CherithCutestory

But last season they barely had to interact with the main four. The exceptions were the swinging couple, who nailed it again this season, and Vicky, who will be the first to tell you she is an excellent capital A Actor. The rest of them only interacted with them for short periods of time and seldom one on one. Most of them were just in the background. Last season the whole point was that the four were supposed to torture each other. The demons were just there to setup little scenarios for them to do so. This season the demons have to pick up the heavy lifting (but not biting). And they are out of their depth. Also, a lot of them were great. Chidi's two soulmates were good at their parts. I think I fell in love with Angelique a little bit, myself. And Glen was great/horrible as always. Definitely! He's made a huge mistake by not giving in and giving her a better "role". She'll be gunning for him now. And that he didn't tell Shawn isn't too hard to figure out. Fake Eleanor is a lot like Real Eleanor. Also, her being annoyed that she doesn't get to torture Chidi was the best. Yes, absolutely. And the picture of her sister was way too much. I do understand what Michael is going for, that she's too phony to ever admit she hates her sister and that house. But this is paradise and she's miserable. She's not an idiot. She knows that's off. Similarly, Jason, who is an idiot, had incentive to keep quiet much of last season. Tahani may have annoyed him but she is still crazy hot. And he had his budhole to blow off steam. Why would this Jason stay in that yurt more than a day? Michael is being way too over-confident that it was the note that unraveled everything. Tahani didn't know anything about the note. She unraveled all on her own within a day. Jason didn't know anything about the note. And he started talking. And some of the stuff Eleanor figured out was nothing to do with the note. She knew people were trying to get her drunk. And Eleanor being Eleanor she won't do anything if she thinks someone wants her to do it. She knew her soulmate was off. She automatically felt a connection to Jason. Even after she figured it out twice Michael is still greatly underestimating Eleanor here. Also, I don't think he reset Janet again. She brought Jason to Eleanor not because of any note.

In the first episode they made it clear that only the best of the best get into the Good Place. It's not enough to be a basically decent person. You have to actively achieve enough points to get into the Good Place. I think we can take the point system as true because Janet is privy to it and she isn't in on the lies. The question isn't "what did Chidi do to deserve this" but "what did Chidi do deserve to be in the Good Place?" And the answer is not a whole lot. He was so in his own head that he never ended up actually helping a single person before he died. And his selfishness lead to the people around him being hurt. And being worried about his own morality even when he's told repeatedly that it annoys everyone around him is selfish. Obviously he's basically a good guy. But that's just not enough in this world. But they say at first that no one religion was totally right. So, I think it's dangerous to assume it's a very strict heaven v. hell dynamic. Not even all Christians believe that. Catholics are taught that a few people are sent right to heaven and a few right to hell but most souls suffer punishment in purgatory to expunge their sins before moving on to heaven (or being cast into hell.) I don't think any of us should assume the Good Place=heaven and the Bad Place=hell as a straight dynamic. Totally, I loved this plot point and how they explored it. On the surface, last season Tahani got the perfect afterlife. The huge mansion and perfect clothes meant she could throw parties and be admired. A Buddhist monk demonstrated that she really was a spiritual person. Otherwise why would she land such a soulmate? She even had Eleanor to feel superior to. She couldn't really say anything or be openly disgruntled because it would reflect poorly on her if she couldn't get along with a forking monk. This time she has nothing to cling to. Maybe she, Eleanor and Chidi are tri-soulmates. All three belong together! Except for poor Michael it's turning out have the opposite impact. Eleanor/Chidi/Tahani only make each other better with just a little torture of each other along the way. In reality they are each others' karass like in Cat's Cradle rather than each others' hell.

I also just binged and what a great show. I knew the broad twist but it really didn't ruin anything. Something I thought was interesting is the one Michael initially really seemed intent on torturing was Tahani. Eleanor was our POV so it sort of seemed all about her. But it wasn't. In the early episodes Michael really seemed to put the extra effort into getting to Tahani. Letting her see her points, throwing wrenches in her parties (like his retirement party), asking her to help be his assistant (so a task that wasn't just planning parties, although she shifts that to Eleanor), making sure she knew she didn't help the sink hole situation at all. He did it to Chibi too (with his thesis and new hobbies) but there were several episodes where he most seemed to be picking on Tahani, in retrospect. I also wonder if Tahani was supposed to realize that she didn't belong there. But she never did. Until the end. It was her and Jason that Michael first went on and on about there being something wrong and out of place to. He had to know Jason is too oblivious to care. So, that had to be mostly targeted at her. Really with Eleanor he did the big guilt trips of her messing up the universe. Knowing she always feels bad about being a dirtbag (we see that in her flashbacks) but never enough to change or even own up to it. He never intended to make her help the investigation (that was supposed to be Tahani.) Mostly he seemed to genuinely like her more than any of them. Although since he his evil his seeming to like her more can cut either way... At the end of the day, Eleanor is the only one who was consistently willing to sacrifice herself for everyone else from the moment she heard Shawn's message. And earlier when she confessed to help Chibi's paralyzing guilt. So, I have to think she deserves to be in the Bad Place less than any of them despite being a garbage person in real life. Chibi and Tahani definitely don't deserve it either. But neither were particularly eager to sacrifice themselves for everyone else either. I know you can argue they shouldn't have to because they deserved to be there. But we know they didn't deserve to be in the Good Place and, in fact, weren't there. It never occurred to them that they weren't all that much more worthy than Eleanor. Which means Eleanor was also the only one who never felt that she deserved to be there. She consistently thought she should be in a Medium place. Tahani and Chibi were shocked they didn't belong. And Jason still didn't get that he hadn't earned his place in heaven even though he knew he wasn't who they claimed. I think Eleanor grew so quickly because she was the only one working with a truly realistic view of who she was. She didn't have a lot of self-delusions to knock down to get to the point of realizing she needs to be better. If we take the reveal at face value (which I don't think we should) the point system is even more insane than we initially thought. The only one of those four people who really deserves a spot in the Bad Place is serial arsonist and DJ Jason. Like some others I think there is a bit more going on. But I do think Michael is "sincere" in his desire to torture all of them. I just think it's more like a purgatory concept. Pain and suffering but the chance of redemption. I just refuse to believe a "God" like being at the center of this could create something as perfect as Janet but also be this cruel.

