BabySpinach

I think it's interesting that Amenadiel straight-up pointed out that Lucifer had no idea that Maze was angry at him. She'd chosen to seethe silently and scapegoat him without risking those feelings being challenged like they were in 5.03, when Lucifer had reasonably explained that she was no longer his servant, therefore he had no right to ask her to abandon the life she'd built for herself, and that Amenadiel could have flown her down if she really wanted to join him, to which Maze had no retort. She'd even admitted that her anger was misdirected, just before Asshat Michael returned to jumpstart a fresh grievance and misdirect it some more. And Lucifer had no context into why his "just a demon" comment was so specifically hurtful because Maze deliberately kept her anger at him unspoken. He knew nothing of her desire for a soul (which I'm pretty sure is just another excuse for her to avoid truly dealing with her issues) or her reunion with Lilith, so I'm strongly against the interpretation that he deserves the blame for her betrayal, or that his distracted comment is concrete proof that he sees her as a mere tool/has no respect for her. It's also a disservice to her character's agency when her own choices are constantly put on others' shoulders. I'm not super into woobifying Maze, of all people. Her fight with Lucifer was a lot more one-sided than any previous confrontation between them. He just looked so done with her, especially after she threw her blades at him then gave one to Michael that almost resulted in a human's death. Hopefully, we'll finally move forward with these two and get some permanent development (on both their parts) instead of another off-screen blanket forgiveness and reset.

Interesting emphasis on Dean, with Sam saying how Dean protecting him is the only thing he's known to be true, and Cas saying how Dean has fought for this world. Lots of teary Jensen, too. Not getting my hopes up of course, but still notable.

I knew that Chloe was playing Michael as soon as she suddenly accepted the "new Lucifer" without question, but I was certain of it by the time she started openly seducing him. We've seen this woman try to flirt with someone she actually loves, and she is a complete awkward disaster at it. But here, she was waaaaay too smooth to be genuine.

My biggest gripe with this otherwise great episode was Linda calling Lucifer "unfathomably narcissistic" or something along those lines. Self-absorbed, sure, but narcissistic? She does know that Lucifer spent thousands of years in Hell partly for her and Charlie, right? Also that he genuinely hated himself until very recently? Just seemed like a weirdly ungrateful and unfair thing to say, even while drunk.

I like that Lucifer had a reasonably freaked-out reaction to losing one of the major pillars of his identity, that his feelings were consistently validated by Chloe (once Linda gave her some perspective), and how well they communicated in general: direct, supportive, no misunderstandings, no unnecessarily hurtful angst. I was also relieved that his latest crisis didn't sabotage the case or their brand new relationship in any way, but actually brought him and Chloe closer (and his new gun saved them both!). This was one of those positive expectation subversions that this show has made more of a habit of since its network change.

