RealReality

@drivethroo wow, you have like a photographic memory! Good on you, I can barely remember where I put my car keys. Every season up until the current one I've enjoyed Gizelle. She is funny, and she can kinda make something out of nothing. I still remember her livening up Monique's (kinda boring) lakehouse trip by having a pageant off, which was fun. She doesn't have a storyline and I'm not entirely sure she needs one. She and Karen remind me of Meryl Streep and Goldie Hawn in Death Becomes Her. And as much as I roll my eyes at Karen, I've enjoyed her this season even though I think her insistence that Gizelle wished Ray dead was ridiculous. But she has managed to make this dumb candle line drama fairly amusing. I agree with your hypothetical about Ashley. I think she would dig into Wendy or Mia. But maybe she goes at Karen....starts her own candle line? Karen can be easy pickings for someone like Ashley, but I think someone like Mia would be even easier. And it would be interesting to see the battle of the proxies....the "but I'm a mom" versus "but I had a bad childhood". Wendy would be too quick for Ashley, but I'm sure Ashley could use her standard dog whistles.

So then there are exceptions for people who have committed transgressions against cast members? Like, say a mom, who, by mias own account treated her poorly and continues to do so? Or is this "exception" only applicable to husbands? And the point still stands that there was not the level of outrage for comments levied against Eddie, Ray and about moniques baby and calls for a dragging as there has been when candace made an offhand comment that was a take on a yo momma joke.

It was a take on a yo momma joke. Candace took what Mia said, simply put a yo momma before it and made the comment. She did not know mias mother so it wasn't an insult specific to her mother. However, Mia likely knew about the strained relationship between candace and her mother from watching past seasons of the show and knowingly used candaces mother as a tool to hurt her and tear her down. So, at worst, both Mia and candace used the others mother to hurt the other. However, in candace's case it was a simple takw on a yo momma joke that, since she didn't know mias mother, she likely didn't have the deep intent people are ascribing to it. While Mia did.

Do you watch Dateline too? Because this is almost the first thing I thought of. Lisa will mysteriously be "at church" when it happens. Personally, I think she is going to go for some auto-erotic asphyxiation gone wrong when he was in the straitjacket and couldn't get out. What better way to make sure the family quickly covers it up out of shame!

Every single time they talk about milking the prostate, I immediately imagine someone milking a cow. I know its not the same, its just what I think of. LOL. But yes, Lisa is truly lazy, like does he need it milked multiple times a day? I wonder how many days of "lovin'" Stan needs to pay for her to get rid of those awful extensions?

Every time she says something other than being extremely nice, she is called aggressive, extra, insulting and is accused of saying something worthy of a beating. Anytime she stands up for herself. Can you think of a time, this season, where she has clapped back and the chorus hasn't been "she did too much!" "she is asking for a beating!" I mean, MAYBE when she said Mia was handsome and had large hands and feet, but I'm pretty sure she said that in her confessional and not in response to anything Mia said (except in the most recent episode, where, AGAIN she was accused of saying too much). Anytime Candiace says anything in her defense, its almost immediately labelled as drag worthy, uncalled for, unhinged, volatile, etc, etc. I think all of these women are generally doing the same thing on the show, I don't think Candiace is particularly better or worse than most. And perhaps maybe slightly better because she is often responding to someone else, and as someone else so sagely put it, you can't light a match and control how high the flames go. If someone is coming at Candace, then I don't think she is under any obligation to extend them kindness and consideration. She perhaps should do that because she wants a career outside of this show, and out of all the HW on the show, she has the best shot at it. But far bigger people have been cancelled for less. But physically attacking someone for words will always be a bright line for me, thats not what this show is about and I think that if the franchise wants to go that way you need to do like Bad Girls Club and cast women who are physical equals so that they all have the same ability to fight, and therefore, feel the same freedom to talk.

I'm refreshed, and I see that I used to the word abhorrent to describe table flipping, which hardly seems like an endorsement or even me saying that table flipping is "okay." Further, I'd say that since I included lettuce throwing and waving around a butter knife, if you wanted to make a statement about what I feel is physically aggressive, it would make more sense to include all three. But, thanks anyways!