Because she was such a legend and because her performance was genuinely better. (I'm a huge Anne Bancroft fan but Bette Davis does something no other actor would have done with Jane. She made her likable and sympathetic.) Oldtime favorites of the Oscars are always major contenders. It was the same reason Joan's lack of a nomination was genuinely felt as a snub. Even though it was a genre picture and her role was generally passive. He was on WTF with Marc Maron last year and he was asked if he ever thought of remarrying. And he just said no he had a wife and it was Anne (paraphrasing.) It was very sad but sweet. I don't think there was anything that even remotely suggested she deserved what Joan did. At all. At no point in this did Joan not return and escalate whatever Bette may have thrown at her. Joan is the one who put her back out intentionally. Joan is the one who spread gossip about her in the tabloids (something Bette refused to do even after it was done to her and Hedda came to her house.) Joan is the one who continually pressed on Bette's insecurities about her looks (something she clearly knows is a sore spot even if Bette attempts to play otherwise.) In all of that they were tit for tat. I'm not saying Bette is the victim in any of that as she gave back but it was clearly equal if not Joan going a bit too far with Hedda. Bette is also the one who told Joan she thought that when she was good she was damn good. Which is all Joan had wanted to hear from anyone and especially Bette. And was clearly sincere, as everything Bette says is sincere. Nothing Bette did deserved this escalation. Except genuinely being better at her job. That's all Joan was pissed about. She wasn't upset at something Bette had said or did. She was upset that Bette really did deserve it more.

I agree with most of this. But it is a little misleading. Many of the leading men of their era had died. Clark Gable's last role before he died was as a love interest to Marilyn Monroe. If Joan or Bette had a role seducing Montgomery Clift or Tony Curtis it would have been played as pathetic and sad ala Sunset Boulevard. I do think women generally have it worse than men in Hollywood. Obviously. No woman could have had Cary Grant's later career. Or even Humphry Bogart's (who only became leading male status when he was older.) However, it is true, that Joan Crawford and Bette Davis, especially, aren't the best examples of the disparity. Bette Davis's career was similar to or exceeded many of her contemporary male actors, really. The quality of roles may have gone down and she may have gone onto TV but she was never out of work. However, Bette Davis was a much better actor than most of her contemporary male actors and no woman would ever have been allowed to still be sexy the way male actors were. Also bad examples of this? Joan Blondell (who worked pretty steadily) and Olivia de Haviland (who basically had the luxury of working when she felt like it.) The overall phenomenon they are describing was true. But really none of their examples are spot on. And it got much worse through out the 70s and 80s. Bette Davis had the famous line about Joan being a movie star and she being an actor. And Joan, herself, had suggested the same thing (how Franchot Tone saw Bette Davis as an amazing actor but never a woman, unlike herself.) I think the difference between the two is that while it is no picnic for either to be aging in the industry. It's much, much easier to be an aging actor than an aging movie star. An aging actor can still act. An aging movie star can never be as glamorous as they were when they were younger. As much as an asshole as Warner was, I did like this nod to the real situation re: Bette Davis at Warner Bros when Joan entered. They mentioned the law suit and his thinking she was a "cunt" in the first episode. But their relationship went much deeper than that. They stayed with each other long after that lawsuit. Jack Warner stuck with Bette and fed her great scripts long after other studios (like MGM) would have sent her out to pasture. It was a complicated relationship. They never really dug into it. But I like that they alluded to it, at least. I wish we could have gotten his feelings on Olivia de Haviland...

Yeah, it's definitely a stretch and not in line with the time. I also think it's misunderstanding Bette Davis's line about Joan Crawford being a movie star and she being an actor. (Which Joan echoed in her lines about Franchot seeing Bette as an amazing actor but never a woman.) I don't think Bette Davis just means gorgeous when she says movie star. She means vacuous, insincere, a phony. That's probably completely unfair but it's a fairly consistent critique she had of Joan. Bette Davis did have gorgeous friends. And she and Joan were never in direct competition except for their brief overlap at WB. Bette, who was not unattractive, didn't have the right look for the 30s (and definitely not the 20s when Joan was the perfect flapper but they weren't on each other's radar then.) And she certainly felt it. But it's so reductive. I think Joan envied Bette's honesty. She'd have liked to be that quick witted and not have to put on the Joan Crawford costume every single day of her life. And I think Bette envied Joan's star power and glamor. But I don't think Bette Davis would have wanted to switch lives with Joan Crawford for one minute. I think Joan would have been tempted by the offer to be Bette for a day. I don't know. I think the show tries to mines the depths and show how they were manipulated, which is true to a degree. But, at the end of the day, they were two very different people. And they had some similarities But there was nothing that was ever going to make them like each other very much. And maybe that's OK? THey shouldn't sabotage each other, obviously. But why force a narrative that they would have been best friends had things been slightly different? Maybe not violent exactly but what she did to Mercedes McCambridge isn't too far off. She certainly wasn't always thinking longterm as this episode shows. I think the show as wrong to cut out the PI Aldridge hired. The Bette v. Joan feud was as much an Aldridge v. Joan feud than anything else. He hired the PI, he set them against each other, and he is the one who brought in the coke machine for that picture. This was really mostly Bob's problem the whole time and they alluded to but never stated it. But it is what happened. George Cukor was supposed to do a film with Marilyn Monroe (it would have been her last) but she had to back out. And no woman in Hollywood would take her place. So, they had to shut it down. George has gone on the record as saying that Joan thought the same thing would happen with her and this film. And he was close to her (as is shown.) Having all of Hollywood stand by her in solidarity would have been her Oscar, really. Joan Crawford was not a stupid person. But she was an alcoholic and more than a little delusional. And this was hardly her one slip into unprofessional behavior. She had acted out on sets before. Several directors (Nicholas Ray among them) wouldn't work with her again. As she began drinking more the professionalism she was known for sank. And that happened well before Baby Jane never mind Charlotte. This is also clear in Bob's scenes with both women. Until his last scene with Joan he's always buttering her up. Playing to her ego. With Bette he says she's a pain in the ass. He says that both women made his life hell. He'll yell at her in front of everyone for giving notes. Because the difference isn't necessarily that she's easier to take it's that he can be honest with her. He can lash out at her. And she'll even apologize or seem contrite if she was wrong. It's like Bette Davis's This Is Your Life when Olivia appears. Olivia says it took some time for Bette to warm up to her and she responds "shame on me. I was probably jealous of you you were so damn good looking." Yeah, she acted poorly but you can say that to her on national TV and she'll own the wrong.

