the lore of Ra's al Ghul like Team Arrow had. I'm not sure how much Sara would've shared with her about that. It's one thing for her to share customs of the League and for her sister and father to know that she's an assassin, it's another thing to go into scary detail about the guy she basically committed her life to. My point was that if it is Laurel who "doubts" that Oliver's dead, it could just be a disbelief that he could be bested by someone (because she's never seen someone like Ra's in action), not some gut feeling that he's alive because she knows him to his bones. And doubting that he's dead doesn't equal sending out a search party for him or being the only one who believes against an overwhelming tide of evidence or something. It could simply be denial. And that spoiler was so vague, that doubt could come from anyone at any point after an extended period of Oliver not returning. For all we know the team doesn't hear from Oliver for a while and maybe one of them floats the thought that he could've lost - could be Roy since he was the one who said Ra's would kill him in the first place. Maybe Diggle and Felicity doubt it at first, then come to accept it once the evidence is stacked against them.

I don't know, doubting that he's dead could mean anything. Does this person or do these people actively think he's alive or are they just in denial after they're told? Those are two separate situations in my book, and it's impossible to tell which one it is based on that tweet by MG - unless there's been another with more clarification. Honestly, I think it could very well be Laurel, because Oliver didn't say goodbye to her or tell her where he was going, and she doesn't know who Ra's al Ghul is, does she? So, believing he could be alive might be less - I know Oliver, he's a survivor and a fighter and he wouldn't give up, he's still alive and more I have no clue who this man is and have zero idea how he could've bested Oliver in combat after everything he's survived. Also, she doesn't know that Oliver went off to his death because Thea's the one who killed Sara - we've been given every indication that she'll be pissed as hell to find out that a) he knows who killed Sara and didn't tell her, b) it's Thea and c) he took away her chance at getting her UNHOLY VENGEANCE or whatever. Stranger things have happened, but I don't think Laurel's going to be leading a search party for him, unless it's so she can stab him in the face when she finds him.

I will be devastated if they cancel JtV. It's so great and fun to watch and I love that (so far) Jane has told the truth instead of lying for the sake of drama, and people who keep secrets keep them for actual good reason, and the people on the show I'm not supposed to like make me love to hate them. I wish more people would watch it.

Well, we don't know that they do? Just because he's the one that tells them doesn't mean they buy it right away. They buy it eventually, but who knows why? Does Malcolm deliver the news, then someone from the League follows, then Lyla gets someone from A.R.G.U.S. to check it out? Is there video that can be verified? Do they have so much evidence even without a body that it's difficult to deny? Like...it could play out so many ways. I just don't see the point in talking about OOC reactions when we don't even know what their reactions are yet.

Just because Malcolm delivers the news doesn't mean they believe him. Nyssa might come into play? Maybe she delivers Oliver's personal effects or something and there's just a stacked deck of evidence that what people are telling them is true. Maybe Felicity does look for him during the break but by the time the show comes back, she's starting to lose hope and accepts that he's gone? That would make MG's tweet technically true, since she would have looked for him over the break, but not in current time (if there's a time jump when the show comes back). I know some people just won't buy them ever believing Oliver's dead without a body, and it seems like I'm in the minority, but I don't care if they believe he's dead without a body as long as the story is compelling and somewhat entertaining, and the parts that have nothing to do with Laurel still entertain me.

I thought Mama Smoak was coming back? Someone with the show tweeted that she was.

Malcolm has the sword that "killed" Oliver, so he was near the mountain at some point - if he has footage of Oliver being stabbed through the side, coughing up blood and then being pushed off the cliff, it wouldn't be fake. So, Felicity sees that, checks the validity of the video which is real, and...then what? Are she and Diggle stupid for believing that? I mean, there's going to be suspension of belief because there's not going to be a body regardless of whatever scenario the show comes up with. Is there anything that's going to be satisfactory without them having a body? All I'm saying is that non-fake footage of a gruesome looking death? I wouldn't blame them, personally. I'm not going to get pre-emptively angry about it or call anything out of character until I actually see what happens.

How many times has Oliver survived being run through and then kicked off the side of a cliff? This will probably be the first and IF there is a video, I wouldn't fault Diggle or Felicity for buying it. That was brutal. They're going to believe he's dead without a body, so I guess that would be a preferred way for it to play out as far as I'm concerned. I'll wait to see what actually plays out before I judge.

Put me in the camp of thinking it's Laurel to Oliver regarding some Buckle disagreement. If it is Felicity to Oliver, I hope he replies with you're THE woman I love or something equally knee-weakening (since I'm a sucker for things like that).

Yeah, I think so too. Doesn't make sense that F&D would go for it without a body, but they're not going to get a body. I just want to be entertained, so if they entertain me, I'll buy into it for reasons (I do occasionally find angsty dramz entertaining, especially since I know Oliver isn't dead).

But at the end of the search, they still won't have a body, so will a search be satisfactory? Unless there is some weird way they could find a body, which seems...well, impossible. I wonder who's going to doubt that Oliver's dead? I'm trying not to get too worked up over it, because I'm expecting them to eventually accept it for dramatic reasons, otherwise what would be the point of the show "killing" him at all? Unless Oliver has a doppleganger out there, the team's never going to have a body, so...

What if he does have video, ugh. Video plus the sword...I don't know. I hate that anyone would believe him without a body for evidence, but I can see why maybe with that kind of evidence they would. Not that anyone SHOULD believe him...I'm just really interested to see how that plays out. If it was Malcolm that found him, did someone from the League not go to collect him (please let Maseo or Nyssa be the one who finds him on that cliff, please)? Will whoever goes to get him (if someone from the League does go to get him) dare to lie to Ra's, or tell him that he's gone? DOES NO ONE NEED A BODY ANYMORE? JAYSUS Also, if Malcolm is involved, I suspect we're going to get a brainwashed Oliver, or Malcolm attempting to brainwash Oliver and it not working because of magical mountain herbs or whatever. Because I just don't see a reason why Malcolm would bother nursing him back to health to be OQ - after being run through by Ra's, it'd probably be difficult for him to convince Oliver to do his bidding re: the League anymore, unless Oliver's non-death puts Thea at risk since no one "paid" for Sara's death? In which case I guess it would make sense for Malcolm to keep him off the radar for a bit, thus lying to TA about Oliver being dead. I don't know what's going on is what I'm saying. This is basically thought vomit, because it's early and I haven't had coffee yet.

Ah, I didn't even know anyone had responded elsewhere.

I'm not saying he doesn't care about it, it's just that the show has done a terrible job of showing that it was ever anything more than a) an obligation to him and b) something he thought he should get back because it belonged to his family and he squandered it away.

Maybe he'll see how devastated she is when she thinks he's dead and use that? I hope beyond hope this show surprises me.

I agree with most of what you wrote, ostentatious, except for the part about Oliver having passion for QC. As far as QC goes, all we've ever seen is that it's an obligation to him; one he couldn't even be bothered with half the time, and that he gave up without much of a fight. If he does try to get the company back, I think we need to actually see him actively caring about it. He hasn't really done that so far. ETA: I know Felicity said he cared about the people who work there, and I'm sure he does-he's not a heartless bastard, but he hasn't really done anything at all to show us that. Quite the opposite, actually.

That's why I wrote that I hoped it was a joke. :)