PhilMarlowe2

Rewatch the first few episodes of season 10 - it was most definitely Shannon cringing that Vicki was making up with Tamra. She even said something to Vicki about it later, "you were holding hands with her!" Lizzie was actually the one who was open and friendly to Tamra at the first party - Tamra even commented on how much she enjoyed being with Lizzie and how Shannon wouldn't talk to her. Again, Shannon herself said that the cancer scam ironically brought her closer to Heather and Tamra. I'm not making this up, it is straight from her mouth on camera.

Shannon definitely was not friends with all of them at the start of her second season. She was horrified when Vicki was making up with Tamra at the Mexican fiesta party (she actually huddled in a corner with Lizzie and despaired over the fact that they were holding hands), she did not want Tamra being brought back into the group. And Shannon did not get along with Meghan for the first half of the season. Shannon slowly started to come round when Heather and Tamra rallied around her after being dis-invited from Meghan's party, but even Shannon acknowledged at the end of the season that it was the Vicki/cancer debacle that ironically brought her closer to Tamra and Shannon (she said so at the same lunch where she disclosed David's affair to them).

I think a big part of her mending fences with these people though - especially Meghan - has been as an act of collusion against Vicki. It's actually a huge part of why I started to change in my feelings toward her. I think Shannon thrives on the energy of having a common enemy. Have you seen the preview of the upcoming episode where the ladies navigate who is going to sit where at Peggy's function? You can see Shannon (and Tamra) deliberately calling Michael Dodd over to sit with them so that Kelly ends up at their table (and not with Vicki). I firmly believe that if Shannon and Lydia suddenly found themselves angry at the same person, Shannon would have new feelings toward Lydia. Do I think this is conscious on Shannon's part? No. I believe that she believes that she is turning the other cheek and finding new ground with previous foes. But I think what is really driving it is how much she gets off on colluding against the people she feels has wronged her. Shannon wants to punish. She can deny it all she wants, but deep down she's a punisher for sure.

The sad thing is that Shannon started out with much more self-reflection when she joined the show. She said she expected David to see himself on TV and understand how their marital problems were his fault, but then when she watched the show, she realized that she in fact played a huge part in their problems. She was also very quick to apologize - sometimes unnecessarily so - to Heather in their various disagreements. But it's like this show has brought out and exacerbated the worst in her. It feels like she is clinging to the show, and clinging to her unresolved rage, and in that place, she is losing her grip on some of those initial core virtues that made her likeable (to me, anyway). Meanwhile, she still thinks of herself as this fair, honest person who never lies. But there has been some major emotional dishonesty and hypocrisy from Shannon over the last four seasons.

Further proof this show is no good for Shannon. She just sinks lower and lower.

I think she's willing to see her flaws to a point. Shannon has definitely dug her heels into the ground on a number of occasions and not taken ownership of certain things. I think when Shannon holds a grudge against someone, she can be quite vindictive and she'll find every/any reason to vilify them, and that, to me, does not qualify as good intentions.

I would actually be very interested in a show about Kelly's REAL life - not the front she creates for Bravo cameras. It feels like she is living a modern day James M. Cain novel filled with violent affairs, lovers and boozers under the California sun.

Yeah, it's why I roll my eyes every time Shannon exclaims, "I can't just stand being accused of something so off-base!" Um, Shannon, it wasn't "so off-base" - you admitted you were squeezing legs in a juvenile way, just not toward Lydia, but toward Peggy. It's not beyond the realm of comprehension that when you're squeezing legs and whispering about someone at the table that someone else might mistake the meanness as being directed toward them. But Shannon is relentlessly dramatic - heaven forbid there be a misunderstanding without it being the Crime of the Century perpetuated against her.

I didn't mind Shannon's confusion but why did she have to dramatically declare that she was "upset" about it as soon as Peggy went to the bathroom? Upset? Really? It's this kind of dramatic flair that has many of the women feeling like Shannon always has to be the center of attention. And then they all laugh at Vicki being a drama queen...

Because motherhood is super hard, didn't you know? How much of the lunch do we think they spent bitching about Vicki?

There is one in Season 4 as well, when Woodchuck wins the election: "Hooray for Woodchuck! And if he doesn't win write so sorry Woodchuck"

Ah, yes, I do remember that now. I think because they presented Beatrice's memories as sometimes hazy and a conflation of past/present characters, I initially assumed that scene between her and Bojack to be an instance of her mental distortion. But the scene did end up playing pretty straightforwardly - I was also watching late at night, so I was a little hazy myself. I think also because most of the flashbacks were so far back in the past, I assumed all of the Beatrice stuff was "older" than the last 20 years.

