CherithCutestory

Of course, he didn't actively want her in the KGB. But if it was really important to him that she not be he would have stopped it. But he could have stopped it very easily. He didn't. He was no victim in what happened. He was completely aware of everything that was going on. If he come clean to Paige about what they do she would never have been involved in that life. He was as active in the lie as Elizabeth. And, in many ways, assisted in it. Of course, he didn't want her in the KGB. But he was completely passive and even active in selling the lies. So, it can't possibly be said he wasn't guilty in her getting involved too. I literally said "Philip genuinely believes it's the wrong thing," What I meant was if he didn't want her in the KGB he should have tried harder. It was the obvious outcome of the actions he facilitated. And he did nothing about that once she was told (by him.) He didn't want it to happen but he didn't stop it. Philip is not morally superior for knowing his actions were wrong and doing them or passively assisting them anyway.

In addition to Nina, it was also pretty much stated outright in Season 5 when he's talking to Mrs. Gaad. Revenge isn't enough of a reason. He cares about the bigger picture. As he knows, it matters a lot who is the leader of the Soviet Union. A different kind of leader could very easily have responded to their weakened internal position by lashing out rather than making peace. He couldn't release Oleg. There is no way he could get that message. He had to let them go. It wasn't just about his relationship with Philip. The world was more important. Stan tasted personal vengeance over more important concerns with Vlad and he didn't like it. Yes, he is too stunned by Philip to act rationally. But I think if that wasn't weighing on the back of his mind his irrational act would have been to kill them rather than let them loose. (Or, at least, tried to.) But, unlike Martha, he didn't. And I don't think he ever really would have. I don't think he'll have much sympathy for her. Martha continued to work for Clark/Philip after he murdered Gene in cold blood for her. There is no forgiving that kind of person. (I don't see him ever forgiving Philip either, of course. Elizabeth isn't even worth mentioning as a possibility.) Honestly, the whole Nina thing just showed that they should leave these sorts of plans to people like Philip and Elizabeth. Both of whom would have known after a day that there was a million ways to milk useful information from this dope but trying to get him to betray his country was a no-go. The guy was never going to leave his wife for Nina. If he wouldn't leave his wife he wouldn't betray his country. The French Lieutenant's Woman is one of my favorite books. Never bothered with the movie. But everyone on this show is constantly projecting their own shit on everything else. So, it really didn't matter what was going on. Just what Nina saw. I'm sure she could have made Tron about her inner turmoil. In the world of this show, projection is a genetic Fictional Russian trait.

I think Philip was just plain wrong. I don't see any way Renee being a KGB spy made a lick of sense. First, Stan stopped working for counter-intelligence but she stayed with him. I can't imagine Philip sticking with Martha if she suddenly stopped having info. Second, the one little bit of info she had (that he was working on a couple) wasn't passed onto the Centre until Elizabeth heard it. Third, she was able to get a job with the FBI and was even interested in a role as an agent (which would have had a tougher security check.) Fourth, if she was a spy she was bad at it. She was so OTT and unsubtle. It works if she's just that kind of person. And, Philip should have known some of these. The whole point of them wanting Paige was so she can get in places he couldn't. But in season 6 he learns she wants a job with the FBI and that doesn't register? If she's an illegal why is she with a guy working on bank robberies? It's just another emotion masquerading as a fact for him. Renee came on the scene while he was still upset over Martha and he projected his guilt all over Renee and Stan. And Stan has to suffer the rest of his life for it. But there is the potential she was a spy not working for the KGB. Maybe an allied nation that would have more in-roads in creating backstories. I don't personally hold with this. And the most popular alternative theory is a pretty antisemitic one, in my opinion. Personally, I like to think she's MI6 as a fun alternative. Or actual Swedish intelligence like Philip pretended to be. (Not saying these make sense but it's fun to speculate.) But I think in the end she just wasn't a spy. Of course, Stan will never shake the idea now. So, that marriage is over. Stan was already burned out in season 5. So, no way does he stay in the FBI at all now. Former FBI agents can get some very cushy jobs working high level security for corporations. But that will never satisfy him. I don't think they will. I think they'd both assume neither wants anything to do with them. They both seem to very much understand that they've lost their children forever. I think after a couple of years she goes back to school and becomes a therapist. Knowing, with some satisfaction, that talking to privileged Americans about their emotions as a job would kill her mother. Of course, Paige is her father's daughter. So she'll need to process this and need therapy to talk it through for the rest of her life. Henry has always been his mother's son through and through. I think his response will just be repress, repress, repress. He'll be ostensibly fine. Yes, he'll probably have to leave that school but that's hardly the end of the world. The only outward sign of all the pain and heartache this caused him will be a massive throbbing vein threatening to burst. Will the FBI want to do this? Absolutely. Will they? I doubt it. Spy scandals in the past have been covered over. And I think they'll get word from the top to just let it go. It may infuriate them but what can they do? Look at the timing. A major treaty is about to be signed. Having this story be dwelled on with new revelations and other arrests coming out over time isn't in anyone's best interest. The US looks like a chump to have these spies on their soil. The USSR looks bad sending them. This is a time when they are supposed to be becoming friends. Realistically, if the breadth of what Philip and Elizabeth did was discovered during the START treaty our history would be very different. But I don't think we are supposed to think history has changed. In fact, Elizabeth kept it on track. So, we have to assume the FBI is not allowed to dig too deep into the activities of Elizabeth, Philip, Harvest, Claudia etc.