Solid first half of season 5, though (so far) not the home run that season 4 was. The Good: Double Tom Ellis! Michael is such a dastardly, crooked little gremlin that he's almost sort of endearing. As terrible as he is, he's also scarred and bent and twisted and insecure, and he's always got this self-satisfied, shit-eating grin on his face like a deliberately misbehaving child. If he had a moustache, he'd twirl it unironically. His characterization is pretty basic, but he's fun to watch, which for now is good enough for me. We'll probably get to know him better in 5B. Michael got found out by episode 2, and Chloe figured him out on her own. Return of Lucifer and Dan's bromance, and Dan finding out. Super sweet, and I'm glad that Dan came around after the initial shock. It'd been hard to watch them in season 4. Deckerstar cherry finally popped! About time that something moved forward on that front! Lucifer briefly losing his mojo (and getting whammied by Chloe) was also an interesting idea that was relevant to their relationship. And this could have been the start of a slippery slope where everything that made Lucifer distinctive and cool was slowly stripped away, but thankfully this was temporary (and he even got his invulnerability back!). Ella gets a drama-heavy sideplot that lets her be a person rather than a motor-mouthed quirk machine. Lucifer proves multiple times that he can easily take Maze in a fight, even when he's not particularly motivated to hurt her. I love badass Maze, but there's no way she would have been Lucifer's loyal servant if she was capable of kicking his ass. Demons value strength and power over all else, and she was no different until very recently. This dynamic makes much more sense than what 2.17 implied, that she and Lucifer were evenly matched. Lucifer confirmed to have both angel wings and devil face! Carries over nicely from previous season, when he fully accepted the two sides of himself and used them both to save the day. Charlie is not some shiny special snowflake. In my opinion, there's no character type more boring and obnoxious that a super-powered baby, so I'm glad that they wisely steered clear of that. The Meh: I found the fourth episode really dull. I was invested in what was happening in the main story, not a filler flashback. There were no real stakes. The return of some unnecessary angst and drama, and more "Lucifer being an oblivious idiot" than I would have liked, especially after the massive improvement in season 4. Also not a fan of more over-the-top fawning over Chloe as the most amazing woman who ever amazinged, most prominently via the introduction of a still-lovestruck ex that gave me unpleasant flashbacks of Cain's advances and Lucifer's similarly hare-brained, jealousy-fueled shenanigans. Lucifer chasing after her like an apologetic puppy after she learned of her miracle status. I just didn't like seeing him that way, especially after the thousands of years he spent in Hell for her (and the world). He also should have been allowed to tell her the whole story about Candy, and how he'd tried to give her a choice. Much less development and examination of Lucifer as a character; most of his significant moments were tied to his romance with Chloe. More soapy and schlocky, not as focused and lean as the devil/angel inner conflict of season 4. The Bad: MAZE. Seriously, this is like the fourth time she's betrayed Lucifer. A sympathetic motivation or sob story may work once or even twice, but when a character CONSTANTLY lashes out and breaks the trust of their loved ones, I start wondering why we're supposed to root for them in the first place. Maze's biggest chip on her shoulder is that no one puts her first and everyone abandons her, but then she also deliberately screws with her friends and makes their lives miserable, over and over again. She's the only character who regularly does this, even though they all have their various baggage and hangups yet somehow manage not to constantly betray their friends. In terms of backstabbing, Dan is the only one even remotely close. Intentional or not, the writers are gradually making it look like she's the real problem. I gritted through Maze's behavior in season 3 because I liked her so much, but I couldn't muster up much sympathy for her this time. She wasn't even particularly funny or entertaining this season. It's a real shame, because she used to be so awesome and badass and hilarious. The actress deserves better. But overall, I felt that season 5A was still better than most of seasons 1, 2, and 3. Cool action and effects, good character drama (for the most part) and humor, and a very watchable Double Tom Ellis performance.

My first reaction upon hearing the news: ASHFFGHSKJDCNBVCE!!!!!!! More measured reaction: I am SO happy that Jensen's got something on the horizon that's relatively well-known and well-regarded. With the outpouring of buzz and excitement over this news, and his considerable popularity, I have my fingers crossed that he'll get to show off his chops in a nuanced and interesting role. I can't imagine Jensen as a one-dimensional bit-player after all this fanfare, so I'm excited! But mostly, I'm just glad that he'll be free of the CW and onto a more quality network/creative team. ETA: Also, Kripke mentioned Jensen bringing not only humor, but "danger" and "pathos" to the role. Sounds meatier than "snivelling coward" to me!

Well, the Lucifer season 5 trailer dropped today, and Hope this is the right thread.

The fact that they revealed this evil twin "twist" in the trailer implies that it's only the set-up rather than the whole plot of season 5A. I am very curious as to how they'll explain where Michael's been this whole time, why he and Lucifer are identical, what their dynamic is like, etc. Of course this well-worn trope has the potential to be a terrible schlock-fest, but after how season 4 somehow made the love triangle work (another trope that is very hard to do well) I'll give them the benefit of the doubt!

I'd say that the whole God bullet "story" qualifies as a swerve. It ended with Sam giving up, Chuck regaining his former power, and it played no part in defeating him even though Chuck's "weakness" was laid on thick in the first half of the season. Jack's super special mission feels the same to me. But I also learned the hard way not to waste my time speculating with these writers. That's another big advantage that bingeing has over weekly watching, lol.