Okay, so then where was the outrage when Ashley shit talked Ray or said that Ray needed to be careful about dropping the soap in prison (a clear prison rape reference). Ray has never involved himself in the women's drama and has been nothing but the soul of kindness and courtesy to Ashley. Jamal, for as much of a toad as he is and was, was shit talked on the show and never was involved in the women's business. I don't think he ever filmed a scene with the other women. Ashley came for Juan's fidelity and finances, despite the fact that he almost fastidiously keeps himself out of the women's business. Gizelle came for Eddie's fidelity, and the overwhelming chorus was "well, yeah, its not on the show, but its on a blog so what do you expect." Even though Eddie has never been involved in the women's business. Gizelle came for Ray, who has never been anything other than nice to her with that Uncle Ben shirt. Even he seemed a little taken aback at the reunion, as he said "I thought Gizelle and I were cool" Gizelle came for Moniques baby, by putting the rumor out there that Monique had cheated with her trainer and that the baby was the trainer's. I cannot remember if Gizelle got the second part out, but that was clearly the context even if she didn't say it directly. So, it doesn't seem like "family is off limits" really applies on this franchise. It really seems like the rule only applies to Candace. And frankly, what Candace said, which was a take on a 'yo momma joke was said without knowing the woman in question, so it wasn't like she knew that Mia's mother had a complicated history of drug use and abuse and then made a comment about her being low budget, she simply took the comment Mia made about her shoot being low budget, added a generic "yo momma" to it and made the comment.

I dont agree with the "proof is in the pudding" argument. Just because a beating hasn't happened to anyone else doesn't mean that what they have said or their behavior is any better. But saying that candaxe goes from 0-100 is something I also disagree with. She quite often is calm and collected. If you look at the situation with mia, in the bedroom she wasn't at 100. She was calmly explaining to Mia why she was upset and made some lightly shady comments. And Mia ratcheted it up with her fake phone call and loudly calling everyone a broke bitch. At gizelles event she didn't automatically go to 100. She was fairly calm and collected and Mia kept going at it. So while candace cuts deeper she isn't going from 0-100. Not sure what insulting extra means but I don't think that what candace has said is so out of pocket when compared to the other women. "Insultingly extra" would, to me, be the uncle Ben shirt gizelle wore I dont characterize everything candace says as a joke, but her "yo momma" comment was such a clear and obvious take on a 'yo momma joke. It was very clearly not specifically about mias mother, as she had never met nor knew anything about mias mother when she made the comment and 'yo momma jokes are fairly well known. So a comment based on a joke genre is juvenile but not grounds for pearl clutching, vapors, smelling salts and fainting couches. And it certainly shouldn't be when compared to Ashley talking about the dried up penis of karens husband.....a man who she HAS met and showed her nothing but kindness.

I don't consider lettuce throwing physically aggressive either. So, I'm not sure whose measuring stick you're referencing, but it isn't mine.

"Offensive" is highly subjective, so it can be anything. So if you're looking not to say something "offensive" because you're gonna get a beating you cannot say anything, particularly on this platform where these women say all sorts of mean things to each other. What all this boils down to is don't physically attack people because they use words you don't like. If you're so mad that you want to physically attack, then walk away. If you cannot use your words, walk away. That responsibility is on the person who physically attacks, not the person using their words. These are society's rules for a very good reason. Because "offensive" "mean" and "insulting" are very subjective terms, particularly where people are apparently moved to violence by jokes. When you set up a society where people can claim that their violence is justified because the other person was a super meanie, or was offensive and insulting, then you have a dangerous precedent.

But I think you can compare the two, Candace isn't aggressive and she says mean things. This applies to everyone on the show, Candace just does it better. I'm sure the two women fighting over a candle in Ross would each say the other one should have known when to shut the hell up and walk away because it was common sense. Everyone who gets physically violent has an excuse and how the other person should have known not to do "xy and z" that was going to set them off. Women out in the streets fighting in a WalMart in front of their kids have the same excuse. "you should have known to shut the hell up" People who get violent always have an excuse as to why its not their fault, and you shouldn't have done this, you shouldn't have looked at them, you shouldn't have disrespected them by taking that last candle, you shouldn't have said this, you shouldn't have looked like that. Which is why most society has a bright line, because the justifications for violence are subjective. I'm sure Ike could have told you plenty reasons why Tina had it coming.