Jane Russell also had a "botched" abortion leading to inability to have children later. She became avidly pro-life because of it. It's a common story of the age. It may have been part of Marilyn Monroe's fertility problems too. I love this story because the author is so oblivious. Like he brought a gossip columnist he knew Bette despised to her daughter's wedding? Then left because she wanted to hold off on champagne for the toast. But then he thinks it's totally unreasonable that she never wanted to be his friend again. That's a totally normal reaction to someone bringing a gossip columnist and then ditching the event to your kid's wedding. Or his snide comments about how awful she looked on Oscar night (I don't think she looks that bad.) Or how he casually puts out her husband beating the shit out of her as if it was an unprofessional act on her part. Like those bruises all over her face really put him out. Sorry, Bill. Not that she doesn't come off bad in parts but typical stuff you'd expect from Bette Davis. And she comes off wonderfully in other spots (the two different instances where she strikes up immediate friendships with women he introduces her to.) But I don't think he realized what a d-bag he sounds like. I agree for my own personal tastes but for the 30s Joan Crawford was definitely far more the it type. Bette Davis would never have gotten a contract if she were genuinely unattractive but she was definitely not the ideal for the time. Which, worked for her benefit as she got so many roles that were of the past. But Joan Blondell (despite what the show suggests), Bette Davis, obviously Kate Hepburn, Barbara Stanwyck all got regular work in film or TV during this period. Olivia de Haviland basically worked when she felt like it through out the 70s. TV may have been a downgrade but it was certainly better than Trog and even Hepburn did television. And of course Stanwyck got one of her most well known roles outside of film noir on TV. There is no reason Joan Crawford couldn't have been in that category and she clearly wanted to work given the crap she accepted. I don't think it's true that she aged out. As much as the show makes it seem like the worst of times I'd argue it was actually a better time for aging actresses than the 80s, 90s or most of the 2000s would be (changing a bit now.) People stopped wanting to work with her. I don't think the Oscar bit helped much. But the nail in the coffin was probably her stunt on Charlotte. This was after her antics on films like Johnny Guitar. It wasn't an anomaly. It wasn't about small minds. Of course, Bette did want it for validation, as is made clear. But as is also made clear winning an Oscar adds years to your career shelf life. One Oscar worthy role leads to more. And having three would have given her a career boost when she most needed it. It was also her life's work. She was genuinely dedicated to her craft in a way that wouldn't actually become common until later in Hollywood (although always on the stage.) So, yeah, she wanted that recognition that her life's work meant more than some guest spots on Perry Mason.

Fairbanks also said the wire hanger thing couldn't be true because she'd never have wire hangers in the house. Which actually confirms Christina's telling of the story. Or Joan herself explaining how selfish Christina could be as a young child because she wanted the lights on at night or she wouldn't sleep. Or how at a birthday party she was to unwrap every present and go around and show it to everyone. And after awhile got tired. It was supposed to be what a brat story. But in both cases this was a very young child exhibiting normal child behavior, which Joan just could not fathom. And this was Joan telling these stories. There are lots of people who corroborate that Joan was an OTT controlling mother who have no reason to lie. June Allyson's biography tells how she visited Joan's house and Christina was there all dressed up for a party with a present in her lap not saying a word. Finally, Joan explained that she was invited to a party but she was being punished so she had to sit there with the gift and not leave. June cried on the way home after watching this young child be humiliated. I can think of few instances where famous child abusers aren't defended to the death. But almost all of Christina's stories are corroborated by others or Joan's behavior elsewhere. She may have exaggerated a few but most of it is well in line with what is said elsewhere. There are also the instances where Joan was abusive to other people. Like when she threw all of Mercedes McCambridge's clothes in the dessert while they were shooting Johnny Guitar. Completely consistent with Christina's telling of her character. Lots of abusive parents are different with their second set of kids. She wasn't a monster and she surely had regrets. I also don't doubt BD's stories although I think she's a crazy person they all seem mostly consistent with what we know about Bette Davis. This drove me crazy in both cases. I know Joan was a bit of a shut in but she definitely was never forgotten and would always have visitors. And Bette always stayed active and had a pretty huge social circle. (She also remained close friends with Anne Baxter from All About Eve. It was getting out of the shower at her house that she first discovered a lump on her breast.) It's also a false narrative that's clearly false within the reality of the show. As Bette is shown to be someone who picks up friends relatively easily in the show itself (and she did in real life even if she could be difficult.) She's the one we see make new friends and connections. And Joan is shown to be someone who inspires fierce loyalty from not just Mamcita but George Cukor and her younger twins. In both cases, the way they end up doesn't just go against real life it violates the way they are depicted in show. Also, frankly, these two would never have been friends. It wasn't manipulation or the studio system. They had nothing in common. Didn't even share a similar sense of humor. And were pretty much two people who would never have connected in a real way. Well, Barbara didn't think too highly of her. She says she was "so lousy, so nasty, so bitter." But she certainly had other friends.

I won't claim Jessica is the perfect choice for Joan. But I do think having her not be a physical resemblance was partially intentional. Faye Dunaway looked very much like Joan... Since so many modern viewers probably only know Joan from Mommie Dearest it would almost be like casting a Faye Dunaway lookalike to modern eyes. They more an actor looks like Joan the more she looks like Faye the more the roles might be confused. It's confusing to think about.

I'm all about Poussey/Soso. I'm disgusted at the thought of Healey/Red. But I'll roll with it. She would certainly not take his shit.

