CherithCutestory

No offense to St. Nicholas, who seemed like a cool dude, but I think it's fat pink Santa in his suit I'd have psychological issues watching be dismembered.

And slashing tires is also malicious. And the reason his buddy started a new dance crew is that Jason framed his girlfriend. And Eleanor barely knows him in this go around. Eleanor doesn't remember that he didn't give a crap about Tahani and Chidi having to go the Bad Place in his place. She doesn't remember that he was also fine with her going to the Bad Place as long as he could stay. When push comes to shove Jason has been shown to be more selfish than any of them. I, mean, I agree with you in theory. But I'm not sure if I could actually kill Santa if faced with it.

I mean not only is he incredibly stupid but he was also perfectly happy to let Tahani (and Chidi) literally burn in hell for his sins. He's funny but he's kind of the worst. And this is a show with literal demons.

I loved them together last season (when Michael was "good") but they are just so much better now. It reminds me of when Trevor told her that she'd be happier in the Bad Place because even though she will be miserable and they will torture her she would feel like she belonged. I know it's likely unintentional but I definitely agree. Michael was technically in the wrong but Chidi being forced to confront the actual implications of thought experiments he has trotted out for years is ultimately a good thing. I still think it's possible this is more purgatory than hell. And Michael is too low in the command chain to really know that. (In Catholic tradition purgatory involves torture too. So, having a middle manager torture people without knowing the end game isn't insane.)

It's funny because I was actually a supporter of Mark when the first two seasons aired. But I'm rewatching the show now and his scenes with Ann are just brutal to get through. It's like fun show fun show fun show torture fun show fun show. It's just like he's on a completely different show from everyone else. Like if you told me they shot his scenes on a green screen away from everyone else I'd be like "yeah that makes sense." And maybe it makes sense that he's less in tune with the more wacky characters but it was like that with down to earth Ann too. He just was like a block of wood. Ann doesn't always have a lot to do and she doesn't always add very much but she's in the same show. I definitely think that's the case. The much later episode where Ann has boxes from all her exes (including Tom, Andy, and Chris) but couldn't even bother putting in a box labelled Mark sealed it for me. This show is so into little Easter eggs and continuity (the accountant who wants Ben so badly is in the diabetes fundraiser in season 2 talking about tax prep) that that was a conscious choice. They wanted to rewrite history so Mark never existed.

That just means she never stole any herself. And they were all given to the non-profits. She never suggested she knew or cared what the non-profits did with them.

I think Jason belongs there more than any of them. I think he was a worse person on earth than Eleanor ever was. Eleanor was so malicious that she would go to a coffee place her boyfriend hated or throw a cup on the ground. She wasn't so malicious that she'd blow up a speed boat or slash tires of a supposed friend who has every reason to be angry with her. Jason absolutely knew what he was doing. And he did those things explicitly to hurt people. I think Jason sort of has all of their flaws. He is ridiculously selfish more so than Eleanor (he had no issue with Chidi and Tahani going to the Bad Place for his sins last season, he framed a woman to prevent his friend from moving away.) He was in constant need of attention for the sake of recognition and attention like Tahani (which is why he revealed himself at the concert.) His self-absorption and putting his own desires first hurt everyone around him like Chidi (his dance crew ended up wrecked anyway after he framed the girlfriend of a crew member, Pillboi ended up arrested.) I do agree with you on this. I think policing intentions get to be ridiculous and ends up in a cynical place. Yes, everyone is a little selfish. So what? But with Tahani she just raised money by throwing amazing parties which she loved.She directly benefited from those parties. It's not like she ever even sacrificed her own comfort a bit to help anyone. We don't even know that the money she raised really went to their purpose. And there are several large non-profits that end up spending very little on direct charity they claim to be supporting (although this claim can also be a bit overblown because percent of revenue to direct aid is not actually the best metric but it's true that those charities exist.) Did Tahani seem like the type to bother to find out if the money she was raising was going directly to those in need? She probably had little to no idea how that money was being spent nor did she care. With Tahani I think her actions are just so far removed from any good that came from them.

And, fwiw, one of the few timelines we got a slightly longer look at Chidi was upset when Eleanor said she was starting to like her soulmate (and then he did that spoken word jazz opera...) So I think overall we are being lead to believe that feelings developed more often than not. Whether or not they were acted on is a different story. That being said I'm sure their are timelines where Chidi and Tahani have sex. And ones where Eleanor and Tahani have sex. And, definitely, ones where Eleanor and Jason have sex. But not most of the times. I'm not surprised they only went 15 times though. Eleanor found out by accident the first time because Janet was running away with Jason. And the final time it was because they asked after finding out they were in the Bad Place but Michael not being present. But Eleanor is smart but has zero impulse control. Usually just blurts it out and game over. Only 14 times or so did she keep quiet long enough to ask Janet for help. Which seems right to me.

