EC Amber

The fertility isn't as value as is the opportunity to control women. That is the real crux here. See, the Fred and all the Commanders can just go and get themselves a brand new shiny convertible when one gets tangled up in the trees, or dangling from a sheet.

Well, I can't say I'm watching as a comparative study with this and the book. But I've seen enough fetish wear to see when things aren't fitting well. And what we saw? Nope. Those outfits were ill fitting, the make up seemed garish to me. If there's a valid complaint, I'd day it was going with fetish wear in the first place. I'd think that would be harder to get than crappy evening wear. Still with that great entrance where June was wearing that dress that just hung on her wrong as she was taking it in, seeing all those dead eyed women...The costume department did well. As an aside, is love to hear more about SJ's mother. What does she think about this world her daughter helped create?

I think it's important to take the TV show independent from the book or people who are avid fans of the book will spend more time being disappointed than enjoying the tv show on its own merits. The book does provide some insights the show hasn't - but I suspect it's because the show is providing and will continue to provide elements that were never addressed by Atwood - either by oversight, intention or the concept simply wasn't current at the time (as an aside this is something that's been on my mind since the show started regarding the contemporaneous definitions of rape and how they clearly shifted over the past 20+ years). In some ways I rather prefer it as I feel like some of the questions I've carried are finally be addressed (mostly about what the hell is going on in the heads of everyone else). I loved the opening and the closing voice overs as it was taken from the book itself as the writing was so sublime that incorporating it was "June's" voice really made this episode so much better. I wish they would do that more - more of June's voice taking the words of the book which captured her mind so well. In the end, I totally agree - the book is remarkable and beautiful and really should be ready by everyone. But don't let it be the thing that hangs up the enjoyment of the show itself. Back to the topic of this episode. I though Moira was wearing ears at the table, which I thought was a subtle callback. Could be wrong... I actually like the costumes in that I didn't think they were really all that flattering to the individuals wearing them. Especially June as it didn't seem to fit her body comfortably. What I thought was probably the best in the astute costuming was the handmaid cape while kissing the woman dressed as a wife while the Commander was (<ahem> forgive the imagery) taking her from behind. Perfect approach - force this deplorable modes of dress on women and then use it to mock the system you helped create. Reminds me of a documentary on priests in Vatican City who were caught on camera performing a Mass and then engaging in a homosexual orgy.

I have to agree! Though I'm also biased from the movie which reinforced this interpretation. Duvall did come across as you describe - weary and in a game made for younger men, but a believer in the path he has taken his country. What this interpretation does is so removed from this - I think my problem is that this version is he is coming off smarter than I think he really is. Commander Pryce and SJ seem to be more likely sources for the thinking that drives this society. Fred is a brutal, psychopathic hedonist.

Given what we've seen of Fred (I"m not calling him "The Commander" or "Waterford" because fuck that guy), we haven't seen anything overtly violent himself. He's definitely sinister, capable of emotional torture and rape. But has he ever hit, punched, stabbed, shot someone? The reason I ask is that the one thing I kept wondering about is how did Offred keep any mask up for him while he raped her without SJ being around or the safety of a ritual. I can't imagine her being able to smile and coo or shout or whatever to his satisfaction. And I can't imagine him not taking that as a huge insult... I went back to dig up Commander Guthrie (the one who was busted sleeping with his Handmaid's... oh, and embezzling) and Commander Pryce - the man who met Nick in the job placement office. We know Guthrie is out of the picture... but Pryce I think may be coming back. He's got the "spirit of the lord" all wrapped up in this. And this might seem weird, but Fred's beard is bugging me. It isn't matching up with all the other clean-cut Christian boys running this show. I'm surprised they let him keep it.

No, it doesn't make sense - but this society wasn't designed with the purpose of furthering the welfare or health of society. Of course they told themselves it did - because that's a great way to rationalize what they actually did. These Commanders are more than willing to keep shooting blanks into rape victims right up until the last flickering light of fertility goes out. Look at politicians and the environment. Now, how much of that is awareness coupled with a psychopathic lack of empathy (Fred) and how much is religious delusion (his wife Serena Joy) is anyone's guess.