Well, that was a huge fucking blow to the Piper character and all of her growth up untl this point. Even in early Season 3 she didn't try to justify her actions to Alex in the grocery store scene. She admitted she was wrong she apologized (and not apologized) and took responsibilty. That was huge growth. Which is why her becoming some monster in the second half was abruupt and not at all well plotted. That being said I also think some of her sins are exaggerated. Like she did hire Flaca back when she heard about her mom's cancer. And she wasn't opposed to paying the girls she just didn't know a way to go about doing it without help. (And doing so is actually committing the same exact crime she was indicted for; money laundering.) In a twisted way, I have never believed that Piper is deeply in love with Alex more than I do right now. And not just the "Alex she fell in love with". Not just the bad ass. She was so desperate for her approval and validation through out the season. When she first went to her with the panty scheme she was initially crushed when she thought she didn't like it and so happy when she found out she did. When they were planning the thing out while discussing the Gerber baby she looked so fucking happy. Like this was the best day of her whole life. Getting to be an equal with Alex. Finally real partners. Not to mention things like the girlfriend scene. Or her planning out there stereotypical lesbian life after running. Those things did happen and aren't negated by later events. And Piper didn't even notice Stella when she first met her. She didn't stop looking at Alex like she hung the moon and stars until she started becoming obsessed with Lolly and ignored Piper (not that it's okay for Piper to be so fucking insecure she has to make out with randoms for attention). Even when she was kissing Stella on the sly she ran to Alex with such pride like a little kid with every new thing. She wanted Alex to validate her finding the cell phone/money laundering scheme to pay the girls. She thought Alex would be proud of her firing Flaca. And THEN when (in her mind) she thought Alex broke up with her for firing Flaca she kept looking over at Al when she hired Flaca back. Like she thought this would get her approval. That was in the last episode. Even in their last scene when she goes on her dictator rant she looks at her with so much love. There was never a point (not when she was with Stella) that she didn't seem just desperate for Alex's approval. And she never dumped Alex. When Alex dumped her she said it was just a break up period and refused to let Cal call Stella her girlfriend. She clearly believed it was temporary. With Stella it seemed like such an obvious replication of Alex's recruiting techniques for mules. It was about power. Alex was joking around about her being a mule in the Gerber baby scene. And she exerted the same kind of power she thought Alex had over her back then. It was like she was playing make believe. And in her defense with the being "annoyed" thing Alex's basic fears were justified but she took it so far that she accused PIPER of being a spy. And Piper handled that really well. She could have easily flipped out on her. But she didn't. She remained calm. And tried to distract her with jokes. It is pretty okay to be annoyed at someone who accuses you of being a spy when they are in a relationhsip. I don't think the jokes were dismissive. I think she genuinely didn't know what to do and tried to distract her. She is just emotionally stunted. I don't know. I've never been more disappointed in a character arc. But I've also never been more convinced that in her fucked up WASP way she is in love with Alex. So in love with her that when Alex wasn't herself Piper decided to become her. Like one of them had to be the strong one. At the same time, I also think Piper is incredibly damaged at this point. And she thought Alex could fix it. But the damage is so internal. I think it was really telling that Piper wasn't just getting off on rough sex. She was getting off on being told what a piece of shit she was. She loved Alex saying hateful things to her. I also think the tattoos were as much about inflicting pain on herself as getting a tattoo. There is a pretty deep well of self-loathing there. Also, her oral technique is A+.

I was always a huge Piper defender so this season was obviously a blow for me. Fuck Piper. That's all. She turned into Alex. And everything I hated about Alex goes for Piper. But I wll say that it is incorrect that she fired Flaca for wanting to be paid. That isn't what happened. As soon as paymnet was brought up Piper was willing but she had no clue how to do it. It isn't like she has cash on hand in prison. And you can't set up official bank accounts for a bunch of random prisoners. That's why Red had to teach her about untracable accounts and using cell phones to transfer. She was never unwilling to pay anyone. She didn't know how. As soon as she was taught by Red she gave them money. At considerable personal risk to herself. And that's what Alex objected to. Because her scheme for getting the girls money meant she was now creating a vast criminal conspiracy with money laundering. If Alex had her way they wouldn't get paid at all (not because she didn't want to but doing so was a much bigger crime). She just fired Flaca for being an instigator and talking over her when it was brought up. And she did then rehire her. It is inaccurate to say she was ever pissed off or angry about having to spread the money. She not only did so willingly but paid Red 7% of the profits to teach her how. Being intitially unable is not the same as being unwilling. Otherwise she was an asshole this season. I HATED the Caputo storyline. I don't watch OITNB because I lack stories about white men sick of the corporate grind.

If I was a drug trafficer who tried to force the only person I loved in the whole world except my mother to commit felonies on my behalf I would understand that I only have myself to blame for being alone on that day. And seek to change my behavior or accept lonlieness as the inevitable consequence of my actions. Alex was pressuring her to commit more felonies. It didn't seem sudden to me. It seemed like Piper finally was doing the only sane thing. Yeah, Piper had been living off that money for awhile. Piper is a survivalist too. Far more crafty than Alex or anyone else gives her credit for. But she didn't want to do that. She had told Alex that. Alex flipped out and started calling her an asshole for not being willing to do so. She didn't want to go to prison. That's normal. Of course, she trusted the wrong person in the first place if she didn't want to go to prison. But we have to agree to disagree on these things. I think Piper did the right thing in leaving. I think Alex only has herself to blame for being alone. It's just an opinion. On a different topic, I wonder how Alex will react when she learns Piper has been with other women? I think the idea of Piper being a straight girl is key to Alex's view of what happened to them. It'll freak her out when she learns that Piper was with "hot girls" before Larry. Come on, you know you agree with one or two of my Reasons Alex Sucks. I'd agree with one or two reasons why Piper sucks. Although I did not include any on my Reasons Piper Doesn't Suck thread. Not even that the Alex we know would probably rather cuddle and read with Piper than be on a beach doing X with a bunch of strangers and she seems to completely lack self-awareness about it?

She also did it several times in real life. I think our Piper could have pled to probation.

