PhilMarlowe2

I'm not confusing anything with anything - these are all matters of personal opinion. I find Vicki storylines more interesting than the other cast members. I don't find Tamra doing Spartan Race all that interesting, I don't find Shannon's buttermilk chicken breasts all that interesting, I don't find Meghan's modeling career all that interesting, or Kelly's vaginal rejuvenation. By contrast, I don't mind the family scenes with Vicki and her kids, I think she is likeable as a grandmother, I am morbidly fascinated by her creepy son-in-law, and I actually find her insurance business interesting because it's real work, which is so rare on this show. Granted it might be damning with faint praise, but I just think Vicki's life - her romances, her family, her work - is way more interesting than the other women that they cast, and I simply cannot imagine this show if it were, say, Lizzie or Gretchen in her place. Again, this is my opinion. As far as the morality of Vicki being on the show after the cancer scam, I just feel like if Tamra can continue to be on this show after basically trying to get Gretchen sexually assaulted, there's really no going lower.

Again, I think mileage varies on this, because I personally find Vicki very interesting to watch. Always have, always will. In fact, she is my most favorite housewife of all the franchises. Not because I "like" her per se, but because I find her fascinating to watch - her narcissism, her neediness, her tackiness, her good grandma-ness, her work ethic, her destructive life choices, her whoop-it-up-ness, her complete lack of shame/censor ("I want to punish them for not being my friends"), all of it. I also do find her funny. Both to laugh at her - "Family Van!" - but, yes, also with her - the few times I have laughed out loud this season have come from Vicki's comic timing, her dry "You have a beautiful store" when Kelly was talking loudly about her own vagina and even her talking head jab, "I'm flattered that Shannon thinks of me when she's eating too much and not working out." Obviously, not everyone will agree on every cast member, but Vicki works for me. That said, I agree with you that the problem is now that two of the women refuse to film with her, and it is ruining this season. For me, the solution is not to get rid of Vicki. I mean, seriously, who is left without her? Are any of these women central to the show in the way that you described? I think Shannon can be funny and likable, but she doesn't have anyone right now to play off in a fun way (like LVP has Kyle). I don't think Tamra can be the star of the show. I think OC is simply adrift right now. Personally, I cannot imagine how dry and boring this show would be without Vicki.

They actually did try to keep Jacqueline around - they offered her a friend role with possible upgrade to full time depending on how the season went. Jacqueline turned it down though. Which is just to say that I do think they try to keep the lighting rods for drama around as long as humanly possible! The trouble with the OC, though, and mileage obviously varies on this, but personally I just don't think there's a show without Vicki. I truly believe Vicki is more essential to the success of the OC than Nene was to Atlanta or Jill/Bethenny was to NYC. On those other shows, there were other strong personalities who had stuff going on, there were other anchors. You had Kandi, you had Kenya, you had Ramona, etc. With OC, whom do you have? Yeah, Shannon is a pretty strong personality but she has shown barely any signs of fun since her friendship ended with Vicki. And she never has much to do outside of her OTT reactions to other people. And Tamra? Is she interesting in her own right? She just seems to exist as a plot device for drama. Can you imagine if they took Vicki out, and you had a cast that included Shannon, Tamra, Peggy, Lydia, Meghan and Kelly? Is that an ensemble? Or swap in any of the past housewives - Lizzie, Alexis, Gretchen, Lynn, Peggy v.1 - I feel like there hasn't been a single other "star" on this show aside from Vicki. They would seriously need to get someone vivacious and dynamic to replace Vicki. But the rate at which they've going recently (Meghan, Kelly, Peggy v.2), it seems like there is not a lot of TV gold out there in the OC.

I agree that Shannon has a legitimate issue with David if he has a new "mistress" in fitness - but it's the choice to emasculate him in front of friends, to nag him and to perpetually be miserable that makes it hard to sympathize with her. It feels like her default is to bitch and moan rather than to constructively cope and resolve.

