Wayward Son

Dean getting laid during a case has been known to happen. Off the top of my head; he has slept with Cassie (Route 66), Anna (Heaven and Hell) and the Amazon woman (The Slice Girls) during a case. Oh and he also had sex with Suzy (Rock and a Hard Place) during a case and it was very clear this was something he wanted and didn't just happen in the heat of the moment. So I don't see Dean going off for sex here as OOC. I don't think biases are bad in and of themselves, but I'd have to agree if taken to an extreme they can completely cloud ones view of the show. Also IMO a big problem with users on here is a tendency to transfer their preferences on to the writing team, past and present, and automatically assume if a writer doesn't share these preferences then they hate the character. For instance Dean fans on here often seem to value the myth arc and BDH moments and view the emotional side of things as second rate. Therefore if the writers prefer to focus on Deans emotions then it means "they hate the character and only see him as a lame cheerleader". On the other hand, Sam fans on here seem to prefer the emotional arcs and lament the fact Sam isn't getting those and only getting the action scenes. IMO BOTH the action and BDH moments and the emotional and introspective arcs are equally valid means of storytelling. Fans are free to like one over the other and writers are free to prefer writing one over the other. Some writers like writing character pieces, others love writing exciting action. So just because a writer may prefer writing about character pieces for Dean, but you (general you) want to see him in the action scenes doesn't mean OMG such and such hates Dean because they've a different preference to you

And I think owning up to your mistake is more important than simply saying the words “I’m sorry”, which can often be insincere and pointless on their own. But as I said Sam really can’t get anything right, damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.

Or it’s as simple as Sam owning up to something he failed to do. YMMV.

I'm actually glad that he didn't say that. Fandom would only have had to deal with the complaints of the extreme Sam hating crowd , the ones who are utterly incapable of seeing something Good in the character and have to twist everything he says as negatively as possible. All that would have got Sam was "see it's not a real apology. He's just making excusss and shifting the blame"

Demos in 18-34, 18-49 and 25-54 all remained the same. We did tick up slightly in viewers from 1,202 to 1,241 though :)

Since I don't think the show ever gave an in show explanation for the "off" behaviour you saw in Sam, Dean and Cas at the beginning of the season (is there something I'm forgetting?). Do you now put that down to bad acting choices from J2M, or do you no longer view the behaviour as off after subsequent viewings with hindsight?

I don't see Sam as overly harsh re calling out Donna's treatment of Doug. She was outright rude and condescending to Doug throughout the episode with no reason to act that way other than he had the same name as her ex. If Doug were a less tolerant guy he'd have had every right to quit or report her behaviour IMO. Of course my opinion might be influenced by the scene of Doug and Donna with the initially unconscious bunny, which I know Sam wasn't there for. Shit like her trying to make him feel bad for wanting to help lift his unconscious body into the car and then yelling at him to help moments later is a pet peeve of mine. Friends of mine have experienced more mundane versions of stuff like that and it's fricking annoying.

It was a commentary on fandom in general rather than just users on here or specific individuals. And most of what you described (rescuing Dean from hell, falling as a result of his decision to rebel for humanity, leading the angel war, being human etc are all things that predate Dabb's tenure as show runner. I am pretty pleased with how the character was used under Kripke and Carver, less fond of his use during the Gamble tenure and outright loathe the Dabb era Castiel. As I said I know of several Cas fans who have left fandom / watching the show over the past few years due to the characters treatment under Dabb. He doesn't get to do anything anymore except act as the perpetual screw up in order to drive the narrative forward and/or to get him off our screens for a while. The only positive Cas related things I see these days are Destiel related things like "aww, he said I love you to Dean/ the Winchesters" or "Aw, Dean made Cas a mix tap". There's never any real comments about how much of a bad ass Cas is or how wonderful he is in his own right. The Castiel who could kick ass and actually learn from his mistake died when Carver died and all we have left now is the perpetual screw up. As I've said before last season was the first time I actually found myself thinking "just write him out already. A decent send off beats what they're doing now" and s13 thus far has done little to change that. -waves to the fellow Cas fan- Sadly, though IMO a lot of the things that made Cas great have been banished by Dabb and Co.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. It is always interesting to hear from someone who was actually there :)

