EC Amber

Ho. Ly. Shit you are right about that. SJ's debasement, just abandoned to that prayer and desperation. Flawless delivery.

Agree. In this, as she does in her matrimonial bed, SJ was the rapist. Something about this scene was bugging me and you clued me in on what. The in take officer. Yes, he was warm and gracious and as helpful as he could be. But we're years into this - too many women who ran and survived would be seeking out positions of support for Handmaids who escaped. They would be driven to the work to help them process and provide a better reception, better sensitivity. There would be a network already growing (and perhaps gaining international traction?)... pure speculation. But it just seemed a little off.

Wow... So much to unpack. What, to me, is the thing that stands out to me, that I found most compelling, the thing I looked forward to the most: Samira Wiley and her job playing Moira. Less to the writers who did a lot of hand waving in telling her tale. We got a Luke episode, I would have enjoyed a Moira episode. We'll never see it because it has no point in moving the story, but I have a desire to see how much Moira tells him about June. The nightmare existence they both endured. How can you possibly convey that? I want Moira to meet up with the mute refugee. Serena, you truly are an evil c***. The utter depravity of what she did, the callousness of it. How on earth can you do that to another woman and then have the audacity to tell her to not get upset? I want to see her comeuppance and perhaps we will next season... but that ever yawning abyss that is her life: good. Totally brutal of me, but strong schadenfreude to see SJ and Fred, him trying to reconcile and her just grasping at the hope of June's baby - having it so close within their grasp and to have it just disintegrate in their hands. They deserved none of it. I loved, loved, loved the scene with Luke and Moira. So the big punishment for Commanders that rape their handmaids outside of the martial bed is getting their hand cut off? Unbelievable. Did he lose his position too? His status? But my favorite is the all powerful Commander that we've seen a few times - Commander Pryce. The zealot, the one who believes with all his heart. The one who would want to see Jezebel's razed to the ground, who never showed his face in there. Notice the smirking at the table? Some of those people saw Cmmd Putnam at Jezebel's. Janine continues to break my heart. "Not too hard." I was expecting June to tell her the passage about throwing the first stone. Nice call back to the lesson of how to apologize to Aunt Lydia. Nice to see them stand up for one another, but I'm curious what the consequences will be for all of them? When June was laying there in a sea of other women's words... it was the first time I was genuinely angry at her. She can play it fast and lose with what few choices she has about her life. But her unraveling them all, lying there absorbing them she was essentially silencing them. It was so deeply selfish and thoughtless. What she could have undone if they are found... ...which they were! Now, some thoughts about Rita. We know that Offred was with SJ and Fred for at least four months. In the beginning she was cold and almost hostile towards June. And we saw how distraught and hurt she was when the first Offred killed herself. But I remember the first time she cracked with real warmth toward June - when June was in the bath and was told that SJ wanted to see her "Awesome." And Rita smiled, then chuckled. At the end I think there was a growing sense of fondness one for the other. I'm looking forward to the next season, seeing this world expanded and hopefully seeing more from the other Handmaid's. Not sure how they'll do it, but I've enjoyed this season so I'll trust them on the next one. Just turn up the damn lights.

Were we? I thought the lingering was the clue to the audience that this guy is Mayday. I'd love to pull The Other Side and get a side by side comparison.

The whole milk controversy is odd to me. In Virginia there are a few local dairies and they all seem to have similar color label systems. Red for whole milk, dark blue for 2% and light blue for skim. Much like @secnarf... to be honest, I kind of assumed it was like this everywhere. As an interesting side note, this was the same system for milk in South Korea, at least in the 90's.

I was thinking that too. My question came from the idea of a wife cheating creates a vulnerability. If the husband is tired of her or whatever, he can just have her outed... but because she is fertile she wouldn't hang, she'd just get reclassified.

Expanding this to wives and this is pure speculation - but let's say that a wife gets pregnant and not from her husband... does the husband keep the baby and she becomes a handmaid?

Actually... it seems like they enjoy variety.

I believe she thinks it is Fred. Sure she's doubling down by getting Nick, but if Fred's fertility were 100% not in question then she wouldn't bother opening up the pool.

This is a bit tricky, but here's my take: she's a true believer to the core. There is no way she'll break the vows of matrimony and I think she genuinely loves her husband. Like a lot of believers she's ok breaking the little rules but wouldn't break the big rules. I think her devotion to her faith is stronger than her desire to have a child. Not by much, but enough.