Isolated incidents prove the general rule that this franchise is not about physically attacking other castmembers for saying things you don't like. Even if those thing are outrageous. I don't count lettuce throwing and wine throwing as physical attacks, the same way I don't consider the affair of the butter knife a physical attack. And flipping a table, as abhorrent as it is, is not the same as physically attacking another castmember. And there is not a notion, even in the real world that if you push someone too far with words, physical attack is an acceptable response. This isn't acceptable in the workplace, this isn't acceptable in public, this would even be jarring for most people to hear about in a domestic situation. I don't care how much shit a woman is talking to a man, most anyone who hears that he hauled off and hit her is going to find that an unacceptable response. And at least in my case, the reverse would be true as well. No matter how much shit a man is talking to you, hauling off and hitting him i an unacceptable response.

The point about lighting a match seems to suggest that who starts the fight is important as you cannot be mad about how high the flames go when you light the match or start the fight, which Candace did not do either time. What are these unspoken agreements? Not to involve family members who aren't castmembers? Because people have talked shit about Ray, who is not a castmember but was on the show. What is the general format? Your statement that "knowingly and purposely introduces compromising antics that will escalate conflict into a more dire (physical) exchange." seems nebulous and vague, what are compromising antics that escalate conflict? Because I certainly think that Robyn running after Monique in the street and daring her to "drag her" would qualify as an antic that would escalate conflict into a more dire and physical exchange, but I heard nary a word about it. I would think that Robyn putting her fingers in Ashley's face when she came into OZ wuld qualify as an antic that would escalate conflict into a more dire and physical exchange, but I never heard much feedback about that. And so, it makes me wonder if different rules are applied to what some castmembers.

The first words out of Gizelles mouth to Wendy were instigating and shady. You literally just said that you wanted to deny the woman use of your bathroom when you invited her to your house! Ashley had a bathroom and was willing to share the bathroom, so all the dramatics were for nothing, though I agree that had Gizelle been even mildly pleasant, Wendy would have been more accommodating. Robyn and Gizelle should have stayed home. Wendy didn't seem to try to force them into coming and I understand why. Pushing people to come to something they don't want to be at makes them and everyone else miserable.

OK, but then by those rules you can never say or do anything because of the fear that a person would fly off the handle. You can push the wrong button for some people by just sitting on the bus and looking out the window. Does that mean you shouldn't get on the bus or you shouldn't look out the window? I don't think so, but by your logic, you should, because you cannot judge how a person reacts to anything so you should do nothing. This is why the onus should be on the person who does the physical attacking, because if you try to deal with the sensitivities of thin skinned people then no one can ever say anything or do anything. People who physically attack always have "a reason" Two women coming to blows over the last candle in the clearance section in Ross have "a reason" why they aren't at fault and the other woman just shouldn't have done or said "x,y and z" Trying to avoid their reaction by playing into "their reasons" is a fools errand because no matter what, they will make one up to justify their lack of self-control.

Disagree, this show isn't bad girls club or love and hip hop. This entire franchise hasn't been sold as one where physically fighting is an acceptable response to verbal annoyance. Were this bad girls club or even love and hip hop, I could see the point, but this isn't. It would be like someone getting beaten up on Big Brother for shit talking, it may have happened, but thats not really what the franchise is known for. In HW, your words are supposed to be your weapon and all of the women are supposed to shit talk. There isn't some Emily Post etiquette rulebook of what they can and cannot say, but there is a notion that physical attacks against other castmembers are unacceptable or an expected response. And this makes sense because it would have such a chilling effect.

But this really seems to be what everyone else does to Candace. "well, yeah, I just threw a little shade and you came for my throat! Unfair!" But the person who threw the shade lit the match in the first place and then when Candace responds by verbally laying them out, they cry, complain and whine about it. Candace didn't start that conflict with Mia, Mia started that and then got mad when Candace responded. Candace didn't start with Ashley at the table, Ashley started that, and then got mad when Candace responded.