It seems in those stories that he is the one who betrayed people, though. He is the one who framed his buddy's girlfriend because his friend might move away. Then slashed his tires for daring to challenge him to dance off based on what he did. Jason was the one who did a shirty thing to his friend and then slashed his friends tires for daring to challenge him on it. And Pill Boy was loyal to him to the end. And he got him arrested through the world's dumbest plan.

I agree and the show has always used being cruel to dogs as shorthand for evil. In retrospect it's the huge red flag for Michael. Kicking a dog is up there with the most evil things you can do. It was a big part of why Eleanor ended up in the Bad Place. Not just the overfeeding story but adopting and then returning dogs the next day (which makes sooo much sense in this context) was on her graph that Shawn displayed. Eleanor's mom wasn't a lovable screw up. She was a genuinely horrible human being who Eleanor never questioned would end up in hell (mentioned in the first episode.) She's a person who tried to pick up her daughter's boyfriend at her father's funeral. She was such a negligent mother that a 14 year old girl was better off on her own and her mom didn't give a crap before she signed off on that arrangement. It also seemed like she constantly drove drunk (something Eleanor didn't do although the way she got rides so she could drink was shady af.) And she killed a dog. Because she's evil. And the show is not making any attempt to say otherwise. I don't think it was for laughs. Eleanor was a whip smart kid who had the potential to be a great person but she never really had a shot. That's not an excuse for the way she turned out. But it is an explanation.

I really love D'Arcy Carden's interviews. This is a recent one I don't think was linked here. She talks about how she sympathizes with Alexa now when people yell at "her." http://www.vulture.com/2017/10/the-good-place-janet-on-the-twist-and-the-audition.html?wpsrc=nymag

I was raised Catholic (not currently practicing but I was raised like super duper hardcore Catholic) so I've been worried about my own religious education shadowing how I watch the show. But to me this seems very much like purgatory! The whole idea is most people don't go straight to heaven because they are still stained by sin. But that most of those people don't deserve to spend eternity in hell. A lot of people think purgatory is just like God's waiting room. But it isn't. It's torture. It's fire and brimstone. It's a bad place. Just not the bad place. That's why the infamous indulgence scams in the Middle Ages worked so well. People would pay a lot of money to take years off of their loved ones being literally tortured. But eventually you could work off your sins and be purified for heaven. And I think it's entirely possible that Michael wouldn't even know the deal. He was fairly low down on the totem pole until recently. And even now his only job is to design torture. All he and the other demons would necessarily know is they have to torture these people. The whole eternal schematics is above their pay grade. I don't know if there is any merit to that theory. But I do think for sure that there is more going on than Michael is aware of. He is an office drone recently promoted to middle management. He doesn't have C-suite level knowledge. I do still like the theory that Janet is a fragment of God, himself/herself/itself. And she's just having a blast playing along.

But the budhole is what eventually got him caught by Tahani so it wasn't very smart. Eleanor knows she could ask for those things but is afraid that any changes to her "perfect" house would tip Michael off that she's not who she says she is. Michael pops in enough that he could notice any drastic changes. The Eleanor they though they had loved all of those things. That's why she only dared to exchange one clown picture for a sexy mailman. Easy to explain away as just one minor adjustment not a total rejection of everything she's supposed to love. Well, he's the only one who thinks Janet is a person not a robot (she's not a robot.) The others don't even consider that she may do something of her own volition without being commanded to do so. Because they think of her as a programmed electronic tool. She's Sexy Alexa. Jason doesn't understand what Janet is (although nobody seems to fully understand her including Michael.) Which endears him to her and makes her more human like. I don't know but I think it's plausible. Considering Tahani didn't make it I think almost anyone who is famous enough for us to know them probably didn't make it either. Florence Nightingale was probably deemed to have impure motives. Like she wanted the attention. This is not an attack on Florence Nightingale from me. I know she made major improvements to how hospitals were run and nursing, in general, that should earn anyone a spot. She didn't just raise money without much genuine engagement with people like Tahani. I'm just going by show logic as we know it so far. And most philosophers probably had a similar Chidi problem where they were too in their own heads and didn't engage with life enough to acquire points. (Although John Stuart Mill was pretty engaged with the world and did good things and he was a hero of Chidi's.)

Oh, wow. Just because he is a tool of evil who delights in tormenting humans you assume he must be a liar?! You are exhibiting some serious anti-demon prejudice. I think you are right. That fits with the video given to Mindy St. Clair. The Good Place wanted her. They fought for her. Sure she was a special case. But it's still interesting. It makes sense why the Bad Place wanted her. They love torturing people. But the Good Place probably wants everyone they can get their hands on too. But the shuffling of souls to the good and bad place is usually automatic according to very specific rules. If some souls were to cross the line then they likely would fight for them just like Michael pretended to.