Since the first 13 episodes of season 15 have hit Netflix, I've rewatched them in 3 to 4 episode chunks over a few days. Some thoughts... (I really missed Jensen's face and Dean's utterly unique, super-sized personality, so I may be a bit favorably biased, lol.) Definitely a more enjoyable watch than the first time around. Bingeing it was wayyyy better than getting just one episode a week. Season 11 only became my favorite late-era SPN season after subsequent rewatches, when I could track seeds of the eventual finale planted in the very first episode and watch them unfold over days rather than months. Season 15 is nowhere near as cohesive and still sucks pretty hard, but it benefited from consecutive, uninterrupted viewing all the same. With that said, episode 10 is still a crime against humanity, flagrant in its egregiousness to the fifteen-year legacy of the show. Its central premise still makes no sense, and the following episode is all about damage control that still makes no sense because of the idiotic predecessor it was forced to follow up on. Despite their complete incompetence in every other area because they apparently never earned any of it themselves, Sam and Dean's pool skills are somehow unaffected???? WAT. I noticed that they brought up Dean's death books again in episode 12. They left it open-ended and gave us no answers as to why Billie was "wrong," but if the writers had planned to completely drop that thread they wouldn't have brought it up. Fingers and toes crossed that it's... something. Eventually. And Jack... oh dear, sweet Jack. He really is just an amalgamation of every Chosen One trope ever conceived, isn't he? He's the Crown Prince of Failing Upwards. He gets special quests and shiny items handed to him on a silver platter all because he happened to be born powerful through no merit of his own. The most interesting things about him are his arbitrary divine abilities, whereas his personality is still stuck at Level 1 complexity after three goddamn years on the show. At least he (finally) apologized sincerely for Mary, and for once no one rushed to coddle him and reassure him that it wasn't his fault. He took responsibility, and Cas was even the one to remind him that he killed her. (Though when Cas was gloating about being "right" about Jack like some brainwashed cultist, as if Mary and the other innocents' deaths were acceptable sacrifices to his precious Nougat Boy fulfilling his "destiny," I dearly wanted to smack him). I'm officially sick of all the convoluted magic mumbo-jumbo. I swear, every episode introduces some new spell or concept to conveniently solve all their problems, big and small. I used to prefer the mytharc eps for their higher stakes and larger story, but at least the MOTWs are somewhat grounded in the rules of reality and the conflict doesn't usually get fixed by random magic shit that springs up out of nowhere. They're really laying it on thick with Jack's Super Special Quest to Kill God, and I think (hope) that it's a misdirect. Ideally, it'd be the reverse of the dumpster fire of season 14, when the promising Michael!Dean story that started out the season and gave us some of the best mytharc stuff in years got chucked in the garbage for (apparently) excusable mass murder and torture of innocents perpetuated by Slightly-Beige!Nougat Sue. Guess we'll see in the fall!

But this isn't just about Jack's passive nature as a nephilim, it's also about the fact that this super-special powerful being, by virtue of his age and inexperience, is a gullible moron who has already hurt multiple people and almost brought on (yet another!) apocalypse just because he was told to. Not to mention that, even in utero, he brainwashed both Cas and his mom into protecting him and was indirectly responsible for the former's death and directly responsible for the latter's. He's been surrounded by death and chaos ever since his conception. I think that sweet words are a little lower on the priority list at the moment. Being called names by a grieving and angry man (unintentionally overheard, not even directly to his face), after all that fallout, is getting off easy IMO. But of course, the show then makes the guy who lost his best friend and his mom look like the mean bully for having reservations about this arbitrarily powerful being who has the reasoning skills of a naive child. They intentionally push Dean's actions and words a little too far so that his reasonable emotions are invalidated and seen as excessive, all to make us feel sorrier for poor, cute Jack, the newest writers' pet. Add on a generous serving of Infinite Wisdom Sam lecturing Dean on Doing Feelings Wrong, and it's typical of Dabb-era SPN. Admittedly, I also LOATHE the super-powered baby trope, especially the instant-grown kind. I don't enjoy watching coddled manchildren with unearned, world-breaking powers who also need help tying their shoes or wiping their butt. And because they're babies, the most interesting thing about them is usually their shiny power rather than their personality or motivation. Jack's one character trait is "cute." And having to watch the main characters babysit and tiptoe around a nuke toddler also didn't do much for me.