1) But Candace did not make her 'yo momma joke in mixed company, she made it around all of the other women. 2) Candace did not say anything in front of or around Mia's momma. 3) There was literally a national TV show on MTV called "Yo Momma" hosted by Wilmer Valderamma. Please note that in the clip below, not only are the "yo momma" jokes nationally broadcast, but the guys mother is literally in the audience and is not even slightly phased or upset by the jokes. You can say that "well, those are younger guys and not a woman in her 30s" but I think that a difference without a distinction, because the idea seems to be that 'yo momma jokes are just so terrible that no 30+ year old woman would be saying one on national TV., as they are clearly something so terrible that people have been beaten for making such a joke. However, we've seen these women, even the women of Potomac engage in much worse behavior and commentary towards each other than a 'yo momma joke on national TV.....and the 'yo momma jokes do not seem to be that serious. And while MTV may be a shit parade of a network, but like any network they try to avoid bad publicity and press when they can (see attempts to enforce contractual clauses by the network about arbitration and NDAs). I also think Wilmer Vladeramma (sp) at the time had his own reputation and career. So, I do not think that either MTV OR Wilmer would have agreed to a show that was based on something that routinely got children beaten to a pulp.

First, I don't think Candace "bashed" Mia's mom, she told a 'yo momma joke. However, both joking and "bashing" technically fall into the realm of discussion, which is defined as "a conversation or debate about a certain topic." If you're talking about someones mother, be it a "bashing" or a "joke" it would fall into the realm of a conversation, since you are directing the comment towards another person and the other person has the ability to respond.

This is an interesting point. I could see that being the case. Though I also wonder if there is an element, as you said, of friendship. Despite being introduced on the show as Ashley's friend (I actually rewatched it on Hulu, because when someone else said it I was like "NOOOOOOOO") I don't think Candace and Ashley were ever really friends and I think both would admit that they just don't like each other. But perhaps that also has something to do with their different upbringing and a lack of shared experiences. Even though both are pageant girls, I imagine their impetus for getting into it and experience on the circuit were different. With Mia, she was never her friend and she does seem to see Mia as beneath her. The one person who feeds into that the most is Mia. But, you're right. Candiace never really dug into Karen, Gizelle, Robyn, Wendy or even Katie.

So, I'm rewatching episode 13, at the point I would consider the genesis of the Mia/Candace fight. I don't think Candace is particularly volatile. Mia comes in and Candace explains that the reason why she made the momma comment was because of Mia called her stuff low budget and went to her mother to shit talk. Mia immediately does what Mia does and immediately gaslights and denies any accountability. Because she is a CEO, she was just trying to see who was in charge, Candace should take it as constructive criticism, she was just trying to "get to know" Dorothy, and none of that really passes the stink test. Even Askale points out that everytime Mia says anything she brings it back to her non-existent business experience and its kinda ridiculous. Wendy points out that she will defend Mia because she knows what its like to have "two on one" and Candace rightfully points out that she saved Mia from the wrath of Gizelle and Robyn who were both ready to read her down at Candace's trip. Then Mia takes a "call" from her "rich, boss babe, upscale friend" and proceeds to loudly refer to everyone else as being "broke bitches" who could never "understand her" Candace calls after her with another 'yo momma joke and calls her a nightcrawler. But to me, this isn't a 0-100 response in light of the fact that Mia basically just called everyone else a broke bitch who cannot afford to understand her. This is, to me seems more like mutual combatants since syrupy gaslighting seems as much as using your words to fight. And I only say any of this because "volatile" was the same charge thrown at Wendy after three days of being picked apart and concern trolled by like four people. But at that point, I didn't think Wendy's reaction was over the top either.

He is the classic john who doesn't want to admit he is a john. He is just "helping" a girl with rent and "tuition" - I think those are the niceties used on sugardaddy sites so the guy doesn't have to admit that he has to pay for sex. If he would just admit that their relationship is transactional, Lisa wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Because right now her only argument is that as her "man" Stan should be buying her things, but not expecting sex. If Stan was just like "yeah, I want to pay you for sex but I also like having you around" Lisa really wouldn't have any moral high ground real or fictional.

WORLDSTAR!

I still think its possible...maybe probable that Brittney and Canaan embezzled those donations. How better to hide her own financial shenanigans than to blame a guy who has never once been on camera to defend himself? We have never heard Robert's side of the story, only Brittney and her "friend/business partner" characterizing him as a thief and drug addict. Her story doesn't make any sense to me, they handed a guy 80k in cash because they couldn't be on the account because this is Nevada. Nevermind that that doesn't sound particularly true, people set up trusts and LLCs all the time and that entity can have an account. OR, you can have your account in another state. Why did the money have to stay in Nevada or come from Nevada? None of this makes sense. I'd be extremely interested to see the details of any lawsuit Brittney files against Robert, and any counterclaims of affirmative defenses he has against her. I don't think her hands are clean.