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The other problem I have is everyone talks about Sam being a follower. Well this season he definitely wasn't. He came up with the plans and he killed the monsters. If you really watch, Sam hasn't been just a follower for a long time. Dean regularly wants to do things one way but acquiesces when Sam wants to do another. It happens regularly. Two that pop into my head quickly are the hospital when Dean wanted to fight his way out and the health spa where Dean wanted to kill the owner lady. Most of the time he doesn't even argue. It's just an ok what do you want to do. I agree with this. This is how I think and feel too.

Jared's on Twitter regarding AKF but nothing on Mark. Interesting.

Yes. I think that was a big part of Sam's problem with Benny.

+a zillion

I couldn't see that in his behaviour at all. All I see is jealousy which is confirmed in the episode where Dean is under the influence of the cursed coin.

This!

I guess it's because the showrunners constantly talk about Sam this and Sam that even when asked something about Dean. Plus they gave us vallium Dean this season. And even Jensen said the story (series total) focuses on Sam.

+Two dozen

This. Teflon Sam got old real fast. Unfortunately, that is the impression the writing gave me too.

Dean is a competent Hunter that was left chained, unconscious and without weapons to a radiator.

This. It can easily be argued that Sam is the favored character and yet the writers unintentionally have him do things that causes him to be unsympathetic (at best) to a number of the fans. It all goes back to writers and showrunners who don't have a clue how people not sitting in the writers room will react to what they put on the screen.

Yes and did he abandoned Sam and leave him in imminent danger without a word? Not as far as I recall.

Actually, it's kind of sad that Dean knew his brother well enough to know that Sam would abandon him without a word or thought for his (Dean's)safety and run to Amelia . If Sam really thought someone Dean considered a friend was dangerous to Dean and others but takes off anyway, it doesn't make Sam look good. And that isn't even taking into account he abandoned a mentally unstable Hunter literally in the middle of a hunt. That pretty much sums it up nicely.

Ditto

Actually, the thing Carver was excited about was the Sam/Amelia storyline. That's all he could talk about most of the time. I think it's Dean's sl that they came up with while trying to figure out a way to get rid of Dean for a year so the Sam/Amelia relationship could develop. However, purgatory was a hit and Sam/Amelia was a flop. They should have easily seen that result coming IMO.

IMO, there is no way that what Jensen said can be interpreted as HIM throwing shade. I just think some of us analyzed what was inadvertently revealed and found it stunning how clueless the writers often are. Me too.

I thought when fans griped about the Dean in purgatory sl disappearing so fast that Singer said they had to cut it short because the VFX was too expensive. I know splitting up the brothers is supposed to be a problem but there was no effort to write a solution that would have extended purgatory. Instead, we got Sam/Amelia. I pretty much agree.

On a different topic, the Dean storyline of Purgatory was cut way short. The major reason they GAVE was the extra cost for the special effects although I have my doubts that was it. There is arguably less money for special effects now with higher J2 salaries and other regulars in the cast. Season 13 has an alt universe that is very heavy on special effects and is not a Dean storyline. Do you think it will get cut short too?

Yes! And I also agree the Twitter tantrums now don't help.

I am an older woman who also isn't that concerned with either actors looks. I have raised three boys myself who are now fine adults (daughter too) and I have to admit that from season 1 episode 1, Sam came across to me as a spoiled know it all who thought he was better than his brother. Part of that was the writing and part of it was how JP delivered the lines. I can't help my initial reaction. That first impression softens and then the writers do another Sam thinks he knows better than Dean but he's actually wrong. It doesn't help that Jensen is such an amazing actor and IMO, has been better at selling his character as sympathetic since day one. I just wish the writers would grow Sam up and LET HIM STAY THERE.

I never noticed that. Makes you think. Thanks for posting.

I understand what your saying. The writing often makes it very hard to empathize with Sam and that's never a good thing IMO. As far as all the subtleties to the plots everyone is coming up with, IMO you are giving the writers to much credit. They appear to me to only know how to do the in your face style of writing. I still don't think they are intentionally trying to do such damage to Sam's character. There is no way they are doing that intentionally to Jared so that leaves me with unintentional.

Mark has never been part of the trio (J2M) and has always seemed a bit of an outsider to me but I never saw any bad blood between them. Just not quite the same depth of friendship.

I see your point. I just think they were giving Sam flaws he needed to overcome to be the hero in the end. But their execution was awful and Sam was never really shown overcoming his flaws. I think the writers thought the hero moments would out weigh the other stuff and it didn't work out quite like they expected. I hope that makes sense and of course it is just my opinion. I just don't think the writers read fans correctly. Hand waving faults away does not a hero make.

Pretty much anything right now is speculation except he's leaving.