CherithCutestory

But they didn't change enough to pass the test. Currently, in this universe, almost isn't good enough. You either have enough points or you don't. You either pass a test or you don't. I don't think that's OK. I don't think Schur and the writers are endorsing that as OK. But it seems to be the way things are now. Nobody said God or Whomever had to abide by human notions of morality. However, I wouldn't be surprised of Michael, Eleanor and Chidi eventually manage to convince The Powers That Be that things are wrong and should be changed.

I definitely thought she was perfect! Anyone too big would have been gimicky. She played it like a real role. She isn't a demon so she's basically decent and nice. But this is her job and she has to play by the rules. I think it perfectly encapsulates what is wrong with this whole system and what needs to change. Both Jason and Tahani showed that humans can improve. And they shouldn't go to hell just because they aren't quite there yet. (I mean I guess Chidi did too since he did finally decide but that also seemed more of a hilarious bit.) Also, Eleanor is going to go to hell just because her friends didn't improve enough. Although it's interesting because Eleanor has already made this choice much earlier in her moral progress. She outed herself in season 1 because Chidi's guilt was killing him. She was ready to voluntarily go to the Bad Place right before she found out about the Medium Place. And then she returned from Mindy's because Chidi and Tahani were to be sent to hell in her place. She didn't even hesitate that time. It's interesting because Eleanor is pretty instinctively a good person when it comes to big stuff. Even if she's not in the small stuff. I think it's just because she's used to being decisive. She raised herself (while Tahani's parents were crap they were wealthy and she had people raising her rather than go it all alone like Eleanor did.) She couldn't afford to be indecisive like Chidi. She couldn't be a space cadet like Jason. She has self-esteem issues like Tahani but she couldn't afford to let them consume her. She had to work and make decisions to feed and clothe herself. Or she wouldn't have survived. So, once she decided to behave like a good person. That decision was made. She doesn't second guess herself once she's chosen to do something. Eleanor has chosen to be better and then did it. Because that's what she does. She chooses to do things and does them. Honestly, one look at Aria's outfits and Spencer should have figured out they were in the Bad Place.

I actually think Midge is very consistent day to night. She jokes and swears in the daytime too. The only time we've seen her get really drunk is when Joel left her, which is understandable, and then the time she got high with the jazz musicians. But otherwise we've only seen her drink moderately. For instance when she was out all night with Susie seeing comedians she was sober when she got home and only sipped a couple of drinks. She even pointed out that she can't just get drunk every time she wants to perform (Susie asked if she had ever met any comedians.) She also didn't sacrifice him up. She dissed Penny not Joel. That he put her in that position doesn't mean she's sacrificing him up. Those were his actions. I also don't think she's said anything particularly mean about her parents. She's said they have sex. I don't think she's the perfect lady in the day, at all. She's good at being a housewife and putting herself together. But she often says inappropriate things.

So long story short he's just an asshole.

I never know what to think with this show but I really like this theory. I believe Michael believed his view of how the universe operated. I believe Shawn probably does too. But I think it's likely they are just cogs in the machine not privy to the higher motivations. Even though I'm not religious, I was raised Catholic and our own upbringing will always cloud how we see these things. But in Catholicism purgatory isn't a medium place. It's a place of punishment and fire and brimstone. But with the chance of going to heaven. I don't think it's impossible that there is something along those lines going on. But it's also possible I'm just biased toward the worldview I was raised in. Evidence for that is sparse. But there is that the demons don't actually seem to torture people for eternity. They think people get tortured for eternity but it seems that it's typical to transfer people out of their torture departments. Michael thought his plan could last a thousand years not eternity. The way they were talking at the party suggests a lot of movement going on. The demons also get moved between departments. Meaning they don't spend all of time with the souls they have. They don't necessarily know what happens when their piece is done. Also with the traveling through the layers that seems to be happening now it's becoming more and more like its loosely based on the Divine Comedy. Of course, Dante's world includes purgatory. It's possible that Eleanor and co. make them change their ways but I like the idea that there is more going on. Mike Schur's worlds usually argue that people are petty, ridiculous, selfish, and flawed in various ways but ultimately decent for the most part. In this universe being just decent can damn you to an eternity in hell. I could swallow that as being true in some shows but I don't think Schur genuinely would create a universe like this. Under this system, most of the characters on Parks and Rec would be in the Bad Place. No way is that right.