And most of them weren't even self-aware enough to realize it was a serious problem preventing them from leading an actually fulfilling life and truly benefiting others. There is something to be said for being aware of your faults and earnestly trying to improve yourself even if you don't suddenly become a wonderful human being. But most of them were just completely blind to their short comings. That's the only area Eleanor has a one up on the rest (and why she almost always figured it) because she was aware she was a dirt bag. But of course in life that self-awareness was useless because there was no following impetus to change. (I am NOT someone who believes an honest jerk is better than a phony nice person. You don't get to be a jerk just because you are honest about it. So, I'm not saying Eleanor is better than the rest in any way, shape or form. Just that that moment of recognition of your faults is an important first step in improving. It's meaningless if you don't go to step two.) Even when they realize they are in the Bad Place Chidi and Tahani don't get why. (Tahani did last season but only because Eleanor had pointed it out a couple of episodes earlier when none of her points counted because she had impure motives.) Chidi thinks it is all because of one horrible unforgivable thing he did (that nefarious almond milk) and Tahani is baffled. Not that they wasted their lives consumed by their own ultimately petty concerns.

I am a little disappointed that they embraced making her that awful. Poor Tahani. Last episode she was the worst. But like her parents more so up her own butthole to notice her sister. This time she was actively antagonistic. He deserves to be in the Bad Place just for that! If they really had been rebooted Eleanor would have popped out a "THIS is the Bad Place" right about then. I definitely feel like they have embraced the Veronica Mars this season. But I also feel like Ted Danson has embraced the Sam Malone this season after a lifetime of playing everything but.

But Michael has tried to not bring them together immediately. He's tried to let it happen more organically. It appears as though Janet has brought Eleanor and Chidi together most of the time. It appears that Eleanor always figured out she needs someone to teach her to be a better person. She always asks Janet for help finding someone. Janet always brings her to Chidi. (And Eleanor always asks for someone less dorky. Chidi always helps her anyway.) Michael probably doesn't know about that pattern.

I don't think the issue with Mindy is that the good balanced the bad. That is something that must happen a decent number of times. I think the issue was as Eleanor said. Did she get credit for the good work? Because it wasn't Mindy who did it it was her sister. Mindy died before she could put her plan into action. Knowing Mindy there is at least a 50/50 chance she would have taken all of that money and spent it on coke and forgot all about her plan if she had lived. So they couldn't decide if she should get the points or not. If Mindy gets the points she would go to the Good Place. If she didn't she'd go to the Bad Place. But they couldn't ever decide if she should get them or not. Because it's genuinely impossible to know what she would have done. So they had to compromise. It is very possible that Eleanor had a lot of small good deeds that accumulated too, though. Small things she did without thinking. Like taking her cousin to the mall. Or how she was bringing her boyfriend coffee before they got into a fight about it. Eleanor's flashbacks all focused on the bad stuff she did to get there. But even in those there were hints that she occasionally did good things. Just not nearly enough to offset the bad. And most of her bad actions were really just minor inconveniences to most people. Don't get me wrong I think people who regularly scream at waiters should burn in hell. But it's still just a terrible encounter for that other person. At the end of the day, the person who suffered long-term for her actions was her. Not other people. She is the one who had isolated everyone and was all alone and miserable by the time of her death. The big exception being that poor dog she overfed. I think Janet could likely work in any neighborhood of the Good Place or the Bad Place. But she can't work in Mindy's house because it's off the grid. As long as the neighborhood operates on the mainframe (which she is) she can function. But Mindy's place doesn't even have a mainframe. It's only for a thousand years though. Even in Michael's original plan he didn't intend it to go longer than a thousand years. So, that's like an afternoon when you are working with eternity. At most, it's a weekend. It's only reassigning those demons for a short period of time, for them. It's like an office retreat. And, as was said above, if the Pilot did well then they would be able to introduce more humans and eventually it would be majority humans torturing each other. But it isn't all about the economics. They presumably have plenty of demons. It's also about making the whole thing more fun (for them.)

But, in the end, it does always fail. So, it's genuinely not a very useful hell. And it doesn't even take that long. So, I don't think the show is at all endorsing the idea that this is genuinely worse than torture. Michael Schur isn't Jean-Paul Sarte. His worlds tend to be pretty optimistic. Michael doesn't have much respect for or fondness toward humans. So he thinks this will work. But it doesn't. Because humans aren't static. They don't just torture each other. They learn from each other and grow. At least in this world.