Honestly. I've become convinced there are very few people who are legitimately fans of Castiel as an individual. I'm increasingly getting the impression that most only see him as one half of a ship (Destiel) and as long as they get the occasional cute Dean scene to squee over they really don't care how stupid and pointless he is made to look outside of those scenes. A lot of the big name Cas fans I remember from earlier seasons have stopped watching and it increasingly feels like only those who care about him within the context of Destiel remain. On a related note, I'm increasingly finding myself becoming resentful of Dean and Cas scenes. These days they seem to exist solely to make Cas look even worse when he does the dumb and stupid things the writers decide he needs to do. Take The Future for instance. Dean opens up to Cas and they have what appears to be a good scene. Then ten minutes later in the episode it turns out Cas was actually only using Dean to steal the colt and he knocks them out. The scene feels like a cheap manipulation to make Cas look worse in a "aw poor Dean! He cares so much about Cas and Cas goes and steals from him / lies / insert whatever Cas does here". This isn't an anti-Dean sentiment. I think Dean is shown to mean what he says in these scenes. This is just frustration on how the scenes IMO are used for emotional manipulation and to make Cas look even worse.

Because Dabb considers Castiel to be a complete and utter moron and utterly useless. As he has repeatedly shown through his portrayal of Cas and of course had multiple characters speak of how he’s just “the sidekick” and doesn’t do anything. Welcome to the Dabb portrays Cas horribly club -hands cookie-

I don't think that is what the episode was trying to communicate. Dean clearly states to Sam "You've always wanted to see that house!" My understanding of events was as follows: - Sam is on the internet looking through newspapers for signs of a case (as we have seen the brothers do in numerous episodes throughout the show) - He spots an article about the murders at the Lizzie Borden house in one of these papers and thinks there is a case for them there. - He informs Dean and Dean starts to tease him about only wanting to go due to his serial killer fetish.

It’s still smart to have a back up plan. Many actors have gone from the leads of successful series one year to struggling to get another role the next. Not saying that’ll happen to Jensen, but it would be foolish for anyone in the acting world to take anything beyond their current acting role for granted.

No, sorry, I think Asmodeus is a very temporary one season (if even) character. I think after both his demise and Michael has been dealt with Lucifer will become king of hell and something of a frenemy. I think Lucifer was initially brought back to sire Jack and play a key role in the fight against AU Michael. Lucifer having a role in that fight makes some sense since Lucifer vs Michael was such a big thing back in the day. I’m speculating that when they decided they couldn’t keep all 4 as regulars they decided to drop Mark S and give Lucifer Crowley’s role as king and frenemy IN ADDITION to their existing plans for him.

At the moment yes! Although I don’t expect Asmodeus to possess the same longevity as Crowley. I’d say he’ll be dead by the end of this season and Lucifer will go back to being king of hell. As you said I think Lucifer was always going to be a thing due to the nephilim storyline. I just think that ultimately the writers are going to use him to replace Crowley’s role as king of hell and frenemy in addition to the importance he’ll hold in the Jack storyline as Jack’s father and the enemy of Lucifer. A bit like Dabb: “Hmm we cant afford all four of them! I know... Let’s make Lucifer / Mark P replace Crowley / Mark S as king of hell and frenemy of the boys IN ADDITION to what we already had planned for him” On the other hand, Jack simply can’t take over Castiel’s role as their best friend and closest supernatural ally. Unlike Lucifer who already has his own history with the brothers Jack has no history of them that could remotely recreate that dynamic so Cas was safe. However, a few seasons from now when the brothers have gotten to know Jack and truly formed bonds with him.. that could change. ETA: @catrox14 . So basically I think it was budget cuts that prevented them from using all four as regulars this season. Alexander and Mark P were definitely getting promotions so they used storyline considerations to help them decide who out of Misha and Mark S was getting the cut and ultimately that was Mark S.

