Wayward Son

If it makes you feel better I feel the same way! Season eleven is my favourite post Kripke era season, and while I have some issues with the current season I would still take it over the monstrosities that were seasons 8 and 9.

Good point! While his methods were deplorable (and you won't find me arguing otherwise) there was never any malicious intent meant against Sam and Dean. While I wish he'd just asked for the Colt I can understand why he didn't. There was no way they'd leave him to face a threat like Dagon without them and Cas wished to protect them from having to involve themselves in the dirty act of destroying the nephilim. Castiel motives were about protecting both the brothers and the world at large! He also knew they were likely to take his actions as a betrayal, which was a sacrifice he was willing to take if it kept them safe. That is why IMO the apology was genuine and not just a way of playing Dean. Although he felt his actions were justified he regretted the emotional stress it would cause the brothers. And like I said in previous posts, the brothers have been in the same position themselves too many times to not realise where Cas was coming from. I'm sure they'll give him hell for what he did, but ultimately they're family and love each other.

I get what you're saying and I agree Castiel's actions here were awful, but I also feel if we follow that logic Sam and Dean shouldn't trust each other either. They have both done stuff to each other the person has perceived as a betrayal to one another. I think as @SueB said they are self aware enough to realise they have displayed similar issues when in a similar situation in the past. I think we have to remember that all three of them can be very, very stubborn and if they feel the occasion calls for it adopters of the "my way or the highway" approach. Plus, they live in a very high stakes world where the fate of the world is quite literally in their hands. It makes sense that when they feel they have that weight on their shoulders all of them have at one point or another taken actions the others won't like. Yeah it really sucks how the writers had to add that ambiguity and sourness to what would have been a wonderful scene if left alone. Although I can somewhat understand where Cas is coming from I really hate what they had him do this episode. In fact I now just want them to write him out because I'm sick of the writing team pulling this crap *sigh*

Wonderfully put @SueB! As Bobby would say "family don't end in blood" on this show and Castiel is now considered family to those boys! There are going to be ups and downs. They are going to do stuff to each other the other won't like, but ultimately by this point it is never out of malice for any of them! They just live very high stake lives where the fate of the world is literally in their hands! And with such high stakes in hand all of them may occasionally feel the need to take actions that the others won't like for the good of the others and the world at large.

Well I hated what they did with Castiel here here as my posts in "bitch vs jerk" can attest, but then the thing is throughout the course of the show the brothers have also taken actions against each other that can be perceived as a betrayal. When's the point Sam and Dean should stop trusting each other? In regards to the sandbox scene there were definitely better ways Castiel could have handled it! Personally, I feel if he really had to knock them out he should have driven them to the bunker or somewhere safer for instance. However, I can see why Cas may have felt he had no choice in the matter. Whatever vision he saw convinced him it was paramount the baby needed to be born with all his powers intact. However, Sam and Dean had adapted a "it's our way or the highway" approach. They had made it clear that they were never going to be willing to compromise and let him and Kelly go because they were convinced (rightly or wrongly we have yet to see) Castiel was possessed or heavily influenced by the baby. Therefore, from Cas' perspective since it was essential he protect the child from Sam and Deans plan his options were knocking them out as he did so he and Kelly could leave unhindered, or an all out brawl. Obviously he cares about the brothers and doesn't want to cause them the extensive damage he'd have likely needed to inflict in a brawl so he went for the easier option.

Yeah I can totally understand why you'd feel that way. There's definitely an ambiguity to the whole thing! The main reason I feel the apology was most likely genuine was due to his words to Kelly later in the episode namely "I am not someone you should place your faith in... I have just betrayed my friends, my family". In my opinion this reveals to us the audience Castiel is torn. On the one hand, he feels he is doing the right thing in terms of strategics. Cas feels he was right to work with heaven and keep the brothers out of it! There is a clear tactical divide between them. On the other hand, I don't think he has deluded himself in regards to the negative impact this is going to have on the brothers at an emotional level. He is well aware that although his intentions are pure the brothers aren't going to be happy with his actions. And that is why I feel throughout the episode he does try to offer apologies and explanation for his actions rather than adapting a "you're being a drama queen get over it" stance. And it is this seeming understanding that makes me think the apology and return of the mix tape was genuine. Of course I can totally understand why others might view the situation differently, and I'm not trying to force anyone into sharing my viewpoint :)