Well, Michael could just simply fail to understand humanity. Or there is more to it. But I think his plan is perfect for Chidi and Tahani. Because they genuinely believe they are good people who deserve to be in the Good Place. Even the almond milk joke, which is hilarious, just brings home how much Chidi doesn't really understand his flaws or the mistakes he made in life. His mind goes to one random action. Not a series of life choices that hurt people and helped no one, including himself. So, it would take a lot of torture for them to really come to terms with the truth without Eleanor prompting them. Because it means completely restructuring the way they view themselves. This has to be the Good Place. Or they aren't good people (not necessarily true but how they see it.) Any flaws in the place are just learning curves or someone else's fault because the alternative is just too terrible to contemplate. Or it's because Michael is well meaning but this is his first time and he got a few things a little off. Basically the plan will work on them because denial is powerful. And it's mostly perfect for Jason because he's too dumb to figure it out except 1 out of 800 times. But the problem is none of that would ever work on Eleanor long term. Even if they didn't have the bit about her explicitly being in the wrong place, Eleanor knows she's sort of a dirtbag. When she woke up the very first time she asked with trepidation which place she was in. She knew it wasn't definite that she'd go to heaven. Mostly she even agrees she doesn't belong in the Good Place she just thinks she should be in a Medium Place. It's not some total re-imagining of how she views herself to picture herself in the Bad Place. It doesn't shake her entire world to suddenly realize that she ended up in hell. She has nothing to be in denial about. This is obviously true because the premise is that she is a mistake. But even if that wasn't the premise it would be true. So, of course, Eleanor is always going to figure it out. Every single time. Why the heck wouldn't she? She has no reason to pretend there isn't something off about heaven being so miserable. It doesn't invalidate every choice she ever made in life to admit that. Because she never thought her life choice were valid in the first place.

Totally agree., I think the key to her is it wasn't the clothes or the soulmate or the house that really broke her. It was Eleanor being the Best Person and wearing a sash. And it was someone else hosting and doing the entertaining. She desperately does want nice clothes and a nice house and a perfect soulmate. But really she wants to be appreciated more. She wants to do things for others and be acknowledged for it. Her intentions may not be the most noble but they aren't really as shallow as they may seem either. Just dress like one! Think of all the pockets you can put shrimp in.

Her powers don't work in the Medium Place. Last season she had to walk somewhere for the first time when they got there. It got old fast. (For her not for me.) I say throw all three together in a relationship. It could actually work on this show. I think the issue is then what? They go to the Good Place and people/angels will notice people who don't belong. With Mindy she is alone and bored so she will always let them come in. Even if she gets annoyed with it. Although, maybe the folks in the Real Good Place will be too polite to ask. Stuff like THIS is why they are in the Bad Place! So selfish. Mindy + Cocaine is my OTP!

True! But Eleanor and Chidi make me pretty happy too. I also would accept Eleanor/Chidi/Tahani. Any combination of these people could make me smile except Jason romantically with anyone other than Janet.

I will NEVER FORGIVE this show for not giving me more of the Tahani is your soulmate scenario! Except for that one soul crushing error in judgment, that was perfect. Watching Eleanor (and Jason that one time) figure it out every single time would have gotten really dull if they played it out more. But at the same time why wouldn't she figure it out every time? It's not like she had a note first season. The way they did it was just perfect. Michael would never just give up after three tries. My favorites of the Groundhog Afterlife were Eleanor just walking in on him talking into his recorder, his going off about it while Eleanor was sitting right there, and the revolving clown figures (?). Oh and Chidi being chased in the background. The interesting thing to me is that it seems like Janet was the cause behind Chidi and Eleanor being reunited each time. And Chidi and Eleanor being together will always lead to growth (for both) and recognition. I read speculation on another forum that Janet was actually God. Or like a fragment of God's consciousness. Like she's the Holy Ghost. This episode made me think it was true. Michael has no idea what/who he stole. And she's just forking with him and having a blast.

I think you're 100% right. And just to add to what others have said about Chidi (which I agree with completely) I think he is summed up pretty well in the first season finale. He doesn't suggest taking a spot in the Bad Place until Real Eleanor/Vicky says she'll go because her soulmate doesn't love her. And then he only does so because he knows he'll feel guilty about her going forever and it won't be the Good Place. When Tahani suggests that she and he go to the Bad Place he responds "the whole reason I was going to the Bad Place was because Real Eleanor. If you go to the Bad Place it doesn't make sense for me to go..." It only makes sense for him to go when he knows he'll be miserable anyway. Not because he's some horribly selfish guy (he isn't.) But because that's how he sees morality. As something to dig down into until you get to the absolute truth of the matter. Not just doing the right thing or a good thing for someone else for the sake of it. He's too in his own head. He sees morality as a mostly rational thing to the extreme that it becomes completely meaningless. Telling the guy he liked his boots was a nice thing even if it was a lie. Telling a guy he hated his boots after major surgery was a bad thing even if it was the truth. That something that we understand instinctively. But he could never just trust his instincts.