Ok, so my one comment on this thread got deleted? What the hell?

Personally, I'm not sure that 15.11 is necessarily going to resolve with them finding a Big Shiny that somehow restores their "luck" against the will of God Himself. Maybe the whole "Dumbo never needed the feather to fly" is being reserved for next week. Sam and Dean are definitely going to restore their mojo at some point, the only question is how. But since the writers care squat about the basics of story progression, I'd say maybe a 10% chance of them not shitting the bed in round 2. The canon and story rules right now are looser than the bottomless orifice that Dabb pulls his terrible ideas out of.

It hurts my heart to think that all of Dean's best fights (Bloodlust, First Born, The Prisoner, Funeralia, etc.) have now been retconned to have been divine luck rather than skill and experience. Seriously, FUCK DABB. How. Fucking. Dare. He.

To think that the one time they give me something I want, a cage fight scenario starring the Winchesters, it's in an episode where they've lost all skill and formidability! Cursed luck! I was cautiously reserving my judgement throughout the episode, despite it consistently pissing me the fuck off, because I had a feeling that the final message would be about how it truly was the Winchesters who'd earned their own wins and talents all along, rather than Chuck's meddling. Otherwise, it would have taken a blatant steaming dump on all fourteen years before it. Well, I guess that super-obvious and thematically coherent ending wasn't what it went with. As such, fuck this episode. I don't care enough about Garth to cheer him being the only useful one while the protagonists just bumbled around impotently. I mean, the whole thing about Sam and Dean is that their lives SUCK, yet they pick themselves up and fight back on their own terms every time. Now, we learn that they've been enjoying this cosmic favoritism all along? It couldn't be more disrespectful of previous seasons if it tried. And why the hell did we have the nonsense with Garth naming his twins Sam and Cas? Why leave Dean out so blatantly? Why not name brothers after brothers? There was no follow-up, it just seemed like a petty "fuck you" to the character that had no bearing on the story. Is it funny because, teeheehee, Dean's being put in his place? Again, FUCK YOU. One bright spot? Jensen's tap-dancing. The man truly can do it all, and he's at least been allowed to create his own opportunities and show off his myriad of talents. Hopefully it lands him a good gig far away from this steaming shitpile.

I love that we can have civil back-and-forths here, and even concede to an impasse without any feelings hurt (hopefully!). This discussion has honestly been making my head spin. Does the Jus in Bello scenario compare to the Apocalypse scenario? I actually find myself waffling back and forth on that. Perhaps if Jus in Bello had taken place over a longer period of time with a larger cast, and every passing hour ended up with another person dead, Nancy's sacrifice would have eventually seemed more reasonable as the only possible solution to save whoever was left. There's also the fact that the situation in Jus in Bello was indirectly the Winchesters' fault, in that they were the sole "cause" of the problem, while the Apocalypse had been intricately orchestrated over eons and Dean and Sam were only the essential final pawns in the Great Divine Plan(tm). And there's the pure scale to consider: thousands of people killed by Lucifer vs. the <100 at the station. I think those factors count for something, too. Overall, I think that sacrificing Nancy to save Sam and Dean's (and whoever happened to be with them) skins would have been less sympathetic than Dean letting Michael have his fight and at least, for certain, keeping half the planet alive while smoking the Devil for good. But I'm not sure I could adequately defend that impression if truly pressed on it. 😵

If sacrificing your life/soul for another can't be considered selfless, what CAN????