She muled the money to Alex. Whoever she got the suitcase from might recognize her (ten years later when she was partially disguised at the time?) but they wouldn't have known her name. Any good attorney could tear that witness to shreads. And that's assuming it wasn't just left in a locker somewhere. "Her bitter ex told me but I didn't see her?" as the only evidence? That would never make it to trial. To be the word of a co-conspirator has to have been during and in furtharance of the conspiracy. So, Alex taking the suitcase to Kubra and saying "Piper brought this" would count but it would not be enough all by itself to prosecute someone. "Alex Vause told me that her ex Piper Chapman brought the suitcase." Alex: "I plead the fifth." Piper: "I plead the fifth." You have a statement from ten years ago completely divorced from its source from someone who barely knew or remembered Piper. From someone who had recieved who knows how many suitcases of money delivered from pretty girls through Alex. And anything she said once the suitcase was delivered would not count. The conpsiracy has ended as soon as that happens. Piper may have told someone. But she was smart enough to never do it again even though she stayed with Alex for two more years. And she was smart enough She really did go to prison for one stupid mistake. But her stupidity wasn't Alex related. She was just never stupid enough to put herself in that position again despite a long-term continuing relationship. Piper doesn't mind talking about herself? That is the exact opposite of Piper. No one in her life aside from Polly (who didn't know the extent of the drug stuff) had any clue about any of what happened. That was over two years of her life she spent with Alex and then she spent eight years never breathing a word about it. According to Polly, she's also been with a few more girls and she's never told anyone else about that, either (since the "lesbian" angle was such a shock). She shares almost no private information in prison (won't even admit she likes girls out loud) until she feels people are close friends. Even then some stuff she only shares after she is caught beating a wall until her fists are bloody. She's a WASP. She doesn't talk about things. She does everything she can to preserve her image. Even if she had, there are a million reasons why she might want to claim that in order to fit in at the time. Without someone placing her with that bag at that airport (which is only Alex) it is a completely flimsy case. There is absolutely no way Piper gets indicted without Alex saying she saw her at the airport with the bag.

I never claimed that Piper was perfect, far from it. But that example saved Alex's life. So, I feel good about it. Maybe it wan't Piper's motive but it doesn't matter because Alex would have ended up dead. And I do like her despite issues so I'm glad she won't die. Regardless, Alex will be entitled to her anger. As hypocritical as it will be. But it brings up a good point. When Alex returns would you be okay with Piper lying and saying she didn't turn her in? Would you be okay if she flipped out and said "fuck you for thinking I did" and then gave her the silent treatment for thinking that? If she gave her dirty looks for laughing at her jokes because she is so pissed off that Alex would dare think she would get her locked up? If after Alex found out the truth would you think it would be okay for Piper to turn it around and be furious at her for not wanting to be in a relationship? Piper didn't ask Alex to take heroin. She didn't put the needle in her arm the way Alex applied Piper's wig and handed her the suitcase. Of course, it was Piper's choice and she deserves what she got. But Alex intentionally made it happen after promising her she wouldn't have to do anything illegal. Piper didn't intentionally get Alex hooked on heroin. Manipulating someone who loves you into doing something bad isn't the same as breaking up with someone and their later making choices you would never want them to make. By that logic, no one could ever break up with anyone for fear of the consequences. And I don't think it was wrong for Alex to do it to Piper. I think it is wrong for Alex to do it to anyone. I think she ruined young lives and she enjoyed it. She enjoyed doing it to the types of girls who used to bully her. She reminsces about it. I think it was wrong for Taystee to give Nicky heroin, too. Same thing. Piper is selfish often. But I don't think not wanting to be a drug mule or sworn at for not wanting to be a drug mule is the same level of selfishness as locking your ex up, who only did their crime for you, because you are pissed she left. Alex told her to be with Larry if she wanted to nest. So, she was just complying. Her cheating on Larry was definitely selfish. But who cares? It is Larry. I mean, really, if you play that far out of your league your are going to have trouble keeping up. Piper and Alex are both selfish. Almost, everyone there is except Poussey. But Alex would never risk an additional five years in prison (maximum sentence for perjury) because Piper asked her to and looked sad. Alex would never risk going to the SHU to get someone she hated out of Psych even though it was Piper's plan originally. Alex didn't commit felonies just for Piper. That's the difference, for me. They are both selfish but Alex is seldom selfless. And I meant pathetic loser in a good way! She isn't a psychopath. She just makes very bad life decisions because she is incapable of getting over past anger and grudges. But anyone still that pissed off about a breakup (when they deserved to get dumped, especially) after eight years is definitely a pathetic loser.

When Alex was out of season 2 there was an immediate backlash and Netflix/the producers walked it back. Somehow I doubt that'll happen here...

Oh, no! What about all of his tangling plotlines? Does he ever get to ejaculate while masturbating?! What new way will he be able to use Piper's incarceration for his own professional gain? What about all the women close to Piper he hasn't slept with? Will we never get a scene with him kissing her mother to teach Piper a lesson? Darn, how will the show go on.