I see Tamra in the exact same way. I think she is someone who knows how to live within her means. Even the gym - as misguided or badly executed as it might be (not speaking from factual knowledge, I have no idea whether Cut Fitness is successful or not - it certainly seems to be mostly empty on the show) - was Tamra's hope to create something successful that could continue to support her long after the show is over. Tamra seems to be in financial reality. She has also said that Andy likes her because she is a good employee - she never complains or gets demanding, etc - and I believe her. I think Tamra knows which side of her bread is buttered and she wants to keep her job. Have you see Lydia's high school photos? She was actually very pretty when she had a fuller face.

Shannon was totally lying when she insisted that she was shocked and embarrassed by her friend's digs at Kelly at the 70's party - if you watch the episode, Shannon actually pulled her friend aside and asked her for the gossip in hushed tones. Shannon then supported her friend by declaring, "You keep it real!" I love how Shannon is always proclaiming, "I don't lie!" It reminds me of Brandi on RHoBH - put yourself out there as the truth teller too much, and it will always come back to bite you in the ass.

This is why I think they probably should have kept Heather. It pains me to say it, because I couldn't stand Heather, and every time I see a clip of her pretentiousness in action, I am so glad she's gone. But she really was the only believable link between these two factions, she is the only one who could have spoken to Tamra with any authority on the topic, and I think she would have done her job like a good producer's darling.

Personally, I don't necessarily believe Peggy - but I also don't necessarily believe her brother. Wasn't he recently charged with fraud? I feel like we can't really know what's going on with this family and it is possible the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It doesn't speak well of her brother that he is blabbing about all of this to the press, though I do understand how, if true, he would be upset. It is especially weird that Mauricio's mother is involved in this somehow. To me, it just feels hasty to assume the brother is completely telling the truth.

This is why I don't want Vicki off the show - she is the only one who has been consistently interesting as a character to me. Not that I like her as a person, I just find her life interesting. I can't really say the same for any of the others.

FWIW, Kelly has said she heard about Heather getting demoted from the other women, so the rumor didn't originate from Kelly herself. I don't exactly trust Kelly as a source, but it would seem OTT dumb to publicly say she heard it from the other women if they never said it. No one has come out to deny it. Not really on topic, but interestingly enough, Michelle Pfeiffer did a huge research deep dive into Ruth for the HBO movie and is convinced that she genuinely didn't know anything - or at least not to a point of being criminally liable. I wonder what Michelle would make of Ms. Gunvalson!

I have no doubt they see what is on the internet, but I think the bar is so low at this point for what constitutes decent people in this universe - I mean, when you have grifters like the Curtins, deadbeat dads like Slade, bullshit artists like Gretchen, several cheaters, and God knows what else - I think there is a wide berth they all give each other when it comes to basic morality. Which means it really says something that Brooks was the lowest of the low.

Wait, so it is going to be at least 9 episodes before Tamra and Vicki finally have some sort of sit down? How long can they drag this out for.........?

I'm actually shocked that Sonja and Luann voted for Trump. Especially Luann.

Yes, and when Vicki confronted her about it, Tamra was all, "I was just talking shit like girlfriends do! I didn't mean for you to say anything about it!" It was clear, to me anyway, that Tamra was sending a lot of mixed signals. You even see it in the season finale - after going on and on about how Vicki wouldn't butt out of her marriage, whom does Tamra go running to after she announces she wants a divorce? Vicki! Crying into her shoulder about Simon. That's actually on camera! Who knows what she was doing/saying to Vicki off camera? Generally I agree with this, but I don't find anything fun or likeable about the friendship between Tamra and Shannon. I agree that they are close, but I also agree with the other poster that it is a closeness largely based on colluding against a common enemy (Vicki). Shannon has done such a complete turnaround on Tamra that it's often difficult for me to take their relationship at all seriously. I mean, I get giving people another chance - but the way that Tamra went from being so hated to so embraced, and the way Vicki went from being so embraced to so hated, Shannon really seems to move in major extremes. I would seriously like to see what happens if their friendship imploded on the show. That said, I do kind of wish Heather were still around because I actually think she would be a better, more organic bridge between Vicki and the others than Lydia or Peggy.