Not a single "plot pretzel" in Dean's favor has ever compared to the monstrosity of contrived Sam-pimping that was Swan Song. Dean gets the shit beaten out of him for wanting to say yes to Michael and saving half the world, but Sam gets praised and lifted up for wanting to say yes to Lucifer and risking the entire world. Dean says that he needs to "grow up" and let Sam do the same, implying that THAT'S been the problem all along. Sam couldn't even take control back from Meg, yet believes for some reason that he has a chance against Lucifer, and is willing to bank the whole planet on it. No one brings up this extremely obvious point. Sam drinks gallons of demon blood for no clear reason except for a "badass" shot of him killing demons with his mind. No mention of Dean saying yes to Michael and wrestling back control so that he can throw Lucifer into the cage. It's exactly as far-fetched as the original plan, but with a far superior "worst case scenario." And in the unlikely event of success, the only one going into the Cage would be one evil archangel and a rotting meat suit, possibly Michael!Dean as well. No Adam as collateral. Michael, the strongest archangel, happens to get pulled into the Cage like a stumbling toddler, conveniently wrapping up Sam's Big Hero moment, without any additional problems or casualties, in a neat little bow. The ENTIRE POINT of the Impala's long-winded backstory is to ensure that Sam gets his ill-conceived, highly improbable win. Talk about twisting the plot in a character's favor! Dean's consistent instinct for sniffing out people's true intentions/trustworthiness is small potatoes compared to all that. And regardless of how often he wins or he's right, it's not like it usually sticks or counts for anything. Just recently we've had Cas whining about missing Jack and Dean not forgiving him quickly enough, Sam protesting and batting his puppy eyes when Mean, Unreasonable Dean was "forcing" him to help lock up Murderous Nougat Boy. Meanwhile, the hare-brained Cage plan has never been ridiculed or contradicted by anyone. Sam's story in seasons 6 and 7 was all about his noble suffering following that heroic sacrifice. Hell, he was even praising himself for "saving the world" via Fake Bobby in 9.01. Dean killing Eve, Dick Roman, Azazel, on the other hand? Not a single word of acknowledgement or appreciation after the fact. WARNING: BARELY-RELATED TANGENT, NOT DIRECTED SPECIFICALLY AT ANYONE I've mentioned before that, these past few years especially, Sam has suffered from too much Tell and not enough Show, and Dean has suffered from too much Show and not enough Tell. Most of the circular discussions on this thread are rooted in this fundamental disparity. For instance, if someone expresses anger over how Dean is being treated by the writers and the characters in the TEXT, the response would likely concern all the instances that Dean was SHOWN as being in the right. If someone is pissed that Sam is SHOWN to be constantly screwing up, the likely rebuttal would be that the TEXT is praising/validating/whitewashing him. These are two separate lines of argument that will never intersect. IMO, an angle that might be more substantial is the writers' intentions. And to that, I do have a thought: we already know that the majority of them are woefully incompetent, so what is more likely for incompetent writers to do? Purposefully contradict their Tell via their Show for absolutely no reason, OR spell out their agenda in the Tell and not give a shit about whether the Show/canon lines up with it? That's why the writers' treatment of Dean pisses me off so much. No matter how many times he happens to be right or gets a cool scene once in a while, he still consistently gets treated like shit by the writers' mouthpieces. And knowing their ineptitude, I can't bring myself to believe that they're secretly trying to prop Dean up. They've demonstrated time and time again that they don't know what subtlety is. So I know that most of them either dislike Dean themselves or have fallen in line with Dabb's "vision," and that the majority of textual sympathy/praise lies with Cas and Sam, regardless of how they actually come across on-screen. Dean Winchester deserves to be appreciated for the wonderful character he is, and that is not what's happening under Doofus Dabb. They're not doing a stellar job on Sam or Cas either, but at least that's due to pure incompetence rather than a lack of trying. Writers' intentions DO matter; it's the difference between a lucky crumb that doesn't lead anywhere and an important and foreshadowed story. So far in this final season, Dean's gotten nothing but crumbs.

Just seeing that scene transcribed is pissing me off all over again, lol. What. An. Asshole. "I already apologized to you." O...kay? Good for you? You're clearly really broken up about it, huh? You and Dean should automatically be sunshine and rainbows again just because you said, "my bad," right? Let me just reiterate: Cas shielded Murderous Nougat Boy, opposed the Winchesters' attempt to lock him up, heaped all responsibility for his heinous acts onto Duma's barely-there "manipulations," grieved more for Mary's murderer than Mary herself. Dean's big crime, meanwhile, was getting angry over it. That's it. Yet who gets the big, weepy apology conveniently absolving the other of all wrongdoing? Yup... This was scarily like the infamous Fallen Idols.