She has nothing to apologize for. She broke up with her the day before her mother died. It was just the day she could get a flight. She broke up with the person who called her an asshole for not being a drug mule. The person who tried to manipulate Piper's love for her into commiting a crime (Alex said something along the lines of "I just need you to do this for me"). She then walked out on the sociopath who hid her passport in a foriegn country. (I don't think Alex is a sociopath but that is a sociopathic move and one of the most common moves of an abuser whose significant other is not in their native land. I don't think she is abusive, either. But it isn't good.) No one has any obligation to go to their ex-girlfriend's mother's funeral. Piper had to get out. She finaly had the courage to leave the person she loved. Holding her at her mother's funeral and then leaving the day after that wouldn't have helped. And it wouldn't have made Alex feel any better. What would PIper's being there for a few extra days really have done? Nothing. Alex didn't want her there for that. She wanted her there forever. Alex made bad life choices and that is why she was alone. She chose the drug trade over Piper. Like Piper said she couldn't face the fact that being a drug dealer alienated everyone in her lfie. The fact that Alex doesn't understand this is beyond pathetic. She admitted she only has herself to blame for being in prison several times. To her mother, to the reporter (when he says Fig is a criminal "so am I"), to her father ("that is exactly who I am"), and to Alex when she admitted that was her life. In her very first scene with Healey she said "but I did it". She even takes full responsibility for getting Pennsatucky out of Psych even though it was Alex's plan (and Alex made no move to step up). Even if she initially played the victim she quickly gets over it. Alex did rat her out. She did admit it was partially a "fuck you" to do it. It was an incredibley shitty thing to do. Snitches get stiches. Piper is pretty forgiving about it. Piper may have done the crime but that doesn't make ratting her out an ok thing to do. Damage she did to Alex?! It was a breakup. They happen. She didn't do anything particularly horrible in the breakup (considering that an extra week to plan a funeral wouldn't have helped and isn't Piper's obligation). Her heroin use is not Piper's fault. It is not damage Piper inflicted upon her. Her ability to make herself a victim is infuriating. And it is unfair to say Piper doesn't take responsibility for her life and plays the victim (which isn't true) and then let Alex play the victim for things that are in no way Piper's fault. As for the sad pills scene Piper wasn't unsympathetic. They sat there and held hands. There was nothing to say about it. Alex wasn't looking for sympathy. She can be very sympathetic to Alex and concerned for her safety when needed (look at her freaking out about Alex's safety, commiting perjury because she saw her look sad and stressed, jumping to her defense when she told her mom Alex was the last of her problems, jumping to her defense when Cindy was going to steal Alex's boots, worrying about getting her out of the dryer, trying to take full responsibility for the dryer, not implicating her for her role in the Pennsatucky plot). Beyond that Alex ruined countless lives. She took lots of girls like Nicky and turned them into mules. Some of them surely got onto heroin. She seems to have turned many of them in when it suited her. She doesn't feel bad about the damage she did to them. She reminices about it with Nicky twice. She would certainly say they made their own choices. So, that is all that should be said to her. Piper left because she had no future with Alex and didn't want to be more of a criminal than she already was. Alex made her own choices after that. She had nothing to apologize for. Why would she? She didn't abandon anyone. She wisely broke up with someone trying to pressure her into committing more crimes. Beyond that she was an intelligent young girl with a Smith degree wasting her life following her girlfriend around. That couldn't last. And that was before Alex's mother died. Most people have been broken up with or broken up with someone. It isn't "abandoning" it is just how relationships end. With the Trish scene Alex was being a total asshole. Turning Piper's pain into being all about her. When Piper didn't do anything wrong by not going to her ex's mother's funeral, in the fist place. Piper rightly called her out on how unfair she was being. And her apology attempt was only because Alex was lying about not turning her in. She was apologizing for accusing her. Which was all manipulation on Alex's part. Alex wasn't mad at her in that scene. She knew that Piper would have every right to be angry if she knew she snitched (which is why she lied, so Piper wouldn't be mad at her). But she knows her well enough to know that fighting with her about it won't do any good. Piper will always win in a fair fight (she has a big temper, she is smarter, and she goes for the kill in a fight). But her Achilles heel is people making her feel like a bad person. We have seen it over and over (Crazy Eyes, Miss Claudette, Larry). She clams up and takes it even when she is in the right. Alex is exploiting that. Knowing if she gets Piper to feel bad for long enough Piper will start sniffing around her. That is why she magically isn't angry anymore when she has Piper alone in the laundry room. Because Alex knew she was an engaged woman! And chose to be with her her. And has absolutley no room to play the victim now. Because ALex had been manipulating her for weeks! Because Alex pretended Piper was an asshole for thinking it was Alex who turned her in. When she wasn't. She was right. Beyond that Larry put a break on their relationship because Piper said she was in love with Alex! She isn't using Alex. The fact that she loves her is why she doesn't have a fiance anymore. She isn't being disingenous. She isn't lying. She does love her. Alex's fear isn't genuine. She doesn't have a clue about what happened between them. PIper gave up her fiance for Alex by admitting she loved her and then when she found out the truth she couldn't just let her go after making that sacrifice. That is not the same as using her. Why would anyone feel sorry for Alex in that moment? She turned her ex in as revenge for her leaving her (which she admitted in that scene was a big part of it). She lied to her and manipulated her into feeling bad for thinking it was her who did it for weeks. She knew she was engaged to be married and even made jokes about not being room for four in their relationship but now is flipping out because why exactly? Because Piper is holding onto her after losing everything else? Give me a break. Piper threw everything else away for her. She knew exactly what she signed up for. She knew her fiance was a priority for Piper. It is one more pathetic examples of her playing the victim when she is the one who is 100% in the wrong. Nicky only said she was an asshole because they both thought she had accused Alex of somehting she didn't do. No one in the history of prison has ever thought being mad at your snitch made you an asshole. Snitches get hugs is not a common prison phrase. In season 2, Nicky calls Alex Piper's psycho ex and mocks her once she had learned the truth of what happened. Once she knew Piper hadn't been accusing her falsely she thought Alex was a psycho. For comparison, see how Nicky treats Boo for snitching. See how Nicky feels about herself for snitching on Red to Pornstache. It isn't something she takes lightly. Piper treated her like crap?! You have every right to be angry at the person who turned you into the police. Other people would murder her for that. Piper just didn't want to have to talk to her. That's all. That's all Piper asked. Was for Alex to leave her alone. Which Alex could not comply with and had to force herself on her at the lunch table. Was it really so unreasonable that Piper didn't want to chat with her snitch? That she wanted to do yoga without the person who went out of their way to land them in prison gawking at them and trying to blame their heroin addiction on them? Is that really so crappy? If Alex got on the stand and lied and then Piper got on the stand and told the truth they would know Alex committed perjury. Alex explicitly says this in the van "if you get on the stand and tell the truth then they'll know I'm lying". SHe goes onto say "you have to do this for me" which Piper responds sarcastically with "or what we're through?" and Alex jokes that she wants to be her prison wife. It was made very clear that Alex was begging for a favor. Alex's deal where she got time off for everyone she turned in (which she told Piper about in the kitchen scene) would be blown and she would face additional perjury charges (perjury is a felony). She needed Piper to lie for her. And, so, suddenly she was being nice and not holding grudges she had no right to hold in the first place. I think most of those scenes just show that Piper is a lot more confident in herself and her place in Alex's heart. She knows if she goes to Alex then Alex will accept her. Alex has to manipulate her to get her because she is so afraid of rejection. I know that isn't how it is supposed to be. But Alex seems like such a scared little girl so much of the time. Alex is a grown woman who can't get over getting dumped. Everyone gets dumped. She wasn't dumped after her mother died. She was dumped before. And her ex didn't allow her to use that death as a way to manipulate her back into her good graces. That is a completely correct response. She lied to and manipulated Piper from the second she got into the prison. She is basically a pathetic loser who makes herself the victim in every situation. I think Laura is good at those parts of the character, which are really more immature and teenish. Pathetic loser is better than psycopath. I do ship Vauseman. I like them together. I think Alex has good qualities. I just think it is unfair to make Alex out to be Piper's vicitm (prior to the end of Season 2) in any way, shape, or form. It takes some really drastic minimization of Alex's behavior (essentially writing out her calling Piper an asshole for not committing another felony, her hiding her pasport to trap her there, her constant manipulatoin, and her moral indignation that Piper would accuse her of ratting her out) and some real exaggeration of Piper's flaws (essentially writing out that Piper broke up for a good reason, that Piper never lied to her about Larry, that Piper told Larry she loved Alex and wasn't just using her, that Piper did try to apologize when she thought Alex hadn't snitched, that she repeatedly admits that she is in prison due to her own choices). It requires Piper to have super-human forgivness to not care about someone ratting her out (something that most humans dislike) but Alex to not be responsible for any of her own choices such as using her girlfriend in her drug business even after she says no, taking heroin, trying to trap her gf in a foriegn country, lying to her about snitching, constant manipulation. It also ignores that Alex didn't take Piper with her for Piper. She didn't do it to make PIper happy. She did it because she would miss her too much. She wanted Piper with her. All of the time. Because she was in love with Piper. So, it is unfair for her to suddenly act like Piper has to earn her place by doing drug/money runs she explicitly says she doesn't want to do. It is unfair to treat her like a commodity one moment and then expect her to go back to being her girlfriend when she needs emotional support. ETA: To be clear, I don't think Piper is any victim either. I think they are equals in every sense. In the end, it is the couple's saving grace.