Joel also seemed super in love with Midge the first time we saw her do her brisket routine. And that was a week before he bombed. And after he bombed he confessed he'd been cheating on her for months. So, even when he seemed to completely adore her and thought she supported his comedy 100% she still wasn't enough for him. I don't think there is much more to it than his being a spoiled, entitled brat who doesn't appreciate what he has. And I think he left because he couldn't stand the idea of Midge not adoring him completely. Just like he said when they fought in his apartment.

I don't mind Hawaiian pizza either. I also would never order it myself but I think it's fine. The hot fruit taboo is super weird. Most fruit is great warm. Some is better warm. Fried bananas > bananas. Blueberries are great but also great in oatmeal or a nice hot pie. That humanity alone among animals decided to cook our food but this whole category is off limits for it is silly. Wait a minute... I'm the bad place.

The GG are trash. But SAG has lost its damn mind. I'm from Boston (although I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm a Pats fan) and I was actively rooting for the Jags. As if we need another. Jason deserves this.

How could it be meaningful? The show is about her being a comic not a mother. I don't know of any show where the male character is considered ruined because he's not around his kids enough.

She was spending time with him in episode 4. And why should the show waste any time on pointless scenes? Honestly, I don't care if she is a bad mother. Ethan can become a serial killer for all I care. As long as I don't have to watch forced scenes of child actors.

Well, I hope that is cut too. But at least Joel is an adult who communicates on screen. Not a four year old who can't be expected to have any interesting dialogue. But they've done this in small moments with her schlepping all the way downtown with him to buy records at that record store because she saw some he might like. She only went to the park because he wanted to and was encouraging interests of his. Yes, she lets another mother watch him for a bit (which she volunteered to do) but the rest of the day had been with him. Her holding the baby while she reads the ads. Also, with the fact that she's not the one who abandoned them, in the first place.

Joel's mom had a great line in the pilot. Paraphrasing but "we have to make excuses not to see family now? What's the world coming to?" They were so nice to Penny because she isn't and will never be family. They were polite and put on a nice show for her. Because that is how polite people treat strangers. They can put on a scene in front of family. Joel's dad can be a jerk and his mom can be neurotic. Because it's family. I loved Joel's mom this episode though. She's actually quite charming. I've been thinking about that movie ever since I hard of this show. And I couldn't remember the name to save my life. SO thank you. They do wear heels at work. But they commute in flats. They were changing from flats to heels at their lockers before. It's still a long day on your feet in heels but it's the commuting that kills you. I hope not that seems like a pretty boring episode to me. It's really amazing that he really thought this would work out. Never mind that he thought Penny could replace Midge. But that he thought Midge was the part of their couple that was replaceable, in the first place!! Midge could have any schmuck and they'd be a fun couple to spend time with. Because Midge is there! It's not Joel and [insert spouse here]. It's Midge and Joel, I guess.

I think Midge probably balanced the check books and paid the bills but didn't realize where the money was coming from. She thought Joel paid for the apartment not his father. She didn't know it was his father who put extra money in their account to make sure checks didn't bounce. She trusted him. Just like she managed the details of his comedy "career" but didn't know where the actual act came from. The way I see it a perfect housewife is the Director of Operations to her husband's CEO. My next door neighbors when I was a kid had a similar arrangement. They were a huge Italian family living in two two family houses near each other and the kids were basically communal. Usually with the grandmother or one of the aunts. And, like you say, I think Midge thought it was OK because it had always been OK. She left her kids with the parents all night both times we saw her off with Joel. I am totally fine with Midge's level of involvement with her kids. I don't need to see the kids any more than we do. She's not a natural mother but we see her spend time with them. When she went to the record store her first thought was that Ethan would love these. Then she actually went way out of her way to bring him to that same store. She does put some effort in. But the fact is stand-up comics aren't infamous for being amazing parents. What I want to know is when does she sleep?