This was the perfect finale. I am so happy they didn't go the easy, lazy way and tie everything up in a neat little bow. We've followed these murderers for six seasons. It would be disingenuous to now give them some morally righteous ending because now, after seasons of enjoying watching them, they must really pay! No, absolutely not. They've always been crafty enough to get out of these situations. There is no reason to think they can't now because a show is ending. It's would be disrespectful to the audience to go out in such a trite way. The consequences were all based on their actions. They were great spies but shit parents. Great spies but bad friends. The hurt comes out of those failures not the idea that they won't be able to escape gunfire or talk themselves out of situation this last time unlike every other time. And part of the reason Stan let them go was because of his conversation with Oleg. Sure, mostly Philip wove his spell. But Elizabeth and Philip saying they had to get the message back was part of it. Because he knew it did matter who the leader of the Soviet Union was. And to paraphrase what he said to Mrs. Gaad, revenge isn't enough of a reason to make the whole world suffer. Oleg and Stan's long-term relationship paid off as much as Philip and Stan's.

I love the idea of Philip as some victim in the Paige stuff. He is the one who told her first. He's the one who told her she had to still be close to Pastor Tim. He's the one who wanted to tell her about the wheat being poisoned and he never corrected it when they found out it wasn't being poisoned. Elizabeth went behind his back exactly once when she told her about Gregory. She then apologized and said she should have talked to him about that first. She never went behind his back with Paige again. In season 6 even when they were at odds Elizabeth told him about Paige making the mistake with the name the very next morning. Elizabeth told him about the intern and that she didn't want her to sleep with him. She told him about their nights with Claudia and what they do there. She was completely up-front about it all and he not only OK'd it but was part of it at first. If Philip didn't want her in the KGB she wouldn't be. He knows what kind of person Paige is. All he would have to do is tell her the truth. The whole truth. All the stuff Elizabeth didn't want her to know because she didn't think she'd ever have to do those things. Tell her what he did to Martha. Philip never made a move to prevent it once Paige knew the truth. He was no victim. As much as he's a good man in other ways that's the despicable thing about Philip. Elizabeth genuinely believes she's doing the right thing with Paige. She believes she is giving Paige a purpose that really matters. She believes Paige will have a job in the State Department or the CIA and never have to see the truly ugly stuff. Philip genuinely believes it's the wrong thing, he genuinely believes there is no guarantee she'll be protected from the worst stuff, but he doesn't give enough of a shit about his daughter to actually do a damn thing about it. He even encourages it by bringing her in on the wheat thing. Philip wanted to go back to the USSR. He missed home. What? What about in Season 5 when it was Elizabeth who said they should retire and move back? And then made elaborate plans to do so. They would be retired if Philip hadn't told her about Kimmy's father's promotion. A choice he made even though he knew she wouldn't be able to leave if he did that. Post-Pilot Elizabeth is the only one who seriously suggests they both retire other than in life or death circumstances. Philip is ready to do it whenever he thinks they've been caught. After killing the Nazi collaborator, Elizabeth wants to retire just because she knows they've both had enough. And Philip didn't love his children enough to make a sacrifice for them so he could stay in the US. He didn't even love his children enough to say "hey, I don't think you should be a spy and here's why."

Philip wasn't forced into anything. He chose the life just like her. When he couldn't take that life anymore Elizabeth told him he should stop. He tried to push back and say no. She wouldn't let him keep up a life he hates for her. And he spent three years not doing it. No way he would have been allowed to live in the US not working for the KGB if they didn't risk pissing off Elizabeth if they tried to kill him. And Philip didn't want to defect after the first episode. Heck, he didn't even suggest leaving the fifth season. ELIZABETH is the one who had enough and wanted out. Nobody forced this on him. Elizabeth, in fact, practically forced him to stop living a life he hated. And took on a huge burden of doing the workload of two all by herself so that it nearly destroyed let her. I don't think it's possible to watch the first montage of her working in season 6 (mission after mission her body language showing how worn down and empty she is) and think that marriage is all one-sided. After telling Tuan how difficult this business is without a partner she did so out of love for him and his well-being. Toxic relationships don't involve one partner destroying little pieces of their soul day after day so her husband won't have to destroy his. In the last season, she changed her entire world view in a day for him. Sure, there were a lot of factors that went into her defection but she would never have got there in such little time if she didn't hate herself for disappointing him. And there are plenty of times when Philip makes the major decisions in that family and she goes a long with it. He thinks they should get someone completely inexperienced to cover Yousef and, despite some initial hesitance because of how dumb that is, Elizabeth goes a long with it then shows up to break bones and stuff that woman in a suitcase when it all predictably fails. He thinks she should go see her mom and take Paige despite the KGB? Despite her reluctance to defy their bosses she goes. He wants to murder an innocent man to protect the worthless Martha? Elizabeth goes a long and keeps her alive even when it put them all at risk. He wants to leave Henry? Elizabeth agrees. Elizabeth has to beg him to call Henry one last time. It's clear his word is the final one on that. Even in the very first episode, when they aren't a real couple, in the end Elizabeth tells him to do whatever he wants with Timoshev and walked away. If he wanted to defect she was going to let him. He kills Timoshev instead. In the same episode, Elizabeth has her rapist in her garage, she tells Philip she thinks they should just kill him. He says no. They don't until he does. ("I almost did it myself this morning but I thought you'd be pissed.") He gets his way all the time. Obviously lots of examples of Elizabeth getting her way too. But it's hardly on sided.