Many times over - yes. Thank you for putting this into words. Good or ill, I'd much rather have a coherent and holistic story than one told from a limited perspective. Granted in the book it worked and it worked brilliantly - but for the show this is far more satisfying and insightful. And isn't this really one of the massive underpinnings for a lot of scenarios that go like this? If you want to take over a society you have to either fill the void created by society or create the void to fill with your own agenda. Either way, it's a powerful tool and one that goes unattended. YMMV obviously, but I really think this was leveled as an accusation against her husband for playing outside of the lines they drew. Her justification for all of this is to have a child of her own. To that end, the rest of it (the handmaid structure, the destruction of society that leaves women abject and hopeless) is worth it for her. She is blinded by her own desire to have a child and the religion that is her tool to make it all happen. She just doesn't care about the welfare of anyone, not even herself (I think). And I think you nail it by observing that Fred gets off on being the exception and creating a world where he gets the thrill of having exceptions while everyone else suffers.

I noticed that too. Thought it was odd that there were the perfect number of seats and the perfect entrance with the removal of the "wings" - without regard for half dozen being taken back. I believe these are all the handmaid's for the "Boston" district, minus the "damaged ones" that were selected to attend. No sex unless for procreation, thus saith their lord. If a wife ends up pregnant... well it's speculation, but much joy would be hand, the handmaid would be posted elsewhere and the wife would be expected to have and stay pregnant as much as possible. Since their marriage is legal by Gilean law, the wife would not be forced to become a Handmaid until one or both were found breaking the law. However, she may become an "Ecnowife" (see the book thread for more info as that isn't part of the tv show so far).

The White Plague by Frank Herbert (of Dune fame). A molecular biologist watches his wife and two children killed in a bombing by Irish terrorists. In his mental breakdown he splits into fragment personalities - one of which crafts a plague that attacks only women, but is carried by men. He lets loose the viral plague in England, Ireland and Libya warning the world to send all citizens back to those countries and quarantine them or he will release the virus worldwide. Which happens anyway and set the entire world scrambling to quarantine fertile women and to find some kind of antidote to the virus. I'm not sure if this falls under apocalyptic or dystopian as it starts out in our modern world (set in the 80's I believe) and ends with virtually every woman in the world dead (I believe the M:F::10,000:1). Still it's thought provoking and interesting read.

In the books we're given only small indications to the geographical size, but to that extent the reader isn't given guarantees to what is true or not as we're limited by Offred's POV. The show has been given more and more ideas of what the boundaries are - and that it seems many boundaries are under dispute. Wartime is a rough time to determine where a boundary lies. At the absolute best we know that Boston is entirely under control of Gilead, and I don't think it would be unsafe in assuming that spreads down the mid-Atlantic to at least NC through to the Canadian border.

No, and I doubt most people do. That was my point - it's uncomfortable to see our ugly sides on such bright display as our tv sets. I think a lot of us want to be August Landmesser. We want to be the one strong enough to not be swayed by the masses, to fold our arms and openly defy the regime. But there were so many more around him more than willing to raise their hand in that salute and I think that same concept is at play with Luke and the society of the US as it transitioned into Gilead. When a moment like that comes along I genuinely think *most* people are like Luke - and it's not a slight or insult. We certainly see it with the people of the US pre-Gilead and those after the transition. People were reluctant to act until it was too late. It was easier (relatively) to run than to stay... and there are some elements here that make Luke's behavior even more understandable and more human - the continental US was pocketed and ravaged by war, environmental and medical disasters. I suspect the environmental states of the country made everyone feel trapped. This is our only planet after all and one can't actually leave a contaminated area, you can only move further away. I suppose that is why i don't feel overly compelled to crucify Luke for his latent misogyny and complacency. It's pervasive and widespread. One would have to crucify everyone involved including June (who was also complacent enough that she was unable to escape when she needed to).

