apinknightmare

I agree, but these people are not your average thinkers. Just two eps ago Oliver told Felicity he loved her more for drugging him to try to get him out of the League. Felicity had no qualms about shooting Oliver with a tranq dart to prevent him from turning himself over from Slade. There is a level of trust they have between each other that makes these things possible without serious long-term repercussions like you or I would probably have if our friends did this to us. Oliver asked the team to trust him. I agree that it's scary and terrible that they thought they were dying, but he tricked Ra's in order to keep them alive. When they wake up, I think they'll understand that. Well, some of them will, some probably won't. I think Diggle and Laurel are wildcards, since Dig's already pissed about Lyla and Laurel doesn't seem to trust him much anyway. I think Felicity and Ray might move past it relatively quickly.

In real life I would not forgive someone for drugging me, even if it was for my own good/safety. But this is a world where these people work on secret plans and drug each other all the time. There's a magical pit that brings people back to life. I just don't apply real life forgiveness requirements to this. In the show, I think given Oliver's situation and fears and stubbornness, everything he's done makes sense to me, and I don't see forgiveness being out of reach for him by a long shot.

Yeah it seemed like Malcolm's decision, based on his explanation. I really think he's using Malcolm as a conduit for communication because he doesn't give a shit if Ra's kills Malcolm for being in cahoots with him, but he's trying to keep Diggle and Felicity as far away from it as possible.

Honestly, that's how I prefer my TV business transactions, haha. I like that entire companies can be transferred from individual to individual with just a simple signature. So much less messy than IRL!

Yeah, I think he was looking for any kind of clue that Oliver had told her.

Yeah, we'll agree to disagree. I don't think Oliver's fully aware enough of what he's into and what Ra's is going to throw at him to be able to do more than say, "please trust me," and hope that they do.

You can look at that ep from two different angles. Because yes, they helped him, but they kept him in the dark about it and asked him to trust them and just hold his horses on trying to break Roy out because they knew Oliver's desire to get to Roy to make sure nothing went wrong would ruin their plan. What's happening here is a higher stakes version of that, only opposite. Oliver is keeping them in the dark because he knows that their desire to get Oliver out to make sure nothing went wrong would ruin his plan. Ra's CANNOT KNOW, cannot have ONE INKLING that they're in cahoots. HE WOULD KILL THEM ALL. He's working with Malcolm because he doesn't give a shit if Ra's kills Malcolm and himself if things go wrong. Tatsu's just lucky she murdered Maseo because Oliver brought them all into a trap in Nanda Parbat. Oliver himself is not sure of things - he's got to be able to think on his feet and can't be informing them of every single change. He asked them to trust him. It HAS to be enough, just like it was enough for Oliver when Felicity said that he needed to let people help him without giving him any more information than that.

Why on earth would he risk telling them what he was doing? Just like they hid their plan for Roy from him because they knew he couldn't take the chance that something could go wrong and Roy could really die, he knew that Diggle and Felicity probably would not let him go in on some long con that may or may not turn out the way he thought it would. They would INSIST on helping him, and the chance of a slip-up was too great to chance them losing their lives over. If Malcolm gets caught working with him and pays the price, to him that's a chance worth taking. He didn't tell them what was going on in NP once they got there because he was probably a little rattled that Ra's caught him in a trap, and needed to stay on his toes so he simply asked them to trust him. They have no more reason to feel betrayed than Oliver did after they revealed the plan they made to get Roy out. Oliver trusted Felicity when she said that people were trying to help him, he needed to let them, and trust them when it came to Roy because he couldn't go and just break him out of Iron Heights. Sometimes teamwork is letting everyone in on your plan, and sometimes you call on that trust when things get scary and say, "I need you to trust me," BECAUSE I HAVE A PLAN.

When he told Ra's that he would have nothing and no one to go home to, I think he really did mean that. He knew he was hurting people to try to pull this thing off, and I think that he believes that when he goes home, if he ever makes it, he really won't have anything. That's so Oliver!

I think it makes sense that he didn't tell them - the show set the foundation for it in 3x19 with the plan with Roy. They kept Oliver in the dark about the plan because they knew he couldn't bear the thought of it going wrong and would take matters into his own hands and ruin everything. Oliver told Malcolm they thought his ascension would take months. Oliver doesn't have the means to communicate with the team via traditional channels, and Malcolm knows NP better than any of them do, so it was easier for him to sneak in and out to communicate. Plus, if he got caught, I doubt Oliver would worry too much about Malcolm handling himself if he was captured. If it was Digg or Felicity, they'd kill them. Oliver wouldn't want that. The issue I have with this way of telling the story is they had to make everyone lose faith in Oliver really quickly to keep them from trying to get him back and ruining the plan, so it didn't make sense on several character levels, especially with the constant flip flopping over whether or not they'd lost him forever, but...eh. IDK. Same thing with the drugging. With someone as unpredictable as Ra's (unpredictable to Oliver, at least), it's better to just keep everyone in the dark and adjust his plans accordingly, try to make things work on the fly without having to notify anyone every time a plan changes.

I thought it was to show that she was thinking about the "little things" because she absolutely trusted that Oliver would get them out of there and was just biding her time not even worrying about it. I think it would help if we knew why he transferred it to her. Did the company have an uptick in performance after something she did, or was it some weird rich man thank you for helping him with the suit and that's the only reason he bought the company so he doesn't need/want it anymore? They really should've explained that in this ep. Hopefully when he tells her that he did it, he'll explain why. It was publicly traded, and he just signed it over to her like it was a Taco Bell franchise, haha.