Taken from the Dean thread In regards to Dean being put down for displaying his feelings. While I can see the point people are making about Sam and Mary I personally do not feel it applies to Castiel. I have been considering the times Dean and Castiel have argued this season and Dean has displayed negative feelings towards the Angel. In my opinion Castiel (and the narrative of their arguments) has never tried to belittle Dean's right to feel what he feels, not even in the most recent episode. I can't think of anything comparable to Sam's exasperated "Dean", or Mary's "I'm not just a mother" counter argument. The closest thing I could think of was their bickering in Lily Sunders Has No Regrets, but that was a mutual snark fest IMO. And even then once Dean spoke to him without the snark Castiel proceeded to accept and validate Dean's right to feel worried. Yes, Castiel does not "back down" from the argument. He maintains his viewpoint that taking on the personal risks that came with killing Billie was the right thing to do, but he also stated "I understand" about Dean's worries. So ultimately even though they still disagree he still acknowledges Dean's right to feel concerned. Cas does not try to dismiss Dean as hysterical or whatever. Even in this weeks episode he apologised for adding to Dean's worry. IMO the whole scene wasn't just him playing Dean. I think he genuinely wanted to return the tape (due to the guilt he felt making him feel he didn't deserve such a personal gift) and I think his apology was real. While I don't condone what Castiel did IMO his actions were driven first by wanting a win and later to protect the future he saw. I don't think there was any eye rolling about Dean's emotions from Cas' viewpoint So overall I am not saying those who feel Cas has belittled Dean's right to expression his emotions are wrong, but I just personally don't feel Castiel has reacted negatively to Dean's display of feelings. In my opinions their points of disagreement this year have been related to tactical issues i.e was it right to kill Billie? Should they extract the Baby's grace or take it to heaven? Should the baby be born powered or no? I don't think we've ever had any dismissive moments of " - eye roll- Dean's anger / worry Is so ridiculous" from Castiel.

I am taking my reply to the relationships thread because my reply is focused on the Dean / Cas dynamic this year rather than specifically Dean.

I assume from the inclusion of the likes of Robb Benedict these awards are being awarded for things related to season eleven? If that's the case, then I'm not as surprised by the writing win. From what I could tell eleven was a rather popular season within fandom. Of course not everyone liked it (but then what does everyone in this fandom love?) but I got the impression it was well received overall. Of course I could just be biased because season 11 is my favourite season since the Kripke era ended haha

I think the shows biggest problem in regards to evolving is the audience and the financial side of things. Unlike the X Files, which was a major hit in its heyday, this show can not afford to take a course of action that would risk alienating a portion of the audience to the point they'd stop watching. Although, I do not believe this to be the case with every fan, there is definitely a faction of the fandom that would react violently to the merest suggestion that they were considering evolving the show into a true ensemble. It wouldn't matter whether said evolution involved promoting some of the current regulars (Misha, Mark P and Mark S) to a full time cast member (i.e. starring in every episode or near enough) or introducing a brand new character / actor(ess) as their new co star. There is a faction of the audience who would either stop watching the moment such a change was announced, or they'd display hatred for the actor and said character on principle. It wouldn't matter if the character was the most compelling and interesting one the show has ever had outside of Sam and Dean they'd still hate them for daring to exist as a co-star. In fact Misha and Mark (especially Misha) are already the victims of said fans for daring to 'overshadow' the brothers by appearing in half the episodes of a season. In addition to this, I don't think the show could afford to evolve further into an ensemble. Between them Jared and Jensen are very expensive for a CW actor, they are said to earn $175,000 per episode which is more than three times the amount actors from other CW show drama such as Stephen Amell earn ($50,000). Especially now that the ratings are beginning to decline I couldn't see the CW being willing to invest the money required to introduce further full time leads not even if said lead was willing to start at the $30,000- 35,000 wage the stars of most freshman shows on the network earn.

But he has expressed his anger towards Mary for her abandonment of them at the beginning of The Raid. The fact that he later took back parts of what he said doesn't negate the fact that he actually said it. However, you will be pleased to hear, that in addition to that scene there have been spoilers released which indicate that Dean will get to confront her about her actions in particular the deal she made with Azazel.