Answer is in your question. Commodity. Not autonomous, adult human beings. Objects. Things. And when there is a precious commodity it goes to those in power, those who acquire wealth and power and influence. But this isn't solely about fertility issues. It's about the transition of power from a free society to an oppressive one that finds it's authority in religious precepts. To that end women almost *have* to be oppressed. There isn't much room in a literalist interpretation of the bible for women to be free, autonomous individuals.

I'm reluctant to play purist and wish that the show mirrors the book... I think they were trying to take the quick road to breaking Janine. In the book they emotionally destroyed her into an almost Stockholm Syndrome where she played an active part in diminishing herself. To be honest, I prefer her loosing her eye to the slow and brutal destruction of her mind.

Because privilege isn't limited to white people.

I think this is a pretty normal line of reasoning, but I don't think it's actually true. Atrocities that you and I aren't down with are happening everywhere - and we aren't really doing anything about that. Hell, the people of North Korea are living generations in a world not too dissimilar from what we see in this show (granted they worship a human and not a deity, but the oppression and danger is widespread and severe). People aren't "down" with a lot of the awful things that happen, but that in and of itself isn't sufficient to expend lives and resources to actually make a meaningful change. We'd like to think that someone would save us from ourselves, but frankly? I suspect a good bit of the world wouldn't mind watching us burn a bit. And most would take the same approach we do - do nothing unless it impacts *our* bottom line. No. If all things are otherwise true and the self-reporting of the leadership of Gilead can likely be taken at face value. Given the narrative presented I don't think much would be served by intentionally presenting a far more violent response when there isn't one.

Ben. F-ing Carson. It's odd, just yesterday I was sharing a thought I've long since held since I was a teenager (more than a few decades ago). Namely it's this: general estimates vary wildly, but it's suggested that approx 20 billion humans have walked this planet in our short history. The variety of actions and worldviews is staggering. To that end I cannot conceive of at least one individual of any given demographic not fulfilling some batshit criteria. Intelligent women that hate other women. POC who defend the Confederate Flag Any black American who claims we live in a post-racial society etc etc. I suspect that what we see (at are repulsed by) in Luke is far more widespread than we are comfortable admitting. Perhaps the vitriol is because we see ourselves a little too clearly in him. That's awkward.

Mmm, yes. Interesting read with some salient points. But I think the author, much like some viewers is tripping over their expectations of what racism is supposed to look. A good example: "In a recent Think Progress piece, Miller says: “'When you think about a world where the fertility rate has fallen precipitously [as it has in Gilead], fertility would trump everything. And we’ve seen that: When fertility becomes an issue, racism starts to fall because people adopt kids from Ethiopia and Asian countries and from everywhere.' With all due respect, I wonder if Miller has heard of colonialism?" Not sure how much respect can be attached with a question leveraged like that, but does the author not recognize that that is *precisely* what is happening? Every child there is being "raised white" and every person of color is forced to conform to what is essentially a white society. I wonder if people think that those POC who are conforming to the Gilead society are able to raise their children (whoever they were stolen from) with an appreciation or even understanding of their culture, their heritage or their community? I doubt those characters have any freedom of that sort and to that extent they too as suffering under the very racism that the author is herself (oddly and ironically) a little blind to.

Hasn't been said, but I presume that is where the tobacco products are coming from. What else do you think is in the Black Market?

The only reason I'm willing to give it validity is everything else seems to support it. In every other way things really are as hellish as they appear. The aftereffects of what is presumably the site(s) of a nuclear accident are widespread and felt in at least one other geographical location (Mexico). I would love more details to the extent and specifics of the disasters that brought our characters to the lives they are in.

I'm not sure how much of a true believer either of them are really. After all, Fred breaks some pretty serious rules. I think it's more about power for Fred, and probably always was. I'd have to think about that. For Fred there may be some truth to that. The problem is that all the rules are "serious" at this stage in the game so I don't see him breaking them as a particularly good metric. His reluctance to engage in sexual sin with his wife is where I was coming from, though in reflection that could just be because she lacked appeal for him. Serena however, no, I would say she's a true believer through and through. I don't think she was in it for power. Her insistence for prayer before sex, all of her arguments and rationalizations, her acceptance of her place as stifling as it is - all of that stems through her faith and her warped interpretations.