That was the worst. He had this big plan to step up and provide for his family. It lasted a day. And then "fuck it." And I don't believe he was angry at Midge talking about them. He was angry that she's good from the first second he heard it. Another contrast between Midge and Joel I like is that she enjoys doing her day job. She sees it as material and cares about doing a good job. Joel thinks the world is unfair because he has to work at a job handed to him. I agree that may be true for some but it isn't universal. There are well-adjusted hilarious people. And many of her best jokes weren't Joel related. Her parents sex life, her son asking about the lump, her work were all part of her tight ten. Not her bad marriage. I don't want her to get back with Joel. But their hating each other isn't necessary for her comedy. Although we all know he would never have followed through with that. Like his father says he isn't a follow through guy. And he decided that supporting his family didn't mean shit because of hearing Midge's recording. They have so many clues. I think it's inevitable that they put the pieces together. She's out late but either won't say where she goes or lies, she has to dress up nice, she was arrested for obscenity and exposing herself in public (Abe knows she was arrested and can get the records), and she suddenly has very expensive presents from benefactors but she won't say who. They are smart people they'll figure out she's a high-end escort soon! He said he tried something original with one joke and then Midge points out she wrote that joke. Then he says it bombed and she says because he didn't tell it right. It was all the way in the first episode and so much has been packed into this season but it's worth remembering that even when he was the comic and she was the supportive wife anything remotely original about his act was her. She wrote an opener for him in the cab. She encouraged him to work off the cuff like on the holes in his sweater and then later clarified that she had thought he would say something funny about it. She understood that stealing acts is wrong. She understands why Bob Newheart's delivery is better. She understood about schmoozing people to get stage time. It's always been her. I don't see what he could possibly add to her act. And how could she ever trust he wasn't stealing bits that she will have to say? My nightmare is that they do officially get back together and he decides he wants to manage her rather than Susie. I wouldn't be surprised if Midge is served with divorce papers in the first episode of next season. But, as was said above, he isn't going anywhere. I think they'll get together on a more equal basis by the end of the second season even if I don't like it. But then the tension might come from him wanting to insert himself in her comedy career more than she likes but since she's still ultimately the good housewife she doesn't feel comfortable saying that.

This was the best episode of the season for me. I know I shouldn't but I kind of feel bad for Penny. I really liked Astrid. I loved her interactions with Rose. I love that Rose has this ability to turn a person into an utter mess with nary a word. See also Susie. And I liked Midge's relationship with her brother. I think it's interesting that Midge basically really did have a perfect life up until recently. Not just superficially. But she had two parents who have their little idiosyncrasies but love her and love each other. And she had a brother she loves and who she is proud of and who thinks she's genuinely great. And sure her dad may prefer him but her mom prefers her so all is even. Then she went onto a seemingly perfect marriage which included a healthy sex life. The more we see of her life the more it makes sense that she just spiraled the way she did when things fell apart. She's not the stereotypical 50s housewife used to stoically covering up all the dark things. She never really had to repress serious things before! She doesn't know how to now. Also, while I agree with a lot of the substance of what Susie said her screaming at Midge was BS. Midge didn't have to tell Susie she was meeting with an agent because Susie was NOT her manager at that point in time. They had broken up. Also, the agent was genuinely sprung on Midge even if she was smart enough to know what her second rate Nichols wanted from her. I do think the substance was spot on even if the premise was faulty. Midge is way too smart and crafty to play dumb the way she does. I really liked that they introduced the possibility of her being in a second rate Nichols and May act because, as far as the style of her humor and the way she carries herself, she is more Elaine May than any other female comic of the time. I get that her overall arc and some of the jokes she deliberately hones for her act is all Joan Rivers. But her off the cuff wit is really more May. But I also think Susie was right in that she wasn't ready for William Morris and she shouldn't just be a prop for a guy. Which is so absolutely not what Elaine May (who was funnier and quicker than Mike Nichols) was but she had an almost literal lifetime of experience in comedic performance thanks to growing up in Yiddish theater and was trained at the precursor to Second City. Midge is a newcomer who could be easily manipulated or so she seems. They wanted Midge to be a prop. So much about the characters is not even close to era specific. Sometimes I prefer to just think of this show as an Alternate Universe 1950s not the actual one. Maybe Lenny Bruce doesn't OD! Maybe while on tour Midge will stop JFK from being assassinated. Maybe years from now bell bottoms never come into style! Anything can happen! Honestly, it doesn't bother me though. The Palladinos have their talents but I am not remotely interested on their take on the civil rights movement. I'm not sure that handling that with the respect it deserves is really in their wheelhouse. I agree with you. Although Abe also has a finely tuned sarcasm. He's really quite funny and especially with his students. The funny thing about Midge is she always wanted to become her mother but really she is so much like her father. Minus the math skills. The place Abe is most comfortable and secure is standing up in front of his students.

