Idahoforspn

What makes us believe Amara even knew anything about Mary and Dean's past? She was locked away for all that and didn't know what a cheeseburger was, let alone Dean's history with his mother. Crowley had to teach her world history. Nobody taught her Dean history that we ever saw. All the show really gave us on why it was Mom ,IMO, was the photo Amara found in the bunker. That photo was of a loving Mom and her little boy. Knowing nothing of Dean's history, I can see her wanting to give Dean someone who would LOVE him unconditionally. That's what Amara and Chuck finally realized too. They loved each other (which was a little uncomfortable but that's just me). The photo and the generic concept of a Mother's love was enough for Amara to think that's what Dean needed. I have always felt since Amara said she was going to give Dean what he needed was that it was someone to love him. Forgiveness never even occurred to me all season long and the fact that Mary was so distant broke my heart because I thought Amara intended Mary to love Dean. If the "forgiveness" was intended from the beginning, the show didn't do a very good job of developing the concept for me. But I recognize there is more than one way to see it. I just wanted to articulate some additional thoughts I had.

I'm really hoping they have talked to Mark personally and aren't doing anything on Twitter because of the firestorm following Jim Micheal tweet. No matter what they say, the fandom will erupt again so maybe better to say nothing on social media. We may hear something at the next con.

That's fair. I can agree there.

That would make sense IF they had brought in a new showrunner from the outside. Dabb worked with Carver and should have a decent picture of whatever storyline they had. Yes, it is possible. Listening to interviews and then listening to Jensen, I just don't think they were interested enough in the Dean/Mary storyline to have really planned it that well from the beginning. I think they planned Deans story would be how he dealt with his Mom being back. That's what they said in the early interviews when it was actually mentioned. IMO, having it down to Dean needed to forgive his Mom was a lot deeper and more specific than they had developed the storyline. IMO, they only had a simple Dean has to figure out his relationship with Mom which is how they presented it preseason.

The PTB have told us many times that they often write a finally with no real idea how they are going to handle it the next season. It is more than reasonable, it is probable they had no idea where they were going with that statement. They didn't have a clue, by their own admission, and never really figured out where they were going with the Dean/Amara storyline either.

You can pre-order it on Amazon right now.

Maybe Dabb thinks he can mirror the "other" Lucifers success on SPN. Maybe he thinks he can spin off something with him. Please tell me this is just my wild imagination. I am much more than just tired of our Lucifer.

I'm this way too. It's one of the big fails of the writers. They don't seem to have a clue how to redeem a character. The best effort I have seen in a while was Mick. They at least developed it over a couple of episodes.

The showrunner should be making sure the scripts/ writers are integrated. I actual blame most of the writing problems on the showrunners.

Have to admit I only watched part of Jared's. I don't know if this happened in Jared's solo but in Jensen's, one of the questions was about how Sam felt about something.

The whole thing reminds me of the disconnect between episodes by different writers on how a soulless Sam would act. There was no consistency between writers. Seems like the showrunner even admitted that but my memory may be wrong there. It has been obvious a number of times that there is to little coordination between writers. That's the showrunners fault in my opinion.

And I think that's a pretty fair assessment of the writing problems.

Exactly.

And that has nothing to do with not listening to Dean which was what I was commenting about. Sam went in as THE LEADER of a bunch of hunters HE RECRUITED with his big speech. And IMO Jodi shot Hess because they didn't want Sam killing a human female which IMO is the same reason they had Ketch kill Toni.

But Sam got to be the one to take them out beginning with the big hero speech. What good is it for Dean to be right when Sam gets to end the arc as the hero all alone. When didn't Sam listen to Dean. It was Lady Dead Now that didn't like the plan. Sam was never shown doubting Dean's plan. I'll give you that one. Dean doesn't give up when it comes to family. Hell fix it or die trying.

Ok. I'll go with that!!

I hope your right and I'm wrong.. I was just going by what I have seen this season which leads me to believe alt universe is more a Cas, Mary, Nephilim, or even Luci storyline rather than Dean (or even Sam).

And what makes you assume Jensen didn't want to know or didn't ask earlier? We found out quite a bit later that Jensen asked where the Dean/Amara storyline was going because he didn't understand what he was supposed to be portraying. That what you or I think Jensen should want to know or not want to know is in anyway indicative of what Jensen actually thinks is dreaming.

Ditto

Because the writers didn't realize that all the rest would not go away when Sam was given the huge hero moment culminating the arc. They thought , IMO, that the one big self sacrificing act would negate in the viewers mind anything Sam did in the past. We are back to the writers really don't understand that the viewers often interpet things differently than they intend us to.

And why would it have been insulting to let an actor know where they are taking his character's story so the actor can plan how best to "sell it" consistently in his scenes throughout the season?

You didn't mention though how the writers decided to have Dean torture souls in hell for ten years if they were trying to make Dean look better than Sam. And yes, they had Sam do some awful unsympathetic things but then to end the arc they let Sam save the whole dang world ALL BY HIMSELF. Doesn't look to me like the writers intended Dean to have the redemptive arc and be the big hero. See above. Sam got to save the whole world all by himself in spite of his past mistakes. That's called a flawed hero. And that wasn't a character sacrificed for Dean. You say yourself it was Sam AND Dean. The showrunner didn't realize he would get that kind of backlash for the Sam didn't look for Dean. He thought it was a good thing and by the time they reached the point in filming he could actually address it, I think he chose to just ignore it. Its seasons later we get Sam apologizing and I think that's because the backlash just wouldn't go away.

Yes I am a Dean fan. However, I am not happy about the atrocious writing for Sam either. My dream scripts, even as a confessed Dean girl, would involve TWO badass hero hunters that we didn't have to argue which one the writers are screwing the worst.

Ruby told him before Lucifer rose that he never needed the blood. So I was very unhappy that now Sam apparently needed to drink gallons of it from demon possessed bodies. And also, if they did the moral thing and got the blood from a meatsuit that was already dead as opposed to one living and just possessed, would there even be blood still running through the veins. If the demons could keep the heart pumping and blood running, why did the meatsuits even die?Inquiring minds want to know.

I saw a TON of it. However, most of it came from super fans who would never see anything Sam did as wrong. The mental gymnastics it took to put a 100% true on that speech were worthy of the Olympics IMO.