WearyTraveler

Told ya!

Gosh! I love the media and how they'll talk out of their assess if it will get them clicks. I'm disappointed Leave won, but that doesn't mean anything in the immediate future of the already existing deals. It will take at least two years for the UK to actually leave the EU, draft new laws, pass them, put them into effect, make new trade treaties, and so much more. GOT only has two seasons left, and it will probably not take two years to film it, even though HBO will take two years to air it, because there are only 13 episodes left. So, no, the results of Brexit will not affect GOT.

LOL! Sure, if you're ever in London, let me know. We can catch a play or have a coffee.

Maybe not. They raped Lollys "half a hundred times", as Martin is so fond of reminding us every time the character or her circumstances are mentioned, but they didn't kill her. ---------------------------- Regarding Sansa, I usually don't like to comment on the character because she's one of those characters that seem to inspire extreme emotions on the love-hate spectrum, so, anything anyone says is taken way too much to heart by either side and the discussion becomes emotional, instead of rational. But, FWIW, below are my two cents, which I will precede by stating a few clarifying statements first: I'm not a book purist, I understand that TV is a different medium and that sacrifices have to be made in order to accommodate the restrictions and constraints of the venue. I might be disappointed that the writers didn't include a character or story I liked from the books, but I don't begrudge them that. Sometimes, it's necessary. What I definitely don't like and will criticize is when the writers change the essence of a character or story (see Dorne). Then, I'll probably have something to say about it. In the interest of making a full disclosure: I neither hate nor love book Sansa. She's a Stark who has gone through some horrible ordeals (I'm talking book only here) and has learned some things. As a Stark, I'm rooting for her to succeed, eventually. As a victim of Cersei, Joffrey, et.al. I want her to get justice, but to be completely honest her progression in the books frustrates me because she is sooooo sloooooow on the take (more on that later). In the same vein, I neither hate nor love show Sansa. But it seems to me that the writers are not always very successful with this character and that they will, in the interest of plot, make her do things that are out of character with show Sansa's own story so far, and (to me, a bigger crime) that are contrary to what book Sansa would do. Just so they can get "a big moment", "a shocking reveal", "a gut wrenching reaction", "a 'hell, yeah' moment", etc. And when the show does this, it's just impossible to have a good conversation about the character, her motivations and her future. I am a woman over 40 who has worked in the mostly male dominated corporate world in Latin America, the US and Europe. I have even had some projects working with local and national governments where politicking, backstabbing and plotting was the order of the day. I've done all right, some might say I've been successful, but I've never had to use my feminine guiles, or my fists, or behave like a man to do so. I don't consider myself a "girly girl", but I'm not a tomboy either. I hate pink and frilly clothing, my wardrobe is mostly neutral and solid, no patterns, no bold colors (except for a few pieces in red, which I quite like) because I am, above all, practical. Mixing and matching is easier and faster if everything is neutral and I do love the extra time I get to sleep. But I do have quite a lot of make up, and have way more shoes than I need. Growing up, I liked dolls, but I also liked cars and trains, and climbing and riding a bike. I love me some tools, and have actually done a few remodelling projects of my own in my house, but I also give myself a manicure and spend a couple of hours unable to use my hands while the polish dries. Ok, with that laid out clearly, here's my take on Sansa's actions this episode: I don't have a problem with Sansa killing Ramsey, I don't have a problem with Sansa using Ramsey's own dogs to do it, and I don't have a problem with Sansa seeing it happen. I do have a problem with her smirk/half smile after the fact for several reasons. First and foremost, it's against the essence of book Sansa who is shown to be compassionate even to her "enemies" (e.g. helping Lancel during Blackwater). Second, I have a problem with anybody enjoying killing, that's just wrong no matter what the motivation is and, again, it's against what I think is the core of book Sansa; she wants justice, she might even be turning into a person that is capable of dispensing justice, but I don't think book Sansa would enjoy killing. Ned didn't enjoy killing, he taught his children that the man who passes the sentence must carry it out precisely because he didn't consider taking a life, any life, a light thing. It should weight heavily on someone's shoulders to take a life. Jon hasn't enjoyed any of his kills in the books (or the show, for that matter), not even when he killed his worst enemies. Robb executed Karstark and didn't enjoy it for a single second; the way Catelyn describes him during and after the act is anything but happy. They see these killings as a duty, not something to enjoy. Book Arya feels guilty after her kills, when she's getting closer to Riverrun, she even wonders if her mother and Robb would want her back, after what she did. She seems to feel the release of anger and even rage when she kills (by herself or using Jaqen