apinknightmare

I still hope Malcolm's working with Damien Darhk and that he's working with the team this year because his interests (and Darhk's) are aligned in order to take out Ra's. I'd like it a lot if we get these scenes with Malcolm where we're almost lulled into thinking he's a decent guy (since he didn't double-cross the team in NP) but then the show reminds us that he's a piece of shit by showing him contacting Darhk or something. That could be the semi-cliffhanger or whatever MG was talking about. If he's not working some con, I could also see him doing something shady to take over as Ra's, especially since now that Nyssa's seen what life is like outside of that organization, I want her to be able to live it a little.

I'm wondering what exactly they are? Malcolm switched out the vials of the A/O virus - I wonder if Ra's had more than one. And did Malcolm just keep the other? I need to stop asking questions.

I hope that punch leads to some heated shoving. For reasons.

For all we know she could be. I mean, she probably isn't, but I think she might've realized that Oliver was playing Ra's at the end of the last ep and they're going to work together to bring him down.

At some point this season, MG mentioned on Tumblr that Ray was going to have a connection to Jean, just not the comic one. Some people were speculating that she was his fiancee's mother or something, but they must've dropped that idea or cut the reference from the show.

No, she's still alive.

Even though they were both forced into it? Ra's told Nyssa he was going to make her suffer the pain of a thousand deaths if she didn't do it, I mean...jeez.

Her fans are vocal online, but that's a relatively small number of people related to the actual fanbase. The people who pump money into this show and do market research have got to have measurable statistics that show she's a fan favorite, regardless of what people say about her on the internet. Despite what a lot of people seem to think, they aren't increasing her presence on the Arrow and crossing her over just because a group of people get super excited about her on Tumblr and Twitter.

Please delete. It's really not worth arguing over anymore.

Not sure if they're actually trying to redeem him or if we're going to find out at the end of the finale that he's working with Damien Darhk.

No it wasn't. Even if Oliver had handed Malcolm over to the League, he'd still be in trouble. Malcolm would've threatened to show Ra's that video he had of Thea. So, Malcolm framing his sister in some convoluted scheme to kill Ra's is what got him into this mess. Based on what we know now, what exactly was stupid about his decision to work with Malcolm after he came back from NP? He was obviously given a heads up about what would be required of him to become Ra's. He got information on the drugs they'd use on him to avoid being brainwashed...failing to see the idiocy here. Never said that wasn't stupid. But he still would've ended up where he is now because Malcolm would've threatened Oliver with that video he had of Thea killing Sara. And there is no way Felicity could've deleted the video and known with absolute certainty that there were no more copies of it anywhere. Felicity and Diggle questioned his decision to work with Malcolm when he returned from the "dead" - and so far it seems as if he was right to do it.

They failed with that lesson - or just put it in there to make us suspect Malcolm, who it seems is going to turn out to be a good guy (unless we see him working with Damien Darhk at the very end of the finale). How exactly did Oliver deceive them? It's unclear at this point what exactly he went into his role as the heir knowing apart from the fact that Ra's is going to make him destroy Starling at some point and oh, he's getting that information from Malcolm, who Diggle and Felicity do not trust and also hate. Was there a plan apart from let's see what Ra's makes me do in the next 5 months? What exactly was he going to tell them? I'm working on something but I don't know exactly what it is yet, but I'm getting my info from Malcolm, so sit tight?

Not that all Oliver's stupid decisions (like the Oliver Queen vs. Arrow identity crisis) would be right, but his decision to work with Malcolm based on information that we didn't know about doesn't seem as stupid as it did at face value when he first did it.

He had already gotten Diggle and Felicity's input on him working with Malcolm. They didn't like it - but who else could prepare him for his inevitable ascension to Ra's? What on earth would the have done when they found out that Oliver was basing his decisions on information he got on Malcolm, especially when it came out that Ra's was going to make him destroy Starling? Think they would've let Oliver's plan play out, or would they have intervened? And if they wind up defeating Ra's based on help from Malcolm, all those stupid decisions he made (which now have some basis in logic now that we know what he's been doing), will be proven right.

Never said they didn't. But Oliver obviously knows they don't, and if this turns out as well as it seems it will, then it might be a step back in the right direction for Oliver and Felicity at least.

Oooh, so Malcolm switched out the vials. And Ra's isn't just using the virus he's using FOUR INSTRUMENTS OF DEATH It's so campy, I love it.

I actually wrote a big long thing in the Spoilers thread that I won't get back into here, but I actually think Oliver's keeping mum on his plan was more an issue of him thinking that Felicity and Diggle don't trust his judgment than him not trusting them. I also think he didn't have much of a plan other than that he had to trust Malcolm to let him know what was going to happen with his ascension to Ra's, which included destroying Starling. If he thought this was a five-month plan, I can see why he didn't tell them - can you imagine what would happen if he told them that he was going to have to destroy the city and that they just had to sit tight and wait to find out how and when that was going to happen based on some information that he got from Malcolm of all people?