Agreed. And a scene that demonstrates this is when Paige asks where the names Elizabeth and Philip Jennings come from. She then asks if they feel like their real names now. Elizabeth answers yes with no qualifications. Philip says yes but he misses his old name too.

I love this scene too. But I'm not sure Elizabeth was much of a pro in it. No sister this side of Westeros would react to that confession by asking "what do you mean?" That should be a "woah, way too much information" reaction. Elizabeth was curious. Jennifer should have been horrified. I mean only a total weirdo would ever bring it up with their husband's sister in the first place. But Martha was drunk and doesn't seem to have many friends so she doesn't totally know how to act around people. Elizabeth, on the other hand, is a pro and usually pretty good at reacting in character. Not as good as Philip at that but pretty good. Absolutely one of the best scenes. But Elizabeth slipped there. And someone sharper than Martha might have caught that. Absolutely this! I had zero respect or pity for Martha by the end. We've seen the other characters really struggle with what the greater good and what sacrifice is worth it. Nina as you say. Stan is willing to confess to murder of Vlad (which would have ruined him even as it brought down everyone else) to save Oleg because it was right. Philip is willing to choose his country over love. Elizabeth is willing to blow up her whole world (and the little bubble she had with Claudia and Paige) when she realizes it's the only right choice. Martha struggled with the Gene murder for about five seconds. And then was 100% for Philip/Clark. She was ultimately such a selfish character. The others are very selfish too in their own ways especially Philip and Elizabeth (and of them especially Elizabeth.) But they do struggle with the consequences of their actions and they do care about the world. To be clear, I think Martha was a fantastic character. Very well acted. I think everything played out very true to who she was. More clever than most people would have thought but very small-picture when almost everyone else is big picture. I'm in no way insulting the writing or the acting when it comes to her arc. The characters were ultimately a complete waste of screen time. And way too much time was spent on the Gorp dude especially. But, compared to other honeypots not other moments, Season 5 honeypots are some of my favorites. I absolutely love that Philip is trying to win over the anti-Martha in Deirdre who is just Not Impressed. Yeah she's always lived alone and doesn't have many bowls and he's not getting one! I love Elizabeth trying and failing not to like someone who is like a parody of Philip on EST, which is a version of Philip that she claims annoys the hell out of her (even before she learns he's trying to save the world and is genuinely impressed.) I love Elizabeth being disappointed knowing he was playing around. The two are usually so implausibly good at this (as they point out to each other in Season 5, both are very attractive but, come on, they'd get shot down a lot more than they do.) I love that in Season 5 they strike out a bit. They both get their targets but the targets aren't all about them. Plus, I love Liz showing Philip Tai Chi in the bedroom at home. She always picks stuff up from her marks and gets enthusiastic about them. Korean food (and her being excited to tell Paige about this weird tofu thing), drawing, Tai Chi. The way they just ended with no follow-up showed how useless they were as plots. I definitely didn't need as much time as they spent on it. But I'm all for seeing Philip and Elizabeth struggle to keep the interest of their marks. And struggling with even wanting to keep the interest of their marks. It was a nice palate cleanser after the intensity of Martha.

Elizabeth is also the one who asked Gabriel to ask the Centre if they could find another way in with the Young-Hee situation so she wouldn't have to complete the mission. She had already made Don think they slept together but she didn't want to ruin this family. As tormented as he was about his missions, when he was an active spy Philip never did that. He'd get mad about his missions and sass Gabriel about them but if he took them up he always did them to the end. He even asked Martha if she would collect the tapes from MailRobot after she knew he wasn't Clark, the pen had been discovered and she was on the cusp of being discovered, herself. He did tell her she had a choice but he knew she'd do anything for him by then. (He did abort the Kimmy kidnapping scheme but that was after retirement and it was a ridiculous plan anyway.) There are other examples where Elizabeth is the soft one even though it's usually Philip. Elizabeth was the one completely shaken up about the fate of Jared (before she found out what he did.) She was questioning where "they" would send him all by himself (Hungary, Switzerland...) Philip was much more calm about it and figured the Centre would take care of it. She doesn't say it outright but she's the one really questioning and pushing on whether the Centre has Jared's best interests in mind. It's a pipe dream, but she's the one who says she wishes they could bring Tuan to Russia with the family (which would cause an obvious rift with Vietnamese intelligence.) And the one who went over to spend the night because he seemed lonely. And the one who slipped up and mentioned their son with him (which didn't turn out to be a big deal but giving another intelligence agent ammunition to use against you isn't a good idea.) Don't know what it means narratively. Except that as much as Philip is the one who really struggled the cracks in Elizabeth's veneer have been there for a very long time.