as proxy), but there's no true happiness or smiles about it, and she does reflect on what it means and what she's becoming. That said, book and show Arya are seriously damaged and becoming a bit frightening. I cheer that she's going back home on the show, but I do not think it's healthy that she's becoming such a cold killer. That said, she still doesn't smile or show any sign of happiness after she kills. I think book Arya hasn't smiled since she left KL, and show Arya only just recently smiled for the first time in ages after watching the play. Comparisons of Sansa to her siblings are inevitable because they grew up together, under the same roof, with the same teachers and routines, and with the same parents. The thing that frustrates me about book Sansa, as I mentioned, is how slow she is on catching on. For me, it's actually puzzling that book Sansa grew up in the same house as Jon, Robb, Brandon, Arya and even Rickon. In the books, Arya and Jon take one look at Joffrey and have him pegged down immediately for the little shit that he is. Robb is a brilliant military strategist, even though he's only 15 and has never even squired for someone in a tourney. Bran is an adventurous climber who bravely faces the arduous journey north even though he's a cripple, and Rickon is passionate, stubborn (like Arya) and rebellious. Sansa, just doesn't seem to be cut from the same cloth. I think the thing that I really disliked about her character at the beginning wasn't so much that she wanted the pretty life of the songs, the court, the ladies, the knights, the princesses and princes, but that when faced with evidence of people being untrustworthy and downright evil (Joffrey's behaviour with Arya and Micah, Cersei ordering Lady killed), she was so wrapped up in her fantasy world that she refused to see. I understand her decision to say she "didn't remember" the events of the river because she was betrothed to Joffrey, but her thought process doesn't reflect that, or it mostly doesn't reflect that. She's still thinking that "her prince" will be noble and she makes excuses for him in her head, up to the moment before he orders Ned's execution she keeps doing that. Cersei had her wolf killed, and she still went running to her when she found out Ned was planning to send her away from King's landing. Why? Why would she trust Cersei after what she did? Why would she trust Cersei over her father? Later, she finally opens her eyes, but she's still not suspicious enough. Her father gets murdered in front of her eyes, Joffrey beats her, Cersei imprisons her, Jeyne gets taken away, and she still falls for Olenna's plot to marry her to her grandson. She needs LF to tell her that people want her claim to Winterfell. In the Vale, she can't see how insane her aunt is, even though the evidence is right there in front of her eyes, until Lysa tries to kill her. Later she starts learning from LF and even guesses as to why he makes some of the choices he makes with the Lords of the Vale, but she still trusts him, a man that kissed her while he was married and is plotting and backstabbing people all the time. And she knows he's doing this, he tells her, he instructs her, and she still thinks he would never move against her or deliberately use her to achieve his own aims. Honey, if he's got no morals or qualms about manipulating everyone around him, what makes you think he wouldn't do the same thing to you? I'm rooting for her to wake up completely, I'm rooting for her to smarten up, I'm actually rooting for her to "slay the Titan" who I presume is LF, but I wish she would hurry up and see the world of Westeros for what it is already. Now, on to the Vale army and Sansa's actions this episode. I think it goes against her character not to tell Jon. I think book Sansa, once she realises who LF truly is, would not trust him anymore, just as show Sansa may not trust that he will actually come to their aid in the battle for Winterfell. But I also think book Sansa would not hold that information secret, if it can help get her home back. Neither would show Sansa because all she wants is to have her home back. I can believe that she wasn't sure about Rickon's fate when she was trying to convince Jon to help her, and that she later realised, when Ramsay threw Shaggy Dog's head at them, that Rickon was as good as dead. But I can't buy that she wouldn't tell Jon that there was a possibility of help and that she was going to check it out. It's moot to try to predict the outcome had she done so because she didn't. But I firmly believe that show Sansa, who has suffered so much and hugged Jon with heart and soul at Castle Black, who wants to get her home back, and who hates Ramsey with the force of a thousand suns wouldn't have done everything in her power to give Jon, the guy who was actually going to fight this battle, put his life on the line for her, and attempt to get her the justice she seeks, all the information he could possibly need to make that happen. The simplest explanation is that the writers wanted the surprise save from the Knights of the Vale, and so, they had Sansa acting illogically. There's no need to make excuses for the character or to try to guess her motivations, IMO. She should have told him, according to her character's progression on the show, it would make sense that she would tell him, but we couldn't have that because it would ruin the surprise save (and the gorgeous aerial shot of the Knights of the Vale smashing into Ramsey's forces), so, here we are :-/

I think the whole problem with TV Sansa is that the writers often want to have their cake and eat it too.