Good point, I hadn't considered this but it would make for a far more bitter character than the one in the book. It's one thing to get to have all your power and exercise it through your younger years and then sink into angry obscurity... it's quite another to be on a full head of steam and have all of that taken (given) away. That she says "it is what it is" as a meek acceptance of being shut out only feeds an unconscious fire. Could she, or anyone in her position, really forgive themselves for what they did to themselves? We are our own worst critics - do you think Serena has a moment of conscious awareness of the role she played in her own misery? Obviously she cares very little about what her actions have done to the lives of others...

Because he, like Serena, are actually "true believers" - It's not that they are using religious belief to find their way to power, it's that they believe the religion that is the source of these dictates to begin with. It's why he turned her away when she tried to fellate him, it's why they both believed she would be content to make their new house a home. I think it is their belief system that drives them, not necessarily greed for power as is often the case.

The Handmaid's were being briefed about the dinner, ready to enter the hall when Serena entered. She caused a delay with her inspection of the Handmaid's, the brief argument worth Aunt Lydia, and rejection of the Handmaid's. There was the soothing of Jamie and then they entered, late. What caught me is that Serena was thinking of appearances - something the Commander had not considered. She was behind the scenes working to impress and it never even occurred to him that this is a fundamental part of diplomacy. I think he was too busy getting his fragile male ego bruised. He seemed annoyed that the Handmaid's were late, doubly so when Serena abruptly took over welcoming the delegation. And yet both of those actions were likely necessary for Gilead to earn any support. And I don't know that he is aware that he becomes most aroused by Serena when she is acting on her own power.

A bit of insight from "A Woman's Place" - I think the Commander's idea about love stems from seeing his wife diminish in his eyes. Sure, he loves how she submits to him - but he loves that in all women. What got him excited (and we saw it twice) was when she exercised a semblance of power, when she used that sharp mind of hers to propel the growing leadership that would be the leaders of Gilead and again when she created a powerful bit of show for the Ambassador. I suspect he genuinely loves her, but ironically only when she is being what both claim they don't want for women.

General and random thoughts in no particular order: I didn't have a problem with the episode or the premise behind it. Desperation does really funny things with people's ability to reason. It doesn't even require religious delusion - just look at the insanity of today's current policies regarding the environment. Given that, I can imagine most countries or localities will fracture their own cultural mores to survive. I didn't think the Ambassador represented all of Mexico - having her give us a relative size (Boston) made a lot more sense. She doesn't need enough Handmaid's for the entire country - just enough for a place the size of Boston. Speaking of the Ambassador - she seemed too ready to accept the happy facade presented by Gilead and the Commanders. That was my first red flag that she wasn't there for "amnesty" reasons. She seemed willing to ignore body language and tonality to accept the words spoken. There was no moment more cruel, more painful, more torturous than that moment of hell the Handmaid's endured seeing those children. I fully expected one of them to faint, openly sob, crack in some fashion. The emotional fortitude of those women is astounding. We never did see what Offred did, if anything, once handed the paper and pen. The opening of next week could be her handing it over and shaking with fear. We could see her write something... until then it's Schrodingers Cat for me. Personally I think she will/does write something and that the Ambassador's assistant is in fact a "good" person. He had no reason to risk exposure if he was anything else by seeking out more damning information after Offred told the truth about their lives in Gilead. The entire advancement of the plot regarding the Handmaid's and international relations with Gilead was overshadowed by the insights we got for Serena and Fred. There were a couple of things that I got out of that - I think she was the strong motivating force behind his position and rise in the Gilead leadership. When the call came that their terrorist plot went through it was Serena comforting and encouraging him. She was his source of rationalizations and justifications. I genuinely don't know that he would have ever accomplished so much without having her by his side (until he put her behind him). He showed concern for what she was going to do with herself until she confirmed her role "to make this place a home." But once she lost that vigor and vim he lost his attraction. Notice how they have remained celibate until the night she spoke up, breaking the norms and reminding her what he finds so wonderful - her poise, her ability to control the room, to be a showman and ultimately help him accomplish his own goals. THEN he finds himself willing to have sex with her.