Sure, because Elizabeth is always a totally sane and rational person to rely on for accurate descriptions of reality. Elizabeth also genuinely believes killing an old woman will make the world a better place. Elizabeth also genuinely believes Paige can be a spy working for the State Department without ever having to be exposed to the bad stuff like killing or sleeping around. Elizabeth also genuinely believes the worldwide workers' revolution is just around the corner just as long as she keeps sleeping with randos for scraps of information. Elizabeth also genuinely believed her kids couldn't smell smoke on her. She's intelligent, she's capable, she's an idealist who genuinely believes she's doing her part to save the world, she does love her family (even if she isn't great at showing it) but she's a crazy person. Let's not suggest Elizabeth Jennings has a firm grip on reality. By contrast, Philip is always honest with himself and others (unless he can't be for his job and even then the reason he was such a good spy is he was still as emotionally honest with his marks as he could be). He is a realist even when it hurts. And in Philip's assessment he wouldn't want to be an American without her. And he has shown little interest in defecting even if it was with her since the Pilot. Who are we going to believe when it comes to Philip's feelings on the topic? A man who is honest and real with himself even when it's painful? Or a woman who lives in a constant state of delusion? Now one could easily argue Philip shouldn't be with a crazy person, that's a totally justifiable argument. I'd say he knows how nuts she is more than anyone and he still made his choice. But agree to disagree there. But it's tough to say she knows what he wants better than he does. That's what Elizabeth thought he wanted. It's not what PHILIP said he wanted. He made it pretty clear he didn't want any of that without her. Now that may be dysfunctional as heck but it doesn't make it any less true. And it isn't as insane as it sounds. Because Philip did miss home and did miss his life there. And she was the only connection to that. There isn't anyone in the world that could understand him like Elizabeth. Not because Soul Mate or True Love or whatever ridiculous concept. But, literally, she's the only person who would get his very unique life even other illegals wouldn't get some of the aspects of being Philip Jennings. He says this unequivocally to Sandra when they discuss EST. He could never be happy living a lie. Only around Elizabeth was he not. Other men (and women) wouldn't need someone who gets it all. Stan would be perfectly happy without that. But Philip needs an honest life. And, again, he also made it pretty clear that he was loyal to his country. Just not blindly loyal to the KGB. Elizabeth's statements aren't about what Philip really wants. It's about Elizabeth's guilt and insecurity. And the fact that she low-key hates herself. Elizabeth thinks Philip would be better off if she were dead (something she's pretty much expressed twice.) There has never been a time where she thought she was enough for him. And that comes through in lots of ways . She doesn't just express this the times she says he should take the kids and be American. She also expresses it when she says she'd understand if he wanted to flee with Martha. She expresses it by, counter-intuitively, being the one who tends to get more jealous over his relationships with marks (not just Martha.) She expresses it by being (albeit somewhat justifiably) paranoid and jealous over Irina. When she says those things it's not about what Philip wants, it's about her genuine belief that he couldn't really just want her. Like Roseanna said, Philip is loyal to his home, not the concept of the USSR. He thinks the party is corrupt but he loves his country (much like Oleg). He won't take the collapse of the USSR as the collapse of his country. He will definitely think his actions saved the country from a corrupt organization eating away at it from the inside. Even as bad as things get after the fall, I think he'd see that as necessary growing pains for a better country. (If he lives for the rise of Putin he'll be disappointed.) Now, Elizabeth is a different matter on that score. And, if they live, knowing she could have prevented the fall of the Soviet Union will probably haunt her for the rest of her life. But once she knew for a fact her loyalty and idealism was being manipulated not to save the world or effect a worldwide revolution but for the goals of a few individuals within the KGB she couldn't have made any other choice. It's not in her nature.

He was talking about the job, which she encouraged him to leave, not her. No reasonable person is expected to commit high treason to make their spouse happier. I'm doing a rewatch now and I can't remember one time where Philip suggests defecting to the US after the pilot. It was brought up in other contexts, of course, (the possibility of Nina defecting, Philip thinking Elizabeth told that he wanted to defect) but never as something Philip was considering doing. Philip suggests fleeing to Russia after Pastor Tim finds out, he seriously wants to go back to Russia after William is caught (and Gabriel suggests it), and then obviously tries to flee back to Russia in Season 5. None of those times did he suggest defecting to the US instead. And throughout most of the series Philip is actually quite patriotic. He never questions the right to be in Afghanistan. Horrified at the deaths of the men on the sub. Horrified at the prospect of Americans having bio-weapons and of them poisoning the wheat. He believed in what he was doing much of the time until the fifth season. Even if it made him feel like shit. And his final acts in season 6 were VERY patriotic. He chose his country over even Elizabeth. That's not a man considering defection. I am not sure I believe he would ever be OK with defection as he developed. The characters in the pilot weren't really fully formed. (Note it's Elizabeth who was horrified at the idea of the kids being dragged into this in the pilot. Obviously a big shift in character comes later.) They are murderers (Philip as much as Elizabeth, make no mistake). They don't deserve a happy ending. Philip doesn't deserve one anymore than Elizabeth. He still killed. He still ruined lives. Of course it isn't a happy ending. Nothing would have been. They still have to live with what they've done the rest of their lives. No matter where they are they still have enemies. But he was able to save his country, he's back in Russia, which is what he's wanted for a couple of seasons, and he has Elizabeth, whom he clearly loves even if it isn't a love story. So, I think he's relatively happy with the result except for losing his kids. Of course, he will miss the USA (I think it's plausible that Elizabeth could miss it more than him though. At least he loves hockey.) Of course, losing the kids is devastating. But he gets to be himself now. What Philip wanted more than anything was to live honestly. That's what EST was all about for him. Living another kind of lie under witness protection (if it were possible which I seriously doubt) isn't what he wanted either.