I believe so, because there are no other direct descendants. You go to the adjacent branches of the family tree when there are no descendants. Otherwise, the females can inherit. If, for example, Tommen had died before Myrcella, she would have been Robert's rightful heir, even if she is female. If Tommen were to die now, they have to look at other branches of the Baratheon tree to find the next heir (e.g. Robert's uncles, if he had any and their descendants). Males are before females in the direct line, but if there are no males, the direct descendant female inherits. If there are none, you move to other branches, usually working from the eldest male down.

I suppose because a book has to have a basic structure, narratively speaking. You really can't stop a story in the middle. If you look at the ending of every book, it was set-up for the continuation. I don't know that I'm explaining myself clearly. It's like having a conversation. The whole story is the entire conversation. Each book is a sentence in that conversation. You can't stop mid-sentence and expect people to understand your message. You have to finish the sentence, and then the conversation will continue with the next sentence. I hope that makes sense.

Sansa's note asked LF to ride North to aid them in battle. There were screenshots of it and some people deciphered most of it online. I understand having that opinion if you don't know what the letter actually said, but no, she asked for the army to come up and help them. Here's what the note actually said: "[…] you promised to protect me. Now you have a chance to fulfill your promise. […] Knights of the Vale are under your command. Ride north for Winterfell. Lend us your aid and I shall see to it that you are [well/properly] rewarded." Here's the link to the actual work and how a fan was able to figure it out: http://imgur.com/a/p2mfe#jzGzmx4

Yes, but the OP I was responding to expressed the opinion that Sansa didn't want LF involved until the last possible minute within the context of her actions this episode. So, I pointed out that she had, in fact, contacted him before. Brienne is the heir of Tarth. She has her own house, her own castle, her own vassal lords.... I wonder how Tormund would like living on an island

Not true. Sansa wrote to LF two episodes ago.

They did send people south with Robb in ASOS:

1) It's not just any open source wiki. These guys are so thorough that Martin invited them to write the Worldbook with him. They are obsessive to the point of sickness (which has caused many a rift in fandom, but that's neither here, nor there). In any case, if you follow the number to the footnote in the wiki, you can get the exact chapter in the books where they mentioned Ned's girl and all the other references in the quotes I posted. 2) The mountain clans in the North were isolated. They had no idea "Arya" was being married to the Boltons. They didn't support a Southerner, they supported the guy who brought them the information and was willing to fight for Ned's girl. As a matter of fact, that's the deciding point for them. They don't support Stannis because they think he's great and the saviour of the North, they supported Stannis, because he mentioned the Arya situation. Otherwise, he would have got nothing. And that is made very clear in the books. The mountain clans provided 3,000 men (all their strength) to go rescue Ned's girl, not to help Stannis gain his kingdom back. That's an important difference, IMO. In ASOS, Bran is helped by a Liddle, who pretty much guesses who he is because of the direwolf. In that chapter we learn about the isolation of the mountain clans and how they barely ever got involved in Northern politics, but we also learn how Ned used to go visit them and honor them. All of which we are reminded of when Jon advises Stannis. It is for Ned and the loyalty they feel to him that the mountain clans come down to fight, not for the Southern Lord. They didn't before because they had no idea that "Arya" was a prisoner. 3) I didn't include the quote from Lady Dustin to say she supported the Starks, but to give you the assessment of someone who supports Roose and is saying that the support of the other houses is still with Ned. She's extremely bitter about that. And as the quote before that says, even Roose is suspicious that the support he has from the Northern houses is tenuous. The whole reason for marrying Ramsay to "Arya" is to quench the winds of insurgency that Roose knows are rising. The only thing keeping the other houses at bay are the hostages the Freys have. One gets the feeling when reading that the Northern houses are just waiting for an opportunity to strike, which is why Roose is so adamant in marrying Ramsay to a "Stark". Roose is not stupid. He knows he doesn't really have the support of all those Northern houses. He knows that they are only pretending to be with him but secretly still honor bound to the Starks. As to what else they could have done, well, Manderly explains it very well to Davos: until they have a Stark to rally around and the proper opportunity, they won't risk it. They may be loyal to the Starks, but they are not stupid. The point is, in the books, the Northmen were not the fervent Bolton supporters we saw on the show.