This struck me the other night as well... that for all the talk about children are miracles and blessed and treasured - they are likely every bit a commodity than anything else. Seems like they are wanted because they are scarce, not because they are actually treasured.

No, but it's citizens are. Take North Korea as a real-life example of the people policing each other. Neighbors look to make sure the other family is wearing their "dear leader" pin, that the pictures of the triad is prominently displayed in the main living area, that they are spies and being spied upon.

Nothing to really add except noting that I both clapped, then raised my glass. Feminism without inclusion isn't actually feminism.

Total fanwank here, but this really seems like the only plausible explanation. The teachers follow the students. One Aunt per graduating class. And so Aunt Lydia went through the Red Center with her class - and now she manages them, much like an agent, or an okā-san or a pimp. Mostly the latter. This is literally the only way she can perform as many functions as she does. There is no chance she is also at the Red Center still teaching and mutilating. Plus it's the only way to get the character screen time without flashabacks (which I kind of think we may be done with as far as the Red Center is concerned).

Finally got to sit and watch (gotta plan the uninterrupted time to take it in)... and wow. Another really gripping episode. Random thoughts in no particular order. Like others SJ hit a sympathy nerve for me. Full disclosure I tend to sympathize with her a bit more than I think others do - we have similar feelings about being childless.... so to that end that longing and envy and pain when she watched that poor infant be manhandled resonated. Aside of that I just felt bad for that poor kid. That's gotta be uncomfortable being tossed around like that. I feel like we've been watching the agonizingly slow unraveling of a woman's mind with Janine. In a way her story has been far more painful for me to watch. (as an aside, brilliant article this week on this episode. Love the insights on Janine). I found the escape of Moira to be far more plausible than however she managed to get that package from the bartender to the butcher. At least there was a line of events to get us from Moira being in the bathroom to the van. Implausible, but from point A to point C made sense. How in the hell did she manage to get that package out of Jezebel's, out of the city, into the hands of the right All Flesh (assuming there are multiple)? Putnam's wife was far more chilling than her husband. Her friendliness and warmth was just honey on the trap. "Just lie quietly dear while I smile adoringly at my husband as he rapes you." I kind of wanted to hit her. As another poster points out it's so much worse than SJ who is at least repulsed and looks away. If Moira didn't have time to wash her hands of the blood, I'm ok with her not having time to wash the make up off her face. But what an amazing actress. That scene of her taking inventory in front of the mirror... that wonderfully delivered "Just a minute sugar..." hit the perfect note. Anyone notice that not only did they heavily edit the bible, but have added extensively? That bullshit ceremony to hand over her child, the forced curtsey to "Ofwarren"... somehow that felt worse than the rapes. Handing over your own child to the couple that took part in months of rape and abuse.... June is right - how the hell are they sane? Speaking of June and Janine on the bridge - just my own feeling, but I got a strong "you do you" vibe from June. I don't think she had any intention of stopping Janine from jumping. If anything it was 1) save Charolette and 2) say goodbye. Oh yeah, Rita's son fought for her and not Gilead. He'd be broken hearted to see his mother where she is. But proud I think. The woman isn't stupid. I think her coldness towards June was based on not getting attached like she did with the first Offred. She seemed so distraught when they found her dead... and she seems to have been slowly warming up to her... yet another fascinating Martha I would love to learn more about. I get that with an actress like Madeline Brewer and a character like Janine - it's hard to let them go. To let that story be done. Still, I think it was a misstep keeping her around.

:-) Symbolically I like it. As a setting it does require suspending a lot of disbelief. Something like this would be spawned in the midwest - bible belt. At least that would be a more reasonable location in terms of this coming about. Thing is, I feel like it would need to be near water. This kind of thing would need more mobility than a landlocked state. Atlanta perhaps? Oh Absolutely! I don't see them being particularly open to anything related to mental illness. Too much drain on valuable resources and no interest in rehabilitating people from almost anything.... unless it is a fertile woman. I see them maiming her, risking DT's, mutilating her... right up until that monkey was off her back and she was on hers for a Commander.