And it fails again in three years. They gave us an ending. The Centre, far from killing them, help them escape to the USSR when they could have shot them on the plane. Paige and Henry stayed behind. It may not be the ending you were hoping for. But it doesn't mean we can create our own canon. First, the fact that she asks him about his son AND tries to get him out of Afghanistan completely undermines this point even if it were true. SHe clearly cares about his life and they showed different but similar ways to show that. But she talked with him about his family and childhood multiple times. And in those conversations she was invested and asked questions. Not in order of airing: When Elizabeth calls Philip at the travel agency in season just to tell him she misses him, Philip and Elizabeth discuss his memories about his father bringing things like food or clothes home. (She wonders if they are happy memories then. And he can't be sure. So, she asked if he brought home other kinds of things. And Philip doesn't remember. The undercurrent is clearly why would a logger have access to these things to bring home.) Elizabeth is the only person Philip tells that he killed his bully after beating around the bush in telling the story at Est and to Martha. At first she thinks it's good that he fought back hard but then is sympathetic when she realizes he killed him. Philip tells Elizabeth his mother used to make a "soup" with onions that was really just hot water. Philip tells Elizabeth that the people in their town hated him and his brother for no reason. Elizabeth asks if the boys who bullied him (she remembers this from a past conversation and brings it up) were the children of those people. He says some of them were. She doesn't follow up with the obvious conclusion to spare his feelings. (That he wasn't just targeted by gangs but that those people didn't like them for a reason.) In that conversation Philip mentions his brother. And Elizabeth clearly already knew he had one in context. So, they have discussed his family much more in depth. After Gabriel tells Philip his father was a guard at a prison camp he goes and tells Elizabeth about it. He says his mother never told him and she must not have liked it. That is about as much airtime as she and Philip spend discussing Elizabeth's mother, if not more. And Philip never asked about that either. She always volunteered it. It seems like more because we also get scenes of Elizabeth listening to the tapes from her mother. And Philip doesn't seem to give a damn about any family he left behind. Elizabeth was close to her mother. Philip thinks both his parents were total strangers (the literal words he used.) He clearly wasn't close to either of them. So, the scenes discussing her dying mother were more impacting and emotional. But that she didn't ask a very specific question (neither did he) doesn't change that she spent time with him going over his past and the context shows she had done so off screen too. Since she knew he had a brother, knew he had thought his father was a logger, knew where he grew up. It may seem incongruous but Elizabeth is just a much, much more sentimental person than Philip. He's more emotional and loving in the now. But she is more sentimental. So her memories of home are more impacting and memorable. But there actually aren't that much more of them in the show. Not in this show. He'd be dead in days. Not to mention the fact that Paige was terrible at hiding this spy thing. So, she'd have given them up quickly even if it did work out. And, again, he had very little useful information since he was siloed and didn't know anyone else's name (including Elizabeth's until season 1) to give and killed a great many US citizens. Stan would have killed him if the KGB didn't. Elizabeth is a very flawed character. But criticizing her for not defecting against her country is deeply unfair. She didn't force Mischa to join. He knew it wasn't the kind of job you just quit. She told him to take a break (didn't "let" him it was her idea). She did what she could to mitigate the pain from the job he chose. You don't get to just betray your country because things are hard. It would be like criticizing Stan for refusing to defect to the USSR to save Nina.

Philip and Elizabeth chose the winning side. They are in Russia under the leadership of the winners with the protection of Arkady. Chances of them dying are slim to none. Elizabeth is much more likely to die of lung cancer than from the KGB. If the plot was 100% certain that they all die they would have shown that. They showed the very opposite. The Centre helped get them out and back to the country of a man whose life they saved. Philip WOULD have been dead if he had tried to defect though like the Bystrovs. Or in a prison in the USSR like Irina. His tethers to Elizabeth saved his life. They've shown us time and time again what happens to those people. I think reading their relationship as abusive or one-sided requires throwing out the majority of the series (where Elizabeth is consistently comforting, looking out for him, worried about him, making sacrifices for him) and focusing exclusively on a couple of scenes where Elizabeth doesn't want to talk after long days of doing the work of two spies and subsequent fights. But everyone views things their own way. No disputing opinions. I will say that going back to another topic. Elizabeth asked Philip about his son's name. She has asked about his family.