That is the whole problem. That isn't ll that is going on in that scene. Alex had been lying to her and manipulating her. And she was manipulating her again by making Piper out to be the bad guy when it was 100% on Alex. While her hurt and anger are genuine, there are a lot more layers there. She plays the scene like everything that just happened disappeared and now Alex is just hurt. That other layer is just not there, at all. And that's a real problem. No one's heart should be breaking for fucking Alex in that moment. Laura Prepon is failing in that scene by making it all about that. We should be seeing why Piper's heart would break for her but as outside observer's get that this is fucked up for Alex to make it all about her pain when she is the one who just got caught lying and manipulating. But Prepon seems totally unwilling to explore the real darkness there. Just floats along the surface between snarky and hurt victim. And let's be clear, Alex didn't just lie about turning Piper in. She gave her dirty looks for laughing at her jokes, told her to fuck off for even thinking it was Alex, got angry at her for trying to put it behind them. All the while knowing that she had done the thing she is pretending to be angry at Piper for thinking she did. All of those moments were acting. She knows if she confronts Piper about her justifications for why she did it she would never win against Piper's temper. But Piper's weakness is being called out on how terrible she is then she'll back down. And even if Alex is hurt that she thinks Piper doesn't want her unless she doesn't have anyone else she is also using that hurt to manipulate Piper into backing off from her anger. It is a deeply manipulative and fucked up thing to do. And indicative of a deeply fucked up person. And that is not what is being displayed there. No another actor may not show the hurt and anger as well because they would likely be including the other elements, as well. Well, I agree that that is what it is supposed to be. At least, in season 1. It just is never how it is actually comes across to me. As is, Alex is the one desperate to have Piper cuddle her and like her. Alex always seems more desperate for Piper than the other way around. Which in interviews they suggest it is supposed to be the opposite. I don't think being dynamic is being outwardly showy. I think it is having a magnestism and being the one people are drawn to in a room. In the scene with Kubra they are both just sitting there. The real Alex Vause is not just vulnerable and cries sometimes. She is highly manipulative. She takes pleasure at destroying lives and even reminisces about it. She is so vindicitive she will write you off even if someone is threating to murder you (and if Boo knew Piper's life was in danger then Alex knew) even though she got dumped for very good reasons. There is a lot that goes into what the real Alex Vause is supposed to be beyond snarky and distant sometimes and crying and vulnerable others. All of that is not regularly displayed. And an actor is supposed to show the whole package. Acting isn't just crying and showing the vulnerable side. By comparison, who is the real Piper Chapman? You can't really say Piper's scenes with Alex are more the real Piper than her scenes with Polly. She is a complex person with a lot of facets and that is brought in almost every scene. And Piper has her face she shows to the outside world just like Alex does. That isn't different. At that point she was planning on lying on the stand, so she needed Piper to lie so that it wasn't obvious she was lying on the stand. If Piper told the truth Alex's testimony about not knowing about Kubra would be a clear lie and would hurt the deal she had in place (even before her additional deal to walk that day she got time off for everyone she named). She says it explicitly in the van. She may not have planned to double cross her, at that time. But she absolutely did need her to perjur herself for her at the moment she asked her to. Her bull shit "no holding grudges" (eventhough she has NO reason to have ANY grudge and Piper should be the one upset with her, if anything) comes at just the moment when she needs to make sure their stories are the same. She absolutely needed her. I'm sure she was happy to see Piper too. I'm sure she was worried about her. I just think there could be more than one emotion being displayed at a time. That's the whole difference. They are both playing characters who can be extremely unlikable at times. Alex is far more unlikable. But only Taylor plays it that way. And that is Prepon's weakness. She doesn't explore or even portray most of the time the deeply unsettling facets of Alex's character. Like I said, I do like her in the role. I think it works. But I don't think she is doing any particularly sophisticated work showing the real complexities of the character. FWIW, I liked her on That 70's Show.

Mendez was bringing in pills and other drugs to sell to the girls. He accepted sexual favors but he was mostly selling them. But they amped up security for the guards and now he can't just bring the drugs in as he normally would. Red is adament against bringing drugs into the prison because she'd get in serious trouble if that was found out. As is they let her smuggling slide. She also doesn't want drugs around her girls. Now Mendez wants to use her connections to bring in his drugs since he can't just bring them in off the street like he used to.