I am taking my reply to this back to the spoilers and speculation thread.

I just want to be clear that I'm in no way trying to deny Dean's right to feel angry and betrayed by the ones he loves, but my question is; has Dean really been suppressing those feelings? Off the top of my head, during this weeks episode he was pretty upfront with Castiel about the anger and worry his disappearing act caused, and he showed a similar level of anger later in the episode when they find him after he found the Colt. Earlier in the season, during Lily Sunders Has No Regrets, he has no issues with expressing his anger and worry over Castiel's decision to kill Billie. In addition to this, Dean also had no issues with telling Sam that he needed to pick a side during The Raid. Then there was his speech to Mary during the same episode. I am not trying to deny Dean's right to feel the way he feels. I'm just pointing that IMO he has expressed said feelings especially towards Castiel.

Well I'm not going to argue with that ;). I was just saying I don't think throwing the key on the front seat was intended as an encouragement for them to flee on Cas' part. However, you're right he did go on to facilitate Kelly stealing the impala.

I honestly don't think Castiel expected her to do what she did! I didn't see the throwing the keys on the front seat for Dean to get when he comes as a big deal, but then again I've done the same thing numerous times when I've went out to the car with my sister while my mum puts the alarm etc on before we leave.

I'm not saying he doesn't look good for his age and I'm certainly not trying to be insulting, but IMO while he looks good for his age he doesn't quite look young enough to pull off someone in their late twenties! This is just my opinion of course :)

Hmm true, but JDM looks way too old to pull off a post fire John! Then again they expect us to buy Samantha Smith as twenty nine year old Mary so anything is possible LOL

I'm honestly undecided about the nephilim. I keep going back and forth between thinking the Nephilim is going to be good and they'll use the mission of raising it as a way of writing Cas/Misha out of the show, or it is going to be evil and this is once again a part of the Cas gets played trope. However, I am certain that even if the nephilim is evil there is more to its actions than simple self-preservation. In my opinion, if its motives were simply about staying alive then it would have allowed Dagon to kill Castiel and the Winchester's who were arguably the greatest threats to its safety, at least prior to his conversion in Castiel's case. Then there is the fact that Dagon was portrayed as being significantly more powerful than Castiel. If it needed a protector imagine just how powerful a Nephilim powered up Dagon would have been. Ooh I'd love that! An exploration of the early post fire days would be amazing! Although wouldn't they need Matt Cohen back as young John?

I was thinking this morning about Perez' reference to the writers alternating kills. If we go by that logic if the final YED Asmodeus appears then Crowley should get the kill! After all, so far it's been Dean killed Azazel, Sam killed Ramiel and Castiel killed Dagon. That leaves one prince of hell and one of the main four yet to kill one.

+ Something Wicked + Faith -- The Benders 73 - Faith 32 - Scarecrow 30 - Pilot 12 - Devil's Trap 10 - Something Wicked 01 - The Benders They went on a hunting trip. And they haven't been home in a few days. 22. Bugs 21. Route 666 20. Dead Man's Blood 19. Nightmare 18. Hook Man 17. Wendigo 16. Hell House 15. Shadow 14. Home 13. Salvation 12. Skin 11. Provenance 10. Bloody Mary 9. Asylum 8. Phantom Traveler 7. Dead in the Water

I decided to calculate the Appearances of the cast by the end of this season! They're listed from the most to least appearances. One off guest characters weren't included :) Sam Winchester 23 Dean Winchester 23 Mary Winchester 13 Crowley 12 Mr. Ketch 12 Lucifer 11 (with multiple actors) Castiel 11 Kelly Klein 6 Mick Davies 6 Lady Toni Bevell 5 Rowena 5 Dagon 3 Jody 3 Tommy 3 Alicia Banes 2 Billie 2 Max Banes 2 Wally 2 This data was compiled using the Supernatural Wikia and the spoiler sheet compiled by IBelieveInTheLittleTreeHopper.

Hmm that is a good point! I still feel there were better options than simply knocking them out though. Especially right outside the gates of heaven, a place filled with angels who may have had a grudge against the brothers.