Sure but we haven't seen any with the volume of work Elizabeth had, which she previously shared. The amount of stuff they had these two doing was always ridiculous (Gabriel noted this and had the seven month slow-down and Philip complained about it) and there was no indication halved the work after Philip quit. Someone like William only had to observe things in his own lab. Elizabeth even told Tuan he should have a partner and it's hard doing this alone. She knew what she was giving up when she told him to retire. And she did it for him. He was a goldmine only because they were following him, though. If they turned they'd immediately change the way things worked. Any info they have would immediately be useless. And we've seen that the Americans don't go out of their way to protect assets. Nina gave a lot of good info and there was no knowledge that she turned. What Elizabeth was "informing" on him about was pretty small potatoes more like bitching than informing. She was very obviously shocked over what happened to them. And furious. Even before she started to fall for him she didn't think that would happen. But, of course, the Elizabeth who did that would have Gregory to work with (on a more limited scale but still) and share things with. There was never the prospect of being completely solo in this work back then. I agree with this completely. Obviously their separate lives had to happen narratively. And made sense for them at that time. I'm not even really criticizing Philip for taking three years off. But Elizabeth did sacrifice a lot to give him those three years. She did take on a lot more work that was emotionally and physically draining. And she did it for him. I just don't think their relationship is as one-sided as people sometimes think (not that you remotely suggested it was!). She made sacrifices for him, she tried to help his family, she often tried to be supportive (which came a lot harder to her than to him) even when it was over things that hurt her (like trying to comfort him over Martha.)

Yes, the show was pretty clear that the Bad Place folks are doing this. It's not a statement about legitimate morality or impossible standards. The system has literally been rigged. But that means the Mindy St. Clair thing makes zero sense. Unless Mindy is what prompted them to do that. (With Jeremy Bearimy the 1980s can happen before 521 years ago and also at the same time.)

The names thing is something that makes sense in a very abstract way for the characters. Elizabeth is the kind of person who goes by Elizabeth not Liz or Beth or Betsy (my name is Elizabeth and even if you go by the full version it's almost impossible to stop people from shortening it.) So, she must be the kind of person who goes by Nadezhda, right? (No...) But makes absolutely zero sense as far as Russian culture, language, or naming norms. As inclusive as the writers were to Russian language speakers and actors and getting consultants they still think like Americans. Her mother did call her Nadenka though.

The USSR obviously didn't have the plenty of the US although by the 80s it was nothing like it had been when Elizabeth and Philip were kids. And Russia post-breakup in the 90s went through terrible trauma with not enough food and inflation. But I think the horrors of having to live in Russia over the USA is being seriously exaggerated. There were many worse places to be in the world. Philip can even get McDonald's there. And Elizabeth and Philip are in a much better position than most to make it through the turmoil. They have marketable skills (even if Elizabeth would vomit at the marketable aspect) such as very fluent English. They also know how market economies work. They can open a wig company! I'm sure Elizabeth will be devastated by the fall. But she's not the hard liner she was. If the Centre was going to kill them they wouldn't have bothered to bring them to Moscow (where Gorbachev's people are much more likely to learn about it) to do it. How do you explain to the head of your country that you executed spies for saving his life? They would have done it in the US or Canada where Gorbachev is much less likely to have moles and access to information. They picked the winning side. Once they made it out of the US the chances that they will be killed are next to zero. Do I think they have a bright future? Absolutely not. They left their children behind and will never get over that. They have no life in Russia anymore. The USSR is about to fall. But their curse is that they have to live with the decisions they made for the rest of their lives. They have to live in the place they served for decades and have it be a foreign place. It's not the blessing of a quick death. They'll survive because that's what they do. They'll adapt because that's what they do.