Ha, I can see it now - RHOC season 15: "Four years ago, an allegation was put out there about their father and none of us knew if it was going to destroy us as a family! Eating disorders are all about control - and my daughters' need for control? Is Vicki Gunvalson!" ETA Affordable, healthy food is not exactly a new or novel concept. Also, while I won't knock the good intentions of wanting to make healthy food more affordable, is the OC really the place where a business like this will make the most impact? I don't really think of it as a place where a lot of people are struggling to the point where they can't afford healthy food.

Re: the previews, wasn't it Kelly who called Tamra the new puppet master? But now she is saying that it is Vicki who thinks Tamra gets in Shannon's ear? We have someone thrown under the bus! This episode was the first time I actively saw Eddie enable Tamra. "It was nothing you did," re: why Sidney doesn't talk to Tamra. Yea, Eddie, I am sure Tamra is 100% blameless in the situation.

He seems very creepy to me when he is on the show - he always has this wide, nervous smile on his face like he is hiding something.

I think the show should have probably ended after season 3, and definitely after season 5. Seasons 4 & 5 had their bright spots - namely, the episodes that Joss wrote and directed - but I thought seasons 6 & 7 were abysmal. Not even the musical episode worked for me. The show was a former shell of itself and I'm always in a bit of shock that other viewers not only tolerate those last two seasons, but seem to regard them as anywhere remotely close to the greatness of the first three seasons. To me, the show was genuinely GREAT seasons 1 - 3, hit or miss 4 - 5, and then actively awful 6 - 7.

But Meghan made it her storyline, which I thought was so gross and awkward. I mean, she literally dragged Hayley onto the beach to film a scene with her where she was all, "Vicki's mother died and it made me realize that soon you will be the one whose mother has died..." I mean, what in the ever-loving fuck? How could Meghan ever think it would be productive to exploit her step-daughter's mother's death for TV time? Or how she used LeeAnn's cancer to justify her "concern" for Brooks when we already saw her gossipping about how "Brooks doesn't have cancer." I don't totally hate Meghan at this point, but she has proven more than once that there is something off about her. I won't ever forget how she waited a long time to tell Shannon that their four other cast mates were involved in a major car accident. I mean, that was just completely bizarre. Or how she then totally threw Tamra under the bus, literally crying to Vicki how angry she felt about Tamra's recklessness with the RV - when she had just previously been turning a skeptical eye to Vicki's hospital selfies with Shannon. Girl is not all there, IMO.

My problem in this case, though, is that Tamra ISN'T a decent human being. So, it's just very difficult to feel any sympathy for her as she gets so self-righteous over Vicki "going after family." Tamra has ALWAYS gone below the belt and hit people where it will hurt the most. For her to be this bent out of shape because Vicki mentioned to Kelly that there were gay rumors about Eddie at a time when they were still estranged as friends is just Tamra looking for an excuse to be on a high horse (IMO, of course).

That baby shower was an all-time Housewives moment. Ah, those were the days when I could still enjoy Phaedra, long before she revealed herself to be a spiteful, mean-spirited woman with almost no conscience to speak of...

Ha, glad you like it. I honestly couldn't think of anything clever or quippy for her, so I settled for the direct approach.

Shannon has always been this way. In the season 9 reunion, Heather pointed out that Shannon was in Vicki's ear on the way back from Bali urging her not to forgive Tamra or mend fences with her - same thing in the Season 10 premiere, she was whispering in the corner with Lizzie horrified that Vicki might be giving Tamra another chance. No one holds onto a punishing grudge like Shannon. Except she did it with Tamra and Heather who were pretty awful to her. And why? Because she had a new common enemy in Vicki. I think she is an angry person who is always holding a grudge toward someone.

She was truly shocked and horrified!

The homophobia thing is not a good look for sure, though I do question the motives of Mauricio's mother for being so vocal about all of this. Isn't she a psychologist? It's slightly strange, publicly reactive behavior for a mental health professional. As far as what we have seen ON THE SHOW thus far, I don't mind Peggy and what she brings to it. However, I do find it strange that they would cast a woman who really doesn't seem to speak English very well. I love seeing other cultures depicted on HoWives, but Peggy's language seems to be a barrier in really forming bonds with the other women. It's strange.