Even if Cas had properly apologized, which I could see myself agreeing with, that doesn't excuse him acting like Dean owed him forgiveness and basically being a catty little bitch until he finally did. Not to mention how he wouldn't STFU about Jack, the soulless psychopath who murdered Mary (whom he sided with). Cas' attitude has basically been "Will you just get over it, already?" ie. he doesn't actually care about Dean's grievance. If one felt genuine remorse for their actions, they wouldn't be such a snippy asshole to the person they wronged. How can you get angry at someone for not forgiving you quickly enough and not see the ass-backwardness of that? Dean had no obligation to stop being angry, and Cas should have been grown-up enough to let him be (or leave without blaming Dean for "letting him go.")

Oh wow, Cas was predictably insufferable in this ep. I just LOVED how he treated Dean like a dumb, misbehaving child and was always framed in the right. No matter what, he's just a woobie sweetheart bullied incessantly by big mean Dean, whose constant screw-ups are never as bad as whatever unpretty emotion Dean is feeling as a response to those screw-ups. And FUCK him for demanding forgiveness, and apparently giving no fucks about Mary in comparison to her literal murderer. What a petty, self-centered, entitled bitch. But hey, at least all the Destiellers got to cream themselves over what they've always wanted to see: Dean literally on his knees, crying and grovelling to Cas. No matter how good Jensen's acting, it made me want to hurl. Somehow CAS became the wronged party in all this, and he was never forced to grovel like that in regards to Mary and Jack. The rest of it was pretty damn boring. Vampire Winchesters were so fucking cringey, though. Poor Jensen. One bright spot was Dean punching God. Another was Dean "Free Will" Winchester shit-talking him to his face. BOOO! to Jack returning. I can't think of another character I want to see less. His absence had been one of the few positives of this season, and now it won't even have that going for it.

And don't get me started on the tonguebath that every other character slathers on her because she's just the most special little nerd/hacker/sharpshooter/LARPer/street kid genius/sexually-irresistable messiah that ever existed. Calling her the "smartest person in the room"? Having her treat Dorothy's real life like a fairy tale that is "ruining her childhood" because the truth of it is less magical? Treating hunting like a fun little hobby? Fucking gag me. I've long been of the opinion that Charlie is just a bundle of cutesy stereotypes and quirks rather than a real, authentic person. Who the fuck makes a pop culture reference immediately after waking up tied to a chair (a la 8.20?). And she's simultaneously supposed to be both a sassy badass who outshines everyone else AND a self-insert Little Sister character for the brothers to constantly hug and rescue and praise. These two qualities just end up creating this impenetrable barrier of constant coddling and validation for her. I never felt that Oz fit as part of the Supernatural mythology. Too cutesy, cartoony, cheesy, shallow... much like Charlie herself.

That still doesn't explain why the demons are so terrified of her now. Making them miserable through manipulation isn't the same thing. We didn't get any sort of explanation as to what kind of power her naked soul wielded (if any), and we've seen many times that only raw strength gets demons to obey.

I'm not sure how to feel about Rowena, Queen of Hell. It wasn't a surprise, of course, but I'm still not sure how she managed to gain power as nothing but a soul. Can she still do witchcraft without a body? What exactly is she wielding to keep the demons in line, and why is it never explained? It just (once again) minimizes the horror of Hell, to see a destined subject of it somehow avoid eternal torture and become supreme empress offscreen. I guess Dean, Bobby, Kevin, Eileen etc. were just too weak to escape, then? And of course TFW, who've killed legions of demons by now, get utterly, pathetically laid out within two seconds just to make another character look better. It's a little too late to course-correct, writers. If TFW have already proven themselves to be more than capable against demons, then levelling up the latter at the eleventh hour just makes TFW look suddenly, inexplicably incompetent. Every moment of Michael!Adam just made me furious over the absolute butchering of Michael!Dean. I couldn't bring myself to enjoy the performance, which honestly wasn't bad; it's just all too bitter. No mention of Dean's role as Michael's true vessel, of course. Why the fuck would I ever expect that? Lots of blather, minimal action, side characters completely took over, unforgivable "Achilles heel" moment, and the carnage of Michael!Dean got rubbed in my face. Just what I wanted for the midseason finale...