The Good • The Dean half of the Dean and Cas relationship in this episode. I love that he wasn't afraid to call Cas out on his crap, that he was later able to display a softer side and explain why he felt so much anger about his actions. I also loved it when he displayed insight into Castiel's perspective even while he was pissed at him. I've complained about Dean's treatment of Castiel in the past, but not with this episode! This was a great episode for showing Dean cares for Castiel! • DEAN MADE CAS A MIX TAPE. I loved that Dean wanted to share his music with the angel and show he cared for him! My interpretation of the return is slightly different to others. In my opinion Castiel knew that you keep a gift. I think he felt guilty about what he was about to do. I think he felt unworthy of such a personal gift from Dean and tried to return it as a result. • Misha's acting! As far as I am concerned this has to be one of his better episodes. In spite of the terrible writing, he still managed to add a gravitas to his performance that allowed us to feel a certain sympathy for Cas as he carried out atrocious actions. Highlights include the scene where he confesses to Dean he needed to return with a win and the scene where he tells Kelly he isn't someone she ought to put her faith in. • The ambiguity surrounding Lucifer's baby! I'm honesty undecided about its allegiance. If he is indeed evil I am curious to find out what the plan is! It must be based on more than just self preservation, as he would have lived had he allowed Dagon to kill Cas and take Kelly again. • I love that Castiel couldn't kill Kelly when he reached her with the Colt in hand. The Castiel of season eight and earlier would have done so, after great difficulty. • I must confess the "W.W.C.D" line made me laugh. Nice non intrusive throwback to the ghostfacers and the earlier day of the show. The Bad • What exactly was Dagon's plan? If the angels, demons and humans are dead what exactly is she, Lucifer, and baby ruling over? That came off as a bit of a plot hole to me. • The grace extraction spell as the solution was so predictable. Many viewers had already speculated that would be the solution, and the boys look like idiots for not thinking of it before now. • The destruction of the colt! Why bring back an item so significant to the show only to have it destroyed in the middle of a run of the mill battle! Plus if it was so easy to destroy why didn't the likes of Azazel do it sooner? Especially after he had been warned it would be use to kill him during the events of In the Beginning. The Ugly • The Castiel end of his relationship with Dean and Sam. I understand his motives, but his actions were selfish and completely unnecessary. He could have asked them for the colt. He did not need to lie and steal them. He could have just teleported out with Kelly. He did not need to leave them vulnerable and in the vicinity of numerous angels, many of whom would love to kill them! Whether he is proven right or wrong in the end doesn't matter to me! His actions here were still appalling. • Castiel knew that she wouldn't survive giving birth. How exactly did Isham trick him into going after Lily's daughter then? Ugh, these writers really do insist on making him look as bad as possible.

In all honesty I think Jared and Jensen's workload this season is similar to the work load of leads on most other shows. I think it just happens to be jarring to many fans for two main reasons. 1) Supernatural was not an ensemble show in its earlier years. It was unique in the sense that it had only two leads and they appeared in practically every scene of every episode. The only other show I've watched that could be considered comparable is the X Files. Therefore, the shift to an ensemble style, as with any other format change on a show, was always going to be a shock to fans and unpopular with those who liked things as they were. 2) Due to the shows origins Jared and Jensen lack consistent "co stars" as a part of this new ensemble style of storytelling. Some episodes its Mark and Misha, other episodes it's characters related to the shows current main storyline such as Mary, Ketch and Mick, other episodes it's less frequently used recurring character such as Jody and Claire, others it's the PIP of the week. As a result, it can be harder for many in the audience to get invested in these characters because we aren't following their struggles from week to week. We aren't getting to watch them grow in the way we get to see the secondary leads on most other shows. Therefore, their frequent use throughout an episode may be grating to viewers who do not care about them and want to get back to the characters they do care for i.e. Sam and Dean.

This is why I find myself getting irritated when I read fans presuming to speak on behalf of "the fans" and what "the fans want". The Supernatural fandom is a large and varied one, the thoughts and feelings of which can not be summed up in one sweeping statement. Plus, I find myself asking where exactly do these people get their information from? Have they taken a poll to record fandom preferences? Have they reached out and spoken to every fan of the show in order to assess the wants of the fandom? I certainly wasn't consulted in such a survey and therefore find it very presumptive for someone to state what I as a fan want, or do I not count as a fan if I don't want whatever it is a user is telling us "the fans" want. So my ultimate question is; is really what "the fans want", or do they truly mean "this is what my friends and I want".