She asks about what his son's military career after he tells her about him and then comforts him when he says he's a paratrooper in Afghanistan. And we never saw Philip ask about her family. She always volunteered the information about her mother. He never asked about her father. He made the plan after she told with her own prompting. And there was never anything similar she could have done. Except, of course, Elizabeth DID ask Gabriel to bring Philip's son home from Afghanistan. She did that before Philip did the thing with her mother. And he knew about it (although she didn't tell him so there is no way to view it as manipulation.) She's not one to ask big favors of the KGB or think they owe them anything (serving is something to be proud of not to get things for) but she did it for Philip's son. It's unfair to not note that Elizabeth reached out to the KGB over a family member out of love for him FIRST. She didn't just allow him. She suggested it. She saw how unhappy he was and suggested he retire. He chose to be a KGB spy. He was told it would be a hard life. He chose it. That's not on Elizabeth. If he ever gave it up without her covering for his ass he'd have been dead in a few days. This was explained in show. It was over the "last few months" that she was finally cracking and that lead to her being brusque to everyone. And she wasn't kind to him because he was back to KGB. But because he was taking some of this massive burden off of her shoulders. It never should have been on her shoulders alone, in the first place. He signed onto this gig. It was meant to be both of them. She had him retire for his own well being and it absolutely destroyed her mental health. She's not perfect but she gets no credit for willing to take on the work of two master spies all by herself just so he can be OK? Philip shirked his responsibilities for years. He let her take on the whole thing all by herself. Saw it was killing her. And still let her until Chicago. When she saw it was killing him she acted. Philip was right there the whole time. He told who they really were right along with Elizabeth (in fact he spoke first.) He said she had to stay close to Pastor Tim (her first mark.) He didn't tell her what things they really do, which would have ended her fascination from the start. It is ridiculous to suggest he was powerless there. That was true in season 4. By season 6, he wanted her to go against Centre's orders and she did. By the end, the power dynamic is reversed. Elizabeth needs him. His opinion of her means more to her than her devotion to the KGB. That being said, there was a scene where Elizabeth asked who wore the pants in Clark and Martha's marriage, which I found hilarious. Who wears the pants in your's?! Why would Clark be different. Elizabeth and Philip weren't really a couple when she was with Gregory so it wasn't cuckolding. And they had split up when she slept with him before his death. When they became real she ended things with Gregory and told Philip all about it. She expected the same honesty as she gave him. It's not a double standard. Yes. The idea that Philip could have just defected with the kids and lived a great life is frankly laughable. Philip and Elizabeth don't even have anything much to offer! They did briefly in the very first episode but Philip killed their meal ticket. They have always been siloed. Their missions discrete with no knowledge of how they work into the overall plans. Their only contacts are easily disposable handlers whose real names they don't even know. The exception was Oleg (who was really small potatoes.) The only way they could be of any use to American authorities was if they stayed as spies and reported back. But then what's the point? It's the same lifestyle. There is absolutely no way American authorities would have been "OK, well you have no good information for us and you were spying on our soil and killing our people for two decades but why not put you up in witness protection!" Philip would be prosecuted and the KGB would kill him before he got to trial. That's the only way defection would have worked. It was never a real option for Philip. Except for that brief moment in the very first episode. Not KGB officers who lived on US soil and killed dozens of people. Not KGB officers who ran a mole inside the FBI. There is no way in hell the US authorities would ever have shrugged and let him be. We don't know what would have happened if Elizabeth died of glanders or if Philip took the kids and left her. But it is more plausible that without Elizabeth keeping him at least vaguely tethered to the KGB he would have quickly ended up dead, in prison or both than he would have ended up living a totally normal American life on American soil.

Yes. I have absolutely no sympathy for Martha after Gene. She grieved him for about four seconds and then was like "thank you for telling me." THANK YOU! She never wavered in being Team Clark even when someone she knew and liked was dying a gruesome death at his hands. I'm sorry but Martha was a really shitty person. She only ever cared about Martha and Clark. Honestly, on the rewatch I just wanted her to go away. And she totally knew Clark's story was off on some level way before she was caught. When they found that pen she was frantic. If she had seriously thought it was for the FBI she would have believed she would be fine. She knew and didn't care. Because she liked sleeping with her "husband." Even Elizabeth, a hardened killer who believes her cause will make the world a better place to her very core, sometimes felt tortured by guilt about the things she did. She was near hysterical and begging for Philip to understand why it had to happen when Lucia died. She hated everything about what she was did to Young-he and Don and she wasn't murdering anyone there. She was nearly in catatonic shock after she had to kill Lisa ("did you put my cigarrette down" is one of my favorite line readings.) I'm not putting Elizabeth up as some kind of pillar of virtue here . Just the opposite. If even Elizabeth is showing more long-term guilt and emotion over the consequences of her actions than you there is something very off about you. I get that she had few options and she was manipulated. I did feel awful for her the first time. But, in the end, she was just a very shallow person. I believe that was in A Spy Among Friends. There is lots of speculation that Nicholas Elliot just let him go after confronting him. And Philby himself came to believe that. But, personally, I think that's assuming too much of Elliot and MI-6. The defection was more embarrassing than a trial would have been. I think they just genuinely never believed he'd flee even after all they discovered. But we'll never know. I think Elizabeth pretty much straight up admits this though, right? She was 22, she'd never had a boyfriend, never had a particularly positive sexual interaction and she met this passionate man. It was a first love of two idealistic kids. It went on so long precisely for the reasons you say. They only had the sex and the passionate talks and the laughter. Not the washing dishes or raising kids. Reality never intruded until the end. But when Elizabeth was explaining it to Philip she seemed very aware that it was a first love not a love of my life thing.

I think promoting the idea that forgiving abusive parents is crucial to development is unhealthy. So, you get good person points for forgiving abusers who have done nothing to make it up to you? That's rhetoric used a lot to down play abuse and make it the burden of the victim to make the abuser feel better rather than the abuser feel any consequences. Yes, Tahani should forgive her sister and it doesn't matter if her sister forgives her. Because, ultimately, they were both tormented by their parents and Kamilah was responding to that dynamic as much as Tahani was. So, I think that worked quite well. At the end of the day, Tahani's feelings of inadequacy weren't because of Kamilah. She wasn't the one who truly wronged her in the deepest sense. But to think that Eleanor is a better person for forgiving a cruel and neglectful mother is just perpetuating BS that victims of abuse must always forgive for their own good. And Eleanor's mother's neglect definitely amounted to abuse. This girl was on her own at 14, she was told she couldn't cry over her dead dog, which her mother is responsible for being dead. What if it was an abusive spouse? I don't think the crimes of Eleanor's mother were remotely comparable to those of Tahani's sister. So, I didn't think it worked that they were essentially equated and dealt with in a similar way. Also, Michael is a terrible liar now so I doubt he lied. Plus, we saw him after the reveal with just Janet and he clearly believed he had failed and condemned them to the Bad Place. He had no reason to lie to Janet. He just doesn't now everything about the rules.