I'll never forget this one lunch in Season 10 when Heather made such a show of knowing one of the waiters by name. She literally said his name at every opportunity. "Alfredo, how are you? This is Alfredo, our favorite waiter!" "Alfredo, a round of bread for the ladies!" "Alfredo, Shannon will have a grey goose vodka with a side of limes!" I figured anyone who goes that far out of their way to show how she is so "in" with the wait staff must actually be the most out of touch, most patronizing person possible. I imagined Alfredo secretly hated her.

I have a friend who works on the show and he talks like there is definitely going to be a 5th season. The only thing I've heard is that next season will explore Todd's asexuality a lot more. I was a little confused about the math of all of this - wasn't Hollyhock 17 years old? Isn't Bojack in his 50's? When was she conceived? I was under the impression this all happened when Bojack was still young? Or did I make that up? It definitely occurred to me that Henrietta would be Hollyhock's mother, but then I dismissed it because the timeline seemed off.

I do remember having some reservations about her self-described friendship whispering ways and while I sooooo appreciated her standing up to insufferable Heather, I did kind of give her the side eye for how offended she got over what seemed to be a fairly benign blog post (this was her argument with Heather at the reunion). But I don't remember any of the shit stirring that she does now. And what I do remember is how calmly and strongly she stood up to Slade when he made his obnoxious "eat a cheeseburger" comment. That whole exchange kind of made me love her at the time. I also loved how over it she was when Gretchen and Heather made such a big deal about being left behind during the infamous trip to Andele's. She seemed more down-to-earth back then - snarky, yes, but not to the point of being so smug and full of herself.

Tinsely at least seems like a nice person with a basic sense of decency. Gretchen? Comes off like a total snake in the grass. Out for herself at all costs, but hides behind this pretense of niceness and even victimization. I actually find Gretchen somewhat fascinating because I think there is something pathological about her. Remember her weird sexualized relationship with her Dad in Season 4?

Oh, I agree with you that Vicki has done herself no favors in how she handled all this. If Vicki were remotely emotionally or socially intelligent, she could have handled all of this in a way that ultimately kept her friendships intact. Going on the aggressive defensive was not the way to go, and Vicki has very much been her own worst enemy. That said, did Tamra truly apologize for her behavior that we saw? I mean, did she ever cop to making up the lie about Terry Dubrow wanting to take the Beadors down? Did she ever cop to trying to paint Shannon as an alcoholic? Did she ever admit to trying to make it seem like Shannon was having a psychotic break? Did she ever admit to how severely she gaslit Shannon (grabbing her face and cornering her when Shannon repeatedly told her she wanted to be left alone)? I never saw Tamra genuinely take responsibility for her awful behavior that season. I saw her squeeze out a few crocodile tears about how hard her year had been, using Sidney as a prop excuse for why she was not in a good place, maybe she gave some blanket apology, but I don't think she ever took genuine self-responsibility. And I really do believe that what brought Shannon and Tamra closer was their mutual stand against Vicki. Shannon can try to paint it otherwise, but that's my conclusion based on what we've seen on the show. This is part of why it's so hard for me to take Shannon's anger seriously - in one breath, she is raging against Vicki's moral failings, but then in the next breath she is extolling the friendship virtues of...Tamra Judge? Really?

The shedding struggle is real. Lint brushes and my housekeeper are my best friends. From a ratings perspective, the Brooks/cancer season was an all-time high for OC. Personally, I think Shannon is the one who needs to go. Her grudge against Vicki is what's dividing the cast and bringing the show down. Were it not for her, Vicki and Tamra would have already made up by now and the show would be on to new storylines.

My rescue is a Golden Retriever mixed with Corgi, so he's like a Golden with little legs. He is so sweet but has the sass of a Corgi! I of course have a total soft spot for Goldens now :)

Gretchen always dressed like she was going to a murder mystery costume party.

So it was revealed on WWHL that Heather had unfollowed all of the cast members on social media. I guess that settles any question of whether she left voluntarily or was fired...

Vicki.

Shannon is getting really slammed on Twitter.

Because Vicki is a tone-deaf idiot when it comes to self-perception and how she comes off. I truly believe she thought that Kill All Cancer would redeem her in people's eyes.

I think the answer is that Vicki was desperate for things to work out with Brooks. She thought she loved him, she left Donn for him, she wanted the world to love him. It's like Luann with Tom - the more people questioned Brooks, the harder she dug her heels into the ground. Vicki simply would not roll over on Brooks no matter what. Of course she at some point knew/suspected he was lying, but I think she was going to keep her blinders on as long as humanly possible. Remember, this is a woman who stayed with him after he was caught telling Ryan that he should beat Briana to keep her in line. If that doesn't make you dump your boyfriend, what will...?