Barry looks like such a dorky peeping Tom in this picture:

This is where I'm confused. The plane was a plant, so there wasn't anything on there, but either Ra's has two vials (one that he thought he used on TA, and one that he's using in Starling, because he does still seem to want to use it in Starling), or he knows what he gave TA was a fake and has other plans for them and only ever had one vial of the virus.

Technically that's not really a lie, because I seem to recall that question and I think the fan asked if she was getting the/her canary cry as in would she be becoming a metahuman, and so far that's true.

The more I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing winds up actually strengthening Oliver and Felicity's relationship. Crazy talk, I know, but here's why: When Oliver went to Felicity and told her that he was working with Malcolm, she (rightfully so) went off on him, because...hello! He got you into this stupid mess! Diggle didn't take too kindly to it either. But I thought at the time the "only the student can defeat the master" BS was about Malcolm teaching Oliver how to sword fight, but that was only a part of it. Malcolm also was the only one who could give Oliver the knowledge he needed about the inner workings of the League and what to expect from his initiation. Now, true, he probably didn't know he'd need that until he learned about the prophecy and by that time he and Felicity were on good terms, so I can see why he wouldn't want to open up that can of worms once he thought he *might* have to accept Ra's offer. So, Malcolm probably gives him info on what kind of drugs they use to brainwash people, giving Oliver time to build up a resistance or at least be prepared for it. Lets him know what will happen when he ascends in 5 or so months, that he's going to have to destroy Starling. He needs to know HOW Ra's plans on making him do that. He knows for sure he can't risk them trying to break him out before he finds out what Ra's is planning on making him do to destroy Starling. If he tells them Ra's plans on making him destroy Starling, how DO they wait for this plan to come to fruition? Malcolm and Oliver obviously have check-ins scheduled (or at least A check in scheduled) but their whole timeline is fucked. Malcolm decided not to tell the team about the plan because he didn't think they were good actors, but Oliver needs them to come and help with the bioweapon, so they work that out. Ra's is throwing things he didn't expect at Oliver left and right, and turns out when Oliver finally gets the team to NP he's given himself away as a mole. Thankfully Tatsu murdered Maseo so they can pawn the disloyalty off on him. Oliver has to be SUPER CAREFUL about what he says and does, so he merely tells Felicity she needs to trust him, because maybe he doesn't even know what he's going to do at this point. Oliver not telling Diggle and Felicity about his plan with Malcolm seems to me like it's not so much that he doesn't trust them, but that he knows they don't trust his judgment, especially when it comes to Malcolm. But what else can he do? No one else can give him info on the inner-workings of the League. He tells Diggle and Felicity, and they're not going to go along with it - they might even hatch up their own plan because they don't trust Malcolm and everything is ruined. Scary moment for Diggle and Felicity, thinking Oliver might be leaving them to die. But he asked them to trust him, and in the end, he's sticking to his word and he's keeping the team safe. So, I really don't see how anything he's done has given anyone (apart from Diggle, I guess) any reason not to trust him - he will ultimately succeed in getting them out of the mess he brought them into when he asked for their help. So, if Felicity's trust in him is solidified or unbroken after that, I won't be mad at it. Yes, that's right. Malcolm told Oliver he was going to have to destroy Starling to ascend to Ra's position.

Could be! Although if they're going to try to claim that this wedding is legally binding, uh...I'm gonna need more than a line to explain how that works.

I'm one of the people who has equated this with the Roy thing, and I don't think the situations are the same, but I think they can be compared, because it's basically an, "I know what I'm doing, please trust me" situation, and it proves to me that they DO have trust in each other, because they go along with this stuff despite not knowing exactly what's going on ALL THE TIME, for various reasons that don't always have to do with protecting each other (or Oliver wanting to protect his team/loved ones), but just for the basic reason of needing to "sell it."

What is different about this than any of the other plans Oliver has kept them out of but have turned out okay? Not telling Felicity about Slade. Felicity and Diggle drugging him to keep him from turning himself in. Felicity and Diggle keeping the plan to rescue Roy from prison. These people do these things to each other ALL THE TIME. I just don't see how this is any different from any of the situations before for anyone except for maybe Diggle, because Oliver went after Lyla. I mean...to me, this is just commonplace for these people now.

I think he said that just to screw with people, because the answer doesn't make sense either way, because either way they know. If it's not legally binding (and honestly, how could it be?), then they know it's not carrying into S4. If it is legally binding (which, seriously. bullshit), then it is carrying into S4.