There's also this conversation between Lady Dustin and Theon: And this entry in Jayne Poole's bio:

I'm not going to go through the text in my kindle, so, AWOIAF will have to suffice (emphasis mine): See also, from the same website:

Before the battle they were camping in exactly the same place where Stannis and his army were camping. Davos went for a walk the night before the battle, after he confessed to Tormund that he could never sleep before a battle and that all he did was walk. While he strolls he sees the remnants of a pyre like the ones Melisandre uses to burn the people she sacrifices to R'hllor. In the ashes he sees the half burnt and broken stag. Not hard to put 2 and 2 together after that.

Not true, Jon advises Stannis on how to talk to the Northern houses and all the mountain clans are with him, running to Winterfell to save "Ned's Girl". There are passages describing how much better the Northerners were dealing with the massive amounts of snow in comparison to Stannis' mostly southern army. We don't really know how the whole thing shakes down in the books, or even if Ramsey's pink letter is real, but if Stannis loses, it will be because of the snows and the weather, not because he lacked men. Jon told him exactly what to say and how to behave with each house and he got them. The Manderlys are the ones we most remember because of the smart long game Manderly was playing and because of Frey Pie (it's kind of hard to forget Frey pies), but the other houses were still supportive of the Starks and answered the call.

I think Jon is probably talking about all the houses that didn't join them when they fought the Boltons, and whose lords may have perished in battle (like the Umbers), plus the Lannisters, plus the Lannisters' friends, plus the Freys. If/when the other Northern Houses accept Jon and Sansa as their rulers, then Jon can relax (a little).

They were only a week away two episodes ago. If you recall, Dany was heading back to Meereen followed by the Khalassar when she stopped and asked Daario how far away they were. He said about a week. That's when Drogon showed up and she made her speech.

Umber-

They mean Rickon should zig-zag while running away, so as to be a more difficult target to hit.

Comments like the one I bolded above in the book thread always puzzle me. In the show Ned was portrayed more naïve than in the books, and now the show made Jon more reckless than he's ever been in the books, where he's a pretty good strategist and commander in battle. And it's all because of Ned. Robb didn't lose a single battle either, and his strategies were admired even by Tywin, who didn't think Robb would be smart enough to act the way he did. In Jon and Robb's POV chapters we see them remembering the battle lessons Ned taught them and winning battles because of it. Ned himself was a respected battle commander who broke the siege of Storm's End and helped Robert win many battles on his way to the Iron Throne, and also during the Greyjoy rebellion. I get that the show dumbs these characters down in order to get the "big" moments they want, but, as a book reader, I would never say it's because they were raised by Ned. They must have some people left because when they start fighting the Walkers, there won't be some secret army stashed away somewhere to save the day. It's all of Westeros against the dead. Essos and the other continents in this world are lucky that it's the Westerosi having to face the WW and not them. Yeah, I don't think Jaimie told anyone either, but they have to have someone talk about this before the next episode, I'm guessing, and since Jaimie couldn't have this conversation again with Brienne (been there, done that) or anyone else (who's he going to tell? Bronn?); they have Tyrion, who has had very little to do this season remind us of the wildfire while counseling Dany and establishing that she knows her father was a psycho pyromaniac. I agree. I think she won't give him what he wants, though. The battle scenes were gorgeous, the aerial shots were amazing, Jon almost suffocating was excruciating...but the whole Sansa and the Vale army plot was contrived for the sole purpose of having the surprise saving. I think the writers thought we'd be happy because Sansa was saving the day, but they only succeeded in confusing the audience as to her motives.

Yes, she did

So much happened in this episode... Jon beating Ramsey to a pulp was beyond awesome. The Direwolf banner unfurling over Winterfell? I got tears in my eyes!

Where did you read that? I've been looking, but I can't find this news. Only the news about the two previous leaks (episodes 5 and 8)

After watching this episode, I remain firm in the theory I put forth in the episode 10 thread that the voice over at the beginning of the season is the Machine talking to Samaritan.