Ah OK I think I understand now! I think I’m somewhere in between you both. I agree with @MysteryGuest that it was likely a budget related issue. I think in an ideal world we’d have a cast of Jared (lead) , Jensen (lead), Mark S, Alexander, Mark P and Misha. However, this isn’t an ideal world and the network was only prepared to pay for three regulars. Then I think storyline considerations came into it so I also agree with @catrox14 that it was a factor. I think at this point they likely decided Mark S / Crowley would be the one cut because his role as a ruler of hell and frenemy would be the most easily replaced. Lucifer already has history with the boys and given a common goal (destroying Michael) they can elevate him to a frenemy they’ve a long complicated messed up history with. On the other hand, they’ve only met Jack. They’re only getting to know each other and there is simply no way Jack can become the boys best friend the way Castiel is at the moment.

I’m gonna reply in the Superacting thread.

I did reference both long term and short term in my reply? I said I wouldn’t mind if it was short term like it was with Bobby or Sam. I just don’t want to see it long term. And an action can be considered Mary Stu like (in this case being able to magically control an archangel for a long period of time when everyone else has only been able to control them for a few minutes at most) without it meaning the whole character is a Mary Sue.

They did but Mark Pellegrino was only promoted during episode 15 and he only appeared in 5 episodes* as opposed to the 11-13 a regular normally appears in. This is the first season to feature three series regulars for the entire season. Without confirmation we can never truly know whether Sheppard got the cut due to the promotion of Pellegrino or Calvert. I would tend to agree with @catrox14 that he was likely cut for Pellegrino as Lucifer has taken over Crowley’s role in the narrative i.e. the antagonist / frenemy. But as I said none of us are likely to ever truly know. * The character of Lucifer did appear in more than 5 episodes of S12, but he was portrayed by other actors, who as guest stars rather than regulars, would have cost considerably less during those appearances.

IMO it depends on what fans like yourself are talking about when they talk about Dean wrestling control from Michael. So far we’ve seen possesses be able to take over for seconds or a few minutes at Best. Bobby took over for the few seconds it took to stab himself instead of Dean or Sam just long to jump in the cage. So if Dean only wrestled control for the few seconds or minutes needed to do a specific task then sure. But I don’t want to see Dean being some super Mary Sue who can have full control over Michael for multiple episodes. Plus, I’m just not a fan of long term possessions. There’s a reason I hated the Gadreel storyline or the Casifier storyline.

Or as I speculated in the past they increased his per episode pay, but decreased his appearances resulting in Misha seeing no extra money in his bank account. In other words last year he got say $260,000 for eleven episodes instead of $260,000 for 13. It sounds to me like you guys are saying basically the same thing? The show couldn’t afford to pay for four regulars (I’m not counting J2 who are in a category of their own). @catrox14 is just adding to that and stating they believe Sheppard was let go in order to allow Pellegrino to become a regular since they couldn’t afford both of them?

I think I remember this article being discussed on here a while back. I think most of us were sceptical about the difference due to the fact that Jared and Jensen have always stated they go to negotiation tables together and earn the same as a result. Jensen would only receive extra for directing the individual episodes he directs rather than every episode. So he would have been paid extra for 11x03, but not for any other season 11 episode. The article itself states the figure for Jared comes from different sources so based on J2s words the Jared salary is probably out of date and they both get paid 175k now. Misha’s salary sounds about right to me though. I figured it’d be miniscule compared to J2s.

When fans complain about the lack of rock music in recent years maybe that’s where that money went... covering J2’s inflated salary and possibly Misha’s salary. Either way I’d be surprised if Misha makes even half of J2s salary, but I wonder how it works with the regulars. For instance does Misha make more due to being a regular for five years now while Mark is only on his second season and Alexander his first, or are they all just paid equal.

I’m nosy and would love to know how much each of the regulars make, past and present, and how they relate to each other. I think all we know for definite is the fact that J2 make $175k per episode? Which makes them EXTREMELY expensive by CW standards.

Yeah Alexander, Mark P and Misha are the only regulars and appear in that order in the credits. I don’t blame you for thinking she was a regular @Aeryn13 since she was in more episodes than Mark S and Misha last season.