He's too pathetic to be emasculated, in the first place.

Elaine May did quite alright despite being gorgeous and well put together. Joan Rivers also may not have ever been a traditional knockout, although she was very cute, but she was always well put together when she did shows. Diller was the first and in some ways she was adhering to old standards that came out of vaudeville. But the ones who followed very quickly on her heels didn't do that. Including Joan, who Midge is loosely based on. And Sophie referenced that outdated advice when she said it was a problem that men want to sleep with Midge not laugh with her. I think Sophie's on-stage persona was very Totie Fields. Totie's real name was Sophie. Diller had the wacky look but her act wasn't really that schlocky. There is also a Minnie Pearl aspect with the Depression part. That she felt the pressure to change herself was all Diller. I think Midge's overall arc is based very much on Joan Rivers. I don't think much of her act is. I suppose the Sophie take down is something Joan would do but not until a little later in her career when she was established. And even then I think the things she would criticize would be very different from what Midge did. She would never have done to Phyllis Diller what Midge did to Sophie, though. Joan's early stuff was very self-deprecating. And Midge never really is. Midge is also usually not mean just honest (although Joan doesn't get mean until the late 70s.) Midge is really too confident and secure in herself to be based on any one female comic of the time. But I actually think the way she carries herself is most like Elaine May as is her dry wit. Even though they explicitly rejected her going down that path it would have been a natural one for her.

But not having the right number of chips IS zagging just to zag. It just happens to have been a very predictable zag to zag. There was absolutely no logical reason why he would only have four. Except they need that shocking moment. It's why it was such a tiresome trope. Nobody is questioning Michael's sacrifice. It's the lazy way they chose to get to it. Compare it to Eleanor being willing to sacrifice herself in season 1 when Chidi murdered Janet. That moment was slowly built up perfectly. Not some random thing thrown in the episode to get from X to Z. Or that Shawn obviously chose to go to Mindy's right that second. Or that they just happened to be unveiling their exhibit on that very day. The show is usually better than this. But this was very poorly structured.

It took me four episodes to realize this was Rachel Brosnahan from House of Cards and Olive Kitteridge. And I loved her in both of those things. Major spoiler for HOC I thought she was great in this show from the start but I am totally wowed by her talent now. Everything about her persona is different from anything else I've seen her in. Agreed. And I think we are supposed to find him charming and sympathetic even though he's such a jerk. And I just think he's a pathetic loser. I don't even mind what he did in leaving his wife. It's just his personality I can't stand.

I'm sorry, I didn't quote deep enough. The thread I was responding to was about why they weren't just doing what they know to be "right" in this universe. Like why wouldn't Chidi just help the demons torture bad people when torturing bad people is morally correct in the universe scheme and he knows it. Not why he originally got sent to the Bad Place.