Yes, yes, you are correct. My apologies!

"We went into Nanda Parbat and tried to fight the League four on one hundred and you made sure we got out alive, you asshole!"

Anyone who gives Oliver Queen a company to run is an idiot, haha.

He transferred ownership to Felicity. I read what I could of the document on pause, haha.

They calculated the risks when they decided to trust that he had a plan and go to NP to help stop the virus. They were going to the League of Assassins, they had to all know there was a chance they might not get out. Oliver had already made the decision not to tell them about his plan when he joined the League because he was worried he wouldn't be able to sell it if they were in on it (and I think that was a good idea - Felicity trying to escape with him and him going back willingly after probably did a lot to gain trust with Ra's). He told Malcolm that the timeline was WAY accelerated, so he was kind of flying by the seat of his pants. He might have wanted to tell Diggle but got cut off, he couldn't get a moment alone with Felicity because Ra's would've been on that like no one's business. He probably didn't want to tell Laurel because he she'd argue him to death, Malcolm couldn't be trusted. Maybe he could've said something to Ray. He had to act brainwashed in front of them while they were in front of Ra's and had exactly two seconds to ask them to trust him before they got locked up. The safest course of action for everyone involved to make sure Oliver had complete control of the situation was to not tell them. If he said "hey, by the way, I'm totes going to act like I'm giving you the virus but you're gonna pass out when I do, don't be scared," what do you think would've happened? Half would've trusted him, the other half would've argued against it, and probably tried something with a guard and then they all die.

She might have had an idea and was hedging her bets because what if Ra's found Oliver out? What if Oliver wasn't able to get back to them before whatever it is wore off and the guards found them out? Might as well say goodbye while you can.

Me too. I didn't tweet nearly as much as I normally would have because I was actually enthralled, haha.

I can think of one situation where Oliver has ever left one of them to the wolves, and that was Diggle with Deadshot in S1. These people know what they're into-they voluntarily do it. Please do not act like Oliver is consistently leaving them to die by playing games with their lives like he doesn't take their safety seriously. He takes calculated risks with them. He did that tonight. Oliver might not expect them to ever forgive him for what he did, but I think they will and it wouldn't upset me in the least. The other option here was, you know, THEM ACTUALLY DYING.

When they were at dinner and Ra's let it slip that he would be expecting Nyssa to have a child and she argued, he told her he was giving her as much choice as he gave her mother (or something along those lines), implying that yeah, he forced himself on her.

He let John know he was faking. He told Felicity he needed her to trust him. Seems like Malcolm's fake might've bought him enough time to switch out the vials Ra's had. Oliver was dealing with a shaky timeline, he told Malcolm as much. He didn't know what Ra's was going to do when he was going to do it. So, yeah. It's awful that they passed out thinking they were dying, but he told them as much as he could and just hoped they trusted him enough to go the rest of the way. I think the not dying is going to be key since he obviously told them the truth. I won't blame people for being angry, won't blame them if they're not. This would be true if Oliver hadn't consistently, for three years now, done everything he could to keep them out of harm's way.

^ Stop. Oliver has consistently told her that he can't be with her, and she's done her best to move on from that. He didn't sabotage any of her relationships, he never stopped her from being with anyone, he was never controlling towards her. He told her that he loved her repeatedly AND that he couldn't be with her. He wanted her to know that he loved her and wanted to be with her but didn't feel like he could. Felicity knew Oliver was sacrificing being with her because he wanted to save the city and save Thea. He was always, always open about that, just like she was open with him that if he changed his mind, she wanted to be with him. She tried to move on. She kept hoping he'd change his mind, but he never gave her any indication that he would until they were in Nanda Parbat, which they both understood to be a one-time thing. You would have a point with your argument if Oliver was frequently telling Felicity that he loved her and trying to keep her from being with Ray, or inventing excuses so she couldn't go out with him or something ridiculous like that, but he never did. And Oliver himself was having to cope with involving her in his mission but thinking he couldn't be with her the way he wanted, so he shut her out emotionally. Was it hurtful to Felicity? Yes. Is it abusive? No. He was just struggling to find a balance. Tonight he asked Felicity to trust him. She has always trusted him, he has never, ever let her be harmed. When she wakes up from whatever knocked her out, she'll realize that she still has reason to trust him. Do I expect her to get over it right away? No. But if she does I won't judge her.

He didn't talk to Felicity because Ra's knows they love each other and Oliver is betrothed to his daughter. Talking privately to Felicity is the actual WORST THING HE COULD'VE DONE. It would've put his ruse in question and put an even bigger target on Felicity's back. It was the SMART thing to do not to talk to her. ETA: Deleting my emotional abuse comments because it's a really personal subject for me and the discussion will not end well for me.

Well, they'll know it was fake when they don't die from it. They'll know he was trustworthy when he asked them to trust him.

No, it was probably because he didn't want to single Felicity out and put suspicion on her by calling her into his chambers especially since he was, you know, betrothed to Ra's daughter. Yeah, I disagree. What choice did he have exactly? He was pushing a line just telling Diggle what he did in a room he couldn't be 100% sure no one could hear him in. He sent Tatsu to help get them to NP, he put the plan in motion, he felt like he had to protect them. Maybe he thought Malcolm would betray him and didn't want to chance telling the whole group what was going on? Would it be better if he took a chance on getting found out and putting them all at risk? By keeping them in the dark, he had control of the situation, Yeah, that would be THE WORST THING HE COULD DO. He took too big of a risk even calling Diggle in, but damn. He was right not to take Felicity aside.