Setting aside for the moment the approach of metering out knowledge to the viewer - this comment resonates with me. While this series can serve as a useful harbinger of what is possibly on the horizon, I think it might be even more beneficial by helping us see these sides in ourselves to better eradicate tendencies and latent ideas. As to approach... great arguments for and against the POV and presentation of information. I can certainly see the appeal of maintaining the integrity of the original story by keeping Offred/June's voice "pure." For me the only meaningful reason to expand the POV to include that of the men in this story is almost to assure the viewer that the narrator isn't unreliable - only because we lose are narrator for the voice of the third person (and ultimately the interpretation of the viewer).

According to an interview she gave to the New York Times, Atwood made this choice because of the region's Puritan background and history of intolerance: "You often hear in North America, "It can't happen here," but it happened quite early on. The Puritans banished people who didn't agree with them, so we would be rather smug to assume that the seeds are not there. That's why I set the book in Cambridge." Well, consider this: 1) the immense desperation of anyone suffering under the burden of addiction. Mere survival can be an overwhelming challenge. The imaginings of freedom from addiction seems impossible. The depths of depravity are considered just to keep that addiction from making it seem like you were dying (like getting fucked behind a dumpster for some oxy and a happy meal). It is easy to underestimate just how powerful addiction can be in taking all dignity and grace from the individual. 2) It's been at least three years, probably longer since the advent of the Red Center. To have a lingering addiction one must have some proximity to the things that they were addicted to. Handmaid's are so isolated I doubt there would be any reasonable chance to get ones hands on virtually any drug. 3) Happy? See the freedom from #1 - Happiness gets redefined when one survives addiction. Happiness can mean shelter, food and a semblance of safety (compared to the dangers of living on the street in a drug-induced haze). 4) Well spoken? Why wouldn't she be well-spoken? Consider that a good part of her conversations are regurgitations of lines given by Aunt Lydia - "with I receive with joy." Absorb that for three years and I think anyone can develop skills to speak clearly and well.

And Dexter :-)

Sure - she could. But she didn't. She told this story where the religious mindset is fundamental to the cohesive whole of the story. So it would completely make sense why it seems absurd when you discount a fundamental element to the entire story. To be perfectly frank, I'm very skeptical that a scenario could play out where religion wouldn't be a powerful leverage for controlling large groups. A fertility crisis of this magnitude would incite a great amount of fear - and that is just a breeding ground for irrational ideas. I just don't think humanity is at a place where we could survive something like this without large segments regressing. Hell, we haven't been able to *stop* doing this as a whole globally - ever. And the story we are seeing - all the hypocrisy, the fabrications being built, the violence - the virgin and the whore - they exist now, so why would that disappear in the face of pandemic infertility? That would have been a great way to approach that. Or if the flashbacks we see are simply expressions of her imagination? Her interpretations of events based on the clues she finds? By telling this story in 3rd person on screen (though 1st person is really hard to pull off well), she stops being the unreliable source of information.

Really? For me, the premise includes religion, which by nature makes the rational irrational. Without religion I think you'd have a point. But this is a theocracy, the drive isn't too better or protect humanity. It's almost entirely about masculine derived control.

I may be wrong, but I think that was a flash-back after the banquet??? Mmm, you may be right, but I'm pretty sure if was directly after the banquet. Fred came in, complimented her (ostentatiously because she reminded him of who she used to be)... and ended up with her on top (which I thought was a pretty nice touch given the dynamics).

If I remember correctly they did the night of the banquet.

Since they were deleted... anyone have any thoughts about SJ's mother and the Martha downstairs with Nick? Adding: SJ mother, for some reason, seems fascinating. Mostly because this is an entirely new element. is she like her daughter? Was she protected from the colonies because of her relationship as MIL to Fred? Is she sick over what is going on? Is she bitter and gleeful? What *IS* her status? So. Many. Questions. And the Martha downstairs... what got me was there are clearly "Aunt" like figures (from the "dorm"). The patterns are all the same. Older women to enforce the rule over the younger women who are held there against their will. And having Martha's makes sense... who else would serve the Commanders when they want to be the sick perverts they are? In writing this though it dawns on me: she was an award winning chef. That's why she is downstairs - pretty and happy with more freedom than most. As soon as she burns the soup though, or forgets what side her toast is buttered... she'll be upstairs on her back.

Since they were deleted... anyone have any thoughts about SJ's mother and the Martha downstairs with Nick?