Yes but the show doesn't agree with the premise the universe is built on. The underlying premise of the show is the universe is wrong. Medium people don't deserve to go to hell. Almost anyone, even an evil demon, is capable of redemption. If even God, Himself or Herself or Itself, says different he, she, or it is wrong. Chidi doesn't want to just follow the rules to get what he wants. He isn't opportunistic in that way. He wants to be a genuinely moral human being. And there is an inherent conflict with the moral structure of the universe and genuine morality. Eleanor and everyone else is learning morality from him. So, it has made them better people but not necessarily in the formula that gets you into the Good Place under the existing system. ETA: I should say the universe is wrong or the whole premise is actually very different from what Michael understands it to be. But the universal scheme as it has been presented to us is definitely not endorsed as moral in the show.

I hope they save Bill Murray for God. Not because of my love of Bill Murray (I mean I like him fine but I'm not one of those people who think he's like a god) but because he's perfect to have invented the arbitrary, insane and indifferent universe. A universe where basically OK people go to hell for being indecisive like Chidi or British and unbearable like Tahani is a universe where God woke up at noon, made some rules, and then got bored and went golfing. Bill Murray would be perfect. I could see him shrug and say "Just send all French people to the Bad Place" before taking a nap. ETA: Actually, I forgot. I want God to be Original Janet (a combination of Good and Bad Janet). So never mind.

Definitely agree. Lot of good laughs and a bad Good Place episode is better than the best of most. But I would say this was straight-up a bad Good Place episode. All of the trope stuff you mention, which most of the time they subvert rather than adhere to strictly. It was just predictable. And sloppy stuff that seems beneath them. They've been in the afterlife for hundreds of years. Why isn't Joe Francis there yet? We've seen Chidi lie and deceive people before even in this reboot. He was deceiving Vicky on a couple of levels. But now he is just incapable of it? That Michael's solution wasn't an answer to the Trolley Problem, at all. The things they had the four say in their exhibit was all really obvious. Small stuff but the show is usually sharper. And combined with the fact that the overall structure of the episode was trope heavy and predictable it's just not a great episode, imo. I no longer have any respect for Mike Schur as a writer or man.

Yeah, I think she was exaggerating for the bit. That's her thing once she embraces stand-up and it comes naturally to her. Reality exaggerated. And Abe partly followed along and partly was trying to justify his objections. But the insane costs of weddings (even before the current age where that has exploded) is something otherwise generous people can get freaked out about. That's not really cheap but sane. And such a minor spoiler but That being said, the show does skirt the stereotype line when it comes to Joel's family, I think. But then they are significantly less fleshed out than Midge's side of the family.

I don't think Eleanor feels that way about Chidi right now. It's too soon and they haven't had the quality alone time they've had in past unlives. In the first go around they spent a lot of time together and even then neither of them were really certain if they had feelings for each other toward the end. Although they knew they might. I think she was just obsessed with the idea of having that kind of connection with someone. That's why she kept watching. Eleanor has never felt genuinely loved in her whole life. Her parents were dirtbags who let her emancipate herself at 14 without a second thought. She never allowed herself to get close to a boyfriend. She had basically no truly close friends. I think seeing herself love and be loved shook her. I don't think it means she's there yet with Chidi right now. But the idea that she could have that is always on her mind. I think that was the point of the entire episode. These are all very lonely people who crave deep connections with others. And it was the point of last episode for the non-people, Michael and Janet. Michael is deeply lonely and was thrilled to finally have a friend in Janet. Janet missed that connection she had that made her feel things more than Jason specifically. We don't know a ton about his family life but Jason jumping to marriage so quick (twice!) makes me think he is fairly desperate to have one. We know Chidi never said I love you to a woman on earth. We know Tahani felt unloved by her parents and was never authentic to anyone else. So, just basic boyfriend stuff like getting to hang out and not put on a show was mind blowing to her with Jason. I think the show is deconstructing the entire idea that there is a soulmate for everyone. Eleanor could be happy with Chidi or Tahani or even Michael (I don't think Jason would challenge her but he does challenge Tahani and Janet in different ways.) What people want is to be loved and challenged by someone they love and whom they challenge. It's not necessarily a One True Soulmate situation.