I enjoyed the Kamilah plot. I always hoped that she wouldn't be shown as just an awful person although those hopes were dashed the previous episodes she was in. Because I always thought she was as much a victim of her parents as Tahani. She was treated better but only as long as she always proved her worth to them. Neither of these girls ever felt anything like unconditional love. And it ultimately is not her fault her parents were awful or that she excelled at the things that mattered to them more than Tahani did. So, Kamilah taking steps meant a lot. I know that on this show pretty much everyone is redeemable. But I didn't like Eleanor's mother stuff at all. (Although I love Leslie Grossman and her previous appearances on this show.) The idea that Eleanor's mother might get to the Good Place but Eleanor couldn't is sickening. Nothing they showed warranted the redemption of a woman who essentially abandoned her child, killed her dog, allowed her to move out at 14 without a moment hesitation, and faked her death. I'm not saying such a person can't be redeemed. But her abandoning her life, letting her daughter think she was dead, and taking up in a very comfortable middle class lifestyle isn't it. Like, wow, she won't abandon the guy who pays for her nice lifestyle and his daughter. If she were helping a single dad raise a child and he were poor and she was having to work to support them I'd buy it. But if this family hits hard times she's out. And I get it's just the early steps. But nothing about this was earned from the horrible person she was. Well beyond anything Eleanor ever did. From what we've seen Tahani was never particularly kind or loving toward Kamilah as an adult either. It was never one way. Both contributed to their cold relationship. And Tahani had a huge centuries long journey to get to this point. It was completely sprung on Kamilah out of the blue. I hated that Michael told Eleanor about Chidi. It's just yet another rehash from season 2 when Mindy told her. I miss having the group together more. Well when she was first brought on it was for flashbacks when Eleanor was younger albeit we don't know how much younger when her father died. But mostly for when she was quite young. And I think Eleanor is younger than Kristen.

I would hope so!

I think the fact that she was pretty much offended that more men don't openly identify as bisexual means that she identifies as bi herself. If she wasn't into labels why would she think more men should have the label? Exactly. Chidi's personal moral code actively hurt the people he was closest to. And he knew it (this is why everyone hates moral philosophy professors) and that wasn't a problem for him. His moral code wasn't helping anyone. It was only for himself. Just as Tahani ultimately wasn't doing it for anyone else. She was doing it for her own self-worth.

I completely agree that the system needs to be changed. And, previously, that always seemed to be the point of the show. In season 1 the underlying idea was Eleanor wasn't a good person but she didn't belong in Hell. Even Chidi agreed and he has more exacting moral standards than anyone. I still think the show doesn't endorse the system it has set-up. And will one day change it. But I think the focus on Florence Nightingale is a mistake. Anyone who ended up being very famous for their deeds, as she was in her lifetime, is likely to have their morals corrupted in some way according the far too stringent standards of the Good Place. (That's not my personal belief but works under the show's intentionally unfair moral framework.) Power corrupts and all that. At some point, those people, unless they are exceptionally saintly, are likely to err on the Tahani side and start doing things for the acclaim rather than to help people. If anyone makes it into the Good Place it's probably randoms like Pillboi or even Simone if she's human. People who are good and kind every single day but don't get much in the way of earthly rewards for it. So, it wouldn't be people we've all heard of like Florence Nightingale. I don't think we can say that if she (or any other famous person) didn't get in no one stands a chance. Because the reason may be that their very fame ended up corrupting their motivation. As I said, I agree the system is unfair. So, I'm not endorsing the idea that every good thing you do is invalid if you also happen to get and LIKE the attention you receive for it. But that's sort of how the system works now. But there are lots of good people who don't get that. I agree with your post. I hate the shipping stuff for this particular show. And I thought they claimed they weren't into triangles? I don't like Jason and Tahani much but they are actual human beings who try. Janet is built to please humans and would never challenge Jason. It's inherently unhealthy. I was really happy this whole thing was resolved last season. And it's just one more unhappy revisiting brought by the bad choice to reboot everyone again at the end of the season.

It's true (although that was a very different set of circumstances with the Tudors being a new monarchy and viable male descendants of Edward III still around) but it's not as though gender was the most important thing for the English with succession. James II having a son is what prompted the Glorious Revolution so that his Protestant daughters would inherit. The British hated the idea of William III sharing rule (they had no choice) and would never have allowed Anne to share rule with her husband who was an English man (albeit a dolt.) So, they hated Catholics more than women. And proposals to change the rules so that a viable son of George III would inherit over Victoria never truly gained traction even though that is not a terribly unreasonable proposition and had precedent (King John was king over the son of his elder brother, Geoffrey.) If male heirs were so very important to them a son of King George III would have ended up on the thrown over Victoria. Although of course a son was always preferable up until the last few decades, by the time of Elizabeth II the British had almost fetishized Queens. It certainly wasn't considered as terrible a prospect as it was in Henry VIII's day by the time of Victoria.