I'm still curious if he is a criminal lawyer by trade. I think probably not. Also, the idea that anyone else could have named Piper is kind of absurd and I'm a little surprised Piper fell for it since she isn't an idiot. I guess she just wanted to believe . Alex was the only one who saw her get off the plane. And was presumably the one who told her how to get the bag and all that. Even if what everyone else knows isn't inadmissable hearsay (statements by Piper, herself, may not be hearsay but almost anything Alex said to others would) it is pretty weak evidence to have third parties who were just told about what Piper did. Yeah, she met everyone and knew everyone but that isn't a crime. Hanging out with drug dealers isn't a crime. Alex was the only person to witness the only actual crime (that we know of) that she committed. How could it not be Alex who named her? And if it was anyone else why would she be in prison with such a weak case? Piper isn't a lawyer but she doesn't lack logical thinking skills. This episode is probably the one where Alex is the most hateable. I find her sympathetic a lot of the time. And I can understand the justification for naming Piper. I wouldn't never name anyone I'd been in a relationship with. But Piper did live off of that lifestyle for two (?) years and I can see thinking it is justified for her to have to go down for it, as well. But the moment when she gives Piper a dirty look for daring to laugh at her joke drives me nuts. And Nicky saying Piper was an asshole (not that Nicky could have known better) because everyone is swallowing Alex's shit. When all along she knew she was the one who named Piper and Piper had every reason to be upset about it. She was intentionally trying to make Piper feel like shit for thinking the truth in order to be in the power position in the future. It is pretty easy to forget while watching that she is just straight up lying and manipulating. Not only is she guilty of what Piper suspected but she isn't even really mad at her, imo. She just knows that if you try to fight with Piper Piper will not back down. She is too stubborn and has way too much of a temper. But if you make her feel like a bad person she begins to feel guilty and retreats. That is something we have seen work on her again and again, usually unintentionally, and Alex and Larry have intentionally used it against her.

But what has going to prison done to help any of them? There are mothers of children in there. They won't be able to get jobs. Why is Bennett the only one who is so blessed as to not to deserve to go to prison for his crimes? He is just as much of a criminal as anyone else in there. And, from her POV, it has to be infuriating to be in prison for crimes committed and have this guy talk about it like it is unthinkable that he should have to pay the consequences for breaking the law. Piper has been berated for thinking she shouldn't have gone to jail for carrying a bag once. Something she also did because she was in love. And she backtracked on that line of thought very early on. He intentionally entered into a sexual relationship with someone who he had power over knowing it was a violation of PREA. If Piper should be in prison for carrying money on a plane Bennett should be in prison. A white male veteran is more likely to find a job out of prison than most of those girls. It isn't that I don't sympathize with his concerns. But he doesn't seem to actually be planning on having a role in his child's life, at all. So, I don't think his economic argument matters much if he won't be using his money on his kid. And I don't think he should be the only one on the show immune from legal consequences. I don't think she thinks that, at all. She would never have done what she did, setting up Pornstache, had she thought that. She just doesn't want to continue with the lies or covering for his crime. It was more difficult than she thought to live with herself having set up someone. And she wants him to stand up for his own child. And, realistically, the only way to do that is to tell the truth.

I am sick of Daya/Bennet too. But I am on her side. I don't get why Bennett is the only person on the show who shouldn't have to face the consequences of his actions. He is as much of a criminal as anyone else there. All of the girls there had to face consequences of their crimes. Piper is constantly criticized for not being willing to do so (even though she has repeatedly admitted to being guilty, deserving her sentence, and is in prison). He is the father of a child. It is his legal and moral obligation to take care of that child. He has not suggested any plan to do so. And doesn't actually seem to be planning to do so, at all. He does need to step up. He is totally in the wrong.

That isn't how I'd describe the show, at all. There is a lot of love and random acts of kindness between the prisoners. And even when people screw up or are mean and manipulative they usually walk it back. Taystee returned to Poussey. Alex and Piper spent more time joking and cuddling then screwing each other over. Even when Alex visited her in prison or in Chicago more time was dominated by teasing and jokes then vitriol. With the cellphone, Piper refused to turn in a woman she had absolutely no relationship with and had never even spoken to to get something she wanted. Red just wants her prison family back and gets it when she stops manipulating and just starts being honest and apologetic. Everyone genuinely mourned Trish. Gloria cares about pretty much everyone (advising Alex in season 1, helping Norma find another outlet that won't get her in trouble, always being there for her girls). Daya just doesn't want someone to go to prison because of her lies. Lorna just wants Rosa to not die in prison walls. Aside from Vee, even the worst people have redeeming qualities. Pennsatucky, an objectively terrible and not too bright human being, is still smart enough to see through Healey's bull shit ("men being in charge never helped me") but also compassionate enough to feel for him. Healey, a scumbag who was going to let a woman be murdered because she turned out to like girls, still has it in him to show compassion and remorse. Fig sees cutting corners in prison as a way to ultimately do more good by having her husband pass legislation to reduce prison sentences for non-violent crime. Maybe that is bull shit but she still has enough of a conscience to need a bull shit excuse to justify it. Pornstache, a horrible human being, still is willing to stand up and claim his child in a way the otherwise better person, Benent, will not. Most of these people are good people. Which Piper tries to explain to Larry before he dismisses them as criminals. Even the bad people are seldom completely bad. The one exception being a through and through sociopath. Yes, there is manipulation and lies. None of these people are perfect, with the possible exception of Poussey (which is the thing that keeps me from loving her, tbh). That is part of the human condition. It isn't the only feature of the show by a very long stretch. I want that too! I like Polly, a lot. She has been with Piper for a long time and put up with a lot of shit. Also, Polly and Larry just really make more sense. And I am pretty sure it will happen. Piper has a lot of flaws. So many flaws. But she is, ultimately, a forgiving person. She mostly forgave Alex for turning her in, lying to her about it, and making her feel like shit for suspecting her. I mean there is stuff to work out there but she is more over it than not. She pretty quickly got over Healey walking away to let her be killed. She got over Pennsatucky getting her stuck in the SHU and then trying to murder her. Got over Crazy Eyes pissing all over her floor and even felt as though she had some reason to have to apologize to her over the things Larry said and let her call her a terrible person. Even though she had done nothing wrong other than tell her fiance the God's honest truth. She is cool with Red despite trying to starve her out. If anything Piper tends to let people who screwed her over turn it around on her too easily rather than being overly vindictive. If anything, once she got over the shock I think a little bit of her likes that Polly was brought down to her level. Piper was genuinely pissed off at Polly and Larry showing up in prison. But a little bit of her seemed